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Old 03-05-2016, 04:06 AM   #41
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@Niblo

Salam !

Quote:
I have to disagree with you when you say that the human body is divine: ‘Because (it) is made at the image of God.’

Scripture tells us that the body was created from the very earth. Science confirms our earthy origins: that we are made from a very wide range of elements, for example: carbon; calcium; oxygen; hydrogen; phosphorus; magnesium; iron; lead; copper; zinc; silver; gold; and arsenic!

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) does not have a body. He is spirit: ‘Every corporeal thing, being extended, is compound and has parts. But God is not compound: therefore He is not anything corporeal. With this demonstrated truth divine authority also agrees. For it is said: God is a spirit (John 4:24): To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, only God (1 Tim. 1:17): The invisible things of God are understood and discerned by the things that are made (Rom. 1:29).’ (Summa Contra Gentiles - St Thomas Aquinas: Chapter 20).

The Beloved knows and loves Himself. Man is the ‘image’ of the Beloved in the sense that of all earthly creatures he alone is able to know and to love his Creator; and in the sense that he - man - is possessed of soul that is spirit.
You are absolutely right.
But my point of view consists not of associating a human body with GOD. I am very attached to the teachings of Annick de Souzenelle (Orthidox Christian Mystic), who explores the Bible through the Judaic tradition and Jungian psychology.
She says that the Bible speaks of the Shape of God. According to Jewish Mystic, the divine body is the Tree of Sephirot, a series of receptacles meant to be filled with divine energy. The human body is made at the image of these divine energies :



I intend to read her book, The Body and its Symbolism.

Blessings.

GoaForce
 
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Old 03-05-2016, 05:40 AM   #42
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Hello Paul,

Here are my thoughts:

- That there are similarities between a poem and the Hadith, is not a proof, that the Qudsi Hadith is forgery. Many of the verses and stories of Quran surely have similarities with the expressions that were current among people of that time. God reveals the Truth, using expressions, parables...that people are familiar with. The Poem you quoted, itself is inspired by verses of Bible (Now you are the Body of Christ! - See Bible)

- The saying that is attributed to the Prophet, "I am He, and He is I except I am I and He is He" is not contradictory with Quran, when understood in the light of Quran. For example Quran declares "Allah is the Light of the World, The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp", and in another verse (33:46), it says the same thing about Muhammad. The Bible also says, Jesus is the Light of the World.

- The Quran and Bible, both say that God appeared in the form of a burning Bush. If these Books, say such a thing and is not considered blasphemy, why would it be blasphemy, if God also says, He is manifested as a Perfect Man? Why saying God appeared in a Bush is not Blasphemy, but He appeared in His Prophet is blasphemy?

- There are many verses in Bible, that Jesus says "Father and I are one", "the Father is in Me"....Even the Jewish Bible says, God made Moses as a God to Aaron and Pharaoh.

- The example of Mirror and the Sun, which is seen in Baha'i scriptures, actually rejects the idea that God has parts, and its parts moves down. It is to explain that the Sun of Reality does not move down to appear in the Mirror (Prophet), but Its image appears.

- That the Quran repeatedly rebukes the Christians that believed Jesus was God, must be seen within the context of history. The Christians did not believe that Jesus was a Mirror reflecting the Image of God. They believed Jesus was incarnation of God.
That, the Quran repeatedly says, Jesus and Muhammad are no more than a Prophet is True. Prophethood means being 'Mirror', being capable of reflecting the Light of God fully into this World, having all attributes of God, such as compassionate and merciful which Muhammad was according to Quran.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 03-05-2016 at 06:12 AM.
 
Old 03-05-2016, 05:54 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Hello Paul,

Here are my thoughts:

- That there are similarities between a poem and the Hadith, is not a proof, that the Qudsi Hadith is forgery. Many of the verses and stories of Quran surely have similarities with the expressions that were current among people of that time. God reveals the Truth, using expressions, parables...that people are familiar with.

- The saying that is attributed to the Prophet, "I am He, and He is I except I am I and He is He" is not contradictory with Quran, when understood in the light of Quran. For example Quran declares "Allah is the Light of the World, The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp", and in another verse (33:47), it says the same thing about Muhammad. The Bible also says, Jesus is the Light of the World.

- The Quran and Bible, both say that God appeared in the form of a burning Bush. If these Books, say such a thing and is not considered blasphemy, why would it be blasphemy, if God also says, He is manifested as a Perfect Man? Why saying God appeared in a Bush is not Blasphemy, but He appeared in His Prophet is blasphemy?

- There are many verses in Bible, that Jesus says "Father and I are one", "the Father is in Me"....Even the Jewish Bible says, God made Moses as a God to Aaron and Pharaoh.

- The example of Mirror and the Sun, which is seen in Baha'i scriptures, actually rejects the idea that God has parts, and its parts moves down. It is to explain that the Sun of Reality does not move down to appear in the Mirror (Prophet), but Its image appears.

- That the Quran repeatedly rebukes the Christians that believed Jesus was God, must be seen within the context of history. The Christians did not believe that Jesus was a Mirror reflecting the Image of God. They believed Jesus was incarnation of God.
That, the Quran repeatedly says, Jesus and Muhammad are no more than a Prophet is True. Prophethood means being 'Mirror', being capable of reflecting the Light of God fully into this World, having all attributes of God, such as compassionate and merciful which Muhammad was according to Quran.
very enjoyable explanation; thx
 
Old 03-05-2016, 06:37 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
@Niblo

Salam !



You are absolutely right.
But my point of view consists not of associating a human body with GOD. I am very attached to the teachings of Annick de Souzenelle (Orthidox Christian Mystic), who explores the Bible through the Judaic tradition and Jungian psychology.
She says that the Bible speaks of the Shape of God. According to Jewish Mystic, the divine body is the Tree of Sephirot, a series of receptacles meant to be filled with divine energy. The human body is made at the image of these divine energies :



I intend to read her book, The Body and its Symbolism.

Blessings.

GoaForce
As-Salāmu ‘Alaykum, GoaForce.

Thank you for your comments. I’m afraid I lack the imagination (some might say ‘vision’) to fully appreciate Kabbalistic symbolism.

I had a very good friend, name of Guy Jarrosson, from Lyon. I believe he was a son (perhaps the eldest child) of the French politician of the same name. My friend had been an officer in the French Navy, but eventually became a Little Brother of Jesus. The Order had a house in Leeds. I stayed there for a while. I seem to recall they had several books by Annick de Souzenelle; all in French (a language I have no knowledge of, I’m afraid!).

A funny tale: Guy had a brother who was a horse trainer at Chantilly. One year they decided to meet up at Newmarket racecourse (in England). Guy drove down in his battered, maroon, Ford Cortina and waited in a lay-by for his brother to arrive and lead him to the racecourse. Eventually a chauffeured Roll-Royce pulled up, with his brother in the back. Guy followed the Roller to the course, and into a car park reserved for owners. He had to be passed through security several times by his brother (the guards were very suspicious of Guy’s old car). In the end he parked up. In his own words: ‘And there they were….Rolls Royce; Bentley; Rolls Royce; Rolls Royce; Cortina; Rolls Royce!’ He die last year, bless him.

Take care, and very best regards.

Paul
 
Old 03-05-2016, 07:04 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Hello Paul,

Here are my thoughts:

- That there are similarities between a poem and the Hadith, is not a proof, that the Qudsi Hadith is forgery. Many of the verses and stories of Quran surely have similarities with the expressions that were current among people of that time. God reveals the Truth, using expressions, parables...that people are familiar with. The Poem you quoted, itself is inspired by verses of Bible (Now you are the Body of Christ! - See Bible)

- The saying that is attributed to the Prophet, "I am He, and He is I except I am I and He is He" is not contradictory with Quran, when understood in the light of Quran. For example Quran declares "Allah is the Light of the World, The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp", and in another verse (33:46), it says the same thing about Muhammad. The Bible also says, Jesus is the Light of the World.

- The Quran and Bible, both say that God appeared in the form of a burning Bush. If these Books, say such a thing and is not considered blasphemy, why would it be blasphemy, if God also says, He is manifested as a Perfect Man? Why saying God appeared in a Bush is not Blasphemy, but He appeared in His Prophet is blasphemy?

- There are many verses in Bible, that Jesus says "Father and I are one", "the Father is in Me"....Even the Jewish Bible says, God made Moses as a God to Aaron and Pharaoh.

- The example of Mirror and the Sun, which is seen in Baha'i scriptures, actually rejects the idea that God has parts, and its parts moves down. It is to explain that the Sun of Reality does not move down to appear in the Mirror (Prophet), but Its image appears.

- That the Quran repeatedly rebukes the Christians that believed Jesus was God, must be seen within the context of history. The Christians did not believe that Jesus was a Mirror reflecting the Image of God. They believed Jesus was incarnation of God.
That, the Quran repeatedly says, Jesus and Muhammad are no more than a Prophet is True. Prophethood means being 'Mirror', being capable of reflecting the Light of God fully into this World, having all attributes of God, such as compassionate and merciful which Muhammad was according to Quran.
Hello my friend

I didn’t say that the Hadith Qudsi you quoted is a forgery. All I said was that its message is reminiscent of Saint Teresa of Avila’s poem: ‘Christ has no body but yours’

The words: ‘I am He, and He is I except I am I and He is He’ are contradictory to the Qur’an if they are interpreted as a claim to divinity. That was my point entirely.

A bush - burning or otherwise - cannot blaspheme. My argument is that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) reveals His message through a Prophet, but does not become the Prophet. Prophets are not God incarnate; no matter how much certain folk would have us believe about a certain one of them!

The Qur’an ‘rebukes’ the Christians for believing that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was God, not because of any ‘context of history’, but because the Exalted does not become flesh.

If you believe that Prophets possess ‘all (the) attributes of God’ (your words…please remember that) then perhaps you can tell me which of them was: absolutely perfect; infinite in every perfection; absolutely simple (being pure spirit, without parts); absolutely immutable; eternal; everywhere present in created space. And what proof do you have that you are correct?

I await your reply with eagerness.

Very best regards,

Paul
 
Old 03-05-2016, 07:59 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hello my friend

I didn’t say that the Hadith Qudsi you quoted is a forgery. All I said was that its message is reminiscent of Saint Teresa of Avila’s poem: ‘Christ has no body but yours’

The words: ‘I am He, and He is I except I am I and He is He’ are contradictory to the Qur’an if they are interpreted as a claim to divinity. That was my point entirely.


A bush - burning or otherwise - cannot blaspheme. My argument is that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) reveals His message through a Prophet, but does not become the Prophet. Prophets are not God incarnate; no matter how much certain folk would have us believe about a certain one of them!
Then we are in agreement.

So, when God said on the Day of Resurrection, humanity meets Him, has no contradiction with the Baha'i belief, that humanity meets with the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who are His messengers, unless one believes, that God comes down in some physical 'form' from sky! But would not this idea contradict with Quran verse that says "No vision takes Him"!



- Also, Quran says on the Day of Resurrection, Allah comes down in the cloud, whereas, the Bible says, Christ comes down in the clouds!

- There are some Hadithes in Sunni collections, that, when God comes on the Day of Resurrection, people do not recognize Him, and they say to Him, we wait for Allah! Now, if literally Allah had a form and appeared, it is obvious according to Quran "No vision takes Him!"



Quote:
The Qur’an ‘rebukes’ the Christians for believing that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was God, not because of any ‘context of history’, but because the Exalted does not become flesh.
What I mean by context of History is, the fact that many of the verses of Quran were revealed to address the misunderstandings of the people that lived at the time. For example, if the Christians did not believe Jesus was God, would still Quran rebuke them with that regard?



Quote:
If you believe that Prophets possess ‘all (the) attributes of God’ (your words…please remember that) then perhaps you can tell me which of them was: absolutely perfect; infinite in every perfection; absolutely simple (being pure spirit, without parts); absolutely immutable; eternal; everywhere present in created space. And what proof do you have that you are correct?

I await your reply with eagerness.

Very best regards,

Paul
Speaking of proof!

Generally when discussing religions, the proofs are of two kinds:

- The scriptures are considered proofs. For example, if something is written in Quran, then discussion with a Muslim is a proof.

- Logical arguments. If for example Quran sets forth logical arguments to make a point, then to a fair-minded Christian, that should be a proof, even if the Christian may not already believe in Quran as the Words of God.


So, from the above two perspectives, here are some proofs:

"Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." Genesis 6:9

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1

"Verily you have in the Prophet of Allah an excellent model..." Quran

"And thou dost [o Muhammad], surely, possess sublime moral excellences." Quran



Here are some logical arguments given by Abdulbaha:

"How often the Prophets of God and His supreme Manifestations in Their prayers confess Their sins and faults! This is only to teach other men, to encourage and incite them to humility and meekness, and to induce them to confess their sins and faults. For these Holy Souls are pure from every sin and sanctified from faults. In the Gospel it is said that a man came to Christ and called Him “Good Master.” Christ answered, “Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but One, that is, God.”† This did not mean—God forbid!—that Christ was a sinner; but the intention was to teach submission, humility, meekness and modesty to the man to whom He spoke. These Holy Beings are lights, and light does not unite itself with darkness. They are life, and life and death are not confounded. They are for guidance, and guidance and error cannot be together. They are the essence of obedience, and obedience cannot exist with rebellion.
To conclude, the addresses in the form of reproach which are in the Holy Books, though apparently directed to the Prophets—that is to say, to the Manifestations of God—in reality are intended for the people. This will become evident and clear to you when you have diligently examined the Holy Books."


You can read more regarding this, in the Book "some answered questions":

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 167-170



- Now if by proof, we are searching in the life of prophets according to History, most of the Prophets are too far back, and there is little written in the history. But let's say Abdulbaha, Baha'u'llah and the Bab. There is alot written about them as they are closer t our time. Can we find any sin in them according to History? Their only accusation is, why they claimed to a new Revelation from God!
 
Old 03-05-2016, 08:20 AM   #47
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Paul,

Here are some more with regards to the Perfections of Prophets:

"Surely such a great Man, Who is the mediator of the Divine Bounty and the deliverer of the Law, must necessarily obey the commands of God. These Holy Souls are like the leaves of a tree which are put in motion by the blowing of the wind, and not by Their own desire; for They are attracted by the breeze of the love of God, and Their will is absolutely submissive. Their word is the word of God; Their commandment is the commandment of God; Their prohibition is the prohibition of God. They are like the glass globe which receives light from the lamp. Although the light appears to emanate from the glass, in reality it is shining from the lamp. In the same way for the Prophets of God, the centers of manifestation, Their movement and repose come from divine inspiration, not from human passions. If it were not so, how could the Prophet be worthy of trust, and how could He be the Messenger of God, delivering the commands and the prohibitions of God?

- Abdulbaha
 
Old 03-05-2016, 08:25 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Then we are in agreement.

- Now if by proof, we are searching in the life of prophets according to History, most of the Prophets are too far back, and there is little written in the history. But let's say Abdulbaha, Baha'u'llah and the Bab. There is alot written about them as they are closer t our time. Can we find any sin in them according to History? Their only accusation is, why they claimed to a new Revelation from God!
Ok, let’s make it easier for you. Take Baha'u'llah and the Bab: Which of these two possessed ‘all (the) attributes of God’; which of them was absolutely perfect; infinite in every perfection; absolutely simple (being pure spirit, without parts); absolutely immutable; eternal; everywhere present in created space. And what justification do you have that you are correct?

Take care!
 
Old 03-05-2016, 08:29 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Paul,

Here are some more with regards to the Perfections of Prophets:

"Surely such a great Man, Who is the mediator of the Divine Bounty and the deliverer of the Law, must necessarily obey the commands of God. These Holy Souls are like the leaves of a tree which are put in motion by the blowing of the wind, and not by Their own desire; for They are attracted by the breeze of the love of God, and Their will is absolutely submissive. Their word is the word of God; Their commandment is the commandment of God; Their prohibition is the prohibition of God. They are like the glass globe which receives light from the lamp. Although the light appears to emanate from the glass, in reality it is shining from the lamp. In the same way for the Prophets of God, the centers of manifestation, Their movement and repose come from divine inspiration, not from human passions. If it were not so, how could the Prophet be worthy of trust, and how could He be the Messenger of God, delivering the commands and the prohibitions of God?

- Abdulbaha
I have no problem with this. They were mortal men, selected by the Beloved for a particular purpose; and they carried out that purpose. All the while, though, they remained mortal men.....nothing more.
 
Old 03-05-2016, 08:50 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Ok, let’s make it easier for you. Take Baha'u'llah and the Bab: Which of these two possessed ‘all (the) attributes of God’; which of them was absolutely perfect; infinite in every perfection; absolutely simple (being pure spirit, without parts); absolutely immutable; eternal; everywhere present in created space. And what justification do you have that you are correct?

Take care!
Oh dear Paul, I think to be fair, you should address, the first part of my post....then we can go from there.
 
Old 03-05-2016, 08:51 AM   #51
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I have no problem with this. They were mortal men, selected by the Beloved for a particular purpose; and they carried out that purpose. All the while, though, they remained mortal men.....nothing more.

I am just wandering, do you believe in immortality of Soul?
 
Old 03-05-2016, 10:34 AM   #52
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Oh dear Paul, I think to be fair, you should address, the first part of my post....then we can go from there.
Hello again!

I loved your Freudian slip in Post 51; when you write that you are ‘wandering’ rather than ‘wondering’. Not so much ‘wandering’…more like ‘wriggling’.

I’m not at all sure what you mean by the ‘first part of (your) post’.

Since we are talking about your claim that the Prophets possess ‘all (the) attributes of God’ I assume you mean your references to Noah; to Job; and to Muhammad. I’m quite happy to agree (for the sake of progress) that each of these men was perfect in their role as Prophets. I’m even prepared to concede that each of them was perfect in character (after all, it’s not my role to judge).

The Vatican Council teaches that the Beloved is infinite in every perfection. The Bible indirectly expresses His absolute perfection by stressing His independence from all other substances, and His self sufficiency. It teaches that He contains within Himself all perfections. The Church Fathers present the Beloved’s absolute perfection as an essential, universal, perfection that transcends all human perfection.

St Irenaeus writes: ‘God is perfect in everything, like unto himself, all light, all reason, all essence, and the source of all goodness.’ (Against Heresies).

St John of Damascus taught that: ‘The Divine Essence is perfect; is in no way deficient in goodness, in wisdom and in power.. It is without beginning, without end, eternal,boundless - in short, absolutely perfect.’ (De Fide Orthodoxa).

This is what we mean when we speak about the Absolute Perfection that is Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla).

Now then…returning to Baha'u'llah and the Bab: Which of these two possessed ‘all (the) attributes of God’ which of them was absolutely perfect (as discussed above); infinite in every perfection; absolutely simple (being pure spirit, without parts); absolutely immutable; eternal; everywhere present in created space. And what justification do you have that you are correct?

Do I believe in the immortality of the soul? Of course. Natural reason proves that the soul is immortal by virtue of its natural simplicity. Since the soul (being spirit) is not composed of parts, it cannot be resolved into parts. On the other hand, it could be annihilated by the Beloved; returned to the nothingness from which it was created. However, the Beloved chooses not to do this; instead He has promised that every soul will be rewarded, or punished, according to its acts in this world.

Take care!
 
Old 03-05-2016, 01:51 PM   #53
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I meant post #46. You addressed the last part of it. What about the rest of it?



I offer this Quote as well:

"These Tabernacles of holiness, these primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest.
These attributes of God are not and have never been vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy, and chosen Messengers, are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others.”76 It hath therefore become manifest and evident that within the tabernacles of these Prophets and chosen Ones of God the light of His infinite names and exalted attributes hath been reflected, even though the light of some of these attributes may or may not be outwardly revealed from these luminous Temples to the eyes of men. That a certain attribute of God hath not been outwardly manifested by these Essences of Detachment doth in no wise imply that they Who are the Daysprings of God’s attributes and the Treasuries of His holy names did not actually possess it. Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like, even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty. To every discerning eye this is evident and manifest; it requireth neither proof nor evidence.
Yea, inasmuch as the peoples of the world have failed to seek from the luminous and crystal Springs of divine knowledge the inner meaning of God’s holy words, they therefore have languished, stricken and sore athirst, in the vale of idle fancy and waywardness. They have strayed far from the fresh and thirst-subduing waters, and gathered round the salt that burneth bitterly. Concerning them, the Dove of Eternity hath spoken: “And if they see the path of righteousness, they will not take it for their path; but if they see the path of error, for their path will they take it. This, because they treated Our signs as lies, and were heedless of them.”77
To this testifieth that which hath been witnessed in this wondrous and exalted Dispensation. Myriads of holy verses have descended from the heaven of might and grace, yet no one hath turned thereunto, nor ceased to cling to those words of men, not one letter of which they that have spoken them comprehend. For this reason the people have doubted incontestable truths, such as these, and caused themselves to be deprived of the Riḍván of divine knowledge, and the eternal meads of celestial wisdom."

- Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 03-05-2016 at 01:58 PM.
 
Old 03-05-2016, 08:33 PM   #54
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Neil: (sic)

...

According to the Baha’i, Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is unknowable without aid of revelation (I agree with that); and that revelation can come only through human beings (in the language of the Baha’i: through ‘divine manifestations.’). As I understand it, these manifestations include Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Yeshua, Buddha, Confucius, Muhammad, the Báb, and Baha’u’llah.
I haven't checked the next page of comments yet, but just in case I would correct this list. This is all my current understanding, and may be in error.

Zoroaster, Jesus (Yeshua, I presume), Buddha, Muhammad, the Báb, and Baha’u’llah may absolutely be considered as real Manifestations according to official Baha'i doctrine by Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, or Shoghi Effendi, and are supported by overwhelming historical evidence as having existed.

Adam, Abraham, and Moses, are also considered Manifestations, based on how Baha'u'llah references them in His own Writings, though their historiocity is more in question as I understand it. Noah is referenced by Baha'u'llah as having suffered through similar challenges as these Manifestations, but I don't personally think He implies that Noah was more than a lesser prophet, and I don't recall seeing Him mentioned as a "Manifestation" by the authoritative sources. It is demonstrated by Baha'i scholar Mirza Abu'l-Fad'l that Manifestations reveal knowledge and wisdom within our own frameworks of knowledge, and as such we need not rely on Scripture as historical fact. Therefore, Baha'u'llah using them as examples of Manifestations does not require us to insist they existed historically, but rather to better understand the nature of a Manifestation through the examples He illustrates using these known figures. (I personally believe that Noah has no historical basis, for instance, and that this does not contradict Baha'i theology as I understand it.)

I know less about Krishna, but He is definitely counted as a Manifestation by Shoghi Effendi, and therefore by the Baha'is. His historiocity is more in question academically, I believe, but the impact Krishna has had in religious history indicated to the Guardian that He must have originally been a Manifestation of God.

Confuscius is not considered a Manifestation of God. This is a common misconception promoted on misinformed or malicious sites. Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi only referred to him as a moral reformer, and Shoghi Effendi specifically stated he was not a Manifestation of God.
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
According to Baha’u’llah, (I understand), ‘normal human beings’ have two natures only (body and soul). However, the ‘manifestations of God’ have a third nature; namely the ‘spirit and attributes’ of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) reflected in them. It is this that makes them special.
While I don't see this explanation as overly problematic, in the sense that all attempts to explain the divine are flawed but can have value as teaching tools, it is not an explanation I would use based on my own readings of the Writings. Rather, I would call the Manifestation a man who is also blessed with dual spiritual natures, one of which is his personal spirit, and the other being the divine spirit bestowed especially by God, which is eternal and the same for all Manifestations. I don't think this second spirit is a part of God, a piece of God, or a valued fraction of God's own infinite Self. I believe that such an understanding is blasphemy, but forgivable blasphemy if made in earnest error. The reason this error is forgiveable (in my opinion) is because the Baha'i Writings indicate clearly (in my opinion) that relative to our own spiritual maturity and knowledge, the Manifestation appears as God. They are not God, but we can earnestly mistake them for God due to our naturally limited understanding of God, and the ability of the eternal Spirit within the Manifestation to exceed the limits of our comprehensions of the divine. So by our reckoning, they are as God, but in reality they are nothing compared to God, for they are not truly infinite and One in the same way that God is infinite and One.

I hope that my perspective is of interest. I can take time to support my beliefs if you like, though I would need to hunt down quotes and it might take some time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Have a great weekend, and very best regards.

Paul
You too, dear friend! Bless you for your continued patience and courtesy on these forums

Last edited by Neal; 03-05-2016 at 08:45 PM.
 
Old 03-05-2016, 09:06 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
I meant post #46. You addressed the last part of it. What about the rest of it?



I offer this Quote as well:

"These Tabernacles of holiness, these primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest.
These attributes of God are not and have never been vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy, and chosen Messengers, are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others.”76 It hath therefore become manifest and evident that within the tabernacles of these Prophets and chosen Ones of God the light of His infinite names and exalted attributes hath been reflected, even though the light of some of these attributes may or may not be outwardly revealed from these luminous Temples to the eyes of men. That a certain attribute of God hath not been outwardly manifested by these Essences of Detachment doth in no wise imply that they Who are the Daysprings of God’s attributes and the Treasuries of His holy names did not actually possess it. Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like, even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty. To every discerning eye this is evident and manifest; it requireth neither proof nor evidence.
Yea, inasmuch as the peoples of the world have failed to seek from the luminous and crystal Springs of divine knowledge the inner meaning of God’s holy words, they therefore have languished, stricken and sore athirst, in the vale of idle fancy and waywardness. They have strayed far from the fresh and thirst-subduing waters, and gathered round the salt that burneth bitterly. Concerning them, the Dove of Eternity hath spoken: “And if they see the path of righteousness, they will not take it for their path; but if they see the path of error, for their path will they take it. This, because they treated Our signs as lies, and were heedless of them.”77
To this testifieth that which hath been witnessed in this wondrous and exalted Dispensation. Myriads of holy verses have descended from the heaven of might and grace, yet no one hath turned thereunto, nor ceased to cling to those words of men, not one letter of which they that have spoken them comprehend. For this reason the people have doubted incontestable truths, such as these, and caused themselves to be deprived of the Riḍván of divine knowledge, and the eternal meads of celestial wisdom."

- Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude.
Hello again.

Returning to Post 46:

We are in agreement that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) reveals His message through a prophet, but does not become the prophet.

We are in agreement that prophets are not God incarnate; no matter how much certain folk would have us believe about a certain one of them!

You write:

‘So, when God said on the Day of Resurrection, humanity meets Him, has no contradiction with the Baha'i belief, that humanity meets with the Bab and, who are His messengers, unless one believes, that God comes down in some physical 'form' from sky! But would not this idea contradict with Quran verse that says "No vision takes Him"!

Here is the verse you refer to, set in its context: ‘This is Allāh, your Lord, there is no God but Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him; He is in charge of everything. No vision can take Him in, but He takes in all vision. He is the All Subtle, the All Aware.’ (Al-An‘am: 102-103).

The words: ‘No vision can take Him in, but He takes in all vision’ are an illustration of our powerlessness compared with Him.

Comment:

The whole of humanity will stand before Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) on the Day of Judgement, having been resurrected from their graves. This mass of humanity will include the Báb and Baha'u'llah; two ordinary men, standing with other ordinary people, awaiting their fate.

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) does not ‘come down in some physical form from sky’ On this we are agreed.

You write: ‘Also, Quran says on the Day of Resurrection, Allah comes down in the cloud, whereas, the Bible says, Christ comes down in the clouds!

Where in the Qur’an does it say that on the Day of Resurrection Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) will ‘come down in the cloud’? Perhaps you are getting a wee bit confused over this verse: ‘It is Allāh who sends forth the winds; they raise up the clouds; We drive them to a dead land and with them revive the earth after its death: such will be the Resurrection.’ (Fatir: 9).

You write:

‘There are some Hadithes in Sunni collections, that, when God comes on the Day of Resurrection, people do not recognize Him, and they say to Him, we wait for Allah! Now, if literally Allah had a form and appeared, it is obvious according to Quran "No vision takes Him!"

Comment:

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said: ‘And it is proven in the books of Sahih in more than one ahadith that Allāh will appear to His slaves in the place of standing when it is said: “Let every people follow that which they used to worship.” So the mushrikeen will follow their gods and the believers will be left. Then the Lord will appear to them in a form other than that which they know, and they will not recognize Him.’ (Majmu al-Fatwa al-Kubra).

According to the Shaykh the polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allāh, those who worship others along with Allāh, and also those who set up rivals with (or partners to) Allāh will expect to see the gods they have believed in. When the Beloved appears in His true form they do not recognise Him. Make of that what you will.
I wrote: ‘The Qur’an ‘rebukes’ the Christians for believing that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was God, not because of any ‘context of history’, but because the Exalted does not become flesh.’

You replied: ‘Many of the verses of Quran were revealed to address the misunderstandings of the people that lived at the time. For example, if the Christians did not believe Jesus was God, would still Quran rebuke them with that regard?

No!

You then went on to describe various proofs from Scripture. I’ve dealt with these.

Rather than answer my question you offered a quote from Baha'u'llah. Here’s the relevant section of that quote:

‘Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like, even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty.’

Baha'u'llah claimed to be a ‘manifestation’; and is accepted as such by the Baha’i. Clearly, therefore, his claim that each of these ‘illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God’ is meant to be applied to himself.

In what way was Baha'u'llah absolutely simple; of infinite and pure spirit, having no bodily parts?

In what way was Baha'u'llah absolutely immutable; not subject or susceptible to change or variation in form or quality or nature?

In what way was Baha'u'llah everywhere present in created space; and, being eternal, is to this very day everywhere present in created space?

In what way did Baha'u'llah hold sovereignty and dominion over the entire universe?

In what way was Baha'u'llah omnipotent?

Have a great day.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 12:40 AM   #56
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Oh, this is really serious. When the discussion reaches this point, I usually sneak out into the kitchen to prepare coffee, tea and buscuits.

gnat
 
Old 03-06-2016, 01:20 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
Oh, this is really serious. When the discussion reaches this point, I usually sneak out into the kitchen to prepare coffee, tea and buscuits.

gnat
Me too....minus the tea. Enjoy.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 02:56 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Neal View Post
I haven't checked the next page of comments yet, but just in case I would correct this list. This is all my current understanding, and may be in error.

Zoroaster, Jesus (Yeshua, I presume), Buddha, Muhammad, the Báb, and Baha’u’llah may absolutely be considered as real Manifestations according to official Baha'i doctrine by Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, or Shoghi Effendi, and are supported by overwhelming historical evidence as having existed.

Adam, Abraham, and Moses, are also considered Manifestations, based on how Baha'u'llah references them in His own Writings, though their historiocity is more in question as I understand it. Noah is referenced by Baha'u'llah as having suffered through similar challenges as these Manifestations, but I don't personally think He implies that Noah was more than a lesser prophet, and I don't recall seeing Him mentioned as a "Manifestation" by the authoritative sources. It is demonstrated by Baha'i scholar Mirza Abu'l-Fad'l that Manifestations reveal knowledge and wisdom within our own frameworks of knowledge, and as such we need not rely on Scripture as historical fact. Therefore, Baha'u'llah using them as examples of Manifestations does not require us to insist they existed historically, but rather to better understand the nature of a Manifestation through the examples He illustrates using these known figures. (I personally believe that Noah has no historical basis, for instance, and that this does not contradict Baha'i theology as I understand it.)

I know less about Krishna, but He is definitely counted as a Manifestation by Shoghi Effendi, and therefore by the Baha'is. His historiocity is more in question academically, I believe, but the impact Krishna has had in religious history indicated to the Guardian that He must have originally been a Manifestation of God.

Confuscius is not considered a Manifestation of God. This is a common misconception promoted on misinformed or malicious sites. Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi only referred to him as a moral reformer, and Shoghi Effendi specifically stated he was not a Manifestation of God.

While I don't see this explanation as overly problematic, in the sense that all attempts to explain the divine are flawed but can have value as teaching tools, it is not an explanation I would use based on my own readings of the Writings. Rather, I would call the Manifestation a man who is also blessed with dual spiritual natures, one of which is his personal spirit, and the other being the divine spirit bestowed especially by God, which is eternal and the same for all Manifestations. I don't think this second spirit is a part of God, a piece of God, or a valued fraction of God's own infinite Self. I believe that such an understanding is blasphemy, but forgivable blasphemy if made in earnest error. The reason this error is forgiveable (in my opinion) is because the Baha'i Writings indicate clearly (in my opinion) that relative to our own spiritual maturity and knowledge, the Manifestation appears as God. They are not God, but we can earnestly mistake them for God due to our naturally limited understanding of God, and the ability of the eternal Spirit within the Manifestation to exceed the limits of our comprehensions of the divine. So by our reckoning, they are as God, but in reality they are nothing compared to God, for they are not truly infinite and One in the same way that God is infinite and One.

I hope that my perspective is of interest. I can take time to support my beliefs if you like, though I would need to hunt down quotes and it might take some time.

You too, dear friend! Bless you for your continued patience and courtesy on these forums
Hello NEAL.

Got it right this time (must have been thinking of my cousin. He’s a Neil!) Sorry.

Thank you for the corrected list of Manifestations. I have no doubt that Zoroaster, Yeshua (Jesus), Buddha and Muhammad existed. As did the Báb and Baha’u’llah, of course.

I know there is disagreement as to the existence of Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Noah. I was informed, many years ago, that Adam was not a single person, but rather a representative of the human race as a whole. That seems reasonable; and I’ve no argument either way. I am more inclined, however, to accept the historical reality of Abraham, Moses, and Noah; but not necessarily every detail of the events associated with them.

Like you, I know little about Krishna. As for Confucius being a Manifestation; I can’t recall where I got that information from. Am happy to accept that he wasn’t.

You will have noticed that I’m having a wee discussion with Investigate as to the nature of Manifestations. I would welcome you input.

I’m more than happy to accept that people (and not just ‘manifestations’) can reflect certain attributes of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) in what they say and do. It has been my privilege to know, and to love a number of them; people who were shining examples of all that is best in their particular Faith. But to claim that these wonderful people were in any way divine would, as you say, be blasphemy. Most certainly, none of them would ever have sanctioned that particular notion.

There’s no need, at this stage, for you to ‘support (your) beliefs’. That need might well arise…..depending on what you have to say!

In the meantime, may Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) bless you, and keep you safe.

Very best regards,

Paul
 
Old 03-06-2016, 03:38 AM   #59
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One of the issues I have in exploring this subject is that I don't know what the word "divine" implies. I sometimes use this word and sometimes avoid it, because sometimes i feel like it means "holy" or "mysterious," and other times i think it refers to a supreme reality or being of supernatural power. Perhaps if I know what "divine" means to you, I will be able to explore whether a Manifestation or the prophets qualify.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 03:41 AM   #60
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If you give an explanation, please include how Gabriel fits into the spectrum.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 04:42 AM   #61
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Concerning the human body, Bahá'u'lláh calls it "the human temple" - that is, something made from earthly materials to be used for worship.

gnat
 
Old 03-06-2016, 05:02 AM   #62
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Hello Paul,

Quote:
The words: ‘No vision can take Him in, but He takes in all vision’ are an illustration of our powerlessness compared with Him.
It does show our powerlessness, however, specifically the verse is talking about 'vision', meaning the ability to see God. The verse says, God sees all, but No One, can see God!

Other verses of Quran such as 7:143 shows this:
' Allah said: "You cannot see Me. (7:143)




Quote:
The whole of humanity will stand before Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) on the Day of Judgement, having been resurrected from their graves. This mass of humanity will include the Báb and Baha'u'llah; two ordinary men, standing with other ordinary people, awaiting their fate.
Regarding if the signs of Day of Resurrection, such as Rising of the Dead, falling stars,...etc, was to pass in a physical sense, or symbolically, we already discussed this:

http://bahaiforums.com/teachings/121...-muslim-2.html




Quote:
Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) does not ‘come down in some physical form from sky’ On this we are agreed.

You write: ‘Also, Quran says on the Day of Resurrection, Allah comes down in the cloud, whereas, the Bible says, Christ comes down in the clouds!

Where in the Qur’an does it say that on the Day of Resurrection Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) will ‘come down in the cloud’? Perhaps you are getting a wee bit confused over this verse: ‘It is Allāh who sends forth the winds; they raise up the clouds; We drive them to a dead land and with them revive the earth after its death: such will be the Resurrection.’ (Fatir: 9).
I was talking about this verse:

“What can such expect but that God should come down to them overshadowed with clouds?”Qur’án 2:210



We Notice in Bible, regarding signs of the end and return of Christ it says:

"they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"


Here are two Hadithes:


Ibn 'Omar said, "The Prophet mentioned the Dajjal to the people. He said, "Allah is not one-eyed, but the Dajjal is blind in his right eye, and his eye is like a floating grape.'" (Muslim)

Anas Ibn Malik said, "The Prophet said, 'there has never been a Prophet who did not warn his people against that one-eyed liar. Verily he is one-eyed and your Lord is not one-eyed. On his forehead will be written the letter Kaf, Fa, Ra (Kafir).'" (Muslim, al-Bukhari)




- From these Hadithes, and verses of Bible and Quran, it is obvious, Allah would come down on the earth!
- Prophet is giving sign to differentiate between Dajjal and Allah, by saying Allah is not one-eyed!
- From equating The verse of Quran and Bible, and considering these Hadithes, Return of Christ, is that same Meeting with Allah! Otherwise, if Allah comes down literally on the last day of the earth, and then everyone leaves the earth to heavean or hell, why the Hadith denotes Dajjal is there to deceive people at the same time Allah is? The appearance of Dajjal is related to return of Christ! but the Hadith is relating it to Meeting with Allah!

As verse of Quran says, God told Moses, He cannot see Him. Then how can God come down?







Quote:
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said: ‘And it is proven in the books of Sahih in more than one ahadith that Allāh will appear to His slaves in the place of standing when it is said: “Let every people follow that which they used to worship.” So the mushrikeen will follow their gods and the believers will be left. Then the Lord will appear to them in a form other than that which they know, and they will not recognize Him.’ (Majmu al-Fatwa al-Kubra).
How reasonable it is, that if Allah with all His majesty and power appear, and come down to earth, yet, people do not recognize Him?

From all the mentioned Hadithes and verses, It is obvious to me, Christ, is that same Manifestation of Allah! Notice, we are not talking about incarnation of Allah! We are talking Manifestation, as we have already shown by verses of Quran and Hadithes, Allah can Manifest Himself in His Prophet!

Moreover, if it was possible that Allah literally come down, then why He always sent His Messengers? Why He did not appear directly to give His message? If we look at the verses of Bible, it also say, God is invisible:

"Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation" Colossians 1:15

Notice Bible also calles Christ 'Image of God'! Consistent with what Baha'i Scriptures and Quran says. That Quran and Hadithes calls Christ, 'Spirit of God', does not mean, that other Messengers such as Moses, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah are not 'Spirit of God'!
 
Old 03-06-2016, 05:02 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla), being spirit and being simple, cannot be divided. If I cup my hands together I contain Him entirely; and yet I am contained within Him; along with the whole of creation.
I am not sure I understand the assertion that you can contain God within the cups of your hands.

I understand that nothing is impossible to God. The barrier between me accepting your statement, however, is that I don't believe that God is composed of the materials of our reality, and as such I don't understand how he exists in our dimensions. This is in contrast, for example, to the beliefs of a Mormon, who believes that God and Jesus are made of spiritual matter that we simply have not detected yet (if I understand Mormons correctly). I believe that the physical universe is its own universe, created by God, and that all dimensions of space and time within which matter exist are creations of God within that universe. How can God wholly fit inside that framework?

As such, the statement, "If I cup my hands together I contain Him (God) entirely," does not make sense to me.

If I take this claim figuratively, I can see some poetic wisdom and relative truth in it. If I think of God as the source of all knowledge, then I agree that all of our knowledge can be contained in our hands, in that the knowledge of the universe exists in the atoms. I believe that our universe is fractal in its laws, and that things that hold true at the molecular level hold true at the cosmic level, and at all levels in between. A water droplet gives you knowledge of the Ocean, if you mine its depths, and a helium atom gives you knowledge of the Sun.

But to take your statement literally and at outward meaning is not so much blasphemy (because if God willed it then it would be possible) as confounding (I don't see how it is true).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
There is no place where the Exalted cannot be; and therefore He can never be remote from us: ‘We created man - We know what his soul whispers to him: We are closer to him than his jugular vein.’ (Qaf: 17). So how is it He can dwell in the ‘manifestation’ in some special manner, but not in GoaForce, or in Neil, or in any other person in the self same manner?
Since I do not understand how God can be wholly contained within His creation, I do not believe (at this time) that God "dwells in the Manifestation" in a literal sense. I can except this statement figuratively as a relative truth only.

A fundamental understanding I have of the Scriptures is that religious truth, as revealed to us, must be relative truth, and almost all statements in Scriptures must be false if held to the standards of Absolute Truth. This is because Absolute Truth cannot be contained in human words. Only God knows all, and only He comprehends. I believe this is why the Scriptures contain seeming theological contradictions. Since the absolute truth is incomprehensible, we must be told multiple relative truths, which outwardly contradict each other according to our current framework of knowledge. As these relative truths combine to bestow new knowledge, our frameworks of ideas and language expand. By the time the next Manfestation appears, they have a new framework they may use to teach. New relative truths are revealed, along with new contradictions, and our knowledge expands to include these truths.

I believe the Manifestations are men who are given a glimpse of God's knowledge, and who channel Him for us (so to speak). They are messengers/representatives of God, because God cannot present Himself to us in His absolute form. Such would not make sense to us if it happened. It would be incomprehensible, overwhelming, and probably mind-shattering. But He can send messengers or representatives to reveal Him to a degree within our capacity. God "dwells in them" in this sense. The Holy Spirit that descended upon Jesus after His baptism was not God in His entirety, because the Most High does not descend, but is an expression of the beginning of the bond that gave Jesus the authority to speak for God. Before this moment He was just a man of relative perfection (kind, truthful, pious, etc). After this bond, Jesus was still that man. But when we turn to Jesus, we also turn to this descended spirit, this link to God. And Jesus, that man who was blessed with this gift, was privy to knowledge and insights that we will never know.

Did Jesus know all? No. His mind could never contain all knowledge, no more than mine could.

Could Jesus know anything? Yes. Not because He willed it, but because God may have allowed it.

So, was Jesus Omniscient? Well, depends on how you use the word. He could know anything, at God's pleasure, yet this did not come from Him and was not of His doing, and not all knowledge could be "contained" by His mind. So He never knew all. But there was nothing He couldn't know. Thus, it is true to say Jesus was Omniscient, and it is true to say He was not Omniscient.

Last edited by Neal; 03-06-2016 at 05:07 AM.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 05:06 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Ok, let’s make it easier for you. Take Baha'u'llah and the Bab: Which of these two possessed ‘all (the) attributes of God’; which of them was absolutely perfect; infinite in every perfection; absolutely simple (being pure spirit, without parts); absolutely immutable; eternal; everywhere present in created space. And what justification do you have that you are correct?

Take care!
Dear Paul,

I have already answered your question, that All Manifestations of God, including the Bab and Baha'u'llah, posses all the Names and Attributes of God.


You ask me, what evidence or justification I have.

First, let me ask you, what evidence or justifications are there that God Himself possesses these Names and attributes? It is true, that Scriptures says so, but other than what is said in scriptures, what evidence and justifications are out there, that God Himself possesses all these Attributes?
 
Old 03-06-2016, 05:17 AM   #65
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Niblo,

To expand a bit more on your question,

"So how is it He can dwell in the ‘manifestation’ in some special manner, but not in GoaForce, or in Neil, or in any other person in the self same manner?"


He can. But He doesn't. He chose them, not us. It not my place to ask why Muhammad was His chosen servant. God only gives us what we need, for it is God that decides what we need. We only need God to do this from time to time, from age to age, with one soul. How weak must we be in spiritual perception and faith to require God to especially "dwell" in each of us in order to believe? No, we only need God to "dwell among us" after His light has ceased to be shed on us from His last Manifestation.

That said, even if a thousand years had passed since Baha'u'llah's time on Earth, I doubt I would be chosen by God. I do not possess the piety and humility of Jesus, Muhammad, or Mirza Husayn Ali. Surely another would be chosen/destined. Then again, God did chose a murderer once, in the person of Moses, but it is not for me to question Him. Besides, Moses felt really bad and had definitely turned a new leaf by then.

Last edited by Neal; 03-06-2016 at 06:30 AM.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 05:42 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Neal View Post
One of the issues I have in exploring this subject is that I don't know what the word "divine" implies. I sometimes use this word and sometimes avoid it, because sometimes i feel like it means "holy" or "mysterious," and other times i think it refers to a supreme reality or being of supernatural power. Perhaps if I know what "divine" means to you, I will be able to explore whether a Manifestation or the prophets qualify.
Hi Neal.

Excellent question. Thank you.

I understand the word ‘divine’ to mean having the very nature of God; possessing all the Divine Attributes; these being identical among themselves and with the Divine Essence. This is possible only because of the absolute simplicity of God. He has no parts, and therefore cannot be reduced (compartmentalised, so to speak).

In short: Divine equals God (and only God). He is unique: ‘How can they take protectors other than Him? Allāh alone is the Protector; He gives life to the dead; He has power over all things. Whatever you may differ about is for Allāh to judge. (Say): “Such is Allāh, my Lord. In Him I trust and to Him I turn, the Creator of the heavens and earth.”……. There is nothing like Him: He is the All Hearing, the All Seeing. The keys of the heavens and the earth are His; He provides abundantly or sparingly for whoever He will; He has full knowledge of all things.’ (Al-Shura: 9-12).

No prophet or manifestation qualifies! Anyone who says so has failed to understand the nature of the Godhead (not that we can ever fully understand; but yet we understand enough).


Gabriel: An angel. Pure spirit; but finite. Immortal on account of their pure spirituality. Possessing understanding and freewill (Christian notion); possessing understanding, but without freewill (Islamic notion). They do not know the secrets of God; do not possess knowledge of the heart; and have no certain foreknowledge of the free actions of the future. They are NOT divine!

I hope this helps.

Paul
 
Old 03-06-2016, 05:43 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Take Baha'u'llah and the Bab: Which of these two possessed ‘all (the) attributes of God’; which of them was absolutely perfect; infinite in every perfection; absolutely simple (being pure spirit, without parts); absolutely immutable; eternal; everywhere present in created space.
I cannot speak for Investigate Truth, but I can offer my complementary perspective. Based on how you are using these terms, Niblo, I do not believe that these men were "absolutely" perfect. I believe they sometimes spoke of perfection when they spoke for God, and if they spoke for God then they could speak of Absolute Perfection, and could call on us to look at them to see these perfections. And I believe that relative to us, they were perfect men. For that matter, I believe that relative to the Arabians, Muhammad was a perfect man. But he was just a man, even though He manifested God in His time.

Consider the quote Investigate Truth shared.

"By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest."

How are all the names and attributes made manifest in these men? Because we can identify these qualities exemplified in them by human standards. These men were nearly perfect men before God Manifested in them, and after He manifested, they became ever aware of all the names and attributes, to the degree God willed, and knew by what standards they must live to be shining examples unto all mankind. Thus, when we turn to them, we see all the names and attributes that we can possibly see, and by that measure, "all" of them. The Báb, after Manifesting God, had the perfect qualities of a respectable and honorable Shi'a Muslim living in 19th century Persia. He was the unapproachable ideal Bábí. He was also God's messenger, a man revealing God's Word for that day, and this made Him unique among His devout followers. Baha'u'llah was greatly humble and charitable before Manifesting, and after He Manifested He was much more so. He was the Perfect Baha'i by most standards (more on that in a moment), and He was also the bearer of God's word. As the revealer of God's Word, He was God's messenger. But since He knew how to be the perfect Baha'i, He also bore "all of God's names and attributes" of which we can be aware and try to exemplify.

I qualify that Baha'u'llah was the Perfect Baha'i "by most standards" because I want to be cautious in my statements, and not because I wish to undermine His perfections. Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophesied roles of the Lord of Hosts, and as such He separated the good from vile, and wrote many Tablets to the rulers in His day. In was His duty and mission from God to be direct and harsh in ways that Baha'is should not, such as publicly criticizing political officials. By Manifesting God on Earth, He had an authority to do things that Baha'is cannot do within Baha'i law. However, Baha'u'llah and God gave us the gift of Abdu'l-Baha, who was the perfect Baha'i, so that we have a surrogate role model for our standards.

Last edited by Neal; 03-06-2016 at 05:46 AM.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 05:45 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
So how is it He can dwell in the ‘manifestation’ in some special manner, but not in GoaForce, or in Neil, or in any other person in the self same manner?

This is a good question, and I agree with Neal.

Here is my farther reply:

Based on Baha'i Scriptures, the creation of God may be divided into 5 main category:

1. Minerals
2. Plants
3. Animals
4. Human
5. Manifestations


In this ranking, each category, has more in comparison with previous category. For example, the Human has the power of mind, which the others don't have. We believe Manifestations in this Hierarchy are in a higher level. Their Spirit is like a pure and clean Mirror that can naturally reflect the Attributes and Will of God into the World.
Regular human, have a different spiritual nature. But if we also clean the Mirror of our Spirit, we can also to a lesser degree reflect the attributes and Will of God. Abdulbaha, is an example of a regular human, that has reached such a high station! Notice, according to history, Abdulbaha, spent most of his life in prison and had no education! Yet He knew about all subjects as you can investigate yourself. That proves, if we clean the Mirror of our heart, we also, like Abdulbaha, become recipients of the knowledge of God!
 
Old 03-06-2016, 05:49 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Dear Paul,

I have already answered your question, that All Manifestations of God, including the Bab and Baha'u'llah, posses all the Names and Attributes of God.


You ask me, what evidence or justification I have.

First, let me ask you, what evidence or justifications are there that God Himself possesses these Names and attributes? It is true, that Scriptures says so, but other than what is said in scriptures, what evidence and justifications are out there, that God Himself possesses all these Attributes?
Please answer these questions (without waffle):

In what way was Baha'u'llah absolutely simple; of infinite and pure spirit, having no bodily parts?

In what way was Baha'u'llah absolutely immutable; not subject or susceptible to change or variation in form or quality or nature?

In what way was Baha'u'llah everywhere present in created space; and, being eternal, is to this very day everywhere present in created space?

In what way did Baha'u'llah hold sovereignty and dominion over the entire universe?

In what way was Baha'u'llah omnipotent?

If you have no desire to answer these, then simply write: 'We must agree to differ'; and that will be the end of the matter, I promise you.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 05:50 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hi Neal.

Excellent question. Thank you.

I understand the word ‘divine’ to mean having the very nature of God; possessing all the Divine Attributes; these being identical among themselves and with the Divine Essence. This is possible only because of the absolute simplicity of God. He has no parts, and therefore cannot be reduced (compartmentalised, so to speak).

In short: Divine equals God (and only God). He is unique: ‘How can they take protectors other than Him? Allāh alone is the Protector; He gives life to the dead; He has power over all things. Whatever you may differ about is for Allāh to judge. (Say): “Such is Allāh, my Lord. In Him I trust and to Him I turn, the Creator of the heavens and earth.”……. There is nothing like Him: He is the All Hearing, the All Seeing. The keys of the heavens and the earth are His; He provides abundantly or sparingly for whoever He will; He has full knowledge of all things.’ (Al-Shura: 9-12).

No prophet or manifestation qualifies! Anyone who says so has failed to understand the nature of the Godhead (not that we can ever fully understand; but yet we understand enough).


Gabriel: An angel. Pure spirit; but finite. Immortal on account of their pure spirituality. Possessing understanding and freewill (Christian notion); possessing understanding, but without freewill (Islamic notion). They do not know the secrets of God; do not possess knowledge of the heart; and have no certain foreknowledge of the free actions of the future. They are NOT divine!

I hope this helps.

Paul
Thank you Paul!

When I read my Qur'an, this is the understanding I share of the term as Muhammad spoke it when He said Jesus was not divine. I agree that according to this definition, Baha'u'llah was not divine either.

Outside of the Qur'anic framework, such as in the Christian framework, I use the word divine to mean "greater than material and good." In this framework, Angels and Manifestations qualify as divine, as do human souls.

Not that Manifestations have human souls greater than mine, but that they are relatively more pure human souls, and that they have a special station due to their bond with God. They are the most exalted of humans, and we "see God" when we look at them, so therefore we see the divine.

Last edited by Neal; 03-06-2016 at 06:38 AM.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 05:52 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Neal View Post
I cannot speak for Investigate Truth, but I can offer my complementary perspective. Based on how you are using these terms, Niblo, I do not believe that these men were "absolutely" perfect. I believe they sometimes spoke of perfection when they spoke for God, and if they spoke for God then they could speak of Absolute Perfection, and could call on us to look at them to see these perfections. And I believe that relative to us, they were perfect men. For that matter, I believe that relative to the Arabians, Muhammad was a perfect man. But he was just a man, even though He manifested God in His time.

Consider the quote Investigate Truth shared.

"By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest."

How are all the names and attributes made manifest in these men? Because we can identify these qualities exemplified in them by human standards. These men were nearly perfect men before God Manifested in them, and after He manifested, they became ever aware of all the names and attributes, to the degree God willed, and knew by what standards they must live to be shining examples unto all mankind. Thus, when we turn to them, we see all the names and attributes that we can possibly see, and by that measure, "all" of them. The Báb, after Manifesting God, had the perfect qualities of a respectable and honorable Shi'a Muslim living in 19th century Persia. He was the unapproachable ideal Bábí. He was also God's messenger, a man revealing God's Word for that day, and this made Him unique among His devout followers. Baha'u'llah was greatly humble and charitable before Manifesting, and after He Manifested He was much more so. He was the Perfect Baha'i by most standards (more on that in a moment), and He was also the bearer of God's word. As the revealer of God's Word, He was God's messenger. But since He knew how to be the perfect Baha'i, He also bore "all of God's names and attributes" of which we can be aware and try to exemplify.

I qualify that Baha'u'llah was the Perfect Baha'i "by most standards" because I want to be cautious in my statements, and not because I wish to undermine His perfections. Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophesied roles of the Lord of Hosts, and as such He separated the good from vile, and wrote many Tablets to the rulers in His day. In was His duty and mission from God to be direct and harsh in ways that Baha'is should not, such as publicly criticizing political officials. By Manifesting God on Earth, He had an authority to do things that Baha'is cannot do within Baha'i law. However, Baha'u'llah and God gave us the gift of Abdu'l-Baha, who was the perfect Baha'i, so that we have a surrogate role model for our standards.
Hi Neal.

Please answer these questions (see my previous posts with Investigate):

In what way was Baha'u'llah absolutely simple; of infinite and pure spirit, having no bodily parts?

In what way was Baha'u'llah absolutely immutable; not subject or susceptible to change or variation in form or quality or nature?

In what way was Baha'u'llah everywhere present in created space; and, being eternal, is to this very day everywhere present in created space?

In what way did Baha'u'llah hold sovereignty and dominion over the entire universe?

In what way was Baha'u'llah omnipotent?

If you have no desire to answer these questions, then simply write: 'We must agree to differ'; and that will be the end of the matter, I promise you.

Very best regards,

Paul
 
Old 03-06-2016, 06:02 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Based on Baha'i Scriptures, the creation of God may be divided into 5 main category:

1. Minerals
2. Plants
3. Animals
4. Human
5. Manifestations
...
Regular human, have a different spiritual nature. But if we also clean the Mirror of our Spirit, we can also to a lesser degree reflect the attributes and Will of God. Abdulbaha, is an example of a regular human, that has reached such a high station! Notice, according to history, Abdulbaha, spent most of his life in prison and had no education! Yet He knew about all subjects as you can investigate yourself. That proves, if we clean the Mirror of our heart, we also, like Abdulbaha, become recipients of the knowledge of God!
The categorizations that Investigate Truth are commonly shared in Baha'i literature, and I think they are very useful for human to understand our stations relative to the Manifestations. We cannot understand the mystery of the Manifestation and more than an animal can understand us.

I worry that this framework of knowledge may seem blasphemous to Niblo's initial framework at the outset of this discussion, but it need not seem so. For the reason that the Manifestation of Baha'u'llah is beyond us is not because Mirza Hysayn Ali had a soul greater than a human, but because the abilities of the Manifestation are greater than ours and exceed our comprehension. Baha'u'llah had a dual nature, you could say. Husayn's soul continues to exist in the Abha Kingdom alongside the rest of the concourse on High, but because He existed alongside the Manifested spirit on Earth, and has been irrevocably affected by his relationship with it, he is surely now exalted alongside it in the afterlife. How else could it be? The men who Manifest God live perfect human lives after Manifesting, and are "closer" to God than us due to their intimacy with the Manifested spirit. If those who live better lives are better reqarded in paradise, then these men would be best rewarded of all, and their relatively exalted station may be safeguarded and preserved as our souls continue to grow in the next life.

Last edited by Neal; 03-06-2016 at 06:31 AM.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 06:12 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Please answer these questions (without waffle):

In what way was Baha'u'llah absolutely simple; of infinite and pure spirit, having no bodily parts?

In what way was Baha'u'llah absolutely immutable; not subject or susceptible to change or variation in form or quality or nature?

In what way was Baha'u'llah everywhere present in created space; and, being eternal, is to this very day everywhere present in created space?

In what way did Baha'u'llah hold sovereignty and dominion over the entire universe?

In what way was Baha'u'llah omnipotent?

If you have no desire to answer these, then simply write: 'We must agree to differ'; and that will be the end of the matter, I promise you.
Hello again,

I promise, I will give you a specific answer to your questions regarding Baha'u'llah.
But If you first answer, what evidence are there, that God Himself possess such Qualities, other than what Scriptures says, it would help to start with something in common.

If you have no answer for that question, let me know, I will give you my thoughts on that anyways.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 06:28 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hi Neal.

Please answer these questions (see my previous posts with Investigate):

In what way was Baha'u'llah absolutely simple; of infinite and pure spirit, having no bodily parts?

In what way was Baha'u'llah absolutely immutable; not subject or susceptible to change or variation in form or quality or nature?

In what way was Baha'u'llah everywhere present in created space; and, being eternal, is to this very day everywhere present in created space?

In what way did Baha'u'llah hold sovereignty and dominion over the entire universe?

In what way was Baha'u'llah omnipotent?

If you have no desire to answer these questions, then simply write: 'We must agree to differ'; and that will be the end of the matter, I promise you.

Very best regards,

Paul
I'll do my best! But of course, my best will not do the subject justice. I can only share my current understanding to the limit of my ability to express it.

As far as I can tell, I disagree not with your understanding of God, but with how you frame these questions.

In no way was Mirza Husayn Ali absolutely simple; in no way was he of infinite and pure spirit, having no bodily parts. He was a man. "Baha'u'llah" was His title after Manifesting. When we reverently refer to Him, we do so because He manifested God to us. He did not incarnate God. God was not contained in His personage. Mirza Husayn Ali was given the privilege to see a portion of God's ocean of Wisdom, and to channel it for us as God willed. What was revealed to us was revealed to a degree we could understand. Mirza Husayn Ali, the man, was still there, and was still composed of bodily parts. God is simple, and God communicated to us through Mirza Husayn Ali. So when we Baha'is see infinite and pure spirit in Baha'u'llah, it is because we are seeing into the Ocean of God's Spirit. We glean some of God's light. This light can be attributed to "Baha'u'llah," because that title refers to what we see when we look at Mirza Husayn Ali, and not to Mirza Husayn Ali and his own soul.

Mirza Husayn Ali was not absolutely immutable; he was subject or susceptible to change or variation, in the ways that we all are. Baha'u'llah is His title after manifesting the eternal spirit of the Manifestations. This spirit may have always existed since time immemorial, destined to live among us, or it may have been created at a moment by God, or it might be a figurative spirit that symbolizes the mysterious nature of God's bond with Mirza Husayn Ali. I don't know, and that doesn't matter. I won't comprehend this. I can only understand it better over time, and become a better person as I learn more from heeding the wisdom I glean from it.

Spacetime is weird and hard to comprehend, even if we can account for it mathematically. By traditional understandings of three dimensional space in a physical universe, I don't think anything supernatural exists anywhere in space. So Baha'u'llah does not exist anywhere in physical space, let alone everywhere. But spacetime is a creation of God, and we do not know, nor can we comprehend, how it exists relative to God, because we comprehend realities within the frameworks of this space. Baha'u'llah as Manifestation exists in different dimensions, not the ones of this physical universe. I don't how those dimensions work, so I don't know whether they permeate our own or are outside of them. This question may not make sense according to the standards of absolute truth. Therefore, I don't know how any mortal, without speaking for God, could answer this question, and I certainly cannot begin to try.

God holds sovereignty over everything, whether it is this physical reality or all other spiritual realities. In what way did Baha'u'llah hold sovereignty and dominion over the entire universe? Well, in our universe, he certainly held sovereignty. He occupied God's throne on Earth as God's representative. He had no peer with equal or greater station living on Earth. And it is possible this was true of the physical universe, but I would play it conservative and say it only certainly applies to Earth. This is not the sovereignty of Mirza Husayn Ali, but of Baha'u'llah, God's chosen representative. He is God's Vicegerant.

Baha'u'llah was omnipotent not of His own power, but by the power of God. He was privileged with God's blessings, and knew whether God would will something or not. If someone told Baha'u'llah to perform a miracle, He would do so or not do so based on whether God would allow it, and the power of the miracle would not come from Mirza Husayn Ali but from God. And because God would perform this miracle to assert Baha'u'llah's authority on Earth, it would probably appear to come from Baha'u'llah. But in truth, it would come from God.

Last edited by Neal; 03-06-2016 at 06:35 AM.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 06:33 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Hello again,

I promise, I will give you a specific answer to your questions regarding Baha'u'llah.
But If you first answer, what evidence are there, that God Himself possess such Qualities, other than what Scriptures says, it would help to start with something in common.

If you have no answer for that question, let me know, I will give you my thoughts on that anyways.
Well hello again!

I’m not sure I understand your question (I will allow yet another diversion!).

All that we know of the Beloved comes from Scripture: ‘We cannot know God directly, but only through His Prophets.(Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 504). What other evidence would you expect to find?

Or are you saying that the attributes I have mentioned are not to be found in Scripture?

Very best regards,

Paul

PS: You’re not from Norway, by any chance?
 
Old 03-06-2016, 06:53 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Neal View Post
I'll do my best! But of course, my best will not do the subject justice. I can only share my current understanding to the limit of my ability to express it.

As far as I can tell, I disagree not with your understanding of God, but with how you frame these questions.

In no way was Mirza Husayn Ali absolutely simple; in no way was he of infinite and pure spirit, having no bodily parts. He was a man. "Baha'u'llah" was His title after Manifesting. When we reverently refer to Him, we do so because He manifested God to us. He did not incarnate God. God was not contained in His personage. Mirza Husayn Ali was given the privilege to see a portion of God's ocean of Wisdom, and to channel it for us as God willed. What was revealed to us was revealed to a degree we could understand. Mirza Husayn Ali, the man, was still there, and was still composed of bodily parts. God is simple, and God communicated to us through Mirza Husayn Ali. So when we Baha'is see infinite and pure spirit in Baha'u'llah, it is because we are seeing into the Ocean of God's Spirit. We glean some of God's light. This light can be attributed to "Baha'u'llah," because that title refers to what we see when we look at Mirza Husayn Ali, and not to Mirza Husayn Ali and his own soul.

Mirza Husayn Ali was not absolutely immutable; he was subject or susceptible to change or variation, in the ways that we all are. Baha'u'llah is His title after manifesting the eternal spirit of the Manifestations. This spirit may have always existed since time immemorial, destined to live among us, or it may have been created at a moment by God, or it might be a figurative spirit that symbolizes the mysterious nature of God's bond with Mirza Husayn Ali. I don't know, and that doesn't matter. I won't comprehend this. I can only understand it better over time, and become a better person as I learn more from heeding the wisdom I glean from it.

Spacetime is weird and hard to comprehend, even if we can account for it mathematically. By traditional understandings of three dimensional space in a physical universe, I don't think anything supernatural exists anywhere in space. So Baha'u'llah does not exist anywhere in physical space, let alone everywhere. But spacetime is a creation of God, and we do not know, nor can we comprehend, how it exists relative to God, because we comprehend realities within the frameworks of this space. Baha'u'llah as Manifestation exists in different dimensions, not the ones of this physical universe. I don't how those dimensions work, so I don't know whether they permeate our own or are outside of them. This question may not make sense according to the standards of absolute truth. Therefore, I don't know how any mortal, without speaking for God, could answer this question, and I certainly cannot begin to try.

God holds sovereignty over everything, whether it is this physical reality or all other spiritual realities. In what way did Baha'u'llah hold sovereignty and dominion over the entire universe? Well, in our universe, he certainly held sovereignty. He occupied God's throne on Earth as God's representative. He had no peer with equal or greater station living on Earth. And it is possible this was true of the physical universe, but I would play it conservative and say it only certainly applies to Earth. This is not the sovereignty of Mirza Husayn Ali, but of Baha'u'llah, God's chosen representative. He is God's Vicegerant.

Baha'u'llah was omnipotent not of His own power, but by the power of God. He was privileged with God's blessings, and knew whether God would will something or not. If someone told Baha'u'llah to perform a miracle, He would do so or not do so based on whether God would allow it, and the power of the miracle would not come from Mirza Husayn Ali but from God. And because God would perform this miracle to assert Baha'u'llah's authority on Earth, it would probably appear to come from Baha'u'llah. But in truth, it would come from God.
Hi Neal,

Thank you. An honest answer, as I expected.

We are agreed that:

Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) was not infinite.

Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) was not pure spirit, having no bodily parts.

Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) was not absolutely immutable.

Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) does exist in physical space (in a grave in Haifa) but not everywhere. He is not omnipresent - the Beloved is.

Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) was not omnipotent (as the Beloved is…by His own power)

That is enough to show that Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) did not possess ‘all the attributes’ of the Beloved, as he claimed.

We will agree to differ on the matter of whether or not he was the Beloved’s representative.

Time for coffee and biscuits on this matter. I’m done.

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Paul

Last edited by Niblo; 03-07-2016 at 05:24 AM.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 07:21 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hi Neal,

Thank you. An honest answer, as I expected.

We are that:

Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) was not infinite.

Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) was not pure spirit, having no bodily parts.

Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) was not absolutely immutable.

Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) does exist in physical space (in a grave in Haifa) but not everywhere. He is not omnipresent - the Beloved is.

Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) was not omnipotent (as the Beloved is…by His own power)

That is enough to show that Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) did not possess ‘all the attributes’ of the Beloved, as he claimed.

We will agree to differ on the matter of whether or not he was the Beloved’s representative.

Time for coffee and biscuits on this matter. I’m done.

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Paul
The Baha'is distinguish between the physical body and the Soul of the Manifestation.

The physical body of Mirza Hussein Ali, was no different than a regular man.
His Soul however, possessed all the attributes and names of God.

As regards to evidence for that, I am opening a new Thread....maybe today or tomorrow.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 07:41 AM   #78
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Hi Paul,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
That is enough to show that Mirza Husayn Ali (called ‘Baha'u'llah’) did not possess ‘all the attributes’ of the Beloved, as he claimed.
You and I may personally agree that Mirza Husayn Ali did not "possess all the attributes of Allah," in the sense that I do not believe these attributes eminated from his own essence. I believe that His claim, however, was that "Baha'u'llah," which is the title of that Mystery that lived among us for a time, did demonstrate all the attributes that we are able to witness, and may have been able to demonstrate the others if we had the spiritual perception to see beyond the mirror that was Mirza Husayn's body. The claim may or may not be absolutely true, but it is true enough for the sake of what man can fathom. I don't think that may belief would assert that Baha'u'llah made a false claim, rather that any apparent falseness if due to a misinterpretation on our parts.

Last edited by Neal; 03-06-2016 at 07:43 AM.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 07:47 AM   #79
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Paul, I have a favor to ask, if you have time later. Can you explain to me how you understand God as being omnipresent in the material creation? It might be good to share your understanding of omnipresence. We may genuinely differ on our beliefs regarding God on this matter, or we may simply be speaking in different terms regarding our understanding of divine realities. If this is too off topic, we could start a new thread. And of course, only share if you wish!

Last edited by Neal; 03-06-2016 at 08:15 AM.
 
Old 03-06-2016, 08:07 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Well hello again!

I’m not sure I understand your question (I will allow yet another diversion!).

All that we know of the Beloved comes from Scripture: ‘We cannot know God directly, but only through His Prophets.(Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 504). What other evidence would you expect to find?

Or are you saying that the attributes I have mentioned are not to be found in Scripture?

Very best regards,

Paul

PS: You’re not from Norway, by any chance?

Well, you say, that God possess those Names and Attributes which are mentioned in Quran.

If an atheists asks you, what solid evidence you have that the God you believe in, possess such names and attributes, what answer you have for him?

If you say, my evidence is Quran, it is obvious, the atheist does not believe in Quran. If you say, this World of Creation is the evidence of my God and His Power, Love, Wisdom..., then it is obvious, such things are not seen by Atheists, as they don't think the existence of this world requires a God, since according to science of evolution and big bang, they say, it does not require a God.

The point, i am making is that, these Names and Attributes are not physical things that we can grab some and say, 'here they are!'
It completely depends on the 'Perception'. Moreover, we cannot allow our imagination, or wish-fullness, causes us to believe that a God exists the way we hope and like the God to exist.

Do you think what I am saying is fair?

Now, you ask me, what evidence I have that God was manifested in the Person of Baha'u'llah.

I have surely better evidence and more solid evidence that God was manifested in Baha'u'llah, than you can describe the evidence of God based on World of Creation or Quran! Indeed, the existence of God, is proved, through appearance of Baha'u'llah!
I will open a new thread for this soon.

Have a Good Night!
 
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