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Old 03-30-2016, 09:34 AM   #1
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The Bab and the Day of Judgment

As i was reading Bayan now, I reached a part in which The Bab warns people about the day of judgment which will come AFTER Him. until now I was thinking that the Day of Judgment has started at the beginning of the declaration of the Bab because we say that the Bab is the same Qaim.
can anyone tell me why the Bab has not named His own time as the Day of Judgment?
 
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Old 03-30-2016, 10:28 AM   #2
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Most likely, He referred to Bahá'u'lláh's Declaration.

gnat
 
Old 03-30-2016, 10:36 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
Most likely, He referred to Bahá'u'lláh's Declaration.

gnat
yes. it is true. the Bab has in a way said that the time of Baha'ullah declaration is the beginning of the Day of Judgment. but what I cannot understand is that according to Muslim understanding, Qaim, who is the next prophet after Mohammad, will come on the Day of Judgment. now if Bahaullah is the Qaim so what is the station of the Bab and why there is no reference to a prophet coming BEFORE the day of judgment anywhere in Quran?
 
Old 03-30-2016, 01:42 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
As i was reading Bayan now, I reached a part in which The Bab warns people about the day of judgment which will come AFTER Him. until now I was thinking that the Day of Judgment has started at the beginning of the declaration of the Bab because we say that the Bab is the same Qaim.
can anyone tell me why the Bab has not named His own time as the Day of Judgment?
I wonder from where I might obtain a copy of the Bayan
 
Old 03-30-2016, 02:04 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
yes. it is true. the Bab has in a way said that the time of Baha'ullah declaration is the beginning of the Day of Judgment. but what I cannot understand is that according to Muslim understanding, Qaim, who is the next prophet after Mohammad, will come on the Day of Judgment. now if Bahaullah is the Qaim so what is the station of the Bab and why there is no reference to a prophet coming BEFORE the day of judgment anywhere in Quran?
Well, our "Day" does not exactly correspond to an ordinary, solar 24 h day.

gnat
 
Old 03-30-2016, 02:33 PM   #6
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In the Bayan, the next Day of Judgement is that of the Next Manifestation.
 
Old 03-30-2016, 11:35 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by AidanK View Post
I wonder from where I might obtain a copy of the Bayan
if you look for a complete version then you can most probably get it only from a Bayanic person :P (my version is in Persian and has only excerpts)
 
Old 03-31-2016, 12:41 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
yes. it is true. the Bab has in a way said that the time of Baha'ullah declaration is the beginning of the Day of Judgment. but what I cannot understand is that according to Muslim understanding, Qaim, who is the next prophet after Mohammad, will come on the Day of Judgment. now if Bahaullah is the Qaim so what is the station of the Bab and why there is no reference to a prophet coming BEFORE the day of judgment anywhere in Quran?
Maryamr - According to the Bahai Writings the Dispensation of a Messenger is the Day of Judgement.

Thus from the declaration of the Bab to the Declaration of Baha'u'llah was the Day of Judgement of the Babs Revelation.

The Judgment Day of the Bahai revelation started with the declaration of Baha'u'llah until the next messenger.

From my research the Bab was the promised Qaim of the Muslim Faith and Baha'u'llah was the promised return of Jesus Christ

What is unique here is that there was another Prophet of God Living in the Judgement day of the Bab that puts an interesting meditation upon it all

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/o/BNE/bne-175.html

So a random thought from me - It could be that these days of Judgement are bound to each other and that as the Bab came to prepare the way for Baha'u'llah, Judgement Day for both the Bab and Baha'u'llah started together and are bound in eternity?



Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 03-31-2016 at 12:45 AM.
 
Old 03-31-2016, 02:08 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
Maryamr - According to the Bahai Writings the Dispensation of a Messenger is the Day of Judgement.

Thus from the declaration of the Bab to the Declaration of Baha'u'llah was the Day of Judgement of the Babs Revelation.

The Judgment Day of the Bahai revelation started with the declaration of Baha'u'llah until the next messenger.

From my research the Bab was the promised Qaim of the Muslim Faith and Baha'u'llah was the promised return of Jesus Christ

What is unique here is that there was another Prophet of God Living in the Judgement day of the Bab that puts an interesting meditation upon it all

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 219-220

So a random thought from me - It could be that these days of Judgement are bound to each other and that as the Bab came to prepare the way for Baha'u'llah, Judgement Day for both the Bab and Baha'u'llah started together and are bound in eternity?



Regards Tony
does that mean that the "day of judgment" talked about by Muslims is only those very brief years from declaration of The Bab until the declaration of Bahaullah???? but it is said that the world must be filled with justice in the Day of Judgment while this did not happen during the time between Bab and Bahaullah. also we cannot say that this will happen in the dispensation of Bahaullah because then what about dispensation of the Bab? that dispensation is the day of judgment which Muslims are awaiting!
 
Old 03-31-2016, 12:20 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hello Aidan.

The Bayan has some very interesting ‘Laws’.

From the Persian Bayan:

‘It is unlawful to teach books other than the Bayan unless there be therein something relating to Scholastic Philosophy (Ilm-i- Kalam), but Logic, Principles, and Jurisprudence, Philosophy, and dead languages, and the like, are forbidden, as also what has been written on (Arabic) Grammar and Syntax: unless anyone should desire to learn so much of the latter as may suffice him to read the Bayan, though there are so many of the writings of the Point in Persian that this is unnecessary for him.’ (Wahid IV, Chapter 10).

‘Concerning the command to take the possessions of those who do not believe in the Bayan, and the command to restore it, if they enter the Faith, except in those countries wherein its seizure is impossible. In the day of the Manifestation of the Apostle of God (Muhammad), the soul of naught that breathed was its own; how then that which is subsidiary to life? Unless it entered his religion; whereupon that which God hath bestowed on it became lawful to it. So also in the Manifestation of Him whom God shall manifest, no soul is lawful to its possessor unless it believe in Him, and all shall be taken from all, except that which enter under the shadow of His Religion. This command is to powerful Kings in the Faith, not to all. And in countries wherein it would become the cause of sadness or loss to anyone, God hath not ordered it to be made manifest; as, for instance, in the case of merchants in the countries of the Franks; such must keep their accounts with the utmost diligence, lest disgrace befall them.’ (Wahid V, Chapter 5).

‘The command to destroy all books except such as have been or shall be composed in this religion. So, though there had been many heavenly books from the time of Adam till the time of the Qur’an, all were removed and those who continued to believe in them were pronounced untrue. If it be so with divine books, how shall it be with books of creatures which beside those books are as a reflection in a mirror compared to the Sun?’ (Wahid VI, Chapter 6).

‘God has made it incumbent on every King who is raised up in the Religion of the Bayan to allow no one in his land who believes not this religion, and the same is incumbent on all men, except in the case of merchants who trade in what is advantageous to men, like the Letters of the Gospel. In the Manifestation of Him whom God shall manifest, the same order holds good of those who do not believe in him. This is that the Tree of Truth may not witness in that land wherein he appears any but believers in him, and that in Paradise, there may be no persons of Hell-Fire. The permission to merchants is only given to those who trade on a large scale, and no unbelievers who are in an inglorious condition are to be allowed in the country at all.’ (Wahid VII, Chapter 16).

‘Concerning the renewal of all books after 202 years have passed over them; and the destruction of what was written before, or its bestowal on someone. God wishes all things to become new in this Manifestation; therefore every 202 years everyone must renew his books, either cast them into fresh water, or give them to some one. This is that no letter may become capable of causing aversion, for 70,000 angels watch over every letter, and at the moment of its destruction they preserve it. These angels are pleased when they see anything well written; the Bayan must always be written most carefully.’ (Wahid VII, Chapter 1).

‘It is incumbent on everyone to leave to his heirs 19 sheets of fine paper and 19 rings whereon are engraved some of the Names of God; and that none shall inherit from the dead but his father, and his mother, and his wife and his sister, and his brother, and he who has taught him.’ (Wahid VIII, Chapter 2).

‘Everyone must read 700 of the verses of the Bayan, night and day. And if he be not able, let him mention God 700 times by saying ’Allahu Azhar’ (God is most manifest).’ (Wahid VIII, Chapter 14).

From the Arabic Bayan:

‘You must destroy everything (non-Babi) that you have written and you must argue using the Bayan.’ (Unit 6: Chap. 6).

‘Do not make more than 95 doors for the Point’s (the Bab’s) house!’ (Unit 6: Chap. 13).

‘Whoever forces anyone in a journey - even one step - or enters someone’s house before permission is given, or forces him out of his house without his permission, or unlawfully summons him from his home, then his wife will be illegal for him for 19 months!’ (Unit 6: Chap. 16).

‘Do not wear clothes that will frighten children!’ (Unit 7: Chap. 6).

‘It is incumbent upon all souls to leave from himself a soul (meaning to have children) and you must bring them close to each other (i.e. make them marry) after they have turned eleven and whoever can marry but doesn’t, then his (good) deeds will be annihilated!’ (Unit 8: Chap. 15).

‘You must not possess, buy, sell, or use medicine.’ (Unit 9: Chap. 8).

‘You must accept as guests 19 people every 19 days!’ (Unit 9: Chap. 17).

Do not drink donkey milk! And do not load it and other animals with what they cannot bear. This is what God has made incumbent upon you so that you may become pious!’ (Unit 10: Chap. 15).

‘Do not break eggs before they are cooked, for this is the food of the Primal Point (the Bab) and his followers in the Day of Resurrection (Qiyama) so that you may be grateful.’ (Unit 10: Chap. 15).

‘Do not ride cows and do not put loads on them if you (truly) believe in God and His signs!’ (Unit 10: Chap. 15).

‘You have been prohibited in the Bayan from having more than nineteen books. If you do so, you will be fined 19 mithqals (3.6 gms of gold).’ (Unit 11: Chap. 7).

Have a nice day, and very best regards.

Paul


Baha'u'llah did abrogate much of the Bayan.

Loving regards,
Becky
 
Old 03-31-2016, 12:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
does that mean that the "day of judgment" talked about by Muslims is only those very brief years from declaration of The Bab until the declaration of Bahaullah???? but it is said that the world must be filled with justice in the Day of Judgment while this did not happen during the time between Bab and Bahaullah. also we cannot say that this will happen in the dispensation of Bahaullah because then what about dispensation of the Bab? that dispensation is the day of judgment which Muslims are awaiting!
Dear Maeramr - To me the Day of Judgement is mostly a Spiritual Outpouring.

We will all have to continue to discuss this and see what spark of Truth we find as there is no Specific thing I have seen in the Writings except to what I have already mentioned. I have read so little of the amount of writings Baha'u'llah has produced

To look for results in the Material World is mostly found in the rejection of the message and not immediately in the acceptance of the message.

From the Declaration of the Bab the Old World order was Finished, cut off, done for! The new World immediately sprung forth, or as it says in the writings the remaining 25 letters of the 27 letters of knowledge was released.

All that the Muslims were waiting for was released and available. In the First verse Niblo posted above I see the the acceptance by the babis and I then see the rejection by some of these of Baha'u'llah and some who will go on to beleive “How could you reject your faith after believing? Taste the torment for doing so,” but those with brightened faces will be in Allāh’s grace, there to remain"

In that first passage I see it all unfolded in the Revelation of the Bab.

I think what is important is to to look at History, no Day of Judgement is accepted by an Outpouring of all the signs to Humanity, the Judgement Day signs are by the Majority clouded in Spiritual Meaning for us to unravel.

That is how God tests our hearts for sincerity and our use of free will.

There is something about the Twin trumpet Blasts in the Koran or Haddith, are you aware of those passages?

I am very happy to discuss this as as we do we all learn more about the Holy Koran and of Islam.

Regards Tony
 
Old 03-31-2016, 12:45 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by becky View Post
Baha'u'llah did abrogate much of the Bayan.

Loving regards,
Becky
I have come across a few explanations about these Laws one was on a forum;

Babi law.... - Baha'i Library Forum

Shoghi Effendi's secretary wrote on his behalf:

...The severe laws and injunctions revealed by the Báb can be properly appreciated and understood only when interpreted in the light of His own statements regarding the nature, purpose and character of His own Dispensation. As these statements clearly reveal, the Bábí Dispensation was essentially in the nature of a religious and indeed social revolution, and its duration had therefore to be short, but full of tragic events, of sweeping and drastic reforms. These drastic measures enforced by the Báb and His followers were taken with the view of undermining the very foundations of Shí'ah orthodoxy, and thus paving the way for the coming of Bahá'u'lláh. To assert the independence of the new Dispensation, and to prepare also the ground for the approaching Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh the Báb had therefore to reveal very severe laws, even though most of them, were never enforced. But the mere fact that He revealed them was in itself a proof of the independent character of His Dispensation and was sufficient to create such widespread agitation, and excite such opposition on the part of the clergy that led them to cause His eventual martyrdom.
(from a letter dated February 17, 1939 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, quoted on p 214 of the Most Holy Book)

Regards Tony
 
Old 03-31-2016, 12:46 PM   #13
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I found a document that discusses the Day of Judgement and the Bahai interpretations of it. See section IV.

Some Notes on Bahá'í Proofs Based on the Qur'an
 
Old 03-31-2016, 02:42 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hello Aidan.

The Bayan has some very interesting ‘Laws’.

From the Persian Bayan:

‘It is unlawful to teach books other than the Bayan unless there be therein something relating to Scholastic Philosophy (Ilm-i- Kalam), but Logic, Principles, and Jurisprudence, Philosophy, and dead languages, and the like, are forbidden, as also what has been written on (Arabic) Grammar and Syntax: unless anyone should desire to learn so much of the latter as may suffice him to read the Bayan, though there are so many of the writings of the Point in Persian that this is unnecessary for him.’ (Wahid IV, Chapter 10).

‘Concerning the command to take the possessions of those who do not believe in the Bayan, and the command to restore it, if they enter the Faith, except in those countries wherein its seizure is impossible. In the day of the Manifestation of the Apostle of God (Muhammad), the soul of naught that breathed was its own; how then that which is subsidiary to life? Unless it entered his religion; whereupon that which God hath bestowed on it became lawful to it. So also in the Manifestation of Him whom God shall manifest, no soul is lawful to its possessor unless it believe in Him, and all shall be taken from all, except that which enter under the shadow of His Religion. This command is to powerful Kings in the Faith, not to all. And in countries wherein it would become the cause of sadness or loss to anyone, God hath not ordered it to be made manifest; as, for instance, in the case of merchants in the countries of the Franks; such must keep their accounts with the utmost diligence, lest disgrace befall them.’ (Wahid V, Chapter 5).

‘The command to destroy all books except such as have been or shall be composed in this religion. So, though there had been many heavenly books from the time of Adam till the time of the Qur’an, all were removed and those who continued to believe in them were pronounced untrue. If it be so with divine books, how shall it be with books of creatures which beside those books are as a reflection in a mirror compared to the Sun?’ (Wahid VI, Chapter 6).

‘God has made it incumbent on every King who is raised up in the Religion of the Bayan to allow no one in his land who believes not this religion, and the same is incumbent on all men, except in the case of merchants who trade in what is advantageous to men, like the Letters of the Gospel. In the Manifestation of Him whom God shall manifest, the same order holds good of those who do not believe in him. This is that the Tree of Truth may not witness in that land wherein he appears any but believers in him, and that in Paradise, there may be no persons of Hell-Fire. The permission to merchants is only given to those who trade on a large scale, and no unbelievers who are in an inglorious condition are to be allowed in the country at all.’ (Wahid VII, Chapter 16).

‘Concerning the renewal of all books after 202 years have passed over them; and the destruction of what was written before, or its bestowal on someone. God wishes all things to become new in this Manifestation; therefore every 202 years everyone must renew his books, either cast them into fresh water, or give them to some one. This is that no letter may become capable of causing aversion, for 70,000 angels watch over every letter, and at the moment of its destruction they preserve it. These angels are pleased when they see anything well written; the Bayan must always be written most carefully.’ (Wahid VII, Chapter 1).

‘It is incumbent on everyone to leave to his heirs 19 sheets of fine paper and 19 rings whereon are engraved some of the Names of God; and that none shall inherit from the dead but his father, and his mother, and his wife and his sister, and his brother, and he who has taught him.’ (Wahid VIII, Chapter 2).

‘Everyone must read 700 of the verses of the Bayan, night and day. And if he be not able, let him mention God 700 times by saying ’Allahu Azhar’ (God is most manifest).’ (Wahid VIII, Chapter 14).

From the Arabic Bayan:

‘You must destroy everything (non-Babi) that you have written and you must argue using the Bayan.’ (Unit 6: Chap. 6).

‘Do not make more than 95 doors for the Point’s (the Bab’s) house!’ (Unit 6: Chap. 13).

‘Whoever forces anyone in a journey - even one step - or enters someone’s house before permission is given, or forces him out of his house without his permission, or unlawfully summons him from his home, then his wife will be illegal for him for 19 months!’ (Unit 6: Chap. 16).

‘Do not wear clothes that will frighten children!’ (Unit 7: Chap. 6).

‘It is incumbent upon all souls to leave from himself a soul (meaning to have children) and you must bring them close to each other (i.e. make them marry) after they have turned eleven and whoever can marry but doesn’t, then his (good) deeds will be annihilated!’ (Unit 8: Chap. 15).

‘You must not possess, buy, sell, or use medicine.’ (Unit 9: Chap. 8).

‘You must accept as guests 19 people every 19 days!’ (Unit 9: Chap. 17).

Do not drink donkey milk! And do not load it and other animals with what they cannot bear. This is what God has made incumbent upon you so that you may become pious!’ (Unit 10: Chap. 15).

‘Do not break eggs before they are cooked, for this is the food of the Primal Point (the Bab) and his followers in the Day of Resurrection (Qiyama) so that you may be grateful.’ (Unit 10: Chap. 15).

‘Do not ride cows and do not put loads on them if you (truly) believe in God and His signs!’ (Unit 10: Chap. 15).

‘You have been prohibited in the Bayan from having more than nineteen books. If you do so, you will be fined 19 mithqals (3.6 gms of gold).’ (Unit 11: Chap. 7).

Have a nice day, and very best regards.

Paul
Indeed, however the teaching of the Bayan has been supplanted by the teaching of Baha'u'llah
 
Old 03-31-2016, 06:55 PM   #15
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Hello Aidan.

The Bayan has some very interesting ‘Laws’.
Paul
‘Do not ride cows...

I could live up to that. Not one of my frequent habits.

gnat
 
Old 04-01-2016, 07:04 AM   #16
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The Bab's manifestation fascinates me. His prayers are powerful and compact in many cases. I find in my meditations, his memorial atop the mountain is my visual focus. I would like to know more of him thatn I do, but there are very real questions about his religion, that I have.

If it had went on longer, after his death, would it continued to have been a more violent movement? (not counting the extremely sparse Babi's that remain, here and there) Obviously there is no way to know, it ended, or at least changed and led the way for Baha'u'llah's era, and yet we know in the case of other Manifestations, that their religions continued on, and the ones that we are aware of, anyway, thrive. But they did not occur just years before the next one, in the same geographical era at that.

So we can't have the same expectations, from that point of view. One gets the sense that it was a work in progress that never finished. Without being disrespectful, was it somehow set up to be flawed by design? (for instance, the sometimes bizarre rules in the Bayan) Was it a shock to the system before the greater teachings arrived, and if so, why was it important, since the Babi movement existed for only a little while in a limited geographical area? Or were the writings themselves corrupted by opposers soon after?

Maybe there are simply more documents that we don't have access too. The Bab was a supernaturally prolific writer, and as with too many sacred writings, they are not always accessible.
 
Old 04-01-2016, 08:35 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
does that mean that the "day of judgment" talked about by Muslims is only those very brief years from declaration of The Bab until the declaration of Bahaullah???? but it is said that the world must be filled with justice in the Day of Judgment while this did not happen during the time between Bab and Bahaullah. also we cannot say that this will happen in the dispensation of Bahaullah because then what about dispensation of the Bab? that dispensation is the day of judgment which Muslims are awaiting!
The Muslim Prophecies does not explicitly says "there are two Day of Judgement to come".

But if we read them with a discerning eye, and examine them, it becomes clear, it talks about Two Day of Judgement.
In the same way, the Muslim Prophecies seems to talk about one Qaim or Mahdi. But if we read the statements of the Prophet and Holy Imams, with a discerning eye, we notice they talked about Two Qaim, who appear after each other.

From my understanding and extensive research, the reason that they did not explicitly say, there are two Judgement Days and Two Qaim, has only one reason. That is to test the muslims. It is indeed a difficault test. It serves the same purpose of designation 'Seal of Prophets'. Only if a person becomes completely detached, then can see it. Most people rely on what their schollars had told them for centuries. This is the same mistake that previous people did. Baha'u'llah taught that one of The main reasons, people failed to recognize Messengers, has been, their trust and imitation from their schollars. Christians faild to recognize Muhammad, becuase they followed whatever their scholars told them. The Muslims were told how schollars mislead people of the Book in Quran and Hadithes. So, God also tested them in this Day. Notice that according to many Muslim Hadithes, the majority of Muslims are in 'Hell' and 'Fire', when the Day comes. The Muslims themselves are aware of these Hadithes...
One needs to ponder, if, believeing in Allah, and wearing Hijab, takes people to Heaven, then the majority of Muslims, believe in Oneness of Allah, and do wear Hijab. Then why is it that according to many Hadithes, the majority of Muslims are in Hell and Fire?
I can just quote Hadith after Hadith, that the Muslims will be in Hell, and become mislead just the way Jews and Christians did. I can bring Hadith and after Hadith, that the Muslims fail to recognize Qaim or Mahdi, and will be a misguided people. Notice, these Hadithes are recorded in Muslim Sources, both Shia and Sunni. It is not like they are invented by Anti-muslims. I mean, the list of such Hadithes can go on and on and on....

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 04-01-2016 at 08:46 AM.
 
Old 04-01-2016, 09:37 AM   #18
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To claim that the Almighty has ‘relieved (mankind) of the ordinance laid down in the Bayan concerning the destruction of books’ is to claim that He gave such a command in the first place; that He then changed His mind; and that He then issued a new commandment overturning His first. In my opinion - three ridiculous notions in one.

Have a nice weekend, and very best regards.

Paul.
Dear Paul,

Very, very interesting indeed. I wonder if I have ever come across a more fascinating and mind-boggling question. I feel that my own knowledge is not sufficient. I know, however, where to find the expertise needed. Let's see what I can dig up.

Best,

from

gnat
 
Old 04-01-2016, 09:45 AM   #19
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Dear Paul,

Very, very interesting indeed. I wonder if I have ever come across a more fascinating and mind-boggling question. I feel that my own knowledge is not sufficient. I know, however, where to find the expertise needed. Let's see what I can dig up.

Best,

from

gnat
What is strange to me, is that, how can Muslims accept Quran then?
Consider, according to Quran God asked muslims to turn toward the Mosque as Qiblah, but later He changed the Qiblah to Kabba.
God had told Abraham to sacrifice His son, then He changed and said sacrifice the Animal.
God had made a firm covenant with Jews to keep the Sabbath Law, but in Islam there is no such Law anymore if a Jew becomes Muslim...the list can go on and on.
 
Old 04-01-2016, 10:45 AM   #20
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Quote:
InvestigateTruth
very interesting point of view... your idea made me go and take a look at Shia Hadiths about Qaim and the day of judgment. interestingly I found out that in the Muslim beliefs, the Day of Judgment is not at the same time with uprising of Qaim. it is believed that Qaim will arise BEFORE the day of judgment and He will rule for some brief years. only THEN, after He is martyred, the day of Judgment will start. all the signs mentioned in Quran are therefore related to the era after martyrdom of Qaim.

and
dear friend
Quote:
Niblo
you have brought up the matter of the Bab's order about destroying books except for Bayan and some other books. yet, you seem not to be aware of the fact that Bab himself in Persian Bayan has clarified his meaning and has talked about the kinds of books which must be vanished. he has said that he wants the books of Muslim theologians who have argued about trivial, minute and unimportant matters in their books and so have triggered debates for nothing. ... I with my incomplete knowledge, think that to order to destroy books which are the cause of blindness among people is so wise if there is going to be a reformation in ideas and thoughts and beliefs.
 
Old 04-01-2016, 11:20 AM   #21
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I see the Bayan as a necessary balance to bring Gods Laws back into Focus.

Both the Laws of the Jews, the Sunni and Shia and the Western World and the world in general have gone so ridiculously unbalanced, that the Bayan put that into perspecrive. Somewhere in the world the Bayan laws would be applicable to some part of humanity. That one person in one culture does not see any sense in the law just means they do not know all cultures on this planet, whereas the Bab did!

Be interesting one day when the laws are viewed in relation to all cultures and what they had implemented in life. Think we will find.....are that was applicable to !!!!

Baha'u'llah's laws then Balanced these laws for the entire Human Race and of all Religions. To me that is an amazing thing for this age. The balance has been set.

To me The key is we now have to think how all this attributes to the Unity of the entire humane race. The gift is the Oneness of God.

Regards Tony.
 
Old 04-01-2016, 12:23 PM   #22
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very interesting point of view... your idea made me go and take a look at Shia Hadiths about Qaim and the day of judgment. interestingly I found out that in the Muslim beliefs, the Day of Judgment is not at the same time with uprising of Qaim. it is believed that Qaim will arise BEFORE the day of judgment and He will rule for some brief years. only THEN, after He is martyred, the day of Judgment will start. all the signs mentioned in Quran are therefore related to the era after martyrdom of Qaim.

.
Indeed, among the Shia Traditions, exist Hadithes that explicitly says, Judgement Day is the Day of Rising Qaim, and I found them in Bihar-alanwar.
I don't mean just an allusion, but explicitly Imam Sadiq said that in Hadithes.
 
Old 04-03-2016, 05:37 AM   #23
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Books are veils cast between ourselves and reality. Only a handful of books are necessary.

Peace.
 
Old 04-03-2016, 05:47 AM   #24
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When St Thomas Aquinas was a novice he was told that a pig was flying outside his dormitory window. Thomas rushed off to see for himself. He was mocked by the other novices, and called a fool. He replied that he would rather be thought a fool than believe that any Dominican would tell a lie! I would rather be considered a dumb - obdurate - Muslim fool than believe that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) could decree such ‘laws’.

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Paul.
Dear Paul,

I definitely won't come up with any offhand replies to what you're saying, because there is so much sincerity and good sense to what you say. I have a vague idea of what this is all about, but remain silent right now. You're a true seeker - that's for sure.

gnat
 
Old 04-03-2016, 06:40 AM   #25
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Hello Maryam.

Then we must ask ourselves why Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) did not command -in the first place - that: ‘The books of Muslim theologians who have argued about trivial, minute and unimportant matters in their books and so have triggered debates for nothing - and which are the cause of blindness among people - shall be destroyed.’

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Paul.
Dear Paul,

The same can be said about distorting the Bible by Christian and Jewish Religious leaders. This distortion of Bible had started long before revelation of Quran. Then why Allah did not tell people about distortion any sooner than Revelation of Quran?


Methink, Allah did warn Muslims that a time comes, when true Islam is disappeared. The Mosques will be full of people by this Name (muslim) but are the most far from it....
I am sure you are aware of such Hadithes.


But Revelations of God is like the cycle of Day and Night. The Night appears gradually after Day, and the Light of Sun appears gradually after the Darkness of Night.
But when there is Night, there are still Stars with Light.
So, between Muhammad and the Bab, which was 'Night', there appeared many stars. The Bab appeared, when it was time for Morning.

But why, Allah did not order distroying harmful books before by burning?
It all depends on requirements. If Allah had thought it was required earlier, He would surely have done it. You are assuming the Bab's Law were given from Himself. It wasn't His to say what He likes, but He conveyed the Message Allah asked Him.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 04-03-2016 at 06:42 AM.
 
Old 04-03-2016, 08:16 AM   #26
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Hi Gnat.

Many thanks. I've wanted to talk about this matter for quite some time, but it's sensitive.

Paul.
I understand that. Sometimes, I know how to read between the lines, and I sense the sincerity of your way of presenting these facts.

My personal belief is that the Báb's revelation never was intended to be all-encompassing, but rather to serve as a sifting instrument, as an enormous test to prepare the ground for the next revelation. Bahá'u'lláh specifically ordains in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas the the law on the destruction of books has been abrogated.

gnat
 
Old 04-03-2016, 10:03 AM   #27
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Hello Maryam.

Then we must ask ourselves why Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) did not command -in the first place - that: ‘The books of Muslim theologians who have argued about trivial, minute and unimportant matters in their books and so have triggered debates for nothing - and which are the cause of blindness among people - shall be destroyed.’

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Paul.
to me, the answer is clear. the reason for that is that such books are "harmful". they blind the truth-seeing eyes and make people go for unimportant matters rather than for the core of the truth. for example see how Mullas like to talk about Shia, Sunni matters. how Shia and sunni people (at least in the east) fight with each other to show that their own idea is correct and yet they have forgotten about the core teaching of religions which is love for humanity.
 
Old 04-03-2016, 11:26 AM   #28
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Hi Gnat.

Many thanks. I've wanted to talk about this matter for quite some time, but it's sensitive.

Perception is reality; and my perception is my reality...my truth, if you like. You will notice that I've made no attempt to justify my point of view by referencing any scholar, or school of thought; or by quoting from the Qur'an. I'm not out to persuade, merely to express part of a drawn out thought process that has taken me from a certain place to a new place...from Christianity to Islam.

Only the Beloved knows the truth of things...the heart of it all. The rest of us can but hope that we are right more often than wrong. And I've been wrong too many times to claim infallibility!

Take care.

Paul.
Paul you are correct in what you say. It is confirmed in science with two fascinating studies.

One is "Frame of Reference" and the other "Inattentional Blindness".

There is a great 3 part Talk on this by Tom Price call "Creating a New Mind". They are an hour each and available on the internet.

I found them rewarding to consider.

Regards Tony.
 
Old 04-03-2016, 01:40 PM   #29
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Hi everyone

The Bayan Scripture is quite tough to understand, and IMHO, there's but Baha'u'llah who has been able to grasp its nature so far.

According to me, it's not exactly a Text. It's a sacred space, a talisman (the Bayan has been descended in the form of 19 haykal, as stated in the 1st wahid of the Arabic Bayan), and this space is subjected to evolution.

The laws of the Bayan define a reign of perfection. In the city of Bayan, every atom of matter is at the right place. As for the law of the egg, it is meant to express by outward means an inner process of creation.

It is also possible that in the bequeathing of the paper sheets, our comprehension of the verse has to take into account the very letters of the persian words for "paper sheets", which combined together, may have a meaning of their own, as in a code that needs to be deciphered.

The Bayan is a very interesting book, but I'm afraid none of us has tools to read it.

Quote:
But, of course, he didn’t. Bahá'u'lláh came along; and he was a much better marketing manager
We have to be fair. Baha'u'llah was not a mere marketing manager. He was capable of prophecy. And the Bab was also created enwrapped in prophetic symbols. I am confident that both were sent by God to fulfill something. I don't consider the Bab to a prophet, nor the promised Mahdi, but I have to admit that both him and Baha'u'llah had special prophetic abilities.
Baha'u'llah clearly proved that he saw into our future, so it's not fair to just make of him a crook. But his status is unclear nonetheless.

Peace.
 
Old 04-03-2016, 03:27 PM   #30
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Hi everyone

The Bayan Scripture is quite tough to understand, and IMHO, there's but Baha'u'llah who has been able to grasp its nature so far.

According to me, it's not exactly a Text. It's a sacred space, a talisman (the Bayan has been descended in the form of 19 haykal, as stated in the 1st wahid of the Arabic Bayan), and this space is subjected to evolution.

The laws of the Bayan define a reign of perfection. In the city of Bayan, every atom of matter is at the right place. As for the law of the egg, it is meant to express by outward means an inner process of creation.

It is also possible that in the bequeathing of the paper sheets, our comprehension of the verse has to take into account the very letters of the persian words for "paper sheets", which combined together, may have a meaning of their own, as in a code that needs to be deciphered.

The Bayan is a very interesting book, but I'm afraid none of us has tools to read it.



We have to be fair. Baha'u'llah was not a mere marketing manager. He was capable of prophecy. And the Bab was also created enwrapped in prophetic symbols. I am confident that both were sent by God to fulfill something. I don't consider the Bab to a prophet, nor the promised Mahdi, but I have to admit that both him and Baha'u'llah had special prophetic abilities.
Baha'u'llah clearly proved that he saw into our future, so it's not fair to just make of him a crook. But his status is unclear nonetheless.

Peace.
Precisely, The Bab is the Mahdi, the Qaim, and Baha'u'llah is the promised one of All Ages. And I don't mean to be fanatical. To be Fair, They fuflilled all the Signs that was Prophecied by every previous Prophet. Consider, for example, according to Jewish Text, Christian Bible and Islamic Prophecies in Quran and Hadith, the year promised One was to appear was 1260 A.H.
 
Old 04-03-2016, 03:41 PM   #31
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Hi Gnat.

Many thanks. I've wanted to talk about this matter for quite some time, but it's sensitive.

Perception is reality; and my perception is my reality...my truth, if you like. You will notice that I've made no attempt to justify my point of view by referencing any scholar, or school of thought; or by quoting from the Qur'an. I'm not out to persuade, merely to express part of a drawn out thought process that has taken me from a certain place to a new place...from Christianity to Islam.

Only the Beloved knows the truth of things...the heart of it all. The rest of us can but hope that we are right more often than wrong. And I've been wrong too many times to claim infallibility!

Take care.

Paul.
Dear Paul,

When speaking about knowing God, There are only Two kinds of knowledge:

1. The True knowledge, which its Source is, the Revelation that came from Beloved to us, through His Prophets.
2. The knowledge that has come from vain imaginations and idle fancies, which its source is 'self'.
Specially, when speaking about theology, and Faith of God, the Beloved,..etc, I believe, as Baha'u'llah taught, we should refer to the True Source of Knowledge
Which is the Word of God revealed by His Messengers. No person has any direct access to the knowledge of God, but, we can only know about God and His Faith, by learning from what, the Beloved has revealed for us. And Surely He revealed whatever is needed to teach us the Truth. How can the Beloved leave us without a Perfect and Clear guidence?
It is for this reason, I always, refer to sayings of the Prophets and Holy Scriptures as a 'Standard' to talk about God. Otherwise, if I use my own imagination, that god, is the product of my own imagination, and not the Beloved, who, spoke to us, through His Prophets.

Have a good Day.
 
Old 04-03-2016, 03:43 PM   #32
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Hi IT

You're not being fanatical, but a believer.
As far as I'm concerned, the Bab seems to have been the Qaim, but he lacks the universality of Mahdi-hood. For now, he is just a shadow. Even the Baha'is do not know him. He lacks magnitude.
To me, he was the Gate.

Quote:
To be Fair, They fuflilled all the Signs
They fulfilled some prophecies, but not all of them.

And I am aware that some of these prophecies left unfulfilled are being fulfilled in our era, as I once mentionned, and denying these signs are like being a negator. So the more that Baha'u'llah announced an Hour to come very soon, when humanity will shake in every of its limbs.

My investigation so far has led me to believe that :
_the Bab was sent by God with a Mission
_that he fulfilled some prophecies and had prophetic abilities
_that it's also the case for the Baha'u'llah
_but that the Mahdi and the Day of Judgement (the Great Gathering) have yet to come.

The Dajjalic spirit for instance, is still lurking around and messing with our world. Your computer screen is a one-eyed creature whose sight cover all of the world.

You also have to explain me how the Bab did fill the Earth with justice and equity.

It's like a machine with some gears lacking. I can see that.

Peace.
 
Old 04-03-2016, 04:36 PM   #33
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Hi IT

You're not being fanatical, but a believer.
As far as I'm concerned, the Bab seems to have been the Qaim, but he lacks the universality of Mahdi-hood. For now, he is just a shadow. Even the Baha'is do not know him. He lacks magnitude.
To me, he was the Gate.
I am not sure what you mean by 'He lacks the universality of Mahdi-hood'?

But, when we speak of Prophecies and Fullfilment, we need to refer to the Hadithes!
Because the Prophecies did not come from imagination of people, but they came from God, and were revealed by the Prophets and appointed Imams.
Now, did not, the Prophet and Imams in Islam, repeatedly said, when Mahdi, or Qaim comes, the majority of people deny and reject Him? Then, how is it, that, when this is fulfilled, we should expect, universal acceptance of Mahdi? No, this is the imaginations of people that Qaim will be universally accepted in His life. Those who Prophecied about Qaim, did not say, such a thing.


Quote:
They fulfilled some prophecies, but not all of them.
No, they fulfilled everything that was to be fulfilled! Whatever that was prophecied. The reason we think, they were not fulfilled, is, because of general misinterpretations regarding these Prophecies.

Quote:
And I am aware that some of these prophecies left unfulfilled are being fulfilled in our era, as I once mentionned, and denying these signs are like being a negator. So the more that Baha'u'llah announced an Hour to come very soon, when humanity will shake in every of its limbs.
Baha'u'llah said, the Judgement Day has come.
The Hour, that Baha'u'llah spoke, is not Judgement Day. He never said, He was talking about Judgement Day in the verse, you are refering to.

Quote:
My investigation so far has led me to believe that :
_the Bab was sent by God with a Mission
_that he fulfilled some prophecies and had prophetic abilities
_that it's also the case for the Baha'u'llah
_but that the Mahdi and the Day of Judgement (the Great Gathering) have yet to come.

The Dajjalic spirit for instance, is still lurking around and messing with our world. Your computer screen is a one-eyed creature whose sight cover all of the world.

You also have to explain me how the Bab did fill the Earth with justice and equity.

It's like a machine with some gears lacking. I can see that.

Peace.
See, those who prophecied about Qaim, did not say, Mahdi, physically conquares the World in His life-time. They have said, the Qaim fills the earth with the Knowledge that is true Justice! Notice this is fulfilled!
If, people are not willing to accept, this is their own short-coming. God has done His part and has fulfilled His Promise.
If we read the Hadithes with a discerning eye, and read many of them, we see, the Prophets meant to say, the Qaim reveals a New set of teachings and Laws, that everyone is judged by these Laws and no one will be wronged. This is the justice they Spoke of. Moreover, Qaim is not only the Bab. Baha'u'llah is Qaim.

Moreover, those who prophecied about Qaim, also spoke of Beda. They said, God may pospone somethings.

But, to recognize Qaim, there are certain signs. These signs perfectly match with the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 04-03-2016 at 04:41 PM.
 
Old 04-03-2016, 06:35 PM   #34
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Hi, maryamr.

It is my personal understanding that the Day of Judgment is the same as the Day of Resurrection. If this is true, then I think the quotes below answer your question.

The Báb says the Day of Resurrection applies to any time period between the start of the mission of a Manifestation and that same Manifestation's ascension:

Quote:
In the estimation of God and according to the usage of such as are initiated into divine mysteries, what is meant by the Day of Resurrection is this, that from the time of the appearance of Him Who is the Tree of divine Reality, at whatever period and under whatever name, until the moment of His disappearance, is the Day of Resurrection. For example, from the inception of the mission of Jesus—may peace be upon Him—till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Moses.
Selections from the Writings of the Báb | Bahá
And Bahá'u'lláh associates the appearance of the Qá'im with the Day of Resurrection:

Quote:
Have they not heard the well-known tradition: “When the Qá’im riseth, that day is the Day of Resurrection”? In like manner, the Imáms, those unquenchable lights of divine guidance, have interpreted the verse: “What can such expect but that God should come down to them overshadowed with clouds,”—a sign which they have unquestionably regarded as one of the features of the Day of Resurrection—as referring to the Qá’im and His manifestation.
The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá
I would say that the Báb's "own time" was in fact the Day of Judgment, but so was the time of Bahá'u'lláh, which was more important to discuss, so He talked about the latter more.
 
Old 04-04-2016, 01:32 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Precisely, The Bab is the Mahdi, the Qaim, and Baha'u'llah is the promised one of All Ages....
but Mahdi (Qaim) is the same person as promised one of all ages! am I not right?
 
Old 04-04-2016, 01:33 AM   #36
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Hi, maryamr.

It is my personal understanding that the Day of Judgment is the same as the Day of Resurrection. If this is true, then I think the quotes below answer your question.

The Báb says the Day of Resurrection applies to any time period between the start of the mission of a Manifestation and that same Manifestation's ascension:



And Bahá'u'lláh associates the appearance of the Qá'im with the Day of Resurrection:



I would say that the Báb's "own time" was in fact the Day of Judgment, but so was the time of Bahá'u'lláh, which was more important to discuss, so He talked about the latter more.

yes, Clex. that is a good answer, worth thinking thank you
 
Old 04-04-2016, 01:42 AM   #37
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Investigatethetruth;

what you said before has perplexed me a little. you said "See, those who prophecied about Qaim, did not say, Mahdi, physically conquares the World in His life-time. They have said, the Qaim fills the earth with the Knowledge that is true Justice! Notice this is fulfilled!"

here, I am not going to talk about physically conquering the world. but in almost all Hadiths it is said that AT THE END of time of Qaim (which according to Baha'is, must be when the Bab is martyred and then the declaration of Bahaullah), the world is filled with justice. so at the end of dispensation of Bab, we had to witness it. but we did not.
I would like to know your explanation on the matter.
 
Old 04-04-2016, 02:21 AM   #38
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@IT :

Quote:
No, they fulfilled everything that was to be fulfilled! Whatever that was prophecied.
Ahahaha !

Now, I can accept that some prophecies were fulfilled in a symbolic sense. But the problem is that some of the signs, who weren't fulfilled back then, are being now.

Quran 99:1-4

When the earth is shaken to her (utmost) convulsion, And the earth throws up her burdens (from within), And man cries (distressed): 'What is the matter with her?'- On that Day will she declare her tidings:

At which time did men say : "What's the matter with the Earth ?" Is it in 1844, or in 2016 ?

----> massive extinction of species (this year, for instance, 70% of the Saïgas died out of a disease)
----> climatic anomalies (Have I to give examples ?)
----> sea level rising
----> fracking, that makes the Earth shake as if it was discharging its burden

A map establishing the connection between fracking and earthquakes in the US :



Quran 22:2

"The Day ye shall see it, every mother giving suck shall forget her suckling-babe, and every pregnant female shall drop her load (unformed): thou shalt see mankind as in a drunken riot, yet not drunk: but dreadful will be the Wrath of Allah."

Now that looks a bit like our era, when people look drunk when they're not (just watch TV), and when there are high abortion rates.

That's what I'm talking about, but there's a lot more examples.

Quote:
Baha'u'llah is the promised one of All Ages....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Baha'u'llah says not that he is the Promised one of all ages. More specifically, he says that His Revelation has been announced in all of the Scriptures, which is an important nuance.

Peace.
 
Old 04-04-2016, 05:56 AM   #39
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"And when our verses are recited to them they say, ‘This is not but a man who wishes to mislead us from the worship of our fathers' or they say 'this is nothing but inventions and lies.'

And the disbelievers reject the truth when it has come to them, saying ‘This is nothing but sorcery and deceit.’ Although we had not given them a prior scripture to study nor sent them a warner before.

And those before them also denied, and they had not attained even a tenth of what We had to bestow yet alas they denied My messengers, and were reproached."


(Qur'an 34:43-45)
 
Old 04-04-2016, 06:06 AM   #40
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Hello IT.

My focus is on the Bayan and Kitáb-i-Aqdas. As far as I’m concerned these books must stand - or fall - according to their own merit.

Assuming - for the sake of discussion - that they truly are Revelations from Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) then they ought to be considered as self-sufficient and complete; having no need of support from earlier Books; or from the aHadith.

If I were a Baha’i, and if I wished to discuss with another Baha’i the Day of Judgement, for example, I would do so using only the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, and any relevant works produced by Bahá'u'lláh. Why would I need to refer to the Bible, or to the Qur’an?

It seems to me that Clex19 has the right approach (see Post 41).

By the way (reference Post 38): Like everyone else, my knowledge of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) comes from Revelation; from a study of His books; and from experiences shared with those who derived their knowledge from the same sources.

Have a nice day.

Paul
Dear Paul,

If we look at any previous Holy. Books, we see they generally contain Two Types of teachings or Laws.

One type is Sharia. The other Type of teachings are not Sharia, but Spiritual Teachings.

The Spiritual teachings are always reminded by Allah, in the next Revelation.
So, for this reason, you see many spiritual teachings of old testament, also are included in New Testament, and many Spiritual teachings in New Testament are also included in Quran as a reminder.
Allah also included and reminded such teachings in Baha'I Revelation. That does not mean, Prophets copied from each other! No! Allah, reminds the same Message, again and again. This is why you see, a lot of references to Quran and Bible, in Baha'I Revelation. This is because these Spiritual teachings are the Foundation of Faith of God, and God never. Changes them.

But, as regards to Sharia Laws, Allah, changes them according to the exigencies of Time. This is because, Allah reveals Sharia, according to the requirements of the Period. Remember what Allah had revealed in Quran 13:38-39! For every period, there is a Book. God abrogates or confirms Laws, and with Him is the Source of Revelation. Now, I hope you don't say, why I give a reference to Quran. This verse, is one the foundation of the faith of God and is reminded again in every Revelation. In fact in Baha'I View, All Books, are part of the Mother Book. Allah, reveals the related part of the Mother Book in every period. This is the reason, the Laws of the Bab were different than Quran, and the Laws of Baha'I Faith are different than Bayan. The Bayan was revealed for its own 'Period'. Quran for its own Period, and Aqdas for its Own Period.
 
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