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Old 12-04-2013, 09:37 PM   #41
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Joined: Sep 2010
From: Normanton Far North Queensland
Posts: 3,880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeler View Post
Thanks for your last statement Romane. potato skillet's statement made no sense! The only way to advance human society beyond it's current problems is through religion!!!!! So you can't have one without the other.

The original focus of your message was illogical however. You realize that the Guardianship goes on forever - and that's good! But then you say the Guardianship "continues in the legacy of the incredible wealth of material given to the world by Shoghi Effendi."

If that's the case, then why don't we print out all of the "wealth of material" Shoghi gave us into one giant stack of paper and put that stack of paper on a chair (a throne). And any time we have questions about spirituality we can go up to that stack of paper on that chair and ask it questions??

You're misconstruing the concept of the Guardianship. The Guardianship is a position which is to be occupied by a human being. It's a executive position on the UHJ. And a stack of paper - a collection of a "wealth of material" - cannot execute! - only a living human being can execute!!

Furthermore, for a UHJ to be legitimate it must have several things - A Head (Guardian), a Body, and Hands (Hands of the Cause). Right now, you are all following a body that has no head. A body that has no head dies - and similarly a UHJ that has no head, is spiritually dead.

So Romane, are you going to continue living in denial like all the other people on this thread?? How long are you going to live without questioning that maybe, just maybe, there should be a living Guardian?

What if all the Baha'is of the world were lied to after Shoghi's death?? What if certain people covered up the truth so that they could carry out their own agenda??
Wheeler - This subject is not debatable and the Path is very Clear. The structure of the Baha'i Faith is as it should be. The Universal House of Justice is the Head of the Baha'i Faith now and into the Future.

There will be no Living Guardian as it was not possible to appoint one as per the Covenant of Baha'u'llah and the Will and Testament of Abdul'Baha.

No lies were needed, just Logical Common sense with no wish for Power.

Thus the Faith is well set against those that wish to raise doubt re this issue.

Regards Tony
 
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:09 AM   #42
dash
 
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From: Somewhere "in this immensity"
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Friends,

Continuation of the Guardianship according the instructions in the will and testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha became an impossible thing to carry out, and was a mighty test for all the Baha'i world. We should not make light of it, by saying the simple solution was "X." This was a vexing and trying time for all, and the believers acted in hope and in faith that the cause of God would continue. Now for one to declare that the UHJ is headless, or that the only way is to have a living guardian, is to conveniently overlook some very inconvenient facts, the biggest being that there was no possible successor according to the dictates of the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha.

The fact that the believers understood that the guardianship was to be the head of the faith, is not something that was missed by the believers, and it naturally troubled everyone greatly. But what to do? In a dilemma there is the possibility of doing something, anything (which won't be right) or doing nothing (which also won't be right) with one exception. According to the Aqdas, it is for the UHJ to decide on matters of the community about those things not expressly stipulated in the texts of God. Here we had such a situation, as there was nothing in the Will and Testament about what to do without a qualified heir. But there was a problem. There was no UHJ at the time, so it would not be possible for the UHJ to rule on the matter. Keep in mind, that, had it occurred (perhaps it did) to the Guardian to give some alternative to the text of the Will and Testament, it would not have been in his authority as Guardian to do so. If he had said, "look, guys, we've got a problem because I can't appoint anyone and I'm not leaving a will" he would not have been able act without the UHJ since it is for the UHJ to legislate, and not the Guardian. Therefore, continuing with the last plan of the Guardian, and working to elect the first UHJ was pragmatic and logical. When this was accomplished, the UHJ determined, as was it's divinely given right to do, that there could be no Guardian. Therefore, any claimant to Guardian, is in violation of the most explicit statement of the Aqdas and the Will and Testament.

We can't know why all these things came to be, but at the same time it seems that it was all foreseen by Baha'u'llah. In verse 46 of the Aqdas, speaking on the authority to dispense the charitable endowments of the Cause, it is revealed:

[QUOTE]"After Him [Baha'u'llah] this authority shall pass to the Aghshan [male descendants of Baha'u'llah] , and after them to the House of Justice--should it be established in the world by then--"[/QUOTE]

So we see that He has envisioned the possibility of a House ruling without Aghshan authority, which is what has come to pass.


Cheers

Last edited by Fadl; 12-05-2013 at 02:12 AM.
 
Old 12-05-2013, 03:15 AM   #43
Senior Member
 
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Joined: Oct 2011
From: Quilimari,Chile
Posts: 4,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadl View Post
Friends,

Continuation of the Guardianship according the instructions in the will and testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha became an impossible thing to carry out, and was a mighty test for all the Baha'i world. We should not make light of it, by saying the simple solution was "X." This was a vexing and trying time for all, and the believers acted in hope and in faith that the cause of God would continue. Now for one to declare that the UHJ is headless, or that the only way is to have a living guardian, is to conveniently overlook some very inconvenient facts, the biggest being that there was no possible successor according to the dictates of the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha.

The fact that the believers understood that the guardianship was to be the head of the faith, is not something that was missed by the believers, and it naturally troubled everyone greatly. But what to do? In a dilemma there is the possibility of doing something, anything (which won't be right) or doing nothing (which also won't be right) with one exception. According to the Aqdas, it is for the UHJ to decide on matters of the community about those things not expressly stipulated in the texts of God. Here we had such a situation, as there was nothing in the Will and Testament about what to do without a qualified heir. But there was a problem. There was no UHJ at the time, so it would not be possible for the UHJ to rule on the matter. Keep in mind, that, had it occurred (perhaps it did) to the Guardian to give some alternative to the text of the Will and Testament, it would not have been in his authority as Guardian to do so. If he had said, "look, guys, we've got a problem because I can't appoint anyone and I'm not leaving a will" he would not have been able act without the UHJ since it is for the UHJ to legislate, and not the Guardian. Therefore, continuing with the last plan of the Guardian, and working to elect the first UHJ was pragmatic and logical. When this was accomplished, the UHJ determined, as was it's divinely given right to do, that there could be no Guardian. Therefore, any claimant to Guardian, is in violation of the most explicit statement of the Aqdas and the Will and Testament.

We can't know why all these things came to be, but at the same time it seems that it was all foreseen by Baha'u'llah. In verse 46 of the Aqdas, speaking on the authority to dispense the charitable endowments of the Cause, it is revealed:

[QUOTE]"After Him [Baha'u'llah] this authority shall pass to the Aghshan [male descendants of Baha'u'llah] , and after them to the House of Justice--should it be established in the world by then--"
So we see that He has envisioned the possibility of a House ruling without Aghshan authority, which is what has come to pass.


Cheers[/QUOTE]

Dear Fadl

Thank you for your well constructed response.

For those who criticize and speak of agenda's, the question must be raised, what is their agenda?
 
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