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Old 05-05-2016, 04:26 PM   #1
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Knowledge of Manifestation of God

How much knowledge of the past and future did the Manifestations had, is the topic.

First Abdulbaha said in Some Answered Questions:

"We come to the explanation of the words of Bahá’u’lláh when He says: “O King! I was but a man
like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me,
and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is
Almighty and All-Knowing.”[72] This is the station of divine revelation. It is not a sensible, but an
intelligible reality. It is sanctified from and transcendent above past, present, and future. It is a
comparison and an analogy—a metaphor and not a literal truth. It is not the condition that is
commonly understood by the human mind when it is said that someone was asleep and then awoke,
but signifies a passage from one state to another. For example, sleeping is the state of repose, and
wakefulness is the state of motion. Sleeping is the state of silence, and wakefulness is the state of
utterance. Sleeping is the state of concealment, and wakefulness is that of manifestation.
For example, in Persian and Arabic it is said that the earth was asleep, spring came, and it awoke;
or that the earth was dead, spring came, and it found life again. These expressions are comparisons,
analogies, similes, and figurative interpretations in the realm of inner meaning.
Briefly, the Manifestations of God have ever been and will ever be luminous Realities, and no
change or alteration ever takes place in Their essence. At most, before Their revelation They are
still and silent, like one who is asleep, and after Their revelation They are eloquent and effulgent,
like one who is awake."


To me, Abdulbaha is confirming that there is no change in the knowledge of the Manifestations.
So, when Baha'u'llah says, God has given all the knowledge that has been, this did not just occour at the time of His Revelation, but the moment He appeared in this world from the womb of His mother, He had all the same knowledge.


Now, for example, even before Baha'u'llah was exciled to Akka, He knew, that He would be exciled to that city, as can be seen He quoted in Iqan regarding Akka.

The Bab also have said, He was aware of His own Truth when He was a child.

JEsus also, according to Quran, knew about His own return, when He was a baby child.



Now, here is the question about Moses:

Moses, according to holy books, killed a man.
Baha'u'llah explained in Iqan, the reason this happened was to test the people of His time.

Now, lets think about this for a little while.

Moses as a Manifestation of God, must have been aware of His own future, when He was a child, as there is no change in His knowledge. Therefore just before killing the man, He knew that He would kill him, for the purpose of testing the people.

Can we not say, Moses, therefore chose to kill the man to test others?
 
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Old 05-06-2016, 02:56 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post

Can we not say, Moses, therefore chose to kill the man to test others?
I'm not sure that we can use such a word as "choice" when talking about a Manifestation of God.

gnat
 
Old 05-06-2016, 08:40 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
I'm not sure that we can use such a word as "choice" when talking about a Manifestation of God.

gnat
Lets think about it this way.

It is God who takes life and takes us to Himself, and Moses was the Manifestation of that same God.


So, just 1 hour prior to killing the man by Moses, can we say, Moses was unaware that He was going to kill that man? If Moses was unaware of the event to happen by Himself, would that be compatible with Bahai theology?


For example, according to Bible, Jesus knew from beginning of His mission, He was going to be crucified.
But, He also prayed if the Father can let that cup pass from Him, even though He knew what was going to happen. Then Quran says, Allah took His life and took Him to Himself.

Now, lets remember, Baha'u'llah in Iqan said, Jesus crucified Himself! Then it becomes obvious, Allah was Jesus Himself, who caused Himself to be crucified.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 05-06-2016 at 08:46 AM.
 
Old 05-06-2016, 02:26 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Lets think about it this way.

It is God who takes life and takes us to Himself, and Moses was the Manifestation of that same God.


So, just 1 hour prior to killing the man by Moses, can we say, Moses was unaware that He was going to kill that man? If Moses was unaware of the event to happen by Himself, would that be compatible with Bahai theology?


For example, according to Bible, Jesus knew from beginning of His mission, He was going to be crucified.
But, He also prayed if the Father can let that cup pass from Him, even though He knew what was going to happen. Then Quran says, Allah took His life and took Him to Himself.

Now, lets remember, Baha'u'llah in Iqan said, Jesus crucified Himself! Then it becomes obvious, Allah was Jesus Himself, who caused Himself to be crucified.
This extract sheds light on the thought;

"These attributes of God are not, and have never been, vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others.”

This is the link in full - Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 46-49

Abdul'Baha wrote re this subject

Were men to meditate upon the lives of the Prophets of old, so easily would they come to know and understand the ways of these Prophets that they would cease to be veiled by such deeds and words as are contrary to their own worldly desires, and thus consume every intervening veil with the fire burning in the Bush of divine knowledge, and abide secure upon the throne of peace and certitude. For instance, consider Moses, son of ‘Imrán, one of the exalted Prophets and Author of a divinely-revealed Book. Whilst passing, one day, through the market, in His early days, ere His 54 ministry was proclaimed, He saw two men engaged in fighting. One of them asked the help of Moses against his opponent. Whereupon, Moses intervened and slew him. To this testifieth the record of the sacred Book. Should the details be cited, they will lengthen and interrupt the course of the argument. The report of this incident spread throughout the city, and Moses was full of fear, as is witnessed by the text of the Book. And when the warning: “O Moses! of a truth, the chiefs take counsel to slay Thee” 18 reached His ears, He went forth from the city, and sojourned in Midian in the service of Shoeb. While returning, Moses entered the holy vale, situate in the wilderness of Sinai, and there beheld the vision of the King of glory from the “Tree that belongeth neither to the East nor to the West.” 19 There He heard the soul-stirring Voice of the Spirit speaking from out of the kindled Fire, bidding Him to shed upon Pharaonic souls the light of divine guidance; so that, liberating them from the shadows of the valley of self and desire, He might enable them to attain the meads of heavenly delight, and delivering them, through the Salsabíl of renunciation, from the bewilderment of remoteness, cause them to enter 55 the peaceful city of the divine presence. When Moses came unto Pharaoh and delivered unto him, as bidden by God, the divine Message, Pharaoh spoke insultingly saying: “Art thou not he that committed murder, and became an infidel?” Thus recounted the Lord of majesty as having been said by Pharaoh unto Moses: “What a deed is that which Thou hast done! Thou art one of the ungrateful. He said: ‘I did it indeed, and I was one of those who erred. And I fled from you when I feared you, but My Lord hath given Me wisdom, and hath made Me one of His Apostles.’” 20
58
And now ponder in thy heart the commotion which God stirreth up. Reflect upon the strange and manifold trials with which He doth test His servants. Consider how He hath suddenly chosen from among His servants, and entrusted with the exalted mission of divine guidance Him Who was known as guilty of homicide, Who, Himself, had acknowledged His cruelty, and Who for well-nigh thirty years had, in the eyes of the world, been reared in the home of Pharaoh and been nourished at his table. Was not God, the omnipotent King, able to withhold the hand of Moses from murder, 56 so that manslaughter should not be attributed unto Him, causing bewilderment and aversion among the people? Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 41-80

Regards Tony
 
Old 05-06-2016, 03:10 PM   #5
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Hi tony, thanks for the quote.

There are many points in the quote which gets my attention. for example , where Bahaullah says:

" He said: ‘I did it indeed, and I was one of those who erred."


It is obvious, according to Bahai theology, Manifestations of God are infallible, from the moment they are born. So, literally, it cannot be said Moses erred.
 
Old 05-06-2016, 03:20 PM   #6
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Hi tony, thanks for the quote.

There are many points in the quote which gets my attention. for example , where Bahaullah says:

" He said: ‘I did it indeed, and I was one of those who erred."


It is obvious, according to Bahai theology, Manifestations of God are infallible, from the moment they are born. So, literally, it cannot be said Moses erred.
It is interesting. But I can not say I have an answer

God Doeth as He Willeth is my thought re these situations.

We are told if we get to know our own true selves we will find the answers we need. Personally I need a lot of time on this

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Old 05-06-2016, 03:36 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
It is interesting. But I can not say I have an answer

God Doeth as He Willeth is my thought re these situations.

We are told if we get to know our own true selves we will find the answers we need. Personally I need a lot of time on this

God Bless and Regards Tony
Yes, there are many things like these in writings.

Personally, at this point, I concluded for myself, that, Manifestations of God, know all things. They play a role, and from the moment they are born, they know what role they will play. As if a movie player, who already know what life He will play, from beginning to the end, and at every moment what would happen.

To me Moses knew from beginning, He was going to err and kill. But He was God (Manifestation), and had the Authority to do what He wills, and He shall not be asked for His actions. But His purpose was to kill so, He may test His people.

So, Murder was an error according to the Laws of God, but Manifestation has authority over all things. Like Muhammad, who erred by having more than 4 wives, but He Himself was the Law giver.
 
Old 05-06-2016, 03:55 PM   #8
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Yes, there are many things like these in writings.

Personally, at this point, I concluded for myself, that, Manifestations of God, know all things. They play a role, and from the moment they are born, they know what role they will play. As if a movie player, who already know what life He will play, from beginning to the end, and at every moment what would happen.

To me Moses knew from beginning, He was going to err and kill. But He was God (Manifestation), and had the Authority to do what He wills, and He shall not be asked for His actions. But His purpose was to kill so, He may test His people.

So, Murder was an error according to the Laws of God, but Manifestation has authority over all things. Like Muhammad, who erred by having more than 4 wives, but He Himself was the Law giver.
What I always find interesting is what diversity we have in our search for God. What is amazing to some, is of no interest to others. Then a subject can be raised and it sparks an interest for all to find out more.

The Station of Baha'u'llah is a situation like this.

You read the writings and it says not to exalt any Messenger above another and then there is numerous writings about the Distinction aspect

So it is obvious there is a lot we have to know on this subject. It would tie into what binds all of humanity together.

God the Son and God the Father is very interesting

Regards Tony
 
Old 05-08-2016, 08:01 AM   #9
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The holy Manifestations have three stations: the corporeal station, the station of the rational soul, and the station of perfect divine manifestation and heavenly splendour. Their bodies perceive things only according to the capacity of the material world, and so it is that They have at certain times expressed physical weakness. For example: “I was asleep and unconscious; the breeze of God wafted over Me, awoke Me and summoned Me to voice His call”;[141] or when Christ was baptized in His thirtieth year and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him, having not manifested itself in Him before this time. All these things refer to the corporeal station of the Manifestations, but Their heavenly station encompasses all things, is aware of all mysteries, is informed of all signs, and rules supreme over all things. And this is equally true both before and after the intimation of Their mission. That is why Christ said: “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last”[142]—that is, there has never been, nor shall there ever be, any change or alteration in Me.


Abdulbaha, Some Answered Questions
 
Old 05-08-2016, 08:32 AM   #10
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From the beginning, that sanctified Reality is undoubtedly aware of the secret of existence, and from childhood the signs of greatness are clearly manifested in Him. How then could He fail, in spite of such bounties and perfections, to be conscious of His own station?



Abdulbaha, Some answered questions
 
Old 05-08-2016, 09:12 AM   #11
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Manifestations as Instruments of Creation

The problem needs to be re-framed in my opinion. The fallacy is that we think of the Manifestations in human terms, simply because we are human beings and that is how we think. It is our own limitation.

Everything the Manifestations of God do serve as profound symbolic events to educate the whole of mankind and bring about a transformation. The Manifestations of God are the instruments of creation that God uses. This is why Baha'u'llah is referred to as the Supreme Pen, He is literally like a Pen that God uses to write His will on the parchment of physical reality. Therefore, the Pen (Manifestation) is a bridge between the mind of God and physical reality (simply the Baha'i ringstone symbol).

In this regard, the Masters words are very clear and we can see how the Manifestation is used to express the Will of God, in a symbolic act, and indeed test humanity.

Moses did not kill another man, in the way that we typically think of one human being killing another human being...
 
Old 05-08-2016, 02:19 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by He is The One 19 View Post
Moses did not kill another man, in the way that we typically think of one human being killing another human being...
It could be that is also ties into the sacrifice of Jesus in the next Message from God, gives the scope of the extent of Gods forgiveness if we turn towards God.

Regards Tony
 
Old 05-08-2016, 04:02 PM   #13
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Exodus 2:11-15GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

Moses Commits Murder and Flees to Midian
11 In the course of time Moses grew up. Then he went to see his own people and watched them suffering under forced labor. He saw a Hebrew, one of his own people, being beaten by an Egyptian. 12 He looked all around, and when he didn’t see anyone, he beat the Egyptian to death and hid the body in the sand.

13 When Moses went there the next day, he saw two Hebrew men fighting. He asked the one who started the fight, “Why are you beating another Hebrew?”

14 The man asked, “Who made you our ruler and judge? Are you going to kill me as you killed the Egyptian?” Then Moses was afraid and thought that everyone knew what he had done.

15 When Pharaoh heard what Moses had done, he tried to have him killed. But Moses fled from Pharaoh and settled in the land of Midian.


Exodus 2:11-15
 
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