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Old 08-18-2014, 01:00 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by aidan View Post
You really are determined to be assertive with her. Do you not know and trust her enough to accept that she would only do something good?
Again, the only thing I'm saying is that because they would be my children too, that means that we both would have to agree to every place that they were sent to, and I would scrutinize a lot of Baha'i activities on my end.
 
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Old 08-18-2014, 01:04 PM   #42
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So she couldn't take them swimming without your say so?
 
Old 08-18-2014, 01:19 PM   #43
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So she couldn't take them swimming without your say so?
I'm only talking about different religious activities here, although I would deliberate with her about other things too. The way I'd differentiate different things is this:

-Religious worship
-Religious education

It's fine for them to go to Baha'i religious worship activities, Jewish bar mitzvahs they're invited to, Christmas masses, etc.

I'd take a closer look, though, at any religiously run education program. Education implies something factual, whereas a religious service teaches belief. I would take a closer look at ALL classes no matter who runs them.

Last edited by SmilingSkeptic; 08-24-2014 at 10:27 PM.
 
Old 08-18-2014, 01:49 PM   #44
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Wow respect for your girlfriend. It would extremely difficult if you cannot educate your children in the most beautiful thing a person can have; the Faith.
 
Old 08-18-2014, 02:21 PM   #45
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Wow respect for your girlfriend. It would extremely difficult if you cannot educate your children in the most beautiful thing a person can have; the Faith.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here?
 
Old 08-19-2014, 02:53 AM   #46
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What I wrote is quite clear isn't it?
 
Old 08-19-2014, 08:35 AM   #47
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Again dear friend SmilingSkeptic, if I and others are starting to feel you are being controlling, think about it please.

A controlling person is not a loving person.

Just trying to make you face the possibility of your proposed action.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 08:43 AM   #48
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Again dear friend SmilingSkeptic, if I and others are starting to feel you are being controlling, think about it please.

A controlling person is not a loving person.

Just trying to make you face the possibility of your proposed action.
As I have said before, guys, my girlfriend is fine with me scrutinizing Baha'i activities before allowing my hypothetical children to go to them, while hoping that I see a children's class up close so that I have more information. I don't know how exactly this seems to be "controlling," and moreover I think she would be the first to tell me if I seemed controlling.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 09:04 AM   #49
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As I have said before, guys, my girlfriend is fine with me scrutinizing Baha'i activities before allowing my hypothetical children to go to them, while hoping that I see a children's class up close so that I have more information. I don't know how exactly this seems to be "controlling," and moreover I think she would be the first to tell me if I seemed controlling.
What you say is good and fine.
I just have tried to point out how your posting comes across to me.
I having great respect and love for you, only want what is best for you, and for you to consider.
You say your girlfriend is happy that you check etc, well that is fine, but I being an old man, and having been married more than once, understand how quickly people can change as the years go by. This of course may not happen to you, but from my experience is something that has great possibility of happening.

You are both in early stages of love, and I know in this stage many promise many things, that later are used as weapons one against another.

All I ask of you is to consider deeply what ways you wish to limit your children in different ways. And of course they being future children, they, you will quickly discover will have ideas of their own. Are you being able to give up your concern to allow your future child to discover for themselves?

Just some thoughts I feel for you to consider dear friend.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 09:21 AM   #50
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Earlier in life I would be more protective, and as they hopefully matured less so. However, I'm still worried that like my girlfriend, who was raised Baha'i, and chose it because that was the natural thing for her and other than occasional Christmas masses she hadn't really seen anything else, and like myself who was baptized into Catholicism, they would just end up picking the Baha'i Faith because that's the way their childhood was shaped by everything they went to.

If they later found out about the things I disagree with about all faiths (which I would have to tell them when they were older, and could understand my criticisms) and chose to leave it and considered themselves Baha'i for most of their lives, I know from experience they would go through unimaginable pain. I'm imagining any one of a million scenarios here. That's why I would try to not just talk about other religions, but expose them to my secular viewpoint and that of other religions. I know that they would be their own people, but as a parent I would still worry. Not about them being indoctrinated or anything, but about them being given as much of a neutral and balanced upbringing as possible so their choice can TRULY be free.

Last edited by SmilingSkeptic; 08-24-2014 at 10:29 PM.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 09:35 AM   #51
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Earlier in life I would be more protective, and as they hopefully matured less so. However, I'm still worried that like my girlfriend, who was raised Baha'i, ad chose it because that was the natural thing for her and other than occasional Christmas masses she hadn't really seen anything else, and like myself who was baptized into Catholicism, they would just end up picking the Baha'i Faith because that's the way their childhood was shaped by everything they went to.

If they later found out about the things I disagree with about all faiths (which I would have to tell them when they were older, and could understand my criticisms) and chose to leave it and considered themselves Baha'i for most of their lives, I know from experience they would go through unimaginable pain. I'm imagining any one of a million scenarios here. That's why I would try to not just talk about other religions, but expose them to my secular viewpoint and that of other religions. I know that they would be their own people, but as a parent I would still worry. Not about them being indoctrinated or anything, but about them being given as much of a neutral and balanced upbringing as possible so their choice can TRULY be free.
Dear friend what you have written I would fully agree with.
I see no harm in you discussing with your children your ideas and concerns, so long as they can study and search through all ideas also.

This is part and parcel of the Baha'i idea of individual investigation.

And I liked to see the concern you are showing as all fathers experience, with their children, but of course I am sure you may have seen also some fathers who demand complete obedience with no respect for the child.

I wish you well in your future dear friend.

Last edited by BlinkeyBill; 08-19-2014 at 09:36 AM. Reason: spelling error
 
Old 08-19-2014, 09:38 AM   #52
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The reality is that there is nothing like a neutral upbringing. Even the definition and choice for neutrality is already the choice for a certain ideology and view of life.

Which of course I respect and I fully understand why you want to approach it in that way.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 10:01 AM   #53
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Dear friend what you have written I would fully agree with.
I see no harm in you discussing with your children your ideas and concerns, so long as they can study and search through all ideas also.

This is part and parcel of the Baha'i idea of individual investigation.

And I liked to see the concern you are showing as all fathers experience, with their children, but of course I am sure you may have seen also some fathers who demand complete obedience with no respect for the child.

I wish you well in your future dear friend.
All ideas, meaning of course, that I would even tell them about the ideas of those who are dissenting from the main Baha'i organization, or called "covenant breakers." Otherwise, this puts paid to the idea that the individual is truly investigating when one perspective is not allowed. This is the only idea I've brought forward that my girlfriend seemed to be against at first, but she accepted why I want to show my children all ideas and then accepted that this was a part of it.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 10:03 AM   #54
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The reality is that there is nothing like a neutral upbringing. Even the definition and choice for neutrality is already the choice for a certain ideology and view of life.

Which of course I respect and I fully understand why you want to approach it in that way.
Explain? I don't think it's an ideology at all. If anything it's a choice not to impose any preset ideology on your children.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 11:32 AM   #55
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All ideas, meaning of course, that I would even tell them about the ideas of those who are dissenting from the main Baha'i organization, or called "covenant breakers." Otherwise, this puts paid to the idea that the individual is truly investigating when one perspective is not allowed. This is the only idea I've brought forward that my girlfriend seemed to be against at first, but she accepted why I want to show my children all ideas and then accepted that this was a part of it.
But of course all Baha'is have to understand what Covenant breaking is, and why.
The only thing I feel that your girlfriend would object to, is the children associating with covenant breakers, this is forbidden to Baha'is.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 11:38 AM   #56
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How can any religious classes be religiously neutral, I think our friend would Rythmcs would be having a problem here, saying something like a complete impossible statement or other. Big smile
Indeed. You might be able to get close, if you explained the Baha'i position on something, for example - and then explained various other positions on the same matter from the standpoint of widely dissimilar traditions, lacking any color commentary on which one should choose (though the location and nature of the meeting is enough for most children to infer that).

@Nuetrality -can be- an ideology, but it doesn't -have to be-. It depends upon what flows (or doesn't) from that nuetrality. Nuetrality could simply be a piece of a larger ideology (and that's most often the case).

I wouldn't be too worried about religious classes or schools Skep. I went to catholic school, after all..lol. I'm no worse for wear on that count. I don't know what a baha'i children's class is all about, of course, so if it's just baha camp ala jesus camp..well then....that might be worrisome. Anybody gone to one, care to enlighten me?

Last edited by Rhythmcs; 08-19-2014 at 11:43 AM.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 11:47 AM   #57
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Indeed. You might be able to get close, if you explained the Baha'i position on something, for example - and then explained various other positions on the same matter from the standpoint of widely dissimilar traditions, lacking any color commentary on which one should choose (though the location and nature of the meeting is enough for most children to infer that).

@Nuetrality -can be- an ideology, but it doesn't -have to be-. It depends upon what flows (or doesn't) from that nuetrality. Nuetrality could simply be a piece of a larger ideology (and that's most often the case).

I wouldn't be too worried about religious classes or schools Skep. I went to catholic school, after all..lol. I'm no worse for wear on that count. I don't know what a baha'i childrens class is all about, of course, so if it;s just baha camp ala jesus camp..well then....that's different.
I agree, Skep needs to relax a little, Baha'i classes in children's religious classes are nothing like what I ever experienced in any Christian classes.
For one the child is taught the religious beliefs of many other religions, and given the opportunity to further study and read of what may interest them about other religions, this was mostly forbidden from my experience of Christian classes.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 11:49 AM   #58
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Are they taught about the religious beliefs of other faith traditions..or the baha'i beliefs -about- the beliefs of other faith traditions?
(and just what are we talking about here btw, hopefully not 5 year olds getting a comp myth course....? That can turn out horribly.)
 
Old 08-19-2014, 12:02 PM   #59
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Are they taught about the religious beliefs of other faith traditions..or the baha'i beliefs -about- the beliefs of other faith traditions?
(and just what are we talking about here btw, hopefully not 5 year olds getting a comp myth course....? That can turn out horribly.)
That's sort of the vibe I'm getting off of reading the Ruhi books. That it's more about teaching what the Baha'i Faith has to say about other religions, and virtues from a Baha'i perspective. Nothing wrong with that of course, but basic courtesy they can learn in public schools, and they can learn the rest in 19 Day Feast.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 12:06 PM   #60
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Are they taught about the religious beliefs of other faith traditions..or the baha'i beliefs -about- the beliefs of other faith traditions?
(and just what are we talking about here btw, hopefully not 5 year olds getting a comp myth course....? That can turn out horribly.)
Dear friend, of course they are taught, the basics of all other faiths, and part of the teaching would be, what we have been taught by Baha'u'llah.
But as a Baha'i parent we do not forbid the children then wishing to study in the library or wherever what the respective religion themselves believe.
The children are free to study for themselves all faiths, hopefully this thirst for learning would come about because of the open teaching of all faiths in the Baha'i classes, but such teaching of course would not be in depth, that would need investigation of the child. And the children are encouraged to explore, and learn of others beliefs, and then compare to Baha'i belief, to make a true comparison they need to study.

There is no brainwashing, or telling children if they investigate other faiths they will go direct to hell and bypass go, as I have seen in other faiths.
I understand the worry and concern very well, and it is a good concern, but has grown out of other faiths teachings, not the teaching of Baha'u'llah.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 12:14 PM   #61
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That's sort of the vibe I'm getting off of reading the Ruhi books. That it's more about teaching what the Baha'i Faith has to say about other religions, and virtues from a Baha'i perspective. Nothing wrong with that of course, but basic courtesy they can learn in public schools, and they can learn the rest in 19 Day Feast.
Of course dear friend, the Ruhi classes are teaching the Baha'i faith. Basically for Baha'is or people interested in the Baha'i faith.
If a person wishes to learn of other faiths, they do what I and others have done, they either approach the religion itself for books to study or go to your local library for information.

Most schools today have good libraries where the children can study, if not (as I know certain Christians destroy books of other faiths) they can access their local public library for access, or again approach the other religion direct and ask for information. It would be a very bad Baha'i I feel who would stop their children from personal investigation of all other faiths.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 12:23 PM   #62
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Offer them water

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All ideas, meaning of course, that I would even tell them about the ideas of those who are dissenting from the main Baha'i organization, or called "covenant breakers." Otherwise, this puts paid to the idea that the individual is truly investigating when one perspective is not allowed. This is the only idea I've brought forward that my girlfriend seemed to be against at first, but she accepted why I want to show my children all ideas and then accepted that this was a part of it.
Would you also offer them poisoned water along with that from a fresh mountain stream, just so they could experience the effects of arsenic?
 
Old 08-19-2014, 12:24 PM   #63
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What we're talking about here isn't a school, or education, but the religious indoctrination of children? Pretty much jesus camp for baha'is then (and creepy for the same reasons). Yeah, I'd have to pass as well Skep. Part and parcel of being a good parent, I suppose. Opinions vary.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 12:34 PM   #64
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Would you also offer them poisoned water along with that from a fresh mountain stream, just so they could experience the effects of arsenic?
I don't see how that's the same thing. After all, how can you say that they are being exposed to all religious viewpoints when this one, even if you disagree with it, is not allowed to be shown?
 
Old 08-19-2014, 12:35 PM   #65
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What we're talking about here isn't a school, or education, but the religious indoctrination of children? Pretty much jesus camp for baha'is then (and creepy for the same reasons). Yeah, I'd have to pass as well Skep. Part and parcel of being a good parent, I suppose. Opinions vary.
I think that I will, of course, visit one for myself to see how it actually is and mull it over.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 12:49 PM   #66
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Problem

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I don't see how that's the same thing. After all, how can you say that they are being exposed to all religious viewpoints when this one, even if you disagree with it, is not allowed to be shown?
Skeptic,
. From your point of view, I fully understand what you are saying. It isn't so much of a "point of view" that covenant breakers do, as poisoning the pure writings of the Faith with malintent. It is exceedingly sinister, deceptive, and spiritually poisoned. By that I mean there is a reality to it which is not at once apparent, and on a level which people who have not been exposed to it are unaware of.

. You might call it spiritual pornography. On a lesser level then, will you expose your children to pornography next to true art? Is this what you have in mind? I don't think so.

. The comparison to physical poison is about as close to reality as one can get when communicating in material terms. One can understand the material effects of poison secretly added to food. People have been sickened and killed for thousands of years, either intentionally or accidentally. Yes?

. So the question becomes whether or not there is such a thing as spiritual poison, and how that would be defined. What are the effects? If the language we are speaking does not include the use of the term spirit, or spiritual, it is difficult to describe meaningfully.

. The first thing which comes to mind is disunity rather than unity. The entire purpose of covenant-breakers is to create schism, to divide the Baha'i community for the purposes of exploitation and separation. They "get off" on this. Why? It is a manifestation of a corrupted ego. Best explanation I can give. It is a corruption of the self, ultra selfishness, like a virus which destroys its host, and ultimately itself.

. The mechanisms used are other than "truth", honesty, altruism, selflessness. For those who are familiar with this insideous disease, it truly carries a stench about it, and one has to develop a certain radar or gut feeling to be aware of and repulsed by it in order to avoid the effects. Ultimately, one who desires to follow the instincts to protect his/her children must follow the same instincts on a spiritual level.

. Hope I've not said to much here. Hope you understand.
.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 12:55 PM   #67
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Maybe reading covenant breakers' writings is bad for Baha'is- although I think that the idea of covenant breaking is a holdover from the days of shunning and ostracism that doesn't mesh with the seemingly progressive aims of the Faith and fuels criticisms by some of my more passionate (mainly Christian) friends that Baha'is are conformist and in the words of one, "doublethinking". Now, I don't agree with this, but you can see the contradiction. Even leaving that aside, my children would not be Baha'i until they chose to do so, but accentuating only the positives, or only exposing them to Administration-approved reading material on the Faith could do real harm by putting intellectual blinders on them.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 01:04 PM   #68
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Since you aren;t allowed to read the writings of covenant breakers, or associate woith them, I see how you've managed to demonize them in such a way. I'm under no such prohibition - so I have, and do. Wanna know something that might tickle you? The two groups I;ve been exposed to, yourselves , the "house" baha'i and themselves...are ideologically indistinguishable. Some of their stories are heartbreaking too. Maybe one day y'all will let them back into the fold they value so much. But probably not until you stop demonizing them and making any interaction with them taboo. Some of the original "covenant breakers" went along with it so queitly and subserviently it;s difficult to imagine how they've broken anything. Mud is slung there way (hello Dale) and they keep their mouths shut about it. Sowing dis-unity indeed.......

When an accuser assumes the role of judge, jury, and executioner - any moral high ground they may have -ever- had..if there ever was any at all, is washed away in an instant.

Last edited by Rhythmcs; 08-19-2014 at 01:08 PM.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 01:22 PM   #69
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Hard to explain

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Originally Posted by SmilingSkeptic View Post
I don't see how that's the same thing. After all, how can you say that they are being exposed to all religious viewpoints when this one, even if you disagree with it, is not allowed to be shown?
Skeptic,
. It is hard to explain, I'll grant you that. What I am saying is that it is not a religious viewpoint, but an insideous counterfeit, the hand of a pick-pocket or a rapist. That sort of thing.

. I had a child molester in my house about twenty years ago and had no idea. I knew that this fellow was schizophrenic, but regarded him as a friend. When some other people picked up signs that I had not seen, we were warned, and of course at once acted. Then the signs started becoming apparent.

. The "signs" of covenant-breakers are all counterfeit, like corrupt data in a computer. Most of the data isn't corrupt, but that which is inserted by whatever means, essentially destroys the computer.

. Remeber the Exxon Valdez? A very experienced captain, but intoxicated. A very slight naviagational error of a couple of degrees and what happened to all that oil? Same with the Titanic. In a hurry to get to America, the captain risked the lives of everyone on board, and lost.

. The difference with the CBs is that they are not innocent in their deliberate deception and manipulation of information. They are very sublte, ingenius at times, at creating doubt in the minds of their prey. They escort people into a minefield or a trench full of lies and intrigue, tempting vulnerable egos and innocent souls. Again, for the purpose of their own motives, which are not pure by any measure.

. In order for people to be "good", they must also be able to be evil. Mother Theresa was good. Adolf Hitler was evil. Yes? Both started out as innocent children. Who corrupted them, and why? Who would you hand your child to?

. I would prefer the ebola virus both to myself and my children than exposure to that which is offered by covenant-breakers. I would seek to protect them from both!!

.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 01:26 PM   #70
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More hyperbolic demonization. Dale, is that really necessary? You don't know these people, do you?
 
Old 08-19-2014, 01:41 PM   #71
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Contagion

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Since you aren;t allowed to read the writings of covenant breakers, or associate woith them, I see how you've managed to demonize them in such a way...
Rhythm,
. They are not demonized. Are the victims of ebola demonized? No, but they are quarentined, are they not? And this is for the protection of their family, friends, and the community at large.

. Of course they will make themselves to be indistinguishable from the "house", and will have their stories to tell. I was conned into a loan for a house by Countrywide a few years ago, and am still paying for it.

. Every single one of the CBs will be accepted back into the community which Baha'u'llah has created by observing the Covenant which He has established.

. "O ye peoples of the earth! By the righteousness of God, the True One, the testimony shown forth by His Remembrance is like unto a sun which the hand of the merciful Lord hath raised high in the midmost heart of the heaven, wherefrom it shineth in the plentitude of its meridian splendour...

. With each and every Propheth Whom We have sent down in the past, We have established a separate Covenant concerning the Remembrance of God and His Day. Manifest, in the realm of glory and through the power of truth, are the Remembrance of God and His Day before the eyes of the angels that circle round His mercy-seat."

from Selections of the Writings of the Bab Chp XCI
 
Old 08-19-2014, 01:50 PM   #72
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"They're not demonized" -he said, as he continued to demonize them. Are you familiar with scientology, and the practice of labeling certain persons as SP's?
 
Old 08-19-2014, 01:55 PM   #73
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Yes, actually

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More hyperbolic demonization. Dale, is that really necessary? You don't know these people, do you?
Yes, actually. I lived in a community in Pennsylvania for many years. The person there was very well known, writing letters to the editor published a couple of times a week, occasionally inserting her "Baha'i" perspective. All I can say is that there was something "dead" about her. It was sad. Her daughter, however, was always welcome in our house.

. It is not demonization. You don't understand. It is a level of toxic disunity which is destructive to the very foundation of the Cause of God. As you do not accept the reality of the existence of God, or that there is a "Cause", which is unifying humanity from every strata of the globe, you cannot appreciate the value of preserving that unity from the "self-interested only" manifestations of personal ego at the cost of the community.

. Consider racism. I have a friend who is a white racist. Extremely well educated and sophisticated in so many other ways. I still enjoy his friendship, and point out to him that my best friends in PA and CA were African American, and that my cousin married a black fellow with whom she had 3 beautiful sons. Her father disowned her, and deprived himself of the love of those children.

. My uncle is a wonderful soul, as is my other friend. I look past these deeply rooted issues they have and concentrate on the manifest goodness in them. Both of the have great strengths that I look up to. I do not label them as "racists", as that is only a single facet of their personalities. They have their stories as to why they hold their views. It is a carry over of gross generalization which they never outgrew from early exposure experiences which appeared negative. I don't argue with them, but am very happy to socialize with them, so long as they don't go off the deep end where my non-white friends and relatives are concerned.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 01:59 PM   #74
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It is demonization, and I do understand. You're asking me to accept analogies of ebola, racism, cons, claiming that something is "dead inside" someone. This is sickening Dale. Not content with demonizing these people, you're now dismissing me and my comments. What you're doing and my comments about it have nothing to do with my not toeing your line. I appreciate the value of things, and I even appreciate the value of things -to others- when I don;t see that value. So kindly keep that shit to yourself, eh?

I'm sure that all of this is in the service of some great god, or truth, or unity..............
 
Old 08-19-2014, 02:01 PM   #75
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Water in gasoline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmcs View Post
"They're not demonized" -he said, as he continued to demonize them. Are you familiar with scientology, and the practice of labeling certain persons as SP's?
How would you characterize a fellow running a gas station who puts water in the load? Would you demonize him? Or just avoid his gas in your car.

You are demonizing me for not wanting gas in my car tainted with water. Fine if you want to run it in yours, but don't ask me to ride accross the desert with you.

If you are my friend and ask me which brand of gas I use and I say any kind is good, some are better, but avoid this guy over here who puts water in the tank. Well, the "demon" is the water, and he demonizes himself.

You are building a case on very partial information, passing counterfeit bills, and demonizing me for not passing them with you. Go for it, brother. But go it alone from here on out. I've said my piece.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 02:08 PM   #76
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Oh boy, and now we're on to claiming that you aren't demonizing these people, that I am, in fact, demonizing you.........perhaps you're taking this a bit too far?

Look.......it's easy to assassinate the character of someone who isn't present to defend themselves, agreed? Now, I'm right here, and so you can wring out your angst against -whomever- with me as a proxy all day long and it'll be aight, I'll still call you my buddy when the day is done. What I won't do, is keep -my- mouth shut while you demean myself and others. You know, unity, and all that jazz.
 
Old 08-19-2014, 10:02 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmcs View Post
Oh boy, and now we're on to claiming that you aren't demonizing these people, that I am, in fact, demonizing you.........perhaps you're taking this a bit too far?

Look.......it's easy to assassinate the character of someone who isn't present to defend themselves, agreed? Now, I'm right here, and so you can wring out your angst against -whomever- with me as a proxy all day long and it'll be aight, I'll still call you my buddy when the day is done. What I won't do, is keep -my- mouth shut while you demean myself and others. You know, unity, and all that jazz.
I agree. I was deeply confused when, as a seeker, I saw a lot of venom towards people who had disagreed with lines of succession and broken off, and instead of trying to bring them back into the fold and truly demonstrating that the Baha'i vision of global unity could work, the mainline Baha'i organization ultimately has chosen to ostracize them permanently while at the same time claiming to having the answers to bringing about world peace!
 
Old 08-19-2014, 10:49 PM   #78
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Into the fold

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmilingSkeptic View Post
I agree. I was deeply confused when, as a seeker, I saw a lot of venom towards people who had disagreed with lines of succession and broken off, and instead of trying to bring them back into the fold and truly demonstrating that the Baha'i vision of global unity could work, the mainline Baha'i organization ultimately has chosen to ostracize them permanently while at the same time claiming to having the answers to bringing about world peace!
Skeptic,
. I have seen this at work from not too far away. Every possible effort with the greatest love and patience is given to such people, who are throroughly aware of what they are doing, and still they do it any way. There are of course those who will show their indignation in one way or another, some with greater or lesser maturity. I cannot speak for them.

. The only way for global unity to work is for unity to work on lesser and then greater levels. To purposely sow disunity and oppose the Manifestation of God, and He Who is the Center of His Covenant, and the one appointed after Him, is the extreme opposite of what the Baha'i Faith teaches and hopes to accomplish.

. These people have not created their own religion, they seek to carve up and control the religion of God. This is precisely what happened to Islam, upon the day of the Apostle's death, before His body was even buried. They could not accomplish this during His life, and sought temporal authority upon His death. 1400 years later, look at the result!

. You can read Abdul Baha's description of this in Some Answered Questions, as He specifically states that "the Beast" spoken of in Revelation refers to the Umayyads. He speaks of Muhammad and Ali as the Two Witnesses mentioned in Revelation, the tribulation of the 1260 days (years) which is the Cycle of the Furqan.

. He also states that most of the bloodshed throughout the history of Islam, including the Martyrdom of the Bab, proceded from the words of Umar to Ali: "Verily, the Book is sufficient unto us." Thus, he opposed the Prophet Muhammad and His appointed Successor, Ali. This is the result of breaking the Covenant of God, and yes, those who fall into this category are not to be associated with.

. Baha'u'llah left a clear, written Covenant appointing Abdul Baha, as did Abdul Baha appointing Shoghi Effendi as the Guardian of the Cause of God. This entire subject is dealt with in Ruhi Book 8, and it is encyclopedic, in great depth and detail. All the previous religions have been carved up and splintered, from Buddhism, to Jewish, to Christian, to Muslim. Again, you can see the result.

. There is no cohesion amongst them. Only confusion, contention, and chaos: the result of personalities seeking their own exaltation, and the little following they gain soon trails away as a limb cut from the tree. The only life it had was when it was part of the tree. Sure, it looks green for a short while and "appears" to have life, but severed from the Tree, it soon withers and dies. We should not confuse that which is the cause of spiritual life with that which is the cause of spiritual death.

.
 
Old 08-20-2014, 12:11 AM   #79
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Presuming for the moment that you are correct and these people are vile, what would be the harm in telling them why they think the way they do? Wouldn't it be imperative for me to let them know what their positions are as a precaution? To do otherwise would be like sticking our fingers in our ears and pretending that Neo-Nazis don't exist just because we don't like them. So either way I would still tell them what the positions of and criticisms against the so-called "covenant breakers" just as I would tell them about the positions of and criticisms against the Baha'i Faith- so that they have nothing but the facts.
 
Old 08-20-2014, 01:04 AM   #80
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Skeptic wrote:

Quote:
If they later found out about the things I disagree with about all faiths (which I would have to tell them when they were older, and could understand my criticisms) and chose to leave it and considered themselves Baha'i for most of their lives, I know from experience they would go through unimaginable pain. I'm imagining any one of a million scenarios here. That's why I would try to not just talk about other religions, but expose them to my secular viewpoint and that of other religions. I know that they would be their own people, but as a parent I would still worry. Not about them being indoctrinated or anything, but about them being given as much of a neutral and balanced upbringing as possible so their choice can TRULY be free.
I think it's great that you care so much about the well-being of your children. Baha'i children's classes teach children to think for themselves rather than just being indoctrinated blindly in a belief system. They learn lessons, hear stories and sing songs about loving all humanity, unity, justice, generosity, humility, truthfulness, trustworthiness, etc.

Junior youth learn to see beyond their own selfish desires to taking an active interest in the world and serving the community around them. They learn that what they do in the world matters. They develop peer groups in their neighborhoods where they try to do good by doing activities like assisting with children's classes, visiting the elderly in nursing homes, picking up the neighborhood, or whatever else they see that needs happening where they live.

There is indoctrination of children going on all the time in the media. Commercials, tv programs and movies are teaching children to be selfish and materialistic and that violence is an easy solution to problems, and sex has nothing to do with love. Drugs, alcohol, bullying, and who knows what else, are promoted by peers. The best you can do is to try to counter it with teaching values which will help them to become good citizens (world citizens) striving for excellence in what they do, and trying to make a positive contribution to the world. I imagine this is what your girlfriend wants for her future children. Children, as much as possible, free of prejudices, caring about all, and wanting to serve others and not just themselves. Children who grow up free from a lot of the negative influences in society.
 
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