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Old 04-04-2016, 07:03 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
but Mahdi (Qaim) is the same person as promised one of all ages! am I not right?
In My understanding, the term Mahdi, or Qaim are equally applicable to the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Not only Them, but, if we call all Messengers of God, Mahdi, and Qaim, we are not wronge! In the same way, All Messengers of God may be called Christ! They can be call Friend of God (Title of Abraham), the can be all called Messiah (Title of Jesus).
But, all previous Revelation, prophecied of Two Persons. The Second one of these Two, is the greater One.
 
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Old 04-04-2016, 07:19 AM   #42
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Investigatethetruth;

what you said before has perplexed me a little. you said "See, those who prophecied about Qaim, did not say, Mahdi, physically conquares the World in His life-time. They have said, the Qaim fills the earth with the Knowledge that is true Justice! Notice this is fulfilled!"

here, I am not going to talk about physically conquering the world. but in almost all Hadiths it is said that AT THE END of time of Qaim (which according to Baha'is, must be when the Bab is martyred and then the declaration of Bahaullah), the world is filled with justice. so at the end of dispensation of Bab, we had to witness it. but we did not.
I would like to know your explanation on the matter.
The Hadithes are not literal. Notice, it is said in Hadithes, Qaim has a long life, like Noah! Does it mean, Qaim was physically alive for a 1000 years?
The Hadithes says in the Period of Qaim. That does not mean, during the life-time of His earthly life. This is a Reference to the dispensation of Qaim. Even imam Sadiq had said, the Day of Resurrection is 1000 years.

Notice, in some Hadithes, it is said, qaim rules for 7 yrs. In some other, it says, 9 yrs. In some others it says, Qaim rules for 19 years. Yet in another Hadith it say, Qaim Rules for 309 years! Each one these, is an allusion to a period.
In general we cannot find a single Hadith that says, during the earthly life of Qaim, the earth will be in peace. That is just a misinterpretation of these Hadithes. If you look at, Prophecies of Messiah of Jews, you see, simalar statements about Messiah. When Jesus appeared, in His life, the earth was not in peace. This is one of the reasons, the jews reject Jesus as the true Messiah.
 
Old 04-04-2016, 07:57 AM   #43
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Dear IT.

The problem we have is that the Muslims do not accept that there ever was ‘Baha’i Revelation.’ There are reasons for this, and they will be well known to you.

A Muslim will tell you that the verses: ‘We sent messengers before you and gave them wives and offspring; no messenger was given the power to produce a miracle except with Allāh’s permission. There was a Scripture for every age (more accurately translated: ‘There is a time (ajalin) prescribed (kitabun) for everything (likulli)). Allāh erases or confirms whatever He will, and the source of Scripture is with Him.’ (Al-Ra‘d: 38-39) cannot possibly refer to anything other than the Prophets up to, and including Mohammed.

Until this problem is resolved (and neither of us will live to see that day) Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) knows best!

Have a nice day, and very best regards.

Paul
Dear Paul'

If you wish to discuss the verse according to its grammar, notice, it says, '...For every Term, there IS a Book'

Now, because, this verse says 'IS', this is applicable to All Times and not just the past prophets. You may say, because Quran was being revealed at the time, this verse is saying 'for every term IS a Book'. So, we need to look into other verses of Quran. Among them is the Surrah of Luqman:

" And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom."

Quran 31:27

The above verse, is indicative of the Fact, the the Words of God in Writing could not have been exhausted.

And, regarding your point that the muslims say, the verse 13:38-39 is regarding previous Books, is not a prove, they are right! Their interpretations are from their Schollars. The prophet warned Muslims regarding rising many False schollars.

Notice, according to History, the Bab and Baha'u'llah did not study religion, science, or history, or Arabic. But, all have witnessed, They said the verses of Their Books, and Tablets, from their mind, rather than studying or refering to any Books at the time of revealing them. It is obvious, their knowledge must have been inspired and Revelations.
You may think, this is Sorccery! But if you investigate thousands of pages of History regarding the Bab and Baha'u'llah, you will never find, anything that proves their knowledge was from an earthly sources. Notice, Baha'u'llah, in many of the Books and Tablets, has refered to many verses of Bible, Quran or History and sciences. You need to ask yourself, how did Baha'u'llah became so well-versed in these tipics? How was He able to say verses qucickly in Arabic, without studying Arabic? How did He know the details of Bible, Hadithes, and interpretations? Then try to find a reasonable answer to these questions based on history!

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 04-04-2016 at 08:06 AM.
 
Old 04-04-2016, 08:32 AM   #44
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@IT :



Ahahaha !

Now, I can accept that some prophecies were fulfilled in a symbolic sense. But the problem is that some of the signs, who weren't fulfilled back then, are being now.

Quran 99:1-4

When the earth is shaken to her (utmost) convulsion, And the earth throws up her burdens (from within), And man cries (distressed): 'What is the matter with her?'- On that Day will she declare her tidings:

At which time did men say : "What's the matter with the Earth ?" Is it in 1844, or in 2016 ?

----> massive extinction of species (this year, for instance, 70% of the Saïgas died out of a disease)
----> climatic anomalies (Have I to give examples ?)
----> sea level rising
----> fracking, that makes the Earth shake as if it was discharging its burden

A map establishing the connection between fracking and earthquakes in the US :



Quran 22:2

"The Day ye shall see it, every mother giving suck shall forget her suckling-babe, and every pregnant female shall drop her load (unformed): thou shalt see mankind as in a drunken riot, yet not drunk: but dreadful will be the Wrath of Allah."

Now that looks a bit like our era, when people look drunk when they're not (just watch TV), and when there are high abortion rates.

That's what I'm talking about, but there's a lot more examples.
Hello,

I think, if we are discussing the Prophecies of Quran, we need to also apply the rules of Quran for correct interpretations.
Notice, according to Quran, only God and those who are Well-grounded in knowledge know the interpretation of the Figurative verses. (See 3:7).
Accordinng to Hadithes, Well-Grounded people are a reference to Prophets and chosen ones of God.

You attampted to interpret the verse according to your imagination. I may also have another imagination. But neither I, nor you, is Well-Grounded in Knowledge. Therefore we need to ask, someone who was well-grounded in knowledge of Interpretation to tell us, what that verse mean, and if it came to pass or not.
I don't know anyone else, more well-grounded than Baha'u'llah.
Please refer to Book of Iqan, and other Tablets of Baha'u'llah, and see how this verse was interpreted and came to pass.

Regarding the station of Baha'u'llah, Shoghi Effendi, the infallible successor of Baha'u'llah, has said for us, that Baha'u'llah is the Promised One of All Ages.
 
Old 04-04-2016, 08:58 AM   #45
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@IT

Actually, the Quran says that we are responsible for recognizing the Signs of the Hour, because the Day of Judgement is an article of Faith.

What I notice is that :
_the Quran announces an ecological disaster that is ongoing
_the prophetic hadiths are being fulfilled (minor signs of the End)
_our era aligns with Biblical events (like the 10 Plagues of Egypt)

That is not my imagination. It's plain observation.

Moreover, most of what I see is based on people who are initiated in divine Science, as stated in 3:7.

It's not my fault if the Prophecies are being accomplished is happening bro.

And in fact, it seems pretty consistent with the Scriptures !

Quote:
The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.
That corresponds to what is happening by now, it seems.

So the more that the Baha'i Revelation looks like an avant-guarde of what is happening right now.

Cheers.

Goaforce
 
Old 04-04-2016, 10:09 AM   #46
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@IT

Actually, the Quran says that we are responsible for recognizing the Signs of the Hour, because the Day of Judgement is an article of Faith.
Quran never says, we are responcible to interprete the verses regarding the Day of Resurrection. What Quran makes people responcible, is, to believe in the Day of Resurrection.

Quote:
What I notice is that :
_the Quran announces an ecological disaster that is ongoing
_the prophetic hadiths are being fulfilled (minor signs of the End)
_our era aligns with Biblical events (like the 10 Plagues of Egypt)
The interpretations given by the Bab or Baha'u'llah regarding day of Ressurection in Quran, never talks about ecological disaster! This interpretation such ecological disater has nothing to do with Baha'I interpretetions given by Baha'u'llah or the Bab.


Quote:
That is not my imagination. It's plain observation.

Moreover, most of what I see is based on people who are initiated in divine Science, as stated in 3:7.

It's not my fault if the Prophecies are being accomplished is happening bro.

And in fact, it seems pretty consistent with the Scriptures !



That corresponds to what is happening by now, it seems.

So the more that the Baha'i Revelation looks like an avant-guarde of what is happening right now.

Cheers.

Goaforce
Only if you quote from Baha'I sources, you can make your point that the interpretation you are presenting, is infallible.
 
Old 04-04-2016, 10:40 AM   #47
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@IT

So, what you're telling me is that people all over the world are saying : "What's the matter with the Earth ?" but that it has nothing to do with the Quranic verse because the Bab and Baha'u'llah did not make exegesis of that verse ?
 
Old 04-04-2016, 11:32 AM   #48
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@IT

So, what you're telling me is that people all over the world are saying : "What's the matter with the Earth ?" but that it has nothing to do with the Quranic verse because the Bab and Baha'u'llah did not make exegesis of that verse ?
Personally I think we all have to look and meditate how this has all unfolded to Prophecy.

Sorry have not had time to pursue this discussion, but I think it is important for you to find this answer.

It may be that some of the Prophecy does take time to unfold into our reality.
One Bible Passage comes to mind is Thy Kingdom Come Thy will be Done on earth as it is in Heaven. One can see the Power has been released for this to be so, the seed planted but we rejected this when it was offered! Now even though the age of Prophecy was completed, we are told that the world now has to cling to and work for the lesser peace. The Most great Peace yet to unfold after much suffering.

I guess what I am saying it is not unusual in every revelation that all Prophecy is fulfilled Spiritually upon the Word being given but in the Material World it may unfold only in a way applicable to our free will and Level of acceptance?

We are Gods Mystery I have seen it written that God had expected mankind to be more mature. (My idea of what was read, must find that passage :-)

Regards Tony
 
Old 04-04-2016, 11:44 AM   #49
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@Tony :


Mmmm... Maybe.

Btw, according to my Imam, the Gospelic verse you mentionned was accomplished with the rising of Islam, which is the submission to the Will of the Father and its earthly kingdom.

But there are too many things that keep converging with great precision. A further explanation is to be explained.

For instance, there is in Mecca a source called Zamzam, the source of Ismail. It seems that there's a hadith saying that the course of Zamzam will not ebb before the Day of Judgement. In more than 13 centuries of Islam, the course of Zamzam did not change. until the last decade with the erection of the Abraj Al Baith in Mecca, that horrific clock tower towering the city.

Source : Mecca's creeping capitalism | Comment | Voices | The Independent
 
Old 04-04-2016, 11:58 AM   #50
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@Tony :


Mmmm... Maybe.

Btw, according to my Imam, the Gospelic verse you mentionned was accomplished with the rising of Islam, which is the submission to the Will of the Father and its earthly kingdom.

But there are too many things that keep converging with great precision. A further explanation is to be explained.

For instance, there is in Mecca a source called Zamzam, the source of Ismail. It seems that there's a hadith saying that the course of Zamzam will not ebb before the Day of Judgement. In more than 13 centuries of Islam, the course of Zamzam did not change. until the last decade with the erection of the Abraj Al Baith in Mecca, that horrific clock tower towering the city.

Source : Mecca's creeping capitalism | Comment | Voices | The Independent
I always consider the Christians see all Old Testament Prophecy for the Messiah fulfilled in Jesus, when it is obvious this is no so. Daniel and Revelation have the 1260 Year Prophecy that is now obvious to those that look is 1844AD = 1260AH. There is no better evidence in any religion than these Prophecies. Imagine if Islam could pick up passages like this in the Bible to give Proof to Muhammad. Of course they can, but in doing so have to accept the latest revelation.

In the end I think it has a level of Faith required. One can see so much fulfilled, then you have to ask yourself, how has the rest also been fulfilled if I can not see it as obvious.

I say this as a Catholic would see none of it Fulfilled in the Bahai Faith. They will not look Further. Others see a little bit fulfilled, but look no further. I guess we have to look further

Regards Tony
 
Old 04-04-2016, 12:05 PM   #51
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@Tony

That's interesting, but it does not answer my questions.

More prophecies btw :

Quote:
[Ref: Al-Daylami related in Musnad al-Firdaws from Abu Hurayrah ]


وعن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما: أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: «إن من أشراط الساعة» ... (فذكر الحديث، وفيه «ويغار على الغلمان كما يغار على الجارية البكر» .

Ibn Marduyah related from Ibn `Abbas (raḍiyAllahu `anhu) who related from the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) who said " From the signs of the hour....(and narrated the entire hadeeth in it it says and that men will marry men and women will marry women) ....and that “people (males) will feel ‘gheerah’ (protective jealousy) for young boys/men just as it is felt for a young, virgin girl.

[Ref: رواه ابن مردويه، وقد تقدم بتمامه في الباب الثاني من أشراط الساعة.]

Chapter : ما جاء في كثرة أولاد الزني | What has come regarding the numerous children born out of illegal sexual intercourse


عن ابن مسعود رضي الله عنه: أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: «يا ابن مسعود! إن من أعلام الساعة وأشراطها أن يكثر أولاد الزنى» .

Read more In sha Allah: The prophet predicted Homosexuality would be wide spread and the destruction due to it | The Final Revelation
Follow us: thefinalrevelation on Facebook
 
Old 04-04-2016, 12:06 PM   #52
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@IT

So, what you're telling me is that people all over the world are saying : "What's the matter with the Earth ?" but that it has nothing to do with the Quranic verse because the Bab and Baha'u'llah did not make exegesis of that verse ?
But you do realize that, the statement 'what's the matter with earth', can mean many things.
For example, it might be a reference to spiritual degradation of the People of the earth. It might be a allusion to wars on the earth. It could be a reference to Spiritual status of people, and how they are confused where to find the Truth. It could be an allusion to lack of Justice on earth. It could be a Reference to Old Religious Laws that are no longer useful for people...many many more.

The interpretations I refered can be found in Baha'I Scriptures as well as Islamic Hadithes. But if we say, 'what's the matter with earth' is related to what people say today, that may not be, what God meant by those words. Moreover, it was Baha'u'llah who revealed the Quran. Baha'u'llah is the return of Muhammad, the Author of Quran. He knows better what He meant by those words.
 
Old 04-04-2016, 12:12 PM   #53
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But you do realize that, the statement 'what's the matter with earth', can mean many things.
What about the more evident meaning ?

By the way, I speak of Islamic prophecies, but there are prophecies from other religions as well.

According to the Talmud (Sanhedrin treatise p.98), the clearest sign of that the Messianic era is about to come is that the land of Israel, after it has remained a desertic land during all of the exile of the Jews, will start to grow fruits abundantly.

Well, that also corresponds to our era : Spreading Israel's agricultural miracle

Another coincidence I guess ?

I can find more of these.
 
Old 04-04-2016, 12:39 PM   #54
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What about the more evident meaning ?

By the way, I speak of Islamic prophecies, but there are prophecies from other religions as well.

According to the Talmud (Sanhedrin treatise p.98), the clearest sign of that the Messianic era is about to come is that the land of Israel, after it has remained a desertic land during all of the exile of the Jews, will start to grow fruits abundantly.

Well, that also corresponds to our era : Spreading Israel's agricultural miracle

Another coincidence I guess ?

I can find more of these.
To me it is the Moment the Bab uttered the first sound to Mulla Hassan that the Prophecy was all fulfilled, the seed planted all as promised.

Gods time not our time and 100, 200, 500 years but a blink of an eye.

Mans and his time always wants instant gratification and God gives in His Time as He doeth as He Willeth.

All Knowledge was releases, all Prophecy fulfilled and its visual evidence now unfolding. Every eye Shall see.

Regards Tony
 
Old 04-04-2016, 12:52 PM   #55
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@Tony

Why avoiding the evident meaning ? So the more that fruits are not seeds.

More prophecies :

Headphones


Abu Malik al-Ash’ari (Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Soon there will be people from my Ummah who will consume alcohol, they will change its name (by regarding it permissible. m), on there heads will be instruments of music and singing.” (Sahih Ibn Hibban & Sunan Ibn Majah, with a sound chain of narration).



Modern means of transportation (airplanes, trains) :

The Last Day will not be established until …time will pass quickly. (Bukhari)

Great distances will be traversed in short spans of time. (Ahmad, Musnad)


The Bible also announces that at the end of times, people will be materialistic like they never were before

Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. Revelations 13:18

In Hebrew, the 6 is given by the letter Vav ו which is a conjunction. 666 means "and and and" which is the repetition of things on the material plane. It represents the deployment of all men's efforts on the material plane when they have lost their spiritual connection. It also corresponds to the www of internet.

Now, were people more materialistic in 1844, or are they now ?

Need more ?
 
Old 04-04-2016, 12:58 PM   #56
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I will finish here

It is not about rejection of the outward meaning. It is consideration of how it unfolds.

To me the seed of communication was the Telegraph message sent the day Gods Revelation Unfolded. On May 24th 1844 The Message sent was "What has God Wrought".

God bless your path of understanding.

Regards Tony
 
Old 04-04-2016, 01:07 PM   #57
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And what about this one. ISIS prophetized :



“It is related on the authority of ‘Ali (may Allah ennoble his countenance): ‘When you see the black flags, remain where you are and do not move your hands or your feet (It’s a common phrase meaning: “Stay put and don’t get involved in the fighting”). Thereafter there shall appear a feeble folk to whom no concern is given. Their hearts will be like fragments of iron. They are the representatives of the State (Ashab al-Dawla). They will fulfill neither covenant nor agreement. They will invite to the truth, though they are not from its people. Their names will be agnomens [i.e., Abu So-and-so], and their ascriptions will be to villages. Their hair will be long like that of women. [They shall remain so] till they differ among themselves, and then Allah will bring forth the truth from whomever He wills.'”


عن علي قال: إذا رأيتم الرايات السود فالزموا الأرض ولا تحركوا أيديكم ولا أرجلكم! ثم يظهر قوم ضعفاء لا يوبه لهم، قلوبهم كزبر الحديد، هم أصحاب الدولة، لا يفون بعهد ولا ميثاق، يدعون إلى الحق وليسوا من أهله، أسماؤهم الكنى ونسبتهم القرى، وشعورهم مرخاة كشعور النساء حتى يختلفوا فيما بينهم ثم يؤتي الله الحق من يشاء

1. Black flags: ISIS use black flags.
2. Feeble: They are newcomers to the fight in Syria and relative nobodies till they took swathes of land that was taken by other fighters.
3. Hearts like fragments of iron: Watch any of their videos and judge for yourself.
4. Ashab al-Dawla: They call themselves, the Dawla.
5. Breaking agreements: They broke agreements and refused Shariah arbitration.
6. Invite to the truth, though not from its people: Yes, they’re Khawarij (Separatists).
7. Their names will be agnomens: Of course, they’re a bunch of Abu Fulans.
8. Their ascriptions will be to villages: Villages here could be read as cities; most of them are al-Iraqi, al-Misri, al-Maghribi, al-Tunisi, etc.
9. Long hair: See Abu Ibrahim and the other assorted characters.
 
Old 04-04-2016, 02:23 PM   #58
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Hello IT.

My focus is on the Bayan and Kitáb-i-Aqdas. As far as I’m concerned these books must stand - or fall - according to their own merit.

Assuming - for the sake of discussion - that they truly are Revelations from Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) then they ought to be considered as self-sufficient and complete; having no need of support from earlier Books; or from the aHadith.

If I were a Baha’i, and if I wished to discuss with another Baha’i the Day of Judgement, for example, I would do so using only the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, and any relevant works produced by Bahá'u'lláh. Why would I need to refer to the Bible, or to the Qur’an?

It seems to me that Clex19 has the right approach (see Post 41).

By the way (reference Post 38): Like everyone else, my knowledge of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) comes from Revelation; from a study of His books; and from experiences shared with those who derived their knowledge from the same sources.

Have a nice day.

Paul
Paul (btw your namesake was also a convert) you say that your knowledge of God comes from books of revelation. Have you gained any knowledge of Him through prayer and meditation ?
 
Old 04-04-2016, 03:20 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
What about the more evident meaning ?

By the way, I speak of Islamic prophecies, but there are prophecies from other religions as well.

According to the Talmud (Sanhedrin treatise p.98), the clearest sign of that the Messianic era is about to come is that the land of Israel, after it has remained a desertic land during all of the exile of the Jews, will start to grow fruits abundantly.

Well, that also corresponds to our era : Spreading Israel's agricultural miracle

Another coincidence I guess ?

I can find more of these.
So, the Day of Resurrection has come already.

To me, what matters is to know that, we all come to this World, and some day, will take the last breath. God sent Messengers in every Age, to inform us of the purpose of life, and to show us the way, So, once we take the last breath and leave the earth forever, by then, we are able to see God with our eyes, and to hear His Words with our own ears. This Message is repeated in every Age on the Day of Resurrection.

Good Luck

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 04-04-2016 at 03:31 PM.
 
Old 04-04-2016, 04:58 PM   #60
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And what about this one. ISIS prophetized :



“It is related on the authority of ‘Ali (may Allah ennoble his countenance): ‘When you see the black flags, remain where you are and do not move your hands or your feet (It’s a common phrase meaning: “Stay put and don’t get involved in the fighting”). Thereafter there shall appear a feeble folk to whom no concern is given. Their hearts will be like fragments of iron. They are the representatives of the State (Ashab al-Dawla). They will fulfill neither covenant nor agreement. They will invite to the truth, though they are not from its people. Their names will be agnomens [i.e., Abu So-and-so], and their ascriptions will be to villages. Their hair will be long like that of women. [They shall remain so] till they differ among themselves, and then Allah will bring forth the truth from whomever He wills.'”


عن علي قال: إذا رأيتم الرايات السود فالزموا الأرض ولا تحركوا أيديكم ولا أرجلكم! ثم يظهر قوم ضعفاء لا يوبه لهم، قلوبهم كزبر الحديد، هم أصحاب الدولة، لا يفون بعهد ولا ميثاق، يدعون إلى الحق وليسوا من أهله، أسماؤهم الكنى ونسبتهم القرى، وشعورهم مرخاة كشعور النساء حتى يختلفوا فيما بينهم ثم يؤتي الله الحق من يشاء

1. Black flags: ISIS use black flags.
2. Feeble: They are newcomers to the fight in Syria and relative nobodies till they took swathes of land that was taken by other fighters.
3. Hearts like fragments of iron: Watch any of their videos and judge for yourself.
4. Ashab al-Dawla: They call themselves, the Dawla.
5. Breaking agreements: They broke agreements and refused Shariah arbitration.
6. Invite to the truth, though not from its people: Yes, they’re Khawarij (Separatists).
7. Their names will be agnomens: Of course, they’re a bunch of Abu Fulans.
8. Their ascriptions will be to villages: Villages here could be read as cities; most of them are al-Iraqi, al-Misri, al-Maghribi, al-Tunisi, etc.
9. Long hair: See Abu Ibrahim and the other assorted characters.
This was fulfilled in the Time of the Bab - The black standard was raised and carried by the Prophesized 313 Persons.

This is one of the most amazing seiges of all time Mulla Hassan was unbeatable even though tens of thousands tried to take the fort they could not succeed.

It is all in History already.

THE DAWN-BREAKERS---Chapter XIX

The news of their approach to the town of Barfurush alarmed the Sa'idu'l-'Ulama'. The widespread and growing popularity of Mulla Husayn, the circumstances attending his departure from Mashhad, the Black Standard which waved before him--above all, the number, the discipline, and the enthusiasm of his companions, combined to arouse the implacable hatred of that cruel and overbearing mujtahid. He bade the crier summon the people of Barfurush to the masjid and announce that a sermon of such momentous consequence was to be delivered by him that no loyal adherent of Islam in that neighbourhood could afford to ignore it. An immense crowd of men and women thronged the masjid, saw him ascend the pulpit, fling his turban to the ground, tear open the neck of his shirt, and bewail the plight into which the Faith had fallen. "Awake," he thundered from the pulpit, for our enemies stand at our very doors, ready to wipe out all that we cherish as pure and holy in Islam! Should we fail to resist them, none will be left to survive their onslaught. He who is the leader of that band came alone, one day, and attended my classes. He utterly ignored me and treated me with marked disdain in the presence of my assembled disciples. As I refused to accord him the honours which he expected, he angrily arose and flung me his challenge. This man had the temerity, at a time when Muhammad Shah was seated upon his throne and was at the height of his power, to assail me with so much bitterness. What excesses this stirrer-up of mischief, who is now advancing at the head of his savage band, will not commit now that the protecting hand of Muhammad Shah has been suddenly withdrawn! It is the duty of all the inhabitants of Barfurush, both young and old, both men and women, to arm themselves against these contemptible wreckers of Islam, and by every means in their power to resist their onset. To-morrow, at the hour of dawn, let all of you arise and march out to exterminate their forces."


God bless and regards Tony.

Last edited by tonyfish58; 04-04-2016 at 05:05 PM.
 
Old 04-04-2016, 10:23 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
This was fulfilled in the Time of the Bab - The black standard was raised and carried by the Prophesized 313 Persons.
This is one of the most amazing seiges of all time Mulla Hassan was unbeatable even though tens of thousands tried to take the fort they could not succeed...
Tony
I dare say that the army of black-flagged people (as it is in Islamic Hadiths) refers clearly to a group of villains; an army which comes and kills innocent people. people who say they are for the truth but in fact they are liars. so I think they cannot be the members of Molla Husayn army in Tabarsi stronghold.

Last edited by maryamr; 04-04-2016 at 10:26 PM.
 
Old 04-05-2016, 01:48 AM   #62
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@ Tony

Quote:
This was fulfilled in the Time of the Bab
Nope. Because there are 2 black flags in the hadith : the Mahdi's, and the Khawarij's. This is the Khawarij's. Unless you assume that the Babis were merciless people with fragments of iron instead of the heart, it is related to today. + there is the description of their names (agnomens and city names like Abu Al-Baghdadi) that makes no doubt.

Other prophecies about the Signs of the End, seems you don't seem convinced :

Rave parties :

Hadith Sharif #35

people will begin to dance late in the night

The Star System :

Hadith Sharif #38

people will believe the stars

Quranism :

people will claim to follow the Quran but they will reject the hadith

Unprecedented global decay :

Matthew 24:21

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

We are in a state of unprecedented tribulation since the beginning of the world.

All of these signs pile up. You can't deny these signs, people. The Hour that the Prophets warned us about is upon us, and Baha'u'llah warned us as well.

Need more prophecies ?
 
Old 04-05-2016, 04:25 AM   #63
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Dear Niblo,

The more I read of your texts, the more I feel like telling you how much I admire and respect you. To me, our faith is not necessarily about making everyone a member - that is, adopt the name. To me, it is far more important to have exchanges with adherents of all kinds of creeds and convictions, sharing all that we have in common. In the course of such exchanges, many will return to their own faiths and - in the light of those exchanges - see their essence. In the end, I believe that the result will be that many of us, regardless of our labels, will share a common spirit. I think that is the way a new world can be shaped.

You have a most respectful and considerate attitude to us, which makes our exchanges a real pleasure.

Best

from

gnat
 
Old 04-05-2016, 05:58 AM   #64
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@Gnat

Quote:

Dear Niblo,

The more I read of your texts, the more I feel like telling you how much I admire and respect you.
What I like is that he's a pragmatic person. He goes straight to the point. That's really a good reminder for the Baha'is, methink.
 
Old 04-05-2016, 07:18 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
The Qur’an was revealed by the Archangel Gabriel (ʿalayhi as-salām); Authored by Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla); and received by Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how Baha'u'llah could be both Gabriel and the 'return of Muhammad'. Proofs would be welcome.

Have a nice day.

Paul
Dear Paul,

I believe what I said, is not an exegeration of the Reality. It is indeed, the Reality.
I think we talked about this before, both regarding how Baha'u'llah is the Return of All Prophets, including Muhammad, and How Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of Allah, the revealer of Quran, who had Promised in the Quran, that He comes down, on the Day of Resurrection.
The Proofs are given many times.
According to History, Baha'u'llah did not have any education in Religions, Science, History, Arabic...etc. You are sure aware of this, if not, you can surely become aware of it, should you choose to investigate the history for yourself.
The Evidence is, Baha'u'llah is the Auther of thousands of works, including Tablets, Books, Prayers...etc.
If you examine His works, you see, He frequently quoted, Quran, Bible, Hadithes, History...etc.
Now the question is, how Baha'u'llah wrote these details.
According to History, based on observations of many witnesses, Baha'u'llah said His works, or wrote them from His Mind. So, we should ask ourselves, How did Baha'u'llah knew the verses of Quran, Bible, Hadithes and Arabic from His Memory?!
If Baha'u'llah was an ordinary man, like others, either, when He was Authering His works, He must have had Quran, Bible, History..books in front of Him, to quote from them, then, think what to writen, revise... or, He must have memorised these details of books, verses, hadithes, so that He can frequently refer and explain them in His works.

But, when we examine the thousands of pages of Historical accounts, given by witnesses and companions of Baha'u'llah, we see, Baha'u'llah had neither possessed Books, nor He had gone to school to learn. When He was Authering a work, He just said it from His mind, and so fast that, the scribers had to make an effort to keep up with the speed. So, its not like Baha'u'llah had books and resource in front of Him to copy, or had memorized them before.

One may think, there could be a trick here, that we are not aware of!

Its fine to think and investigate, so, we are not decieved! But, eventually we must make our conclusions based on evidence and historical facts, and not based on our doubtful mind! If we cannot accept facts, and believe, it is our problem, not God!

Moreover, we must consider when examining history, tehat most of the times, Baha'u'llah was in excile, and His enemies had made troubles for Him and His companions. In these stressfull situations, people make many mistakes, if they want to write Books, specially all from their own mind. Baha'u'llah wrote many of His works in Arabic, which was not His mother tongue, and He was not trained in. He wrote thousands of works, yet, we cannot find one single mistake, nor we can disprove any of His works.
Just because, He explained things different than how muslims, Christians intepreted their Books before, does not disprove Him. Notice, every Prophet ever came, He pointed out misunderstandings of the people of the past. Today is no different. As Quran says, everytime a Messenger comes that is against people's desire, they call Him imposter! We really need to be fair in our judgement, because, wheather we accept Baha'u'llah or reject Him, makes no difference for Baha'u'llah, but it can make a difference for us.
 
Old 04-05-2016, 07:57 AM   #66
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@IT and Niblo

Quote:
So, we should ask ourselves, How did Baha'u'llah knew the verses of Quran, Bible, Hadithes and Arabic from His Memory?!
Remark : Baha'u'llah's tafsir are outstanding :

Commentary on the Surah of the Sun

Niblo, it's a must read for you.

Remark : according to the Bayan, Muhammad authored the Gospel, and Jesus authored the Torah. (Can you confirm that ? It might be the contrary.) It's a symbolic statement meaning that one Manifestation is created for the following one. This is where the reference of Baha'u'llah as authoring the Quran comes from.

Btw IT, what's the reference for that claim ? (Baha'u'llah's authorship of Quran ?)

Blessings,

Goaforce
 
Old 04-05-2016, 10:49 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
Btw IT, what's the reference for that claim ? (Baha'u'llah's authorship of Quran ?)

Blessings,

Goaforce
Somewhere in this Tablet:

Lawh-i-Hasan-i-Sháhábadí


He shineth from the Horizon of the Heaven of true Knowledge
with Wisdom and Utterance!

O Hasan! Hearken unto the Call of Husayn[2] Who hath been incarcerated in the Prison Fortress of ’Akká by reason of that which the hands of the heedless have wrought. If one were to question them,[3] “by what reason have ye imprisoned Him?”, they would reply: “Verily, He hath come with a new Shariah and this new Shariah doth not accord with the Law under which we have been. To this matter testifieth our Book which is called the Qur’án, a Book that is from God,[4] the Lord of all mankind. See that which the All-Merciful hath revealed therein: ‘Verily He[5] is the Messenger of God, and the Seal of the Prophets.’”[6]

To this We reply: “Indeed thou speaketh the truth. We do testify that through Him,[7] Messengership[8] and Prophethood[9] have both been sealed and any one claiming after Him this most exalted station is in manifest error.[10] Nevertheless, O Questioner! Hearken unto My voice which sayeth: “Open thine eyes that thou mayest behold the Most Great Beauty,[11] through Whom speaketh the Lord of divine decree. By God! Through Him the ‘Hour’[12] hath appeared, and the ‘Resurrection’[13] hath come to pass, and the ‘Moon’[14] hath been cleft asunder and thou wouldst behold all in a ‘continuing Regeneration’ if thou be of them that possess insight.

“Verily, through His Advent hath come to be fulfilled the Advent about which glad tidings have been given by the Messengers of God from all eternity and there hath come to pass about which God hath revealed in the Qur’án: ‘On that Day they shall all rise before the Lord of mankind.’[15] Truly the Cycle of Prophethood hath been rolled up and He Who hath sent down the Prophets hath come, arrayed with a manifest and perspicuous sovereignty. He, verily, is the One at Whose Advent all created things have given this utterance: ‘The Kingdom is God’s, the Sovereign, the Almighty, the All-Praised.’ He is the One for Whom the necks of God’s Chosen Saints have been outstretched in longing and ardent expectation and every Prophet hath awaited His Presence in this wondrous Day. He is the One through Whom the ‘One Unseen and Hidden’ hath been made manifest, the One Whom no one hath known save He Himself,[16] the one King over all mankind.[17] Peruse ye the Qur’án and all God’s Books revealed in the past that haply ye may recognize this Day, illumined by the Countenance of thy Lord, the Manifest, the Perspicuous One.”

Thus have We illumined the horizon of the firmaments of this Tablet with the Luminary of Our Word, a Word through which God hath brought into being all creation from all eternity to all eternity. Praise be to God, the Lord of all the worlds!


Tablet to Hasan-i-Sháhábadí
 
Old 04-05-2016, 02:30 PM   #68
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@IT

Actually, the Quran says that we are responsible for recognizing the Signs of the Hour, because the Day of Judgement is an article of Faith.

What I notice is that :
_the Quran announces an ecological disaster that is ongoing
_the prophetic hadiths are being fulfilled (minor signs of the End)
_our era aligns with Biblical events (like the 10 Plagues of Egypt)

That is not my imagination. It's plain observation.

Moreover, most of what I see is based on people who are initiated in divine Science, as stated in 3:7.

It's not my fault if the Prophecies are being accomplished is happening bro.

And in fact, it seems pretty consistent with the Scriptures !



That corresponds to what is happening by now, it seems.

So the more that the Baha'i Revelation looks like an avant-guarde of what is happening right now.

Cheers.

Goaforce
@GoaForce and @IT

Abdu'l-Baha wrote in the Tablets of the Divine Plan that World War One would be a fulfillment of prophecies from Daniel and Revelations (if I recall correctly). Since that happened after the death of Baha'u'llah, we have a precedent of prophecies, written in past dispensations, being fulfilled after the passing of Bah'u'llah and during His Dispensation.

Additionally, I previously researched similar events in the Writings, and found authoritative texts clearly indicating that some prophecies can be fulfilled more than once. I can't recall the details now, but I know they are out there. (I found them on the Reference Library site and at Bahai-Library while researching dates given in Daniel.)

I would suggest that one legitimate Baha'i view of prophecy is that all the prophecies that the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi say have been fulfilled have been fulfilled, but that there may be fulfilled again in other ways according to alternative interpretations. I personally believe that a single verse of God can have myriad meanings, and that this is most true with the figurative verses, which all prophecies I know fall under.
 
Old 04-06-2016, 09:43 AM   #69
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Dear gnat.

Thank you very much. That’s remarkably kind of you, my friend. I’m very touched. The feeling is mutual.

It’s easy to be respectful and considerate when one deals with respectful and considerate people, such as the sisters and brothers on this site. My thanks to all of you.

Very best wishes,

Paul
Well, you know, I have my own personal view of all that love talk that we religious people are so fond of. It has to be combined with an equal amount of tolerance, because otherwise there is a great risk that that love turns into hatred when it is hurt. But with love and tolerance, there is hope for the world. :-)

gnat
 
Old 04-06-2016, 12:20 PM   #70
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@Paul

Hello !

Quote:
’ve not seen in the Bayan that Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) authored the Gospel; or that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) authored the Taurat.

This notion might have arisen from a misreading of Wahid II, Chapter 19:

‘Concerning this, that whatever is in the Bayan is a gift from God to Him whom God shall manifest. The writings of the Manifestation of the Truth in each Theophany are a gift from God to Him in His next Manifestation. Thus, for example, what God revealed to Jesus was a gift from God to Muhammad the Apostle of God.’
I know that verse, but it's not this one. Mmmm... I remember that it was something about one Manifestation creating the religion of the one to come, in very specific terms. Anyway.

Quote:
As you know, among the books considered by the Muslims to be revealed by Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) we have - in order of appearance - the Taurat (to Moses); the Zabur - Psalms - (to David); the Injil (to Yeshua); and, of course, Qur'an itself (to Muhammad).
Yup, and Abraham's leaves (that I assume to be the collection of the Bible, Quran, the Avesta, the Sutras and all major Books delivered by God to mankind as religious guidance).

Quote:
he Apostle of God’ imply that the Taurat was authored by Moses but gifted by Allāh to David; that the Zabur was authored by David,
I don't think that the Bayan considers the Zabur to be in that list, due to the fact that David is not seen as a Manifestation of God. Therefore, the Zabur is not a Book in Which the Primal Will re-created the Creation.


Quote:
and that the Kitáb-i-Aqdas was authored by Baha’u’llah, but is intended to be gifted to someone unknown.
It makes sense.

Quote:
In šāʾ Allāh, I’m going to present Baha’u’llah’s commentary in one post; followed by a second post containing a commentary by Sayyid Quṭb; taken from Volume 18 of his ‘In the Shade of the Qur’an’.
Awesome !

Thanks for sharing Sayyid Qutb's tafsir. It's interesting and insightful. (However, I do prefer that of Baha'u'llah, which just blew my mind )

Blessings,

GoaForce

PS : By the way, what do you think of all the propechies that I mentionned about the End of Times and the coming of the Messiah ?

PS2 : Thanks Niblo ! I've just understood the meaning of the Bayanic order of bequeathing paper sheets thanks to your questions !

Last edited by GoaForce; 04-06-2016 at 12:30 PM.
 
Old 04-06-2016, 01:29 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
@Paul

Hello !



I know that verse, but it's not this one. Mmmm... I remember that it was something about one Manifestation creating the religion of the one to come, in very specific terms. Anyway.



Yup, and Abraham's leaves (that I assume to be the collection of the Bible, Quran, the Avesta, the Sutras and all major Books delivered by God to mankind as religious guidance).



I don't think that the Bayan considers the Zabur to be in that list, due to the fact that David is not seen as a Manifestation of God. Therefore, the Zabur is not a Book in Which the Primal Will re-created the Creation.




It makes sense.



Awesome !

Thanks for sharing Sayyid Qutb's tafsir. It's interesting and insightful. (However, I do prefer that of Baha'u'llah, which just blew my mind )

Blessings,

GoaForce

PS : By the way, what do you think of all the propechies that I mentionned about the End of Times and the coming of the Messiah ?

PS2 : Thanks Niblo ! I've just understood the meaning of the Bayanic order of bequeathing paper sheets thanks to your questions !
According to the Bab's Writings, there are Two Prophets by the Name 'David'.
One of them revealed the Zabur, and the other David, revealed Psalms.
These two Books are different from each other. Zabur was revealed about 500 years before Moses by the other David. The Muslim scholars seem to think, Zabur is the same as psalms. In Arabic, the two Books are different names!
 
Old 04-06-2016, 01:31 PM   #72
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@IT :

Quote:
According to the Bab's Writings, there are Two Prophets by the Name 'David'.
One of them revealed the Zabur, and the other David, revealed Psalms.
WOW.
Thanks man.
Could you back up that statement with verses from the Scriptures please ?

Thanks.
 
Old 04-06-2016, 03:15 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
@IT :



WOW.
Thanks man.
Could you back up that statement with verses from the Scriptures please ?

Thanks.
Yes, I can. David - Bahai9
 
Old 04-07-2016, 07:42 AM   #74
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Quote:
In your reply you refer to ‘thousands of pages of Historical accounts’ that support your claims. I assume you have examined these accounts; in which case, I would be grateful if you could let me know where I can access them.
Dear Paul,

For the history of Revelation of Baha'u'llah, there are many books available. Many of them you can find online. For example, the books called 'Revelation of Baha'u'llah', dawn breakers, Memories of Baha'u'llah, God passes by, a Traveler's Narrative.
There are some other books, that I know in Persian. I am not sure they are available in English or not. Most likely they are if you look for them.

Quote:
claim that Baha'u'llah did not receive any education. This is incorrect.

As you know, he was the son of a wealthy government minister. As such, he was educated privately (a common practice among the well-to-do of his day). He studied Arabic; literature; calligraphy; and classic poetry from childhood. We know he had contact with Sufi mystics, with philosophers and with alchemists. He was, by all accounts, a very intelligent person (smart enough in any event to convince you that he is the Archangel Gabriel ).
Please support your claim with factual historical data, that Baha'u'llah received these education extensively, and at what Age, and for how long.

Those children that were born in Noble families, had basic education in reading and writing, poetry. But Baha'u'llah had mostly, education in swordmanship and horsemanship, according to history.


Notice that, the term 'education', can be understood differently.
For example, a person has an elementry education. Another person has university education. Notice in both case, the word 'education' is used. But, it is all about 'how much' education. This is what we are talking about.

For example, I went to school in Iran. It was mandetory to take Arabic courses, as well as Quran and Religion courses in Iran. So, I took about 7 courses in Arabic, 7 courses in Quran and 7 in Islamic studies for 7 years.
I tell you the truth. After taking these courses, I could not even write a single sentence in Arabic fluently. I could not even translate a single verse of Quran correctly. Well, except for the well known verses, such as "in the Name of God, the most kind....." And that is Not just me!, but ask other Iranians!
Notice that, in Iran, there is a special school for Muslim Clergy men. They study there for years, to learn about Quran and Hadithes.

The Noble Men in Persia, did not have any of these education. And Certainly Baha'u'llah did not even take as much courses as I did!

Those who imagine, it is possible to write verses like those Baha'u'llah wrote, with some just some basic education, they don't know what they are talking about!

Notice that the Bab wrote a whole Book called Qayyum-alasma. It is in the style of Quran. Has 111 Surahs, and verse are the same style of Quran. To appreciate this, one needs to know, how difficult it is to write verses like Quran. Perhaps, if a person, who has lots of training in Arabic and Quran, thinks and tries, can come up with some verses after writing and revising. But to say verses fluently, without stoping and thinking is in my openion suppernatural.



Quote:
The fact that Baha'u'llah authored thousands of works is proof only that he loved to write; and had the time to do so. The fact that he was able to quote from the Qur’an; from the Bible; and from other works proves only that he had a very good memory, or else that he relied on books immediately available to him (which might account for his refusal to destroy book, under Bayan law). He had access to the Bayan, and almost certainly to other Bábi works.
Please bring factual historical accounts to support that, Baha'u'llah had memorized verses of Quran, bible, Hadithes, history. Or bring historical accounts, that Baha'u'llah, had access to these books, while writings.

Quote:
The ability to dictate faster than a scribe can write is not confined to Baha'u'llah. Nor is it a sign of Divine guidance. Any secretary or PA will confirm this!
Notice, even I can speak, so fast, that, no man can keep up with my speech to record them by pen.
But, let's not do illogical fallacy.
For a person, who virtually had no education in Arabic, history, or religion, to dictate these topics fluently and fast without making mistakes, is impossible, unless He has supernatural power.



Quote:
To say we cannot disprove any of his works (by which you mean claims) is nonsense. We know that his works contain both historical and scientific errors.
No!
There has been claims that there are errors. But in fact, it cannot be proved!




Quote:
Copper, for example, does not become gold (nor vice versa). Here are Baha'u'llah’s words, translated from the original Farsi:



‘From amongst the doubts that the polytheists have induced in this land is (the question) that how is it possible for gold to transmute into copper? Say, "Yes (it is possible), by my Lord, but we have the knowledge and teach it to whoever we want through a knowledge from our side. Whoever has doubts should ask his Lord to show him so that he becomes one of those who has certitude." The (fact) that copper can attain the state of gold is a clear reason that gold can retain its original state (meaning copper), (they would understand) this if they had any sense. All metals can attain the weight (wazn), face (surat), and substance (maddih) of each other, but we have this knowledge in a hidden book. We say that the knowledge of the deniers has not reached a state for them to understand that gold transmutes into gold and they have not understood yet that it can turn into earth. This state is visible for all those who have any sense, that they all originated from earth and to earth they will return. Earths importance and price is cheaper than copper for (earth) is from the masses (ajsam) and copper is from the bodies (ajsad). This is very obvious and evident and if the people had been mature and worthy we would have definitely uttered some of the secret Divine Sciences.’ (Abd al-Hamid Ishraq Khawari: ‘Ma’idiy-i asimani’; Vol. 7, pages 18-19).

Baha'u'llah is writing as an alchemist; using terms peculiar to that practice. He claims that all metals (and not just gold and copper) can transmute, but that the process of transmutation must remain a secret; not to be shared with those deemed unworthy to receive it.

It is claimed by some that Baha'u'llah was referring to the processes of nuclear physics which - since unknown in his day - he must have known through Divine guidance. The difficulty with this claim is that he describes, in detail, the exact mechanism by which (he believes) copper transmutes into gold:

‘For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state. Be that as it may, the real elixir will, in one instant, cause the substance of copper to attain the state of gold, and will traverse the seventy-year stages in a single moment.’ (Kitab-i-Iqan: page 157).

It is claimed by some that Baha'u'llah (in this passage) is merely narrating the beliefs of others. However, his statement: ‘There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state’ demonstrates that his own ideas are also being expressed.

That Baha'u'llah believed in the transmutation of copper into gold can be seen in other writings of his:

‘The King of the Names (God) has made the possibility in some things to change and in others He hasn’t. For instance, copper can transmute into Gold but earth/soil (turab) does not have this possibility in actualness (bil-fi`l). Since the scientists (meaning alchemists) have already mentioned these subjects this servant did not like to mention it comprehensively.’ (Abd al-Hamid Ishraq Khawari: ‘Ma’idiy-i asimani’; Vol. 7, page 44).
Notice, in your words, you have said:

"It is claimed by some, so and so"

My question is Who are these 'some' that you are referring to?

The Baha'I faith is clear, how to approach its scriptures.
Baha'u'llah revealed the verses. Only Abdulbaha or Shoghi Effendi can explain the verses of Baha'u'llah.

The problem in the logic that is presented in those objection, is, as if, people had tried but did not work.
Please refer to explanation given by Shoghi Effandi, regarding conversion of copper to gold.
Briefly, according to science, copper can be changed to gold. But no body has tried the method and in the specific conditions that Baha'u'llah is explaning.
The only way to prove Baha'u'llah wrong, is to try it, and show it doesn't work.
This is the condition Baha'u'llah is saying:

"Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold."


My question to you is, did anybody try to protect the copper in its own mine from becoming solidified, to see if within 70 years, it turns to gold or not?
If no body tried it, how do you know it doesn't work?

Quote:
So much for scientific errors. Baha'u'llah’s historical errors can be seen in remarks concerning the age of the Earth. He writes:

‘The learned men, that have fixed at several thousand years the age of this world, have failed, throughout the long period of their observation, to consider either the number or the age of the other planets. Consider, moreover, the manifold divergencies that have resulted from the theories propounded by these men.’ (‘Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah; page 163).

At the time Baha'u'llah was writing ‘learned men’ had not ‘fixed at several thousand years the age of this world’. In 1779 the French naturalist, Comte du Buffon, estimated the age of the Earth to be some 75000 years. The Russian polymath Mikhail Vasilyevich Lomonosov (1711-1765) concluded that the Earth was some several hundred thousand years old. In 1862, the British physicist, William Thomson, estimated the age of the Earth at between twenty and four-hundred million years.

Surely, a man guided by Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) would have known this?
But, you are changing the words of Baha'u'llah, to show His words wrong.
Notic, it is obvious, Baha'u'llah is rebuking, those men, who thought the earth was just thousands of years. He does not say, all men, have thought the earth is just thousands of years, or no man existed that thought correctly. Please read them accurately.


Quote:
Robert Stockman writes:

‘There are many stories in the Baha’i community about the supernatural access to information that Bahá'u'lláh had. My point here is not to dispute these stories; merely to say these superhuman mechanisms do not seem to have been working at every instant. If they had, Bahá'u'lláh would not have read newspapers, as He suggests He may have done. Further, when one examines the historical and cultural information contained in Bahá'u'lláh's writings one notes that the knowledge to which He customarily refers is information that would have been available to Him via ordinary nineteenth-century means. Bahá'u'lláh never reveals a commentary on Confucian ethics or Buddhist cosmology, neither of which would have been readily available in nineteenth-century Persian or Arabic. He does not discuss Olmec hymns or Indo-European myths, none of which are available to even twentieth-century scholars, but which must have existed and which must have contained profound statements worthy of discussion, commentary, and praise by a Manifestation of God.

‘(In) Juan R. I. Cole's detailed and controversial exploration titled "Problems of Chronology in Bahá'u'lláh's Tablet of Wisdom" (we are told that) Bahá'u'lláh both quoted from and paraphrased Islamic philosophers, including historical information from them that contradicts the far more precise understanding of the ancient world that modern history and archaeology have constructed.
That Baha'u'llah did not write about other subject, is not a prove that He was not aware. This is related to His mission. He talked about the things that was related to His mission, which was bringing peace and unity, and also correct the misinterpretation of Quran and Bible, because the people of that geographic location, were of this background.
If you notice, Quran also does not talk about everything.

Quote:
‘For example, Bahá'u'lláh states that the Greek philosopher Empedocles "was a contemporary" of King David, "while Pythagoras lived in the days of Solomon". Modern historians place David's reign from circa 1010-970 B.C.E. and Solomon's as 970-30 B.C.E.; Empedocles's birth and death dates as c. 490 and 430 B.C.E. and Pythagoras' as c. 580-500 B.C.E. In short, modern history places a 400-500 year gap between the Greeks and the Israelites and reverses the birth order of the philosophers.

‘Modern historians would view the dates as extremely reliable, with errors of a few years to a decade at most; a greater change in the dates would violate radiocarbon dates, ancient Egyptian written records, and do severe violence to ancient Greek histories.’ (‘Scripture and Revelation’)
This topic is explained by Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi, you can refer to them.


In general, it is always possible to come up with scenarios to repudiate Messengers. But, it just fails, when it comes to prove!

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 04-07-2016 at 08:07 AM.
 
Old 04-07-2016, 08:40 AM   #75
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@Paul

Hello

Quote:
You claim that Baha'u'llah did not receive any education. This is incorrect.

As you know, he was the son of a wealthy government minister.
It seems that he was an educated person indeed, but he did not take courses and did not follow religious studies. It also seems that he spend some time educating himself by taking contact with some scholars.

Quote:
(smart enough in any event to convince you that he is the Archangel Gabriel )
I don't think he ever said that.
So the more that Gabriel lives in his own archangelic realm.

Quote:
The ability to dictate faster than a scribe can write is not confined to Baha'u'llah. Nor is it a sign of Divine guidance.
If it's a memorable work, it definitely is.

Quote:
We know that his works contain both historical and scientific errors. Copper, for example, does not become gold (nor vice versa).
I think it's a bit unfair to say this. Alchemy has a spiritual purpose, and these images are poetic illustrations of our spiritual mutations.

Quote:
It is claimed by some that Baha'u'llah was referring to the processes of nuclear physics which - since unknown in his day - he must have known through Divine guidance.
He actually quotes a poem from a mystic. The "Sun inside of asplit atom" is not from him.

Quote:
The learned men, that have fixed at several thousand years the age of this world, have failed, throughout the long period of their observation, to consider either the number or the age of the other planets. Consider, moreover, the manifold divergencies that have resulted from the theories propounded by these men.’
I see no problem with that sentence either.
Here, Niblo, I am surprized at your sudden lack of subtlety. It reminds me a bit of these cheap arguments used to debunk the Quran and the Islamic tradition.

@IT

Quote:
Yes, I can. David - Bahai9
Interesting read, but it's frustrating that it doesn't actually contain verses from the very Writings of the Gate. Thanks anyway.

Quote:
My question to you is, did anybody try to protect the copper in its own mine from becoming solidified, to see if within 70 years, it turns to gold or not?
If no body tried it, how do you know it doesn't work?
I'm pretty sure it'd remain copper ahah xD

Now, what is matter. It is materialized spirit. It means that it's possible to make it become spiritual again. And in that spiritual realm, chemical elements have a new meaning. My take.

Blessings

Goaforce
 
Old 04-07-2016, 09:02 AM   #76
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Joined: Jul 2014
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Posts: 1,132
I should say dear Niblo respectfully, that what you have said kind of makes me angry! I know I should not get angry but I will show you now the reasons why I do!

first you have said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
I asked if you would be kind enough to enlighten us ...
do you see the sarcastic tone of your speech? I am sorry for talking this directly but your sarcasm is so obvious that I cannot not see it!

then here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
You claim that Baha'u'llah did not receive any education. This is incorrect...
first of all, I think in order to learn about life of Baha'ulah on earth, you should look at historical books AND ask Baha'is. they may tell you more than Muslims will tell. second, who has said that "he was educated privately (a common practice among the well-to-do of his day)"? have you studied the history of Iran in those days? and still, I guess I read somewhere that Baha'ullah received some very basic education. I guess he only learnt to write and read. but then for some reasons He did not continue. and again in those days, people, even if they were from a wealthy family, could not easily find Bible and Torah in order to memorize verses. (and by the way, Mohammad too, has brought some parts of Torah and Bible in Quran. so why don't you say that He had merely memorized those parts in order to use them later??? do not be this much biased!)... by the way, did you know that the same thing (being educated) is said about Mohammad? I can provide you with proofs even from accepted Hadiths and history. so being educated to a very basic level is not the kind of education we mean when we say He was not educated.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
The fact that Baha'u'llah authored thousands of works is proof only that he loved to write; and had the time to do so....
funny! and again sarcastic!had time to do so! no one will put such extensive amount of time on writing something which will endanger all his life.

then:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
To say we cannot disprove any of his works (by which you mean claims) is nonsense. We know that his works contain both historical and scientific errors....
and you have dedicated a many lines to bring proofs. again I suggest an unbiased reading of the Baha'i scripture dear Niblo. and also if you search google, even if only a very basic search about "errors in Quran" you will find tens of pages that mention all the "scientific and historical" errors in Quran. there are many many many errors in it if we want to read Quran in a superficial level. I am not going to mention the errors because you can easily search and find and read them. Christians and Jews and atheists have talked about errors in Quran but Baha'i is the only faith which has prooved all those "seemingly" errors to not be an error at all. how? with explaining that Quranic lines must be examined in a symbolic level. now the same is true about Baha'i scripture. I am not going to bring examples. you can read for yourself if you are interested.

and:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
(In) Juan R. I. Cole's...
apart from what he has said, it is better to know that in order to know the truth of Quran, we never ask it from an enemy of Quran. so you do not do the same about Baha'i. Cole apparently does not enough "deep" knowledge of the scripture. anyway....

and:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
If this is all the proof you can proffer that Baha'u'llah was both Gabriel and the 'return of Muhammad' then you’re in a spot of bother, my friend.
IT has said that Quran is revealed by Bahaullah but he has not said that Bahaullah is Gabriel. it is better you ask him directly to explain to you briefly what he has meant. as I have understood, even Abdul Baha has talked in one of His writings about nature of Gabriel and there He has never mentioned that Gabriel is Baha'ullah. but if you have any problems in understanding the symbolism in "Quran being revealed by Baha'ullah" you may also take a look at some Ayahs in Quran such as "ma Ramayta Ez Ramayta" (when You (Mohammad) shoot the arrow, it was not You who shoot the arrow.) so if you wonder how can anyone be revealer of Quran and at the same time a messenger of God, you may then please explain to me how can anyone throw an arrow while he does not throw the arrow!

anyway... I hope I was not impolite and I hope you put time on reading the rather long comment. sorry for its length, I could not make it shorter.

Allaho Abha

Last edited by maryamr; 04-07-2016 at 10:09 AM.
 
Old 04-07-2016, 09:50 AM   #77
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Joined: Sep 2010
From: Canada
Posts: 1,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post

IT has said that Quran is revealed by Bahaullah but he has not said that Bahaullah is Gabriel. it is better you ask him directly to explain to you briefly what he has meant. as I have understood, even Abdul Baha has talked in one of His writings about nature of Gabriel and there He has never mentioned that Gabriel is Baha'ullah. but if you have any problems in understanding the symbolism in "Quran being revealed by Baha'ullah" you may also take a look at some Ayahs in Quran such as "ma Ramayta Ez Ramayta" (when You (Mohammad) shoot the arrow, it was not You who shoot the arrow.) so if you wonder how can anyone be revealer of Quran and at the same time a messenger of God, you may then please explain to me how can anyone throw an arrow while he does not throw the arrow!


Yes, that is a good example, when Muhammad threw the arrow, and He said it was God.
This statement is no different than, it was Muhammad who said the verses of Quran, but He said it was God who revealed the Quran.

That is because, He was a Manifestation of God. His actions, words, were all Manifestation of the Words and Will of God. Indeed He, Himself was the Allah that He spoke of.

If yesterday a Mirror was facing the Sun of Reality, the Mirror perfectly manifested the image of the Sun, within it.
Today a different Mirror, is facing the Sun, but it manifests the image of the same Sun.

Now, the Auther of Quran, was the Sun of Reality. Once He manifested in Muhammad, and this Time in Baha'u'llah.
 
Old 04-08-2016, 04:21 AM   #78
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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From: Normanton Far North Queensland
Posts: 3,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat View Post
Dear Niblo,

The more I read of your texts, the more I feel like telling you how much I admire and respect you. To me, our faith is not necessarily about making everyone a member - that is, adopt the name. To me, it is far more important to have exchanges with adherents of all kinds of creeds and convictions, sharing all that we have in common. In the course of such exchanges, many will return to their own faiths and - in the light of those exchanges - see their essence. In the end, I believe that the result will be that many of us, regardless of our labels, will share a common spirit. I think that is the way a new world can be shaped.

You have a most respectful and considerate attitude to us, which makes our exchanges a real pleasure.

Best

from

gnat
I was away and returned and Niblo vanished from this Post!

God bless you Niblo - Regards Tony
 
Old 04-08-2016, 11:25 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
I was away and returned and Niblo vanished from this Post!

God bless you Niblo - Regards Tony
It seems to me that he vanished entirely.

No Niblo, no fun. :-(

gnat
 
Old 04-08-2016, 12:29 PM   #80
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Joined: Oct 2014
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Posts: 1,476
No, Niblo is still registered. I'm relieved.

gnat
 
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