Being married to a Baha'i, I have a done a lot of reading of the various writings. My wife has taken me to several firesides since she is unable to answer my questions, but I have run into the wall of the doctrine that God is beyond our ability to know, except in the person of a Manifestation. Since I was born in 1944 that means that I missed Him by about a hundred years. Regardless of the dispensation doctrine, I am not comfortable about making a religion about anyone whether it be Buddha, Jesus, or Baha'u'lla, and waiting for about 850 years is not possible. After all, Jesus did say (in Aramaic) something to the effect of - no man may come unto the Father, or know God, but by me. Christians have made a religion of that, but the fact is that Jesus said that while he was a living Manifestation here in the world. Although the grace he had to help people to know God undoubtedly was passed on to his disciples, over time the distortions of religion dissipated that. That was why Muhammed and Baha'u'lla were sent.

Now, my wife tells me that he enjoined people to meditate, but did not teach a method. His writings are proof of his own mystical experience. Clearly he emmanated a presence that was extraordinary, but it seems that Baha'is don't believe that they can experience God.

Here are a few quotes that I have gleaned from the tablets:

Lawh-i-Hikmat
Know thou … that the Word of God is higher and far superior to that which the senses can perceive, for it is sanctified from any property or substance. It transcendeth the limitations of known elements and is exalted above all the essential and recognized substances. It became manifest without any syllable or sound and is none but the Command of God which pervadeth all created things. It hath never been withheld from the world of being. It is God’s all-pervasive grace, from which all grace doth emanate.

Kitáb-i-Íqán
On their tongue the mention of God hath become an empty name; in their midst His Holy Word a dead letter. Such is the sway of their desires, that the lamp of conscience and reason hath been quenched in their hearts, and this although the fingers of divine power have unlocked the portals of the knowledge of God, and the light of divine knowledge and heavenly grace hath illumined and inspired the essence of all created things, in such wise that in each and every thing a door of knowledge hath been opened, and within every atom traces of the sun hath been made manifest. And yet, in spite of all these manifold revelations of divine knowledge, which have encompassed the world, they still vainly imagine the door of knowledge to be closed, and the showers of mercy to be stilled. Clinging unto idle fancy, they have strayed far from the `Urvatuíl-Vuthqá of divine knowledge. Their hearts seem not to be inclined to knowledge and the door thereof, neither think they of its manifestations, inasmuch as in idle fancy they have found the door that leadeth unto earthly riches, whereas in the manifestation of the Revealer of knowledge they find naught but the call to self-sacrifice. No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth.

Kalimat-i-Firdawsiyyih
By holding fast unto names they deprive themselves of the inner reality and by clinging to vain imaginings they are kept back from the Dayspring of heavenly signs.

Bayan: God’s intention is to make Himself known to you, that You may not remain ignorant of Him in anything.

Commentary:
The Word of God transcends limitations because it is infinite and has no beginning or end, even as God is infinite. It is all-pervasive and as such it is within us and we are within its unity. The senses cannot perceive it, yet by turning the senses within, it can be experienced. This “Word” is not a word that can be uttered, written, imagined, or thought, yet it can be known. The Word of God is singular, even as God is one. The true name of God is this Word of God. God is not separate from His Holy Name. The Word of God is the true Greatest Name and being conscious of it bestows the true Greatest Peace. The Word of God is not a concept or belief, it is absolute reality. The Word of God is not in any scripture, nor is it any scripture. The Holy Name of God is not the name or title of any avatar, manifestation, or prophet of God, but its revelation to others and preparation of humanity for that knowledge has always been their service. The Word is the primordial essence of all creation. In it alone is perfect unity.

Those who believe that God is beyond knowing prevent themselves from experiencing what He would reveal of His infinity. They limit God’s ability to reveal Himself by limiting themselves. Those who cannot accept that God can reveal Himself through a messenger, fail to recognize the messenger as such. Those who believe “the door of knowledge to be closed” close the door themselves. Those who become attached to their concepts and beliefs about messengers of the past, fail to recognize the messenger(s) of the present. Their religions cloud their perception. Their concepts limit their ability to perceive. “No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth,” even his concepts of God.

The Baha'i Faith is a very positive force in the world, but it does not satisfy the need to know God. All the beautiful words describing the glory of God do not satisfy the yearning to know God that they create. Contemplation of the writings is no true meditation. Meditation is not what you think or imagine.

Welcome Reuben to the Baha'i Forum ... It's truly evidence of divine providence that you posted here as we are usually so swamped with pornography so welcoem anyway..

I also wanted to applaud you for reading the Writings and trying to make some sense out of them for yourself.. Baha'is believe in a principle you may be aware of called independent investigation of truth and not just accepting something because everyone else does around you.

Now your concern about experiencing God is a very important one and one that I think will serve to motivate you to further explore that issue! You know that the purpose of our existence is to know and worship God? It is clear in our Short Obligatory Prayer:

I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

2 There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.


It is also true that we Baha'is believe that the ultimate progress a human soul can make is to come into the presence of God...

I believe an excerpt from "Ten Days in the Light of Akka" explains this through something Abdul-Baha said:

Then He continued, “Do everything in your power to help the poor and needy. Serve God in this way. The poor are the trust of God. Give the Message to every listening soul. Give them whatever they can take of it. In Persia there was a man who could not read or write, yet he was the cause of guidance to many great men in this Truth by his pure love of God. If you will turn to God, He will turn to you and assist you. He will make you eloquent. He will make you irresistible by His Wisdom. The tongue speaks from the heart, and if you are sincere, God will speak for you. Help and assist others to see this Truth as you do. Be their guide and helper. This Message is vital to young and old. In it the young must make more progress and bring forth more fruit than the old, just as young and vigorous trees yield the most fruit to the gardener. Christ said, 'Ye shall know the tree by its fruits,' meaning whether the fruits be good or bad, much or little. Those who are born of the Spirit have all the Divine qualities of growth. Without these qualities they are nothing but mere men and women; they are not spiritually alive; they are without the power of growth. Christ said they were 'dead.' Let all your thoughts be upon this so that the believers and others will know that you have the Spiritual Spring within your soul and have attained a newness of life. This is complete happiness, the only Peace. After awhile you will realize that you have been in the Presence of the Blessed Perfection. You are always in the Presence of God. Open the windows of your soul so His Presence may be within you.”

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/books/tendays/development.html

One reason I think we say people can only know God through His Manifestation is that many in the spiritual life have adopted a form of solipsism, that is they believe they are the final revelation themselves and arrogate to themselves enlightenment when all that they have done is basically think that after a little progress they are now enlightened and need strive no more..and then they in turn seek disciples and followers. It can becoem an "ego" thing and is a dangerous pitfall and inhibiter of further spiritual growth.


Personally I think one of the reasons Baha'is do not have a particular form of meditation is a good thing as we Baha'is come from all religions...some have Buddhist backgrounds or have traditions of Buddhist meditation...some are Hindu and some Christian and some Sufi, etc. etc. So we are not exclusive when it comes to a particular style or form of meditation. It does not meean though we don't meditate...actually we are encouraged to do so but not to the extremes found in some religions. Moderation governs Baha'i spiritual life as it does our clothing and other things... We are also free to avail ourselves of any school of meditation and derive what benefits we can from that!

And now I must go...but please extend my heart felt greetings to your wife and loved ones..

- Art:wink

Being new at this forum, I posted a "quick reply" not knowing that it wouldn't be posted. That, not being in the spirit of a forum as there are other readers, requires this reply:

The most pertinent part of the previous post is:
"One reason I think we say people can only know God through His Manifestation is that many in the spiritual life have adopted a form of solipsism, that is they believe they are the final revelation themselves and arrogate to themselves enlightenment when all that they have done is basically think that after a little progress they are now enlightened and need strive no more .. and then they in turn seek disciples and followers. It can become an "ego" thing and is a dangerous pitfall and inhibiter of further spiritual growth."

I had to look up solipsism, not being as erudite as arthra, and agree since historically there have been many who, after catching a glimpse of only the “hindmost parts”, have believed themselves to have become enlightened. This has been most evident amongst Gnostics, Sufis, and Hindus. The last of whom after gaining some spiritual powers, or siddhis, set themselves up as gurus. That does not mean that there haven’t been or aren’t true gurus. For example the founder of the Sikh religion, Guru Nanak, seems to have been a Sat Guru. As it is, the Sikhs only have the Guru Granth Sahib to guide them now. In Shi’a Islam, the expectation of the Imam Madhi, or Qa’im, has set the stage for many claimants. Now, I am speaking of those who were sincere, not those who did so for power.

The original Sheikhi doctrine was that there is always a living intermediary between God, the spiritual Imam, and the world. This intermediary, or gate, did not necessarily have to be a Prophet or Manifestation, but the Báb and Baha’u’lla, were from a higher plane on par with Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. Indeed, Baha’i’s were warned not to expect another of that rank for a millennium. That does not preclude the advent of those who have the grace of God to be of service in lesser capacities, just as Abdul Baha was known as the Master. God is not limited by our beliefs or concepts. Neither Muhammad nor 'Ali claimed to be other than Messenger or Imam respctively. The Báb and Baha’u’lla made it clear that they were Mirrors for the infinite that could not be limited to a mundane manifestation. That the Báb and Baha’u’lla were contemporaries shows that God is not limited to just one at a time or place. The Jain, Mahavir, and the Buddha may have been contemporaries. So, it comes down to the tenet that, “ye shall know them by their fruit.”

Religious scholars themselves have been the greatest opponents of true spiritual teachers. They have held on to their interpretations, vain imaginations, and traditions and failed to recognize the truth when it was plainly presented. And they are they who are held in high esteem in Islamic cultures.

I would appreciate replies that address the specific Baha’i writings quoted in my first post. In these are profoundly clear statements, and not my own. I may have erred in giving my take on them in that first post rather than waiting for replies, but would welcome to any reply that addresses my comments without spinning off into irrelevant and idle dispute.

Thanks Reuben for your post :) and sorry you last message wasn't posted through the "quick reply"..

You seem very well informed...

The only thing I would add is that we Baha'is believe mankind is never left alone without divine guidance... that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are no longer on this earth doesn't mean we are without guidance.

Abdul-Baha was appointed by Baha'u'llah as you probably know to be His Interpretor and successor as Center of the Faith. Abdul-Baha appointed Shoghi Effendi as the Guardian and as you probably know today we have the Universal House of Justice which is our Supreme Institution.

So in our view there has been continuous divine guidance.

Now as to your request to address the specific writings you've quoted you must know that I do not myself have a station to interpret these for you as Abdul-Baha Himself is the Interpretor of His Father's Writings and after Him the beloved Guardian Shoghi Effendi...

But I have found some exceprts that concern the Word of God that you've cited and so here they are:

Therefore if the nations of the world forsake imitations and investigate the reality underlying the revealed Word of God they will agree and become reconciled. For reality is one and not multiple.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 226)

Universal Peace is assured by Bahá'u'lláh as a fundamental accomplishment of the religion of God; that peace shall prevail among nations, governments and peoples, among religions, races and all conditions of mankind. This is one of the special characteristics of the Word of God revealed in this Manifestation.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247)

When we read the Book of God the faculty of comprehension by which we form conclusions is reason. Reason is mind. If we are not endowed with perfect reason, how can we comprehend the meanings of the Word of God? Therefore human reason, as already pointed out, is by its very nature finite and faulty in conclusions. It cannot surround the Reality Itself, the Infinite Word. Inasmuch as the source of traditions and interpretations is human reason, and human reason is faulty, how can we depend upon its findings for real knowledge?

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 253)

Likewise in the spiritual realm of intelligence and idealism there must be a center of illumination, and that center is the everlasting, ever-shining Sun, the Word of God. Its lights are the lights of reality which have shone upon humanity, illumining the realm of thought and morals, conferring the bounties of the divine world upon man. These lights are the cause of the education of souls and the source of the enlightenment of hearts, sending forth in effulgent radiance the message of the glad-tidings of the kingdom of God. In brief, the moral and ethical world and the world of spiritual regeneration are dependent for their progressive being upon that heavenly center of illumination. It gives forth the light of religion* and bestows the life of the spirit, imbues humanity with archetypal virtues and confers eternal splendors. This Sun of Reality, this center of effulgences is the prophet or Manifestation of God. Just as the phenomenal sun shines upon the material world producing life and growth, likewise the spiritual or prophetic Sun confers illumination upon the human world of thought and intelligence, and unless it rose upon the horizon of human existence the kingdom of man would become dark and extinguished.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 254)

Also and let me close with this:

You may be aware that we Baha'is in principle are not to be spinning off into "irrelevant and idle dispute," which is the reason we have the Interpretations of Abdul- Baha and defer to the Beloved Guardian.

Again my best wishes to you and your loved ones..

- Art

Whenever persons gather together in prayerful discussion of the issues at hand, the guidance of the almighty is also present.

Sincerely,
Steven J. Hathaway

Reuben,

This is a great question. If you read Baha'i Scripture you will find that it both says that you can be in the presense of God, or know God, and in other places it says that you cannot know God.

In fact, Baha'u'llah says that our purpose is to "know Thee and to love Thee." Whereas in other places He says that the door of knowledge is forever closed.

I'm sure there are many meanings behind this, but one that I have found is something that science has recently found in the 20th century: relativity. Knowledge, for humans, is relative, both scientific and religious (as Shoghi Effendi says). That is, we have knowledge of the qualities of objects but not of the essences of objects. In the same way, we have knowledge of the qualities of God, but not the direct essense of God - we have relative knowledge of God, not absolute.

Not only does this solve the contradiction, but it aligns itself with what is happening in physics right now and creates a new foundation for religion in which religion be gaurded from dogma and division. Science and religion, finally, are going to prove to the world that no one has the right to claim absolute knowledge and thus absolute power. We all worship in our relative ways the One, Absolute, Divine and Unknowable God - in that limited way we all strive forever to know and love that God as individuals and as a group, no one member of which has authoritative power over any other: we are all created from the same dust and we will all return unto it.

Regarding meditation, the is no one way to do it. Just as there is not only one type of food to eat to feed your physical body, there is not only one way to meditate to feed your soul. All the different people on the planet have developed ways to meditate and commune with God, and I think we should study them all! In addition, the Baha'i Scriptures have revealed many insights and understandings which will support and reinvigorate these disciplines.

Christians made no religion, Christ established the religion, the church ;)

Christians made no religion, Christ established the religion, the church ;)


And his second comming has established his Faith the Baha'i Faith :tongue

And his second comming has established his Faith the Baha'i Faith :tongue

Debatable. I will just say I believe that to be wrong.

Christians made no religion, Christ established the religion, the church ;)

I don't want to seem militant but I don't believe a book of the New Testament was written by Jesus himself, but rather someone else, a minimum of 20 years after Jesus died.
I'm not saying the New Testament is wrong, but I do believe what I've said to be true.

I don't want to seem militant but I don't believe a book of the New Testament was written by Jesus himself, but rather someone else, a minimum of 20 years after Jesus died.
I'm not saying the New Testament is wrong, but I do believe what I've said to be true.

Well the church (nor anyone for that matter) has claimed that Christ wrote the NT, Christ didn't write anything, he taught orally to his disciples whom recorded it in the New testament. The New testament is trusted by Bahais is it not?

Some things must be seen as symbolism. Walking on water, turning water to wine, etc.
“If religion is found contrary to the laws of science, then, it is nothing more than mere superstitions.” Abdul-Baha

Some things must be seen as symbolism. Walking on water, turning water to wine, etc.
“If religion is found contrary to the laws of science, then, it is nothing more than mere superstitions.” Abdul-Baha

Lol, thats a naturalistic claim which denies the power of God. If God's prophets cannot do miracles they cannot prove themselves. This is the whole foundation upon which Christianity is built, the ressurection which proved Jesus from God.

God is able to break natural laws he inserted into humanity. I'm sorry Abdul is completely wrong.

I don't take Baha'u'llah's injunction to be an enforced limitation. I take it to be a statement of fact - that God, in his essence is unknowable.
There is a parallel in scientific knowledge - that the universe is expanding into infinite space. Infinite space. Spend even ten seconds thinking about that. Try to visualise it. Try, moreover, to apprehend it.
You can't. It's beyond the scope if the human mind to apprehend infinity.
How much more so, then, with the creator of that infinity?
The reality of God is infinitely exalted above comprehension. What is within our scope as human beings, is to perceive the reflection of attributes of the divine in the world around us. We're walking in the garden of Eden, but we're shut out by veils in our consciousness.
I spent many years studying the Sufism of Idries Shah, and other Western teachers. It's regrettable that Sufism has such a bad name in the Baha'i faith - the contemporary Western projection is far removed from the corrupt practices of Baha'u'llah's time, which led to its disrepute. There is so much practical wisdom in contemporary Sufism, which I see as being completely in harmony with the aims of the Faith. The most important thing for the believer to attain is expansion of consciousness - by his own efforts, and by the grace of God. Then the reality of the divine is self-evident, and there are no more questions.