Bahai Forums

Go Back   Baha'i Forums > Baha'i Forums > Baha'i Beliefs

Baha'i Beliefs Baha'i Beliefs - Unity of God, the Unity of Religion, and the Unity of Humanity


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-27-2016, 04:46 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
GoaForce's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: France
Posts: 263
My take on the Seal of the Prophets

Hello.

I posted this on another forum, but I'd really like to share this with you as well :

So yersteday someone called me about the fact that some hadiths mentions Muhammad pbuh to be the Last Messenger.

And indeed, I think that there is something here that requires to be solved.

So, this is the fruit of my thinking.

Muhammad did not say that he was the Last Messenger. He said :

1) That is the Seal of the Prophets.

Quran 33:40

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

2) That he is at the end of the prophetic line.

Hadith :

I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets.

Hadith :

God has bestowed upon me six favors which the former Prophets did not enjoy:

I have been endowed with the gift of pithy and perfect speech.

I was granted victory owing to my awe.

The spoils of war were made lawful unto me.

The whole earth has been made the place of worship for me and it has become the means of purification for me also. In other words, in my religion, offering of prayers is not confined to certain specified places of worship. Prayers can be offered at any place over the earth. And in case water is not available, it is lawful for my people to perform ablutions with earth (Tayammum) and to cleanse themselves with the soil, if water for bathing is scarce.

I have been sent by Allah to carry His Divine message to the whole world.

And the line of prophets has come to its final end in me.


3) That there will be no prophets after him.

Hadith :

And I am the last in the sense that no prophet shall succeed me.

Hadith :

Behold there is no prophethood after me.

Hadith :

But no Apostle will come after me.


Hadith :

The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me.

Now, what does Baha'u'llah says ?

Iqan 172-173 :

Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of 162 knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term “Seal of the Prophets” to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muḥammad, Himself, declared: “I am all the Prophets?” Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: “I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?” Why should Muḥammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: “I am the first Adam” be incapable of saying also: “I am the last Adam”? For even as He regarded Himself to be the “First of the Prophets”—that is Adam—in like manner, the “Seal of the Prophets” is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the “First of the Prophets,” He likewise is their “Seal."

The mystery of this theme hath, in this Dispensation, been a sore test unto all mankind. Behold, how many are those who, clinging unto these words, have disbelieved Him Who is their true Revealer. What, We ask, could this people presume the terms “first” and “last”—when referring to God—glorified be His Name!—to mean? If they maintain that these terms bear reference to this material universe, how could it be possible, when the visible order of things is still manifestly existing? Nay, in this instance, by “first” is meant no other than the “last” and by “last” no other than the “first.”


He also explains that all the Manifestations are being exalted in his own revelation.

So, this is what Muslims understand about the Seal of the Prophets. With the Prophet Muhammad, the Abrahamic religion has reached absolute perfection (see Quran, hadith). That is why the chain of prophetood has arrived to an end.



And this is the Baha'i view. The chain continues. I am not satisfied with that.


Now, let's dig dipper.

During his night Journey to Jerusalem, the Prophet Muhammad had to lead a prayer, during which all of the former prophets prayed behind of him. This is the key.
It means that the Prophets from the Past are all aligned in a horizontal plane behind Muhammad pbuh. Muhammad closed the horizontal plane.

But Baha'u'llah says that all of the Manifestations are exalted in his own revelation. It is about a vertical plane.

Now, back to the Hadiths.
The Prophet Muhammad says that the chain of Prophethood has arrived to an end. This is end is the end of a horizontal transmission, because perfection has been reached on that plane. This is why he is the Seal of the Prophets. It means that he closes this chain of transmission forever.
It is not that they will be not Prophets after him. There will be no Prophets beyond the Seal of the Prophets. The Seal closes the horizontal transmission.

Now, what both Muslims and Baha'is shall understand is that.



This is the meaning of the Baha'i revelation. There is no Prophet after the Seal. The chain of transmission has arrived to an end, and the Bab opens a vertical chain of transmission. All the Manifestations after Muhammad exalt the previous ones along the Seal.

Tell me what you think.
 
Join Baha'i Forums


Welcome to Baha'i Forums, an open Baha'i Faith community! We welcome everyone and the community is free to join so register today and become part of the Baha'i Forums family!


Old 02-27-2016, 05:30 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: Canada
Posts: 1,264
This is my take:

Shia Qaim vs Shia Clergy | ReligiousForums.com
 
Old 02-27-2016, 05:35 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
GoaForce's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: France
Posts: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Thanks. I really like to read this. I think it completes my own humble (attempt at an) understanding.
Actually, I focus more here on the "new prophetic cycle" aspect. And on the Sunni hadiths, that I believe are authentic to a certain extent. I really believe that Muhammad said that he is at the end of the line, and that there will be prophets after him, who is the Seal.
 
Old 02-27-2016, 08:37 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2015
From: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 111
“It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.” (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, XXV)

The Guardian's take on the Seal of the Prophets:

“Thus ended a life (referring to the Bab) which posterity will recognize as standing at the confluence of two universal prophetic cycles, the Adamic Cycle stretching back as far as the first dawnings of the world’s recorded religious history and the Bahá’í Cycle destined to propel itself across the unborn reaches of time for a period of no less than five thousand centuries.” (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, pp. 54-55)

LR
 
Old 02-27-2016, 09:16 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Neal's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: United States
Posts: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Roofener View Post
“a period of no less than five thousand centuries.” (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, pp. 54-55)

LR
Off topic a bit, but does anybody know if this period can be traced back to any documents before God Passes By?
 
Old 02-27-2016, 09:21 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Neal's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: United States
Posts: 239
GoaForce,

I love this perspective you have shared. I think that the nature of this matter rests in knowledge beyond our realm of comprehension, so while I've never been satisfied with the perspective of the second graph you've shown (very useful for this discussion, BTW), I've accepted that there are too many ambiguous sayings and verses from the Qur'an and Muhammad for me to ever find esoteric meaning that makes sense of it all. But I like your perspective, and I see what you've gleaned as a reflection of what Bahá'u'lláh says in the quote Larry shared.
 
Old 02-27-2016, 09:41 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
GoaForce's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: France
Posts: 263
@ Neal :

Actually, what I do is interpreting the hadiths.

Muhammad is at an end of the prophetic line. Why ? Because he is the Seal of the Prophets. Therefore, no prophet will succeed him on that part of the Line, because the line has taken a new direction. Therefore, Baha'u'llah appears on the part of the Line that follows not the Adamic direction. It's a pretty simple idea. I think my graphs are more eloquent than my arguments actually.
 
Old 02-27-2016, 10:12 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2015
From: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 111
Neal – one brief response. Consider that there will be cyclic Revelations/Dispensations within greater and more all-encompassing cycles of time. From Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, pp. 67-68:

“. . . it is clearly set forth in the Holy Writings that centuries, nay thousands of years, must pass on to completion, before a Manifestation like unto this Manifestation shall appear again. It is possible, however, that after the completion of a full thousand years, certain Holy Beings will be empowered to deliver a Revelation: this, however, will not be through a Universal Manifestation. Wherefore every day of the cycle of the Blessed Beauty is in reality equal to one year, and every year of it is equal to a thousand years.

“Consider, for example, the sun: its transit from one zodiacal sign to the next occurreth within a short period of time, yet only after a long period doth it attain the plenitude of its resplendency, its heat and glory, in the sign of Leo. It must first complete one full revolution through the other constellations before it will enter the sign of Leo again, to blaze out in its full splendour. In its other stations, it revealeth not the fullness of its heat and light. . . .

“As to the cycle of the Blessed Beauty--the times of the Greatest Name--this is not limited to a thousand or two thousand years....

“When it is said that the period of a thousand years beginneth with the Manifestation of the Blessed Beauty and every day thereof is a thousand years, the intent is a reference to the cycle of the Blessed Beauty, which in this context will extend over many ages into the unborn reaches of time.”

LR
 
Old 02-27-2016, 10:29 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2015
From: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 111
Neal:

Thoughts for your consideration:

The Baha'i cyclic Dispensation, lasting at least 1000 years, is not the same as that divine and universal Cycle ushered in by Baha'u'llah which will "extend over many ages into the unborn reaches of time" as expounded on by 'Addu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

So in essence, there are spiritual cycles within greater spiritual cycles similar to the cyclic patterns of the natural world.

LR
 
Old 02-27-2016, 03:09 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Neal's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: United States
Posts: 239
Thank you for those quotes, Larry

I mostly wonder about the 500,000 years that the Guardian explicitly states. It is so specific compared to the quotes by 'Abdu'l-Baha. I understand that there has been confusion about the meaning of "century" as it is translated to English, and also believe that much of God Passes By is based on Baha'i hearsay and not always from the authoritative Writings. Of course, God Passes By is itself authoritative, and I do not question that fact, I only wish to explore the nuance of what that implication means to history. It would be wonderful to know if the Guardian was quoting the Dawnbreakers, which are not authoritative, or was quoting Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha's own statements. Not that the answer will matter to me, but it fascinates me to know nonetheless.
 
Old 02-27-2016, 04:24 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2015
From: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 111
Neal: In his Dispensation of Baha’u’llah treatise, Shoghi Effendi writes, quoting ‘Abdu’l-Baha who specifically mentions the “Baha’i cycle – a cycle that must extend over a period of at least five hundred thousand years.” Perhaps this will provide the validity you are seeking related to the 500,000 years.

As a further testimony to the greatness of the Revelation identified with Bahá'u'lláh may be cited the following extracts from a Tablet addressed by `Abdu'l-Bahá to an eminent Zoroastrian follower of the Faith: "Thou hadst written that in the sacred books of the followers of Zoroaster it is written that in the latter days, in three separate Dispensations, the sun must needs be brought to a standstill. In the first Dispensation, it is predicted, the sun will remain motionless for ten days; in the second for twice that time; in the third for no less than one whole month. The interpretation of this prophecy is this: the first Dispensation to which it refers is the Muhammadan Dispensation during which the Sun of Truth stood still for ten days. Each day is reckoned as one century. The Muhammadan Dispensation must have, therefore, lasted no less than one thousand years, which is precisely the period that has elapsed from the setting of the Star of the Imámate to the advent of the Dispensation proclaimed by the Báb. The second Dispensation referred to in this prophecy is the one inaugurated by the Báb Himself, which began in the year 1260 A.H. and was brought to a close in the year 1280 A.H. As to the third Dispensation--the Revelation proclaimed by Bahá'u'lláh--inasmuch as the Sun of Truth when attaining that station shineth in the plenitude of its meridian splendor its duration hath been fixed for a period of one whole month, which is the maximum time taken by the sun to pass through a sign of the Zodiac. From this thou canst imagine the magnitude of the Bahá'í cycle-- a cycle that must extend over a period of at least five hundred thousand years." (The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh, pp. 101-102)
 
Old 02-28-2016, 12:11 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Neal's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: United States
Posts: 239
New Thread

Larry, I created a new thread to continue this conversation Thanks for these quotes, they are fascinating!
 
Old 02-28-2016, 03:49 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
Pollwr's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2009
From: earth
Posts: 445
Here is a quotation that I think is relevant.

"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God," He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine." And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God." And were any of them to voice the utterance, "I am the Messenger of God," He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God." Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim, "I am the Seal of the Prophets," they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last," the "Seen" and the "Hidden" -- all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, "We are the Servants of God," this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 53)
 
Old 02-29-2016, 04:15 AM   #14
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2015
From: Bend, Oregon
Posts: 111
GoaForce:

Thank you for your "take" on the teaching "Seal of the Prophets". Attached is a link (BAHA'ITEACHINGS.ORG) and a brief article by Christopher Buck related to the topic which may reflect Baha'u'llah's "take" on the "Seal of the Prophets" and "attainment unto the divine Presence" which was to follow the Seal:

Unsealing the

LR
 
Old 02-29-2016, 08:11 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: Canada
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
Thanks. I really like to read this. I think it completes my own humble (attempt at an) understanding.
Actually, I focus more here on the "new prophetic cycle" aspect. And on the Sunni hadiths, that I believe are authentic to a certain extent. I really believe that Muhammad said that he is at the end of the line, and that there will be prophets after him, who is the Seal.

In Baha'I view the term 'Seal of Prophet' was a Test for the People of this Age... And the ultimate success of People of an Age, is recognition of the Lord in every Age.
There are many 'veils' that People in every Age must make an effort to 'Remove', so that they succeed in Recognition of their Lord.
The designation 'Seal of Prophets' is one the many veils, for Muslims to remove, so they may recognize Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of Lord, promissed in Quran. Removing these veils is like passing a Test. Everytime we can successfully remove a veil, we can see God more clear with our own eyes. It is said God has thousands of veils.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 02-29-2016 at 08:15 AM.
 
Old 02-29-2016, 08:59 AM   #16
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2015
From: .
Posts: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of Lord, promissed in Quran.
Whereabouts?
 
Old 02-29-2016, 11:18 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: Canada
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Whereabouts?
Meeting with the Lord on the Day of Resurrection which is mentioned in Quran repeatedly. That was meeting with the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

If we think that by meeting with God, is meant, God physically incarnates, that is Shirk. God is beyond our understandings, and No Vision takes Him as Quran states.
So, by meeting with the Lord, was meant, meeting with His Manifestation, that is, God, through His own choosing, created the Bab and Baha'u'llah, so, through Them, He, Our Lord, manifests for us, His Will, Words, and Attributes.
Offcourse, this is the Baha'I belief, and there is no compulsion in Religion, and there is no benefit or harm for me as regards to what other people want to believe.

Have a Good Night
 
Old 02-29-2016, 12:14 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2015
From: .
Posts: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Meeting with the Lord on the Day of Resurrection which is mentioned in Quran repeatedly. That was meeting with the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

If we think that by meeting with God, is meant, God physically incarnates, that is Shirk. God is beyond our understandings, and No Vision takes Him as Quran states.
So, by meeting with the Lord, was meant, meeting with His Manifestation, that is, God, through His own choosing, created the Bab and Baha'u'llah, so, through Them, He, Our Lord, manifests for us, His Will, Words, and Attributes.
Offcourse, this is the Baha'I belief, and there is no compulsion in Religion, and there is no benefit or harm for me as regards to what other people want to believe.

Have a Good Night
Sorry I meant whereabouts in the Qur'an does it mention Baha'u'llah...which verses?

Have a Good Night yourself.
 
Old 02-29-2016, 12:52 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: Canada
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Sorry I meant whereabouts in the Qur'an does it mention Baha'u'llah...which verses?

Have a Good Night yourself.
I think we talked about this before
But I offer these sequence of thoughts:

1. According to Islam, God has a greatest Name, which was hidden.
The Prophet never explicitly mentioned the Greatest Name of God.
Quran has 99 Names of Allah. The 100th one, which is the Greatest Name, is not in Quran, and is revealed Now in this Age! Something to Ponder is, why God did not reveal His greatest Name in Quran, and Muhammad never explicitly said what that Name is?

2. There are thousands of Hadithes regarding Mahdi. Why not even a single verse of Quran explicitly talks about Mahdi?

3. There is no verse in Jewish or Christian Bible which explicitly says, a Prophet by the Name Muhammad comes after Jesus. Why is that?

4. There is no Explicit verse in Jewish Bible, that explicitly says, Messiah is a Prophet by the Name Jesus who comes after Moses. Why is that?

5. Indeed the name of 'Baha'u'llah' appear in Jewish Bible (older Aerabic translations), regarding the prophecies of Manifestation of God. And indeed it is recorded in Christian Bible, that Jesus returns with a New Name, which the Name of God!



From my experience, Muslims don't have an answer for all these questions.
But many of them say: indeed name of these Prophets were explicitly included in Bible, but people of the Book removed those verses.

I say to them: "bring your proofs, that such verses were included in the past Holy Books", or "bring a verse from Quran, that people of the Book removed such verses", or if you cannot "bring a hadith, that such verses existed, but were removed". Which they cannot!


If God had told them everything explicitly, before the time of Test, then how could people be Tested and be separated?

Did not Muhammad say that God sent Him, so God may test people through Him?

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 02-29-2016 at 12:59 PM.
 
Old 02-29-2016, 12:59 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2015
From: .
Posts: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
I think we talked about this before
But I offer these sequence of thoughts:

1. According to Islam, God has a greatest Name, which was hidden.
The Prophet never explicitly mentioned the Greatest Name of God.
Quran has 99 Names of Allah. The 100th one, which is the Greatest Name, is not in Quran, and is revealed Now in this Age! Something to Ponder is, why God did not reveal His greatest Name in Quran, and Muhammad never explicitly said what that Name is?

2. There are thousands of Hadithes regarding Mahdi. Why not even a single verse of Quran explicitly talks about Mahdi?

3. There is no verse in Jewish or Christian Bible which explicitly says, a Prophet by the Name Muhammad comes after Jesus. Why is that?

4. There is no Explicit verse in Jewish Bible, that explicitly says, Messiah is a Prophet by the Name Jesus who comes after Moses. Why is that?

5. Indeed the name of 'Baha'u'llah' appear in Jewish Bible (older Aerabic translations), regarding the prophecies of Manifestation of God. And indeed it is recorded in Christian Bible, the Jesus returns with a New Name, which the Name of God!


If God had told them everythin explicitly, before the time of Test, then how could people be Tested and separated?

Did not Muhammad say that God sent Him, so God may test people through Him?
Ah. So the answer is: 'None!' Took a while, but we got there in the end
 
Old 02-29-2016, 01:09 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
GoaForce's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: France
Posts: 263
Quote:
Ah. So the answer is: 'None!' Took a while, but we got there in the end
xD
 
Old 02-29-2016, 02:41 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: Canada
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Ah. So the answer is: 'None!' Took a while, but we got there in the end
Right.

I provided more information, rather than just giving a short answer, because of 2 reasons:

1. I believe you had already knew that the word Baha'u'llah does not occur in Quran. So, I thought your intention is to say indirectly if Baha'u'llah is the Lord of Day of judgement why His name is not mentioned in Quran.

2. I tend to put more information on these threads in case other readers might be interested in those information.

Have a Good nite
 
Old 03-01-2016, 01:11 AM   #23
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2015
From: .
Posts: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Right.

I provided more information, rather than just giving a short answer, because of 2 reasons:

1. I believe you had already knew that the word Baha'u'llah does not occur in Quran. So, I thought your intention is to say indirectly if Baha'u'llah is the Lord of Day of judgement why His name is not mentioned in Quran.

2. I tend to put more information on these threads in case other readers might be interested in those information.

Have a Good nite
Good morning.

No Muslim would ever say (or even imagine) that Baha'u'llah is the ‘Lord of Day of Judgement’. That would be a blasphemy; and for very obvious reasons:

‘In the name of Allāh, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to Allāh, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path: the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’ (Al-Fatiha: 1-6).

Baha'u'llah is not Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla).

Baha'u'llah is not referred to in the Qur’an; either directly or indirectly; to claim that he is will invite a challenge. To make any false claim against the Qur’an will invite a challenge. Better not to make claims that cannot be substantiated.

Have a nice day, and very best regards,

Paul.
 
Old 03-01-2016, 01:26 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: Canada
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Good morning.

No Muslim would ever say (or even imagine) that Baha'u'llah is the ‘Lord of Day of Judgement’. That would be a blasphemy; and for very obvious reasons:

‘In the name of Allāh, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to Allāh, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path: the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’ (Al-Fatiha: 1-6).

Baha'u'llah is not Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla).

Baha'u'llah is not referred to in the Qur’an; either directly or indirectly; to claim that he is will invite a challenge. To make any false claim against the Qur’an will invite a challenge. Better not to make claims that cannot be substantiated.

Have a nice day, and very best regards,

Paul.
I quote Baha'u'llah:

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine!”136 And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.”137


136. Qur’án 8:17.
137. Qur’án 48:10
 
Old 03-01-2016, 05:47 AM   #25
Senior Member
 
GoaForce's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: France
Posts: 263
Quote:
Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!”
This is this :


Quran 20:14

" Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance."

The first person who has uttered these Quranic words were Muhammad, the Blessed Prophet of God.
 
Old 03-01-2016, 07:09 AM   #26
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jul 2014
From: Blue Planet
Posts: 1,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
This is this :


Quran 20:14

" Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance."

The first person who has uttered these Quranic words were Muhammad, the Blessed Prophet of God.

 
Old 03-01-2016, 07:42 AM   #27
Lives in hope
 
AidanK's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2015
From: N Ireland
Posts: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Good morning.

No Muslim would ever say (or even imagine) that Baha'u'llah is the ‘Lord of Day of Judgement’. That would be a blasphemy; and for very obvious reasons:

‘In the name of Allāh, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to Allāh, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path: the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’ (Al-Fatiha: 1-6).

Baha'u'llah is not Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla).

Baha'u'llah is not referred to in the Qur’an; either directly or indirectly; to claim that he is will invite a challenge. To make any false claim against the Qur’an will invite a challenge. Better not to make claims that cannot be substantiated.

Have a nice day, and very best regards,

Paul.
Happy St David's Day my Welsh Muslim brother
 
Old 03-01-2016, 09:21 AM   #28
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2015
From: .
Posts: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
I quote Baha'u'llah:

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine!”136 And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.”137

136. Qur’án 8:17.
137. Qur’án 48:10
Hello again.

Feel free to quote Baha'u'llah until the cows come home; that’s your right as a Baha’i. As far as the Muslims are concerned anyone who claims to be Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is a blasphemer (or else deluded).

You reference this Surah as proof of Baha'u'llah’s claim: ‘It was not you who killed them but Allāh, and when you (Prophet) threw (sand at them) it was not your throw (that defeated them) but Allāh’s, to do the believers a favour: Allāh is all seeing and all knowing.’ (Al-Anfal:17).

Al-Anfal refers to the Battle of Badr. The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is said to have prayed before the battle, and to have thrown sand at the enemy as a sign of their being defeated. The Surah reminds the Muslims (who were vastly outnumbered) that it was Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) who brought about the victory. It does not say that Muhammad is one and the same as his Lord. Anyone who thinks otherwise might have to explain how the Almighty came to be defeated at the battle of Uhud (when the Muslims, again under the command of Muhammad, were trounced).

You also reference this Surah as proof of Baha'u'llah’s claim: ‘Those who pledge loyalty to you (Prophet) are actually pledging loyalty to Allāh Himself - Allāh’s hand is placed on theirs - and anyone who breaks his pledge does so to his own detriment: Allāh will give a great reward to the one who fulfils his pledge to Him.’ (Al-Fath: 10).

When Britain had its Empire it had its Viceroys. These were regal officials who ran a country, or a colony, in the name of the reigning British Monarch. Lord Mountbatten of India is an example. Whenever a person pledged loyalty to Lord Mountbatten they were, in fact and in law, pledging loyalty to King George the Sixth; but only an idiot would suppose that the Viceroy and the King were one and the same person. Muhammad was the equivalent of a Viceroy in the context of Al-Fath: 10; and so a pledge made to him was a pledge made to the Exalted.

Speaking of the Children of Israel, Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) says: ‘Why do they not turn to Allāh and ask His forgiveness, when Allāh is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food (like other mortals). See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are. Say: “How can you worship something other than Allāh, that has no power to do you harm or good? Allāh alone is the All Hearing and All Knowing.”’ (Al-Ma’ida:74-76); and again: ‘Muhammad is only a messenger before whom many messengers have been and gone.’ (Al‘Imran:144).

Note the words: ‘Only a messenger’. Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was only a messenger, nothing more. Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was only a messenger, nothing more. Nowhere in the Qur’an does Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) confirm that they were anything other than that.

And if these great Prophets of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) are said by Him to be nothing other than human, where does that leave Baha'u'llah, who is not mentioned by Him at all - not even in the slightest of references?

Muslims accept Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) as their Prophet, not because the Qur’an says that he is, but because of the very existence of the Qur’an itself. They need no external justification for their belief in him; and most never seek it. My advice is that you exhibit confidence in your own scriptures by doing the same. The more you scrabble for justification outside of these scriptures the more desperate you appear. Is your religion – or perhaps your faith in that religion – so weak that it cannot stand on its own merit?

Have a nice day.

Last edited by Niblo; 03-01-2016 at 09:27 AM.
 
Old 03-01-2016, 09:23 AM   #29
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2015
From: .
Posts: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
This is this :


Quran 20:14

" Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance."

The first person who has uttered these Quranic words were Muhammad, the Blessed Prophet of God.
Exactly....a Prophet of God....'only a messenger'; conveying the message of His Lord. Nothing more than that.

Notice that the message to His people does not say: 'Indeed, we are Allah. There is no deity except Us, so worship Us and establish prayer for Our remembrance."

See my reply to Investigate.

Have a nice day, and very best regards.

Paul

Last edited by Niblo; 03-01-2016 at 09:31 AM.
 
Old 03-01-2016, 09:25 AM   #30
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2015
From: .
Posts: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by AidanK View Post
Happy St David's Day my Welsh Muslim brother
Diolch yn fawr!

Have a great day, an very best regards.

Paul
 
Old 03-01-2016, 09:38 AM   #31
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jul 2014
From: Blue Planet
Posts: 1,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Exactly....a Prophet of God....'only a messenger'; conveying the message of His Lord. Nothing more than that.

Notice that the message to His people does not say: 'Indeed, we are Allah. There is no deity except Us, so worship Us and establish prayer for Our remembrance."

See my reply to Investigate.

Have a nice day, and very best regards.

Paul
sorry but you have turned your explanation to suit your ideas
but I have a question to ask you. you think that Baha'ullah has claimed to be God; yes? it is not true though but let's say that you are right and He has really done this. now have you ever asked yourself why a "false prophet" (that is your idea of Baha'ullah) who needs people to follow Him (for what reason should He need it?! God knows!) should claim such a strange things while He can easily fool people into something believable? is He mental (I excuse Baha'ullah to speak like this) to both wants people to follow Him and then say things which make people not do it?!
anyway...just asking!
 
Old 03-01-2016, 10:35 AM   #32
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2015
From: .
Posts: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
sorry but you have turned your explanation to suit your ideas
but I have a question to ask you. you think that Baha'ullah has claimed to be God; yes? it is not true though but let's say that you are right and He has really done this. now have you ever asked yourself why a "false prophet" (that is your idea of Baha'ullah) who needs people to follow Him (for what reason should He need it?! God knows!) should claim such a strange things while He can easily fool people into something believable? is He mental (I excuse Baha'ullah to speak like this) to both wants people to follow Him and then say things which make people not do it?!
anyway...just asking!
Hello Maryamr.

You need to read my post rather more carefully.

Investigate quoted Baha'u'llah: ‘Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.’

I interpret these words to mean that were any ‘manifestation’ to declare that he is God he would be speaking the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Note, Baha'u'llah did not say that this person would be a liar, or someone with a mental illness. I really don’t know any other way to interpret his words. Perhaps you can help me.

Investigate offered verses from the Qur’an in support of this claim. I didn’t write that Baha'u'llah’s claimed to be God; I wrote: 'You also reference (two Surahs) as proof of Baha'u'llah’s claim' (as quoted by Investigate).

I then went on to show that the verses referenced by Investigate do not support this claim. The rest, as they say, is history.

Have a good day, and very best regards.

Paul
 
Old 03-01-2016, 10:59 AM   #33
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: Canada
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hello Maryamr.

You need to read my post rather more carefully.

Investigate quoted Baha'u'llah: ‘Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.’

I interpret these words to mean that were any ‘manifestation’ to declare that he is God he would be speaking the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Note, Baha'u'llah did not say that this person would be a liar, or someone with a mental illness. I really don’t know any other way to interpret his words. Perhaps you can help me.

Investigate offered verses from the Qur’an in support of this claim. I didn’t write that Baha'u'llah’s claimed to be God; I wrote: 'You also reference (two Surahs) as proof of Baha'u'llah’s claim' (as quoted by Investigate).

I then went on to show that the verses referenced by Investigate do not support this claim. The rest, as they say, is history.

Have a good day, and very best regards.

Paul

Manifestations of God are like Mirrors that reflect the Image of the Sun of Reality (God).

If you place a perfectly clean Mirror in front of the Sun, what do you see inside the Mirror?

You see the Sun!

Does it mean that the Sun has Moved down from its high position to become Manifested in the Mirror?
No, offcourse Not!


Since God is too high to appear in this Wordly earh, He has Created Mirrors, through Them, He reveals His attributes, Words and Will.

Such that, Whenever one of these Mirrors appear in this world, it is exactly, as if, God Himself has appeared, just as when we see the Image of God in this Mirror.

Therefore, if any of these Manifestations, say with respect to the Image in the Mirror, that 'I am God', He verily speaks the Truth.
Because in the Mirror, the image of the Sun of Reality is Perfectly seen!

When Muhammad revealed "it was Allah who threw the stones", it means the Will of Allah was manifested in this World through Muhammad.
In reality, it was Muhammad that threw the stone, but the verse says, Allah did.

Let's say, you go to do something, such as threwing stone at your Enemy, while you prayed before. Does it make sense that you say "it was not me that threw the stone, but Allah did"?
To me it makes no sense. No matter how much, Muhammad had prayed it makes no sense to say, Allah threw the stone, when Muhammad indeed through the stone, unless the Will of Allah became Manifested through Muhammad who is the image of God.



Now, Prophets speak to people of their time, according to the level of their intelligence. That is the reason, Muhammad said an Angel has revealed the verses from God to Him. This was only, so that the people's intelligence may accept.
Now, we live in a new Age, and people intelligence has grown and can accept more truth. That Angel, was no other the Holy Soul of Muhammad. The Angel is a symbol that Muhammad used to convey this Truth.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 03-01-2016 at 11:14 AM.
 
Old 03-01-2016, 11:36 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
Neal's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: United States
Posts: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Investigate quoted Baha'u'llah: ‘Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.’

I interpret these words to mean that were any ‘manifestation’ to declare that he is God he would be speaking the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Note, Baha'u'llah did not say that this person would be a liar, or someone with a mental illness. I really don’t know any other way to interpret his words. Perhaps you can help me.
Greetings, Niblo.

Are you familiar with the Baha'i concept of the Manifestation as a perfect mirror of God? This metaphor explains what Baha'u'llah means in a way that we can understand it. The Manifestation is the perfect reflection and representation of God (for the capacity of men in the day of the Manifestation). It is like a perfect mirror reflecting the Sun. If someone sees the Sun in the mirror and says, "There's the Sun!" they speak the truth. And surely the Sun seen in the mirror has all the qualities as the one in the sky. So it is with the Manifestations, for when they say, "I am God," they do not speak as the man, but as God reflected in Him. The mirror is not the Sun in essence, and neither is the Manifestation God in essence, but it has the qualities and authority to represent the Sun for all intents and purposes. This is not the "whole truth," but it is not an untruth. Rather, it is a relative truth.

When explaining this to Christians, Baha'is often compare it to Jesus Christ. Many Christians believe Jesus is God incarnate, whereas Baha'is do not believe this exactly. But the words "I am God" could escape Jesus' lips without being blasphemy, because it was not Jesus the man who spoke, but the Holy Spirit within Christ that spoke.

“When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!” - Baha'u'llah

This is why Jesus in the Gospels could say the Father is in Him, and yet also pray to the Father, and say that the Father is good while He (Jesus) is not. For relative to God, the Manifestation is nothing, but relative to us, the Manifestation is God, and yet simultaneously He is still a man.

Last edited by Neal; 03-01-2016 at 11:40 AM.
 
Old 03-01-2016, 11:37 AM   #35
Senior Member
 
Neal's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: United States
Posts: 239
Oops, Investigate Truth beat me. Shucks!
 
Old 03-01-2016, 11:51 AM   #36
Senior Member
 
GoaForce's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: France
Posts: 263
@Niblo

Quote:
Exactly....a Prophet of God....'only a messenger'; conveying the message of His Lord. Nothing more than that.
Agreed. I just stressed the ambiguity of the Prophetic station. Because the Prophets are those who have cast away their "I am" (ego) to be able to say "I AM" (Yahweh). I believe that Prophets and Humans are divine beings. But they are not the One (Allah).

Some prophets like Moses and Muhammad have been very clear : There is no God but God. But some others like Jesus and Baha'u'llah have brought up an ambiguity : their body is divine, because the human shape is made at the image of God. Jesus claimed to be a servant, but when asked if he was the Son, he didn't say no. Prophets maintain this balance between divinisation and unicity, revelation after revelation.

That says that we must be very careful and conscious : on the one hand, shirk is the worst of the sins, and on the other, we have to take conscience of our divine nature, that at some point, makes of us little gods (sorry if I'm shocking here).
It's an ambiguity that I do not understand very well, but that is real.

Anyway, Islam is very valuable in that it sets definitely protects us against association. Obviously Baha'u'llah was not God, but he had definitely some sort of prophetic attribute (the Prophet is not only the one who sees the future, as Baha'u'llah proved he could do, he is also the one who gives a vision when people are in darkness, and one who reads into people as in a book, which Baha'u'llah also proves capable of). He seemed to have been a great spiritual master. But Allah himself ? No way. However, had he uttered the words "I am Allah" because Allah speaks through him is not showking, because it is the way the Logos manifests.

Anyway, whoever is this person, he definitely delivers a precious knowledge.

Thanks for your input,

Regards,

Goaforce
 
Old 03-01-2016, 11:52 AM   #37
Senior Member
 
Neal's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: United States
Posts: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
You reference this Surah as proof of Baha'u'llah’s claim: ‘It was not you who killed them but Allāh, and when you (Prophet) threw (sand at them) it was not your throw (that defeated them) but Allāh’s, to do the believers a favour: Allāh is all seeing and all knowing.’ (Al-Anfal:17).
I do not believe that Baha'u'llah cited this verse as a proof of His claim, at least not in the way people in the West use the word proof. Rather, I think He was using that verse to make a point.

Note that the quote from Baha'ullah began so:

01. "Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto."

It continues:

02. "For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world."

And then ends:

03. "Thus, He hath revealed: 'Those shafts were God’s, not Thine!' And also He saith: 'In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.'"

I believe that the two Qur'anic verses Baha'u'llah cites are meant to support the second sentence, and not the first. The first sentence is a New Teaching from the Baha'i Faith, not found in the Qur'an explicitly. However, if you accept that the blessings of God follow His messengers, and that His messengers reveal His word, and that their titles come from God, then you can understand how having a messenger of God with you is like having God with you. Thus, the third sentence supports the second sentence, which is an identification of a pattern that has followed God's messengers, and the second sentence, now supported by the third, is a basis for the New Teaching of the first sentence.

This is why Jesus, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah were each moved to say "I am God," even though all three clearly prayed to God, worshiped God, and thought of themselves as nothing in comparison to God.
 
Old 03-01-2016, 03:54 PM   #38
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: Canada
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hello again.

Feel free to quote Baha'u'llah until the cows come home; that’s your right as a Baha’i. As far as the Muslims are concerned anyone who claims to be Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is a blasphemer (or else deluded).

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Allah said, 'I will declare war against him who shows hostility to a pious worshipper of Mine. And the most beloved things with which My slave comes nearer to Me, is what I have enjoined upon him; and My slave keeps on coming closer to Me through performing Nawafil (praying or doing extra deeds besides what is obligatory) till I love him, so I become his sense of hearing with which he hears, and his sense of sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he grips, and his leg with which he walks; and if he asks Me, I will give him, and if he asks My protection (Refuge), I will protect him; (i.e. give him My Refuge) and I do not hesitate to do anything as I hesitate to take the soul of the believer, for he hates death, and I hate to disappoint him."

Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76: To make the Heart Tender

The Prophet said:

"I am He and He is I, save that I am I, and He is He"



(Replace 'He' with 'Allah')

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahl_al-Tustari


I quote Baha'u'llah on this subject:

"To a supreme degree is this true of man, who, among all created things, hath been invested with the robe of such gifts, and hath been singled out for the glory of such distinction. For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpassed. All these names and attributes are applicable to him. Even as He hath said: “Man is My mystery, and I am his mystery.” Manifold are the verses that have been repeatedly revealed in all the heavenly Books and the holy Scriptures, expressive of this most subtle and lofty theme. Even as He hath revealed: “We will surely show them Our signs in the world and within themselves.”* Again He saith: “And also in your own selves: will ye not then behold the signs of God?”†"

*Qur’án 41:53.
†Qur’án 51:21

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 03-01-2016 at 04:22 PM.
 
Old 03-01-2016, 04:24 PM   #39
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: Canada
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post

Anyway, whoever is this person, he definitely delivers a precious knowledge.

Thanks for your input,

Regards,

Goaforce


Anyone who is fair-minded, would recognize, that, though Baha'u'llah and the Bab were not trained as Religious Scholar, and virtually had NO religious leanings, yet, knew the essence of knowledge of all subjects.
 
Old 03-05-2016, 03:00 AM   #40
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2015
From: .
Posts: 387
Hello Investigate, GoaForce and Neil.

Allow me to address each of your posts in this one reply.

Investigate:

The Hadith you quote (containing the words: ‘….so I become his sense of hearing with which he hears, and his sense of sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he grips, and his leg with which he walks’) is reminiscent of Saint Teresa of Avila’s poem: ‘Christ has no body but yours, no hands, no feet on earth but yours, yours are the eyes with which he looks compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good. Yours are the hands, with which he blesses all the world. Yours are the hands, yours are the feet, yours are the eyes, you are his body. Christ has no body now but yours. No hands, no feet on earth but yours. Yours are the eyes with which he looks compassion on this world. Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

If we do all we can to help people in need then it can truly be said that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) works through us. Hadith and poem capture the simple truth that if we but submit to His will then He will open our ears, sharpen our sight, give strength to our hands and to our legs; that we might better serve Him. Not for a moment do we become Him; nor yet share in His Divinity.

You quote - with reference to al-Tustari - the words: ‘I am He and He is I, save that I am I, and He is He’, implying (it seems to me) that I would take them to be an example of blasphemy on the part of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

Cyril Glasse writes that al-Tustari was: ‘An early mystic who was born in Tulstar, Persia and died in Basra…….Highly unorthodox, (he) explained the famous Sufi saying ascribed to the Prophet: “I am He and He is I, save that I am I, and He is He.” as a mystery of union or realisation at the centre of the Saint’s personality, called the sirr (“the secret”), or the heart, where existence joins Being.’ (The New Encyclopedia of Islam; Page 393).

Note that the words ‘I am He and He is I, save that I am I, and He is He’ are ‘ascribed to the Prophet’.

As far as I’m aware, these words are not contained in any Hadith Sharif nor Hadith Qudsi; nor are they listed among the acknowledged fabrications.

Suhaib Hassan writes: ‘Unfortunately however, statements will continue to be attributed to the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) although the person quoting them may have no idea what the people of knowledge of Hadith have ruled regarding those ahadith, thus ironically being in danger of contravening the Prophet's widely-narrated stern warnings about attributing incorrect/unsound statements to him.’ (An Introduction to the Science of Hadith; Foreword).

No recorded (or alleged) statement of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) can be considered genuine if it contradicts the Qur’an.

As we have seen, the Qur’an repeats - over and over - that Muhammad was nothing more that a messenger; that is to say, nothing more that a human being. Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) rebukes him for speaking to some disbelieving worthies - in the hope of converting them - while ignoring a blind Muslim who desired to learn from him: ‘He frowned and turned away when the blind man came to him - for all you know, he might have grown in spirit, or taken note of something useful to him. For the self-satisfied one you go out of your way - though you are not to be blamed for his lack of spiritual growth - but from the one who has come to you full of eagerness and awe you allow yourself to be distracted. No indeed! (Abasa: 1-11).

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) comforts him in his moment of doubt (he had not received revelation for some time, and thought that his Lord had forsaken him: ‘By the morning brightness and by the night when it grows still, your Lord has not forsaken you (Prophet), nor does He hate you, and the last will be better for you than the first; your Lord is sure to give you so much that you will be well satisfied.’ (Al-Duha: 1-5); and encourages him when he is troubled: ‘Did We not relieve your heart for you (Prophet), and remove the burden that weighed so heavily on your back, and raise your reputation high? So truly where there is hardship there is also ease; truly where there is hardship there is also ease.’ (Al-Sharh: 1-5).

Take special note of the words in Al-Duha: ‘And the last will be better for you than the first.’ This is a promise of Paradise given by the One who sees all ends. Is it likely that He would promise Paradise to a blasphemer; is it likely that the Prophet, who knew full well that he depended utterly upon the love and support of his Lord, would blaspheme against Him? Taking everything into consideration I have no doubt that the words you have quoted are spurious.

GoaForce:

I have to disagree with you when you say that the human body is divine: ‘Because (it) is made at the image of God.’

Scripture tells us that the body was created from the very earth. Science confirms our earthy origins: that we are made from a very wide range of elements, for example: carbon; calcium; oxygen; hydrogen; phosphorus; magnesium; iron; lead; copper; zinc; silver; gold; and arsenic!

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) does not have a body. He is spirit: ‘Every corporeal thing, being extended, is compound and has parts. But God is not compound: therefore He is not anything corporeal. With this demonstrated truth divine authority also agrees. For it is said: God is a spirit (John 4:24): To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, only God (1 Tim. 1:17): The invisible things of God are understood and discerned by the things that are made (Rom. 1:29).’ (Summa Contra Gentiles - St Thomas Aquinas: Chapter 20).

The Beloved knows and loves Himself. Man is the ‘image’ of the Beloved in the sense that of all earthly creatures he alone is able to know and to love his Creator; and in the sense that he - man - is possessed of soul that is spirit.

Neil:

Yes, I am familiar with the Baha'i concept of the ‘Manifestation’ as a perfect mirror of the Beloved.

A professor of philosophy once advised that should I find myself in debate with someone who knows his subject better than I, then I should exercise caution. The reason being that were he to be in perfect error I might have neither the knowledge nor the experience to discern it!

To proceed then……….…cautiously:

According to the Baha’i, Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is unknowable without aid of revelation (I agree with that); and that revelation can come only through human beings (in the language of the Baha’i: through ‘divine manifestations.’). As I understand it, these manifestations include Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Yeshua, Buddha, Confucius, Muhammad, the Báb, and Baha’u’llah.

According to Baha’u’llah, (I understand), ‘normal human beings’ have two natures only (body and soul). However, the ‘manifestations of God’ have a third nature; namely the ‘spirit and attributes’ of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) reflected in them. It is this that makes them special.

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is simple, in that - unlike man - He is not made of parts: ‘In every compound there must be actuality and potentiality. For a plurality of things cannot become one thing, unless there be actuality and potentiality. For things that are not one absolutely, are not actually united except by being in a manner tied up together or driven together: in which case the parts thus got together are in potentiality in respect of union; for they combine actually, after having been potentially combinable. But in God there is no potentiality: therefore there is not in Him any composition.’ (Summa Contra Gentiles - St Thomas Aquinas: Chapter 18).

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is absolutely perfect; is infinite in every perfection; is absolutely simple; is absolute Truth; is absolutely faithful; is absolutely immutable; is eternal; is everywhere present in created space; is infinitely just, infinitely merciful.

According to Catholic doctrine: ‘The Divine Attributes are really identical among themselves and with the Divine Essence.’ (Fundamental of Catholic Dogma; Dr. Ludwig Ott; Page28). The reason for this lies in Beloved’s absolute simplicity. According to Saint Augustine: ‘What God has, that He is.’ (City of God). His attributes are unique, and are possessed by Him alone. Not even He can gift them to another; since it is not within His nature to do so. It is not possible for any of His attributes to proceed by any outflowing from the Divine Essence; since this would contradict His absolute simplicity

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla), being spirit and being simple, cannot be divided. If I cup my hands together I contain Him entirely; and yet I am contained within Him; along with the whole of creation.

There is no place where the Exalted cannot be; and therefore He can never be remote from us: ‘We created man - We know what his soul whispers to him: We are closer to him than his jugular vein.’ (Qaf: 17). So how is it He can dwell in the ‘manifestation’ in some special manner, but not in GoaForce, or in Neil, or in any other person in the self same manner?

Have a great weekend, and very best regards.

Paul
 
Reply

  Baha'i Forums > Baha'i Forums > Baha'i Beliefs

Tags
prophets, seal



Thread Tools
Display Modes



Facebook @bahaiforums RSS


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2006 - 2017 Bahai Forums. All rights reserved.