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Old 05-30-2015, 05:44 PM   #1
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Are we a Shia sect?

On the Shia forum they spoke of Mohammad and Ali as being manifestations of God. I noted other similarities also
 
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Old 05-30-2015, 06:18 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidan View Post
On the Shia forum they spoke of Mohammad and Ali as being manifestations of God. I noted other similarities also
Here is a thread from July, 2010, that addresses this.

http://bahaiforums.com/beliefs/2181-sunni-vs-shia.html
 
Old 05-30-2015, 10:52 PM   #3
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no Aidan
although Muslims think of Muhammad and Ali as manifestations of God, yet they don't believe that any prophet can be manifested again after Mohammad. in other words they believe that Mohammad is the last prophet and Islam the last religion
just like Christians we believe that Jesus had been a manifestation of God but does it mean that we are a Christian sect?
 
Old 05-31-2015, 03:18 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
no Aidan
although Muslims think of Muhammad and Ali as manifestations of God, yet they don't believe that any prophet can be manifested again after Mohammad. in other words they believe that Mohammad is the last prophet and Islam the last religion
just like Christians we believe that Jesus had been a manifestation of God but does it mean that we are a Christian sect?
Oh, what confusion. Ali as a manifestation of God! And yes, we have elucidatet that subject. They are right n a sense - there can be no prophet after Muhammad, because Bahá'u'lláh is something immensely more weighty.
 
Old 05-31-2015, 05:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh View Post
Here is a thread from July, 2010, that addresses this.

http://bahaiforums.com/beliefs/2181-sunni-vs-shia.html
An interesting read, thank you
 
Old 06-02-2015, 09:06 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
A sect is a subgroup of a religious, political or philosophical belief system, usually an offshoot of a larger religious group. Although in past it was mostly used to refer to religious groups, it has since expanded and in modern culture can refer to any organization that breaks away from a larger one to follow a different set of rules and principles. The term is occasionally used in a malicious way to suggest the broken-off group follows a more negative path than the original. The historical usage of the term sect in Christendom has had pejorative connotations, referring to a group or movement with heretical beliefs or practices that deviate from those of groups considered orthodox.
Technically and literally, yes. At least according to most of the definitions of "sect" I can find.

But in a less technical sense, not really. Shia sects are typically divided on which of the Imams are accepted or rejected by the sect in question, and I haven't seen a sect of Shia Islam that deviates from this trend. The majority are "Twelvers" since they believe the twelve Imams are the true Imams, with other sects being the Seveners (who agree with the Twelvers up to the Seventh Imam, but disagree afterwards on the succession of Imams) and Fivers (who agree up until the Fifth Imam).

The Baha'i Faith agrees with the Twelvers about the proper succession of Imams, so thus we don't really fit the standard or criteria for a "Shia sect", since the sect divisions of Shia Islam center on disagreements about the Imams, and our beliefs about the Imams are almost identical to the Twelvers, the only difference being we believe the Twelfth Imam came out of Occultation and was the Bab.
 
Old 06-02-2015, 01:25 PM   #7
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John the Baptist

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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
The Baha'i Faith agrees with the Twelvers about the proper succession of Imams, so thus we don't really fit the standard or criteria for a "Shia sect", since the sect divisions of Shia Islam center on disagreements about the Imams, and our beliefs about the Imams are almost identical to the Twelvers, the only difference being we believe the Twelfth Imam came out of Occultation and was the Bab.

And this is parallel to John the Baptist being the Return of the Prophet Elijah, which could then be considered the Occultation.

Similarly, in His letter to the Pope, Baha'u'llah says: "We have once again sent John unto you..."

. this is in reference to the Bab, which leads me to believe that John the Baptist was a Manifestation of God
 
Old 06-02-2015, 01:45 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dale ramsdell View Post
And this is parallel to John the Baptist being the Return of the Prophet Elijah, which could then be considered the Occultation.

Similarly, in His letter to the Pope, Baha'u'llah says: "We have once again sent John unto you..."

. this is in reference to the Bab, which leads me to believe that John the Baptist was a Manifestation of God
I agree with you on this, Dale. It is my understanding that John was the gateway to Jesus he heralded His coming, introducing the idea of a baptism into faith. The Bab, while introducing the Babi faith and giving us writings, also heralded the One who was to come after him. He was the gateway for Baha'u'llah. They both acted in accordance to God's will.
 
Old 06-02-2015, 05:10 PM   #9
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The Bab both proclaimed a new faith and also that someone greater than He was to follow. TheBaptist proclaimed someone greater than he was to follow but didn't proclaim a new faith supplanting Judaism
 
Old 06-02-2015, 05:20 PM   #10
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That's true, Aidan. It is what I said. Their connection is that they both said the One mankind was looking for was coming. I wonder if the semantics of prophet versus manifestation is confusing to me....they are both directed by God......
Loving regards,
Becky
 
Old 06-02-2015, 09:05 PM   #11
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Surah 6:159

[QUOTE=aidan;65535]
Regarding sects, Surah 6:159


Pickthall: Lo! As for those who sunder their religion and become schismatics, no concern at all hast thou with them. Their case will go to Allah, Who then will tell them what they used to do.

Yusuf Ali: As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.

Shakir: Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.

Three versions above from the Quran.

From Baha'u'llah,

. "This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it — verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures."
 
Old 06-21-2015, 05:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
no Aidan
although Muslims think of Muhammad and Ali as manifestations of God, yet they don't believe that any prophet can be manifested again after Mohammad. in other words they believe that Mohammad is the last prophet and Islam the last religion
just like Christians we believe that Jesus had been a manifestation of God but does it mean that we are a Christian sect?
Christians don't believe Jesus is a Manifestation of God, they believe He is an incarnation of God. As for Muslims, only Shi'ites have the concept of Manifestations but they extend it to include Imams as well. The Baha'i definition currently is much more limited. I say currently because the Iqan seems to use Manifestation more in the Shi'ite sense including Husayn as a Manifestation.
 
Old 06-21-2015, 05:20 PM   #13
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John the Baptist

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Originally Posted by smaneck View Post
Christians don't believe Jesus is a Manifestation of God, they believe He is an incarnation of God. As for Muslims, only Shi'ites have the concept of Manifestations but they extend it to include Imams as well. The Baha'i definition currently is much more limited. I say currently because the Iqan seems to use Manifestation more in the Shi'ite sense including Husayn as a Manifestation.

Susan,
. Here is a question for you. In His letter to the Pope, Baha'u'llah says: "We have once again sent John unto you..."

. Also, in the quote where He speaks of a series of martyrdoms of the Universal Manifestation, He speaks of "I was beheaded... I was crucified... My body was riddled with bullets... Again I was cast into prison..." etc

. To me, these references put John the Baptist in the company of the Manifestations of God.

. Whats your take on this?

. . . Here is the quote from Gleanings:

. "Praise be to Thee, O Lord My God, for the wondrous revelations of Thy inscrutable decree and the manifold woes and trials Thou hast destined for Myself. At one time Thou didst deliver Me into the hands of Nimrod; at another Thou hast allowed Pharaoh’s rod to persecute Me. Thou, alone, canst estimate, through Thine all-encompassing knowledge and the operation of Thy Will, the incalculable afflictions I have suffered at their hands. Again Thou didst cast Me into the prison-cell of the ungodly, for no reason except that I was moved to whisper into the ears of the well-favored denizens of Thy Kingdom an intimation of the vision with which Thou hadst, through Thy knowledge, inspired Me, and revealed 89 to Me its meaning through the potency of Thy might. And again Thou didst decree that I be beheaded by the sword of the infidel. Again I was crucified for having unveiled to men’s eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity, for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and everlasting power. How bitter the humiliations heaped upon Me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbilá! How lonely did I feel amidst Thy people! To what a state of helplessness I was reduced in that land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, My persecutors decapitated Me, and, carrying aloft My head from land to land paraded it before the gaze of the unbelieving multitude, and deposited it on the seats of the perverse and faithless. In a later age, I was suspended, and My breast was made a target to the darts of the malicious cruelty of My foes. My limbs were riddled with bullets, and My body was torn asunder. Finally, behold how, in this Day, My treacherous enemies have leagued themselves against Me, and are continually plotting to instill the venom of hate and malice into the souls of Thy servants. With all their might they are scheming to accomplish their purpose…. Grievous as is My plight, O God, My Well-Beloved, I render thanks unto Thee, and My Spirit is grateful for whatsoever hath befallen me in the path of Thy good-pleasure. I am well pleased with that which Thou didst ordain for Me, and welcome, however calamitous, the pains and sorrows I am made to suffer."
 
Old 06-22-2015, 02:20 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smaneck View Post
Christians don't believe Jesus is a Manifestation of God, they believe He is an incarnation of God. As for Muslims, only Shi'ites have the concept of Manifestations but they extend it to include Imams as well. The Baha'i definition currently is much more limited. I say currently because the Iqan seems to use Manifestation more in the Shi'ite sense including Husayn as a Manifestation.
Hello Susan,

Just to let you know I've arrived

Have a great day.

Paul
 
Old 06-23-2015, 08:47 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dale ramsdell View Post
Susan,
. Here is a question for you. In His letter to the Pope, Baha'u'llah says: "We have once again sent John unto you..."

. Also, in the quote where He speaks of a series of martyrdoms of the Universal Manifestation, He speaks of "I was beheaded... I was crucified... My body was riddled with bullets... Again I was cast into prison..." etc

. To me, these references put John the Baptist in the company of the Manifestations of God.
I think it is possible he was, but not necessarily based on this. The reference to beheading could be a reference to John the Baptist or to the Imam Husayn. I wouldn't so much say that Baha'u'llah was referring to the martyrdom of Universal Manifestation as he was speaking in the Universal station of all the Manifestations.

BTW, Dale. How'd you end up in California?

Last edited by smaneck; 06-23-2015 at 08:50 PM.
 
Old 06-23-2015, 08:48 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hello Susan,

Just to let you know I've arrived

Have a great day.

Paul
You have indeed. Paul is here to keep us all honest.

We're going to have fund.
 
Old 06-23-2015, 11:18 PM   #17
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The Universal Manifestation

Quote:
Originally Posted by smaneck View Post
I think it is possible he was, but not necessarily based on this. The reference to beheading could be a reference to John the Baptist or to the Imam Husayn. I wouldn't so much say that Baha'u'llah was referring to the martyrdom of Universal Manifestation as he was speaking in the Universal station of all the Manifestations.

BTW, Dale. How'd you end up in California?

There are two beheadings mentioned by Baha'u'llah. One mentioned before Jesus being crucified, and the other after and quite clearly the Imam Husayn. But alongside the first mention, it strikes me what He says in His letter to Pope Pius IX: "We have once again sent John unto you." referring to the Bab, His Herald, in the station of John the Baptist, the Herald of Jesus

The subject of the "Universal Manifestation" saying these things is quite extraordinary. The Bab elaborates on this recurrent theme, as the same sun rises on the horizon, etc.

So if we look past the human garment, which we perceive to be a seperate identity, then the One Universal Manifestation of God becomes apparent, returning in this Age "in this, His new attire".

. "How high the reward of him that hath not deprived himself of so great a bounty, nor failed to recognize the beauty of his Best-Beloved in this, His new attire."


I will PM the California thing...

Last edited by dale ramsdell; 06-23-2015 at 11:21 PM. Reason: .
 
Old 06-24-2015, 03:47 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smaneck View Post
I think it is possible he was, but not necessarily based on this. The reference to beheading could be a reference to John the Baptist or to the Imam Husayn. I wouldn't so much say that Baha'u'llah was referring to the martyrdom of Universal Manifestation as he was speaking in the Universal station of all the Manifestations.

BTW, Dale. How'd you end up in California?
Susan what do these terms mean Universal Manifestation and universal station?
 
Old 04-07-2016, 09:10 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dale ramsdell View Post
Susan,
. Here is a question for you. In His letter to the Pope, Baha'u'llah says: "We have once again sent John unto you..."

. Also, in the quote where He speaks of a series of martyrdoms of the Universal Manifestation, He speaks of "I was beheaded... I was crucified... My body was riddled with bullets... Again I was cast into prison..." etc

. To me, these references put John the Baptist in the company of the Manifestations of God.

. Whats your take on this?

. . . Here is the quote from Gleanings:

. "Praise be to Thee, O Lord My God, for the wondrous revelations of Thy inscrutable decree and the manifold woes and trials Thou hast destined for Myself. At one time Thou didst deliver Me into the hands of Nimrod; at another Thou hast allowed Pharaoh’s rod to persecute Me. Thou, alone, canst estimate, through Thine all-encompassing knowledge and the operation of Thy Will, the incalculable afflictions I have suffered at their hands. Again Thou didst cast Me into the prison-cell of the ungodly, for no reason except that I was moved to whisper into the ears of the well-favored denizens of Thy Kingdom an intimation of the vision with which Thou hadst, through Thy knowledge, inspired Me, and revealed 89 to Me its meaning through the potency of Thy might. And again Thou didst decree that I be beheaded by the sword of the infidel. Again I was crucified for having unveiled to men’s eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity, for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and everlasting power. How bitter the humiliations heaped upon Me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbilá! How lonely did I feel amidst Thy people! To what a state of helplessness I was reduced in that land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, My persecutors decapitated Me, and, carrying aloft My head from land to land paraded it before the gaze of the unbelieving multitude, and deposited it on the seats of the perverse and faithless. In a later age, I was suspended, and My breast was made a target to the darts of the malicious cruelty of My foes. My limbs were riddled with bullets, and My body was torn asunder. Finally, behold how, in this Day, My treacherous enemies have leagued themselves against Me, and are continually plotting to instill the venom of hate and malice into the souls of Thy servants. With all their might they are scheming to accomplish their purpose…. Grievous as is My plight, O God, My Well-Beloved, I render thanks unto Thee, and My Spirit is grateful for whatsoever hath befallen me in the path of Thy good-pleasure. I am well pleased with that which Thou didst ordain for Me, and welcome, however calamitous, the pains and sorrows I am made to suffer."
I came across this old thread and felt like adding a different perspective:

Baha'u'llah speaks of other religious figures as Himself. We could take this to mean that each were a Manifestation, but this is not a necessary conclusion. Consider what the Buddha said to His followers:

"Your suffering is my suffering and your happiness is my happiness."

And Jesus said to His disciples,

"Very truly I tell you, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me."

and

"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

I interpret that experiences of the followers are viewed as applying to the messengers that guide them, according to those messengers themselves. Therefore, Baha'u'llah can count as His own all of the sufferings of historical figures that were truly devout and suffered for the sake if the Religion of God, regardless of their individual stations.

Last edited by Neal; 04-07-2016 at 09:14 AM.
 
Old 05-22-2016, 10:56 AM   #20
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But surely Baha'u'llah wont't be the last prophet either they will be another after him correct?
 
Old 05-22-2016, 03:53 PM   #21
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Hello Jupitermadcat,

Yes, Baha'u'llah made it very clear that there would be a Manifestation of God after him, but not before the expiration of 1,000 years.
 
Old 05-23-2016, 01:28 PM   #22
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Twin Manefestations

[QUOTE=dale ramsdell;66103]There are two beheadings mentioned by Baha'u'llah. One mentioned before Jesus being crucified, and the other after and quite clearly the Imam Husayn. But alongside the first mention, it strikes me what He says in His letter to Pope Pius IX: "We have once again sent John unto you." referring to the Bab, His Herald, in the station of John the Baptist, the Herald of Jesus

The subject of the "Universal Manifestation" saying these things is quite extraordinary. The Bab elaborates on this recurrent theme, as the same sun rises on the horizon, etc.

So if we look past the human garment, which we perceive to be a seperate identity, then the One Universal Manifestation of God becomes apparent, returning in this Age "in this, His new attire".

. "How high the reward of him that hath not deprived himself of so great a bounty, nor failed to recognize the beauty of his Best-Beloved in this, His new attire."

Dear Dale, I would like to clarify something for myself.
Yes the Bab is likened to John the Baptist as a Herald But remember the Bab is much more than this, He has brought his own book and religion, this is not so with John the Baptist. The reason this time is the time of twin Manifestations, the first of its kind.
Loving thoughts to all.
bill
 
Old 05-23-2016, 02:30 PM   #23
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Someone heard Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) say:

“When the Qaim (a.s.) appears, those who have thought themselves as his followers will apostatize and those, who are somehow like the worshippers of the sun and the moon, will believe in him.”

Biharalanwar, vol. 52
 
Old 05-26-2016, 12:08 PM   #24
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I don't know in which sense is the statement "Manifestation of God" used here. But just saying so you know, if it is used in the sense that Ali ibn Abi Talib was a Prophet or a Messenger then it is not true. At least this is not what the Shi'a believe, neither the Sunnis. Ali ibn Abi Talib was the spiritual successor of Muhammad, but not a Prophet or a Messenger.
 
Old 05-26-2016, 12:56 PM   #25
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None of the 12 Imams to whom the spiritual responsibility was passed onto, successively, was a Prophet or a Messenger, except the 12th Imam who is Siyyid `Alí Muḥammad Shírází (His Holiness The Báb) who was a Messenger, as we all know, or a Manifestation of God as we Bahá'ís say it.

But according to Shi'a viewpoint, the 12th Imam is Muhammad ibn Hasan al-Mahdī who is believed to be concealed at the moment and will reveal himself and be the ultimate savior of humankind as they say it.

Now you understand the link between Shi'a Islam and the Baha'i Faith, if you didn't knew it before.

Other than that, as others have also mentioned, just like Shi'a we Baha'is also believe that Ali ibn Abi Talib was the rightful successor of Muhammad. Because of unmerited political happenings he wasn't chosen as the first Caliph, nonetheless, he was the spiritual authority and source of guidance. We Baha'is deeply respect the Holy Family of the Muhammad (Ahlul Bayt) and we, as per my knowledge, agree with the Shi'a account of events in the life of Muhammad and after his demise. We Baha'is also deeply respect the sacrifice of Imam Hussain (3rd Imam) and Bahá'u'lláh revealed very profound passages in honor of and in recognition of the sacrifice of Imam Hussain at Kerbala.


But the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion with its own principles and teachings (obviously the absolute spiritual teachings overlap) that are suited for this age. And so, we have differences with the Shi'a Islam which has become anachronistic. Among other aspects, the laws of Baha'i Faith have also changed. For instance, the Baha'i Faith has abolished the practice of congregational prayers.

Bottom-line: the claim that Baha'i Faith is a sect of Shi'a Islam is unreasonable.

Last edited by arcane; 05-28-2016 at 12:18 AM.
 
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