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Old 04-07-2015, 11:19 PM   #41
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dale ramsdell View Post
. "the unity of nations a unity which, in this century, will be securely established"

. It can be suggested that while it falls short of being an instrument of the Most Great Peace, the United Nations is an instrument of the Lesser Peace. This instrument, although it may be in the hands of unwilling and immature nations, in their present state, is nevertheless instrumental in securing accountability and cooperation, essential dialogue and consultation, amongst the representatives of the peoples of the world.

. It is sufficiently secure enough to have lasted nearly 70 years already, has facillitated negotiations and controlled to varying extents wildfires amidst the countries which in the past would have burned out of control.

. A drunk does not sober up with one cup of coffee. Humanity is yet sobering up. At least we have been handed a cup of coffee and not more whiskey, which has fallen out of fashion.

. This is a many generational process which the governing bodies of mankind are progressing through. There are still Nazis alive in the world who perpetrated the holocaust. We are only a couple of lifetimes away from living memory of slavery in many countries.

. The progress of dealing with aggression has gone from an eye for an eye to a sanction for an infraction, with measurable success. We are learning a new way of dealing with our own selves as a species. We have the Revelation of Baha'u'llah to thank for that.

. "These ruinous wars and the strife shall pass away, and the Most Great Peace shall come..."
Dear Dale - Hope all is well!

Also to consider with this "securely established"

What about the Faith?

Did it not spread to all Nations and thus plant the seeds and take root in nearly all nations, thus firmly established!

It would be an interesting exercise to put together all the Foundations that have been worked on for World Unity in the Twentieth Century, it would be a Truck Load!

God bless and Regards Tony
 
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Old 04-07-2015, 11:58 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
Dear Sen. I would ask wrong about what?
It's very simple Tony. The UHJ states, "It is true that 'Abdu'l-Bahá made statements linking the establishment of the unity of nations to the twentieth century. For example: "The fifth candle is the unity of nations a unity which, in this century, ..."

But it is not true that...
If you read it carefully, you will note that the text they quote, from the 7 candles tablet, does NOT refer to the 20th century. It refers to "this century." So its a good example of the UHJ saying that something is stated in the Writings, when it is not.
 
Old 04-08-2015, 12:23 AM   #43
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn View Post
It's very simple Tony. The UHJ states, "It is true that 'Abdu'l-Bahá made statements linking the establishment of the unity of nations to the twentieth century. For example: "The fifth candle is the unity of nations a unity which, in this century, ..."

But it is not true that...
If you read it carefully, you will note that the text they quote, from the 7 candles tablet, does NOT refer to the 20th century. It refers to "this century." So its a good example of the UHJ saying that something is stated in the Writings, when it is not.
Dear Sen - You further clarification is Noted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn;
The upshot is, when the UHJ says that X or Y is in the Bahai writings, one has to look for the source and check it, just as you would when any other Bahai says that X or Y is in the Writings. It may not be there at all, or reading the actual source in context may suggest to you some different reading.
Dear Sen - But the Upshot is, if it is an issue, then one can get it clarified.

As for this particular issue, to me it is no issue

If there is an issue for anybody else, get it addressed and I have full confidence in the Universal House of Justice that if wrong, it will be righted.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Old 04-08-2015, 06:49 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
Dear Walrus, another thoughtful post thank you

I would like to give you a story, as all material is but a reflection of spiritual

In my years in the Army one learns as to what the fine line is between disagreement and disobedience. The structure of the Army is devised so that any given time when an order is given it is executed without question so the ultimate victory can be won.

This obedience is gained through respect and training. The respect is that the General knows what He is doing and that He has appointed officers that will carry out the Generals Instructions. When this is achieved the troops on the ground work together in complete Harmony.

The the important things here after acceptance of the overriding ability of the General is obedience and Training.

Disagreement in the army is also through the Chain of Command and can not be voiced, let say on the parade ground. One can not sing out disagreement in this venue or they have undertaken Disobedience and I assure you you will get charged! This I have been witness to.

I also note that when this happens in the confines of a Platoon in the Army, it is not usually the Disagreement remark that gets punished, what I note from experience is that the the rest of the Troops are told to do the extra push ups while the one who voice the disagreement is allowed to stand by and watch the results of the action. This "Type" of discipline is designed as to enable all those who are obedient to guide the one that may not be.

You will note all suffer from a Disagreement. Would it not have been better to go through the chain of command in the first place?

God Bless and Regards Tony
In an army, I can see how this might be the case. An army runs on Unity by Conformity, because it must by its very nature.

However, our goal is Unity in Diversity. A Greater Unity to the Lesser Unity experienced in Conformity.

Disagreement is a threat to the Lesser Unity.

However, it is a boon to the Greater Unity. Discussion can lead to mutual understanding and peace. Not engaging in such discussion can lead to confusion, hate, and resentment. If person A does not discuss his disagreement, he will continue to disagree inwardly, leading to resentment to those he disagrees with. If person A discusses this with those he disagrees with, both have an opportunity to learn how and why the other thinks the way they do.

Take politics as an example. Political people organize themselves into groups of people they agree with (the Lesser Unity by Conformity). They continue to agree with one another, and eject those who voice dissent and threaten their lesser unity.

How does a Political Party view people not of their Party?? They view them as The Enemy, literally evil, horrible people who want to ruin the country for greed and evil!! Their adherence to the Lesser Unity has made them unable to consider how or why the people who disagree with them disagree.

For a military, Lesser Unity is fine. For a democratic institution like our Faith, it results in an "us vs. them" mentality. That mentality is desirable in war, at least by the military leaders (empathizing with your Enemy makes it harder to kill your Enemy). That mentality is nothing but trouble in peace (which sees others enemies even though there are no longer enemies).

Last edited by Walrus; 04-08-2015 at 06:54 AM.
 
Old 04-08-2015, 11:15 AM   #45
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
In an army, I can see how this might be the case. An army runs on Unity by Conformity, because it must by its very nature.

However, our goal is Unity in Diversity. A Greater Unity to the Lesser Unity experienced in Conformity.

Disagreement is a threat to the Lesser Unity.

However, it is a boon to the Greater Unity. Discussion can lead to mutual understanding and peace. Not engaging in such discussion can lead to confusion, hate, and resentment. If person A does not discuss his disagreement, he will continue to disagree inwardly, leading to resentment to those he disagrees with. If person A discusses this with those he disagrees with, both have an opportunity to learn how and why the other thinks the way they do.

Take politics as an example. Political people organize themselves into groups of people they agree with (the Lesser Unity by Conformity). They continue to agree with one another, and eject those who voice dissent and threaten their lesser unity.

How does a Political Party view people not of their Party?? They view them as The Enemy, literally evil, horrible people who want to ruin the country for greed and evil!! Their adherence to the Lesser Unity has made them unable to consider how or why the people who disagree with them disagree.

For a military, Lesser Unity is fine. For a democratic institution like our Faith, it results in an "us vs. them" mentality. That mentality is desirable in war, at least by the military leaders (empathizing with your Enemy makes it harder to kill your Enemy). That mentality is nothing but trouble in peace (which sees others enemies even though there are no longer enemies).
That dear friend is a good analogy, whereas mine was very limited.

The point I was attempting to make is that there is wisdom to consider, a line of command to taken, before making a statement that has repercussions to the Soul of Man.

Armies have their time and place within the whole structure of the unity that is to come, thus we can not dismiss them as not being part of the Greater Unity to come.

The analogy of Soldiers and Battles and Armies are used in the writings and are used in the context of a complete unity of action, may we battle and move forward in serried lines

God bless and regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 04-08-2015 at 11:18 AM. Reason: spelling
 
Old 04-08-2015, 01:42 PM   #46
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The UHJ is not perfect, and Bahá'ís need to realize that. To be quite frank, it isn't even the covenant due to the fact they don't have a living guardian. Now I know there's certain circumstances and all, but the UHJ are far from perfect and openly admit it. Take their words when interpreting as advice and fallible.
 
Old 04-08-2015, 01:48 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Lemuel View Post
The UHJ is not perfect, and Bahá'ís need to realize that. To be quite frank, it isn't even the covenant due to the fact they don't have a living guardian. Now I know there's certain circumstances and all, but the UHJ are far from perfect and openly admit it. Take their words when interpreting as advice and fallible.
The issue of interpretation is very interesting. As I understand it, the absence of a Guardian means that nobody is authorized to interpret the texts after the death of Shoghi Effendi.

gnat
 
Old 04-08-2015, 03:27 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
The issue of interpretation is very interesting. As I understand it, the absence of a Guardian means that nobody is authorized to interpret the texts after the death of Shoghi Effendi.

gnat

Nobody is, true
 
Old 04-08-2015, 03:34 PM   #49
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The House is so much more than the sum of its nine members. It has so many resources to draw on, individual scholars,organisations and bodies etc. I therefore have no problem with accepting writings from The House. Also it wouldn't make any sense for The House to knowingly make a false proclamation as it knows that it is subject to knowledgeable scholarly scrutiny
 
Old 04-08-2015, 03:37 PM   #50
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuel View Post
The UHJ is not perfect, and Bahá'ís need to realize that. To be quite frank, it isn't even the covenant due to the fact they don't have a living guardian. Now I know there's certain circumstances and all, but the UHJ are far from perfect and openly admit it. Take their words when interpreting as advice and fallible.
What a Baha'i needs to do us read the Will and Testament of Abdul'baha and implement it in their lives.

God bless this implementation Regards Tony
 
Old 04-08-2015, 06:36 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tony
Dear Larry - Firstly can I am not fit to even say this "I am certainly not scholarly by any means", in regards to knowledge of any type.

There is no need to look for quotes, as I was not quoting for the writings, I stated "To me", which are my thoughts on the issue of the Covenant.

The Study of the Rhui Book 8 course does inspire all to see the power in the Covenant. The only Mouthpiece we have now is the Universal House of Justice. For us, it is to follow the Divinely Inspired Guidance given to them and then by them to us as per the Covenant, and know that there is a course of action if we think the Writings say something other than the message from the Universal House of Justice states.

Dear Larry, The motive of all here is most likely never to attack the the Mighty Covenant, as you would be more than a fool to try. The motive of the posts I have placed, is to let people take a step back, and in Light of the Will and Testament of Abdul'Baha, actually take note of what their comments are inferring in relation to that document.

God Bless and Regards Tony
Thank you Tony.

I appreciate that you consistently emphasize the importance of turning to the Will and Testament of ‘Abdu’l-Baha as He is Center of the Baha’u’llah’s Covenant and a designated Interpreter of the Word of God. As Shoghi Effendi explains, ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s Will and Testament is the interpretation of Baha’u’llah’s intent as expressed in the Kitab-i-Aqdas.

The reason I was asking for quotes from Shoghi Effendi to support your personal understandings and comments about the Guardianship is because he is also the Interpreter of the revealed Word and the “chosen minister” of the Covenant (see World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 151). In addition to the Will and Testament of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, we might consider weighing our perceptions about the Guardianship “in the Light of” the Guardian’s writings.

As for Ruhi Book 8 (volumes 1, 2, or 3?) - or any of the other Ruhi Book series - if read carefully I believe you will find that in addition to the quotes from the Baha'i Scriptures and the Guardian's writings, they contain in their narrations elements of human perception. To be clear, I am not opposed to Ruhi but it is not the Word of God. I read and recognize Ruhi for what it is (a study tool). If the narrations with their interwoven perceptions are misunderstood as having the same status of the divine text, then there is risk that those perceptions will attain the same status as Baha’i doctrine. I observe (“perceive”) it has already happened in the minds of many. When I have studied Ruhi with groups, I have found my questioning of some of the narrated concepts and elements of human perception unwelcomed.

I totally agree with you in that all of our comments should be weighed “in the Light of” what was actually written and interpreted by those designated to do so.

Take care. LR
 
Old 04-09-2015, 01:42 AM   #52
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Roofener View Post
Thank you Tony.

I appreciate that you consistently emphasize the importance of turning to the Will and Testament of ‘Abdu’l-Baha as He is Center of the Baha’u’llah’s Covenant and a designated Interpreter of the Word of God. As Shoghi Effendi explains, ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s Will and Testament is the interpretation of Baha’u’llah’s intent as expressed in the Kitab-i-Aqdas.

The reason I was asking for quotes from Shoghi Effendi to support your personal understandings and comments about the Guardianship is because he is also the Interpreter of the revealed Word and the “chosen minister” of the Covenant (see World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 151). In addition to the Will and Testament of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, we might consider weighing our perceptions about the Guardianship “in the Light of” the Guardian’s writings.

As for Ruhi Book 8 (volumes 1, 2, or 3?) - or any of the other Ruhi Book series - if read carefully I believe you will find that in addition to the quotes from the Baha'i Scriptures and the Guardian's writings, they contain in their narrations elements of human perception. To be clear, I am not opposed to Ruhi but it is not the Word of God. I read and recognize Ruhi for what it is (a study tool). If the narrations with their interwoven perceptions are misunderstood as having the same status of the divine text, then there is risk that those perceptions will attain the same status as Baha’i doctrine. I observe (“perceive”) it has already happened in the minds of many. When I have studied Ruhi with groups, I have found my questioning of some of the narrated concepts and elements of human perception unwelcomed.

I totally agree with you in that all of our comments should be weighed “in the Light of” what was actually written and interpreted by those designated to do so.

Take care. LR
Dear LR you also take care.

100% agree re the study of the Guardians Writing's, have always enjoyed reading His Works, letters, cables and the pilgrim notes. The lot of the latter being quite apocalyptic.

The Rhui Books are just a study guide to the writings. As such one Still only meditates on the Writings to find for themselves the ocean of wealth contained within. The rest is inspired to enable you to do this in a way that give us a system for entry by Troops.

If we had this many years ago, it may have helped greatly. It is up to us to pursue or not.

I have confidence that Doctrine will be controlled. I have my own concerns re Rhui, but if they are not an Issue for the Universal House of Justice, then it is fine by me.

God bless and regards Tony
 
Old 04-09-2015, 07:33 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by aidan View Post
The House is so much more than the sum of its nine members.
Indeed. It is a subject that has to be discussed with immense respect. That's why I'm so glad that we are able to discuss this difficult subject from different angles without any disrespect to the writings or the institutions. Very easy to say and so difficult to do.

gnat
 
Old 04-09-2015, 07:51 AM   #54
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The Universal House of Justice is a gift from God, the like of which has never been given to anyone before.


"Bahá'u'lláh revealed the basic laws for His Dispensation and ordained the Universal House of Justice to pass subsidiary laws "regarding those things which have not outwardly been revealed in the Book". With these words, Bahá'u'lláh promises divine guidance to the Universal House of Justice in the legislative process: "God will verily inspire them with whatsoever He willeth, and He verily is the Provider, the Omniscient." Likewise, Abdu'l-Bahá promised in His Will that the Universal House of Justice would be under "the care and protection" of Bahá'u'lláh, and under "the shelter and unerring guidance" of the Báb. In the Second Part of His Will, `Abdu'l-Bahá promised that the decisions of the Universal House of Justice functioning with only its elected membership, whether unanimously or by majority vote, would be "the truth and the purpose of God Himself."
--Mr. ‘Alí Nakhjávání, retired member of the Universal House of Justice.
 
Old 04-10-2015, 08:17 AM   #55
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Hi, Sen. Thank you, again, for your response. Points taken, friend.
 
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