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Old 01-11-2017, 02:48 AM   #1
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Some questions

Hi,

I am a Muslim and a seeker for truth. I have been comparing the Bahai Faith and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community for some time now.

Both are established in the world. But I think the Ahmadiyya is a larger in numbers and are more present in the society.

So my questions are:

1. If Bahai Faith accepts Mohammad as a Manifestation of God. We have to pay attention to his sayings the most, cause he was the most recent one in the chain of Manifestations.

The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi and he got killed. The Mahdi is a pure Islamic figure, therefore we have to look at what is said about the Mahdi in Islam. But when we observe the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad regarding the Mahdi, we clearly see that the Mahdi will come and will live AT THE SAME TIME AS THE MESSIAH, which will be the retuning of Jesus and they both will meet. But the Bab did not meet Jesus. The Mahdi will come at a time when the Muslim Community will be ina a very week condition. So the Mahdis work is to revive the Islamic Faith. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Founder of the Ahmadis, wrote 70 - 80 books in the defence of Islam and in trying to proove the truthfulness of the Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Quran. So where did Bab do these works?

All the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Quran state, that the Mahdi and the Messiah will not create a new religion, but rather will "fight" for the revival of Islam.

2. We Muslims believe that the Quran is the Final Law for all of mankind. It contains all topics, rules, points that are necessary for a human to achieve the highest moral and spiritual status and to create a communion with God. As Bahais say, that their religion is a new religion which covers the requirements of this particular time, I would like to know some new points of this religionl. Are there any new e.g. eating and drinking rules? Or are there any new laws regarding sexual intercourse, etc...?

What is the answer of the Bahais to this?

Last edited by somemuslim; 01-11-2017 at 03:44 AM.
 
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:42 AM   #2
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Hello ! Salam Aleykoum !

Quote:
The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi
Interesting fact : in his writings, the Gate refers to himself as the Qaim ! The word Mahdi is very rarely used in his writings, whereas he clearly claims to be the Qaim.

Now, I will let my colleagues answer to your questions, for I trust them more than myself when it comes to explaining such matters.

Best of luck.
 
Old 01-11-2017, 07:31 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somemuslim View Post
1. If Bahai Faith accepts Mohammad as a Manifestation of God. We have to pay attention to his sayings the most, cause he was the most recent one in the chain of Manifestations.
Indeed, I think it is very important to pay attention to the sayings of Muhammad, on that we can agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by somemuslim View Post
The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi and he got killed. The Mahdi is a pure Islamic figure, therefore we have to look at what is said about the Mahdi in Islam.
I agree, but then we have a fundamental question that we must ask: According to which Islam?? I'll elaborate below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by somemuslim View Post
But when we observe the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad regarding the Mahdi, we clearly see that the Mahdi will come and will live AT THE SAME TIME AS THE MESSIAH, which will be the retuning of Jesus and they both will meet. But the Bab did not meet Jesus. The Mahdi will come at a time when the Muslim Community will be ina a very week condition. So the Mahdis work is to revive the Islamic Faith.
All of these prophecies come from Hadith, which is where we probably differ in viewpoint.

It's also why I ask "according to which Islam??" earlier, as the Hadith accepted as true about the Mahdi by the Sunnis is different from that accepted by the Shia. And it even differs further within the differing sects within the Shia and Sunni branches.

Ultimately, though, I personally cannot find a way to reconcile the idea of Hadith itself with my own beliefs.

Like you're views on the Bab, I think the idea of Hadith has One Big Flaw as well, and that flaw is the Quran. The entire point of the Quran and of Muhammad's literacy campaign and efforts to teach people to read (like how he freed prisoners of war if they could teach three Muslims to read) had a specific goal in mind, and it's a goal that every Muslim and Baha'i agrees on. The purpose was so that there would be one record of the Word of God, that all peoples could read, thus avoiding the confusion and corruption of the past era in which the Word of God existed only in second-hand accounts of the Prophets and was tightly controlled by a literate class.

This is what made the Quran more than the Gospel, I think you'd agree, the fact that it is the firsthand account of the Prophet, rather than the secondhand account of what that Prophet said. No longer would mankind need to debate over who's secondhand account was more valid than another person's, as the Christians must do with their accounts of Jesus. That was the beauty of the Quran, everyone could reliably know it was the Word of God through Muhammad!!

Which is why I can't figure out how to accept the idea of the Hadith. The Quran was given to mankind to fix the problems that the early Christians had. It gave one, firsthand account of the scriptures, and thus Islam would not need any sort of Council of Nicene.

But Hadith is not the Quran, it is not the firsthand account of Muhammad's teachings that God has given us. The Hadith is a secondhand account of Muhammad's words. And thus, it is the subject of debates over which Hadiths are valid and which are invalid, among the Muslim community just as the Christians must debate which Gospels are correct (Was Jesus born in a cave or a manger??).

But if the Hadiths are valid, and God is expecting mankind to get their knowledge from the Quran and the Hadiths, then doesn't it have the exact same flaws as the early Christians had in trying to validate their own secondhand scriptures?? If mankind still has to debate over which secondhand account is better than the others, then what problem did the Quran solve?? Why would God give us a set of Laws clearly written down so there would be no confusion on one hand, and then on the other hand still expect us to figure out the rest of His Laws through secondhand accounts??

I personally believe the Quran is the perfect written Word of God. Which is why I simply cannot find a way to believe in the Hadiths, even the Hadiths I'd personally love to believe in (like the Hadith on how to treat noncombatants in war). If the Quran is perfect, as I have every reason to believe, there is no need for Hadith. If the Quran was given to us so that we would no longer need to rely on secondhand accounts about our Prophets, then God would not require us to continue to rely upon secondhand accounts.

So I can ultimately see why you see a flaw, if you can find a way to reconcile your own belief in the Quran with a belief in Hadith. But, personally, myself believing in the Quran's perfection, I don't consider any secondhand accounts something to consider, and thus the fact that secondhand accounts don't line up with the story of the Bab don't concern me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by somemuslim View Post
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Founder of the Ahmadis, wrote 70 - 80 books in the defence of Islam and in trying to proove the truthfulness of the Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Quran. So where did Bab do these works?
The Bab wrote extensive commentaries on the Quran and its Surahs, his first writing even was such a commentary, on the Surah of Joseph. If you're fortunate enough to speak Arabic or Persian you may be able to track these down, though unfortunately not as many people are as eager as I am to translate these works into English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by somemuslim View Post
All the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Quran state, that the Mahdi and the Messiah will not create a new religion, but rather will "fight" for the revival of Islam.
The Bab and Baha'u'llah did not create a new religion, in the Baha'i belief, but revived the religion of Muhammad. Just as Muhammad did not create a new religion, but revived the religion of Jesus. Just as Jesus did not create a new religion, but revived the religion of the Prophets that came before him, etc. etc.

The fact that we as humans tend to be flawed and try to categorize these things as "different religions" when they are, in fact, all part of the same Unified Religion of mankind, doesn't change the fact that every Prophet has billed their message as being a part of the same religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by somemuslim View Post
2. We Muslims believe that the Quran is the Final Law for all of mankind. It contains all topics, rules, points that are necessary for a human to achieve the highest moral and spiritual status and to create a communion with God.
Indeed!! Which is, again, a reason I cannot find a way to imagine that Hadith contain any truths. (Not to sound like a broken record), but if the Quran was the final Law, how could any Hadith be valid?? It's just something I've never understood about Muslim belief, I'm afraid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by somemuslim View Post
As Bahais say, that their religion is a new religion which covers the requirements of this particular time, I would like to know some new points of this religionl. Are there any new e.g. eating and drinking rules? Or are there any new laws regarding sexual intercourse, etc...?
Some new and some old. Anything that "dulls the mind" is now forbidden, not just alcohol. Drugs that speed up the mind like coffee still appear to be permitted, though. As for intercourse, the only new rule I can think of is that the limit on wives is restricted from four to two, and even then there is an extremely high standard for treating the wives justly if one is to have two wives (to the point where some Baha'is speculate that it would be impossible). The practice of keeping young boys dressed as girls as sex slaves (unfortunately not uncommon in Persia and (to this day) Afghanistan) is explicitly forbidden, though technically that was forbidden under Muhammad's Law, it still needed to be explicitly stated for how flagrantly that law is violated. There's some new hygiene laws that cover things that did not exist at the time of Muhammad and thus could not be banned (like Persian bathhouses) and things that would have been hard for people in the medieval era to accomplish (like bathing once a day, or showering once a week). Warfare is explicitly forbidden now, whereas it was merely restricted to necessary circumstances in Muhammad's time.

These are just what I can recall off of the top of my head, the full list of laws is pretty much found in the book the Kitab-i-Aqdas, which you can read here.

Last edited by Walrus; 01-11-2017 at 07:37 AM.
 
Old 01-11-2017, 07:16 PM   #4
Jcc
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Joined: Mar 2013
From: Edwardsville, Illinois, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somemuslim View Post
Hi,

I am a Muslim and a seeker for truth. I have been comparing the Bahai Faith and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community for some time now.

Both are established in the world. But I think the Ahmadiyya is a larger in numbers and are more present in the society.

So my questions are:

1. If Bahai Faith accepts Mohammad as a Manifestation of God. We have to pay attention to his sayings the most, cause he was the most recent one in the chain of Manifestations.

The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi and he got killed. The Mahdi is a pure Islamic figure, therefore we have to look at what is said about the Mahdi in Islam. But when we observe the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad regarding the Mahdi, we clearly see that the Mahdi will come and will live AT THE SAME TIME AS THE MESSIAH, which will be the retuning of Jesus and they both will meet. But the Bab did not meet Jesus. The Mahdi will come at a time when the Muslim Community will be ina a very week condition. So the Mahdis work is to revive the Islamic Faith. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Founder of the Ahmadis, wrote 70 - 80 books in the defence of Islam and in trying to proove the truthfulness of the Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Quran. So where did Bab do these works?

All the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Quran state, that the Mahdi and the Messiah will not create a new religion, but rather will "fight" for the revival of Islam.

2. We Muslims believe that the Quran is the Final Law for all of mankind. It contains all topics, rules, points that are necessary for a human to achieve the highest moral and spiritual status and to create a communion with God. As Bahais say, that their religion is a new religion which covers the requirements of this particular time, I would like to know some new points of this religionl. Are there any new e.g. eating and drinking rules? Or are there any new laws regarding sexual intercourse, etc...?

What is the answer of the Bahais to this?
Greetings!

1. The return of Prophets revealed in the Holy books are a spiritual reality. It is not a return of the same body that existed 1000 or 2000 years ago, it is a return of the spiritual reality. Therefore, the Bab is the Mahdi and also the Qaim if Shi'ih Islam, and He was born to a woman and grew to age 25 until His reality was fully revealed. Likewise Baha'u'llah is the return of Jesus. They both were on Earth at the same time and met in spirit, so the prophesy of Islam is fulfilled by both the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

2. The Prophet Muhammad is the last Prophet of the cycle which began with Adam, and included Prophets such as Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. This great cycle ended with the Prophet Muhammad, and the Holy books including both the Bible and the Qur'an describe the end of the world and the Resurrection which comes after.

The reality is that this has already come to pass, the old religious system, the old social system, science, knowledge and really everything that relates to the world as it has been for 6000 years has totally changed in just the past 150 years. The resurrection means a new spiritual life which comes from a new Revelation from God.
 
Old 01-11-2017, 07:36 PM   #5
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What is the answer of the Bahais to this?

The sun rises, sheds light for a day, then disappears.
If we say the sun will rise again, it is the same sun which rises, but we call it another day.

The Spiritul Sun rises from age to age. Its light is the religion of Allah, God, the Great Spirit.

This Sun rose at the time of Abraham, and set for awhile.
This Sun rose at the time of Moses, and set for awhile.
This Sun rose at the time of Jesus, and again at the time of Muhammad, Praise be unto Him, and to all the Prophets. They shed Their Light, and we protest, saying: You are not the Sun!!

The Bab was a Great Light, the Return of the Spiritual Sun. He lived at the same time as Baha'u'llah.

The Holy Quran speaks of the Summoner, Who will summon the people to Allah on the Day of Judgement, when mankind shall stand before Allah.
This is that Day. We have been summoned.

Some of us testify to the Truth of the Day of Judgement.
Some of us are killed or imprisoned for doing so, rather than recanting our belief that Baha'u'llah is the Lord of the Day of Reckoning.

Allah created us with our own eyes, our own mind, and gave us ears to hear His Words and hearts to understand. The "verses" are the proofs. This was true at the time of the Revelation of the Quran. It is true for the words of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Muhammad said: "Produce a Surah like it." For 1260 years no one could accomplish this. The the Bab appeared and accomplished this, revealing Holy verses at astonishing rate, without pause or thought. No one could refute His verses, so they killed Him to silence Him.

But, as you said, the Mahdi (or Qaim) was to appear at the time of the Return of Jesus, as His contemporary, and this is exactly what happened. The Bab was born in 1819 on the 1st day of Muharram, and Baha'u'llah was born in 1817 on the 2nd day of Muharram.

There are hundreds of prophecies fulfilled from Jewish, Christian, and Muslim traditions, but it is the "verses" which are the proofs, but only for those who have eyes to see. Study the verses.

Allah'u'Abha
 
Old 01-13-2017, 01:45 PM   #6
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hello dear somemuslim.
Wonderful to see you here. I trust you will think deeply upon responses given you here, I am an old man, if you sat and talked with me face to face I would enjoy the dialog, but in a written form I would become lost.
Dear Friend only through deep meditation and prayer will you discover the truth.
blessings to you
bill
 
Old 03-05-2017, 03:56 AM   #7
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Dear Walrus:

I went through your reply and went through it again. I feel it is flawed fo rthe following reasons.

When you ask the question which Islam, the answer has to be the Shiite Islam because the Bab and Bahaullah were all Shiites in their previous avataar - before they made their respective claims. Their teachers were Shiiite - Sayyed Kazim Rashti and Shaykh Ahmed Ahsai. They were all Shiites.

Shiite Islam has a very rich treasure trove of Hadith. Yes, there are false traditions, but there is an scientific way of establishing their veracity - which is you compare them to the Quran.

I think Bahais deny Hadith - traditions because if they referred to Shiite traditions, there would be foundation of the Bahai Faith. the Quran and traditions both are unanimous in their view that there is no Prophet, no messenger and no book, no religion after Islam.

Happy to discuss.

Regards
Imran
 
Old 03-05-2017, 03:58 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dale ramsdell View Post
The sun rises, sheds light for a day, then disappears.
If we say the sun will rise again, it is the same sun which rises, but we call it another day.

The Spiritul Sun rises from age to age. Its light is the religion of Allah, God, the Great Spirit.

This Sun rose at the time of Abraham, and set for awhile.
This Sun rose at the time of Moses, and set for awhile.
This Sun rose at the time of Jesus, and again at the time of Muhammad, Praise be unto Him, and to all the Prophets. They shed Their Light, and we protest, saying: You are not the Sun!!

The Bab was a Great Light, the Return of the Spiritual Sun. He lived at the same time as Baha'u'llah.

The Holy Quran speaks of the Summoner, Who will summon the people to Allah on the Day of Judgement, when mankind shall stand before Allah.
This is that Day. We have been summoned.

Some of us testify to the Truth of the Day of Judgement.
Some of us are killed or imprisoned for doing so, rather than recanting our belief that Baha'u'llah is the Lord of the Day of Reckoning.

Allah created us with our own eyes, our own mind, and gave us ears to hear His Words and hearts to understand. The "verses" are the proofs. This was true at the time of the Revelation of the Quran. It is true for the words of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Muhammad said: "Produce a Surah like it." For 1260 years no one could accomplish this. The the Bab appeared and accomplished this, revealing Holy verses at astonishing rate, without pause or thought. No one could refute His verses, so they killed Him to silence Him.

But, as you said, the Mahdi (or Qaim) was to appear at the time of the Return of Jesus, as His contemporary, and this is exactly what happened. The Bab was born in 1819 on the 1st day of Muharram, and Baha'u'llah was born in 1817 on the 2nd day of Muharram.

There are hundreds of prophecies fulfilled from Jewish, Christian, and Muslim traditions, but it is the "verses" which are the proofs, but only for those who have eyes to see. Study the verses.

Allah'u'Abha
Dear Dale, all your arguments are conjecture. I would love to see if the Bab himself used any of these arguments to make his claim. These arguments are the work of "intellectuals"

In fact even the earlier day revelations of the Bab including those in Qayyamul Asma and Sahifae Adaliyah contradict the claims of the Bahai Faith regarding the Bab.

Regards
Imran Shaykh
 
Old 03-05-2017, 04:00 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcc View Post
Greetings!

1. The return of Prophets revealed in the Holy books are a spiritual reality. It is not a return of the same body that existed 1000 or 2000 years ago, it is a return of the spiritual reality. Therefore, the Bab is the Mahdi and also the Qaim if Shi'ih Islam, and He was born to a woman and grew to age 25 until His reality was fully revealed. Likewise Baha'u'llah is the return of Jesus. They both were on Earth at the same time and met in spirit, so the prophesy of Islam is fulfilled by both the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

2. The Prophet Muhammad is the last Prophet of the cycle which began with Adam, and included Prophets such as Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. This great cycle ended with the Prophet Muhammad, and the Holy books including both the Bible and the Qur'an describe the end of the world and the Resurrection which comes after.

The reality is that this has already come to pass, the old religious system, the old social system, science, knowledge and really everything that relates to the world as it has been for 6000 years has totally changed in just the past 150 years. The resurrection means a new spiritual life which comes from a new Revelation from God.
Dear JCC:

Do we have any documented proof for the above? For any of the above?

Regards
Imran
 
Old 03-05-2017, 05:32 PM   #10
Jcc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imranshaykh View Post
Dear JCC:

Do we have any documented proof for the above? For any of the above?

Regards
Imran
You may read The Kitab-i-Iqan in Farsi کتاب اŒ‚ا† | کتابخا†‡” …راجع ب‡ائŒ
Or English
The Kitb-i-qn | Bah

Consider this: how can God (Allah) be be the infinitely powerful Creator if all Revelation stops after one Prophet (Muhammad, PBUH)? During the time of Muhammad, the Jews said that there can be no Revelation after Moses, until the Messiah comes, because "God's hand is chained" The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

The Jewish and Christian clergy were not idolatrous, they were people of the book, but the problem was they blindly held on to tradition, believing only what the religious leaders said, and so they missed out on the revelation of Muhammad. Christians read in the Gospel that "Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will not pass away" and they believe this meant that there could not be a Prophet after Jesus. They are mistaken. Likewise, if Muslims say Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets and this means God is not capable of sending another they are doing the same thing that the Jewish and Christian people did.

As far as proof, look at the world, look at all the changes that have happened just in the last 200 years, everything is different. People may try to continue as they had in the past, but it doesn't work well, it becomes increasingly difficult to try to enforce the old religious laws, it produces too much conflict in a world that is becoming blended culturally and interdependent.

My best wishes to you in your search,
JCC.

Last edited by Jcc; 03-05-2017 at 05:41 PM.
 
Old 03-06-2017, 08:18 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imranshaykh View Post
Shiite Islam has a very rich treasure trove of Hadith. Yes, there are false traditions, but there is an scientific way of establishing their veracity - which is you compare them to the Quran.
The only thing that can be established by comparing Hadith to the Quran is whether the Quran confirms the Hadith, denies the Hadith, or says nothing on the same subject as the Hadith.

Which creates a problem. If the Quran says nothing on the subject of the Hadith you cannot verify it by comparing it to the Quran.

For example: There is a Hadith that states an angel will not enter any home that has a dog in it.

The Quran does not say that an angel will refuse to enter a home with a dog, but the Quran also doesn't say that an angel will enter a home with a dog.

Since the Quran says nothing one way or the other on the subject, then how on earth would we use the Quran to rule on its authenticity, one way or the other??

Also, if the Hadith can all be verified by the Quran, then I have a very simple question: Why do we even need Hadith then??

If the Quran can verify or disprove all Hadith, shouldn't the Quran be sufficient??

Quote:
Originally Posted by imranshaykh View Post
I think Bahais deny Hadith...
Hold on there!! No, Baha'is do not deny Hadith. I personally do not see any logic in Hadith. There are many Baha'is, on this very forum, even, who will quote from Hadiths and believe in them. It's not a Baha'i opinion, it is my personal one, an opinion I held before becoming Baha'i, and I don't pretend it is anything more than my personal view. Please do not mistake it as anything more than that!!

Hadith still just doesn't make sense to me. And I'm afraid until my specific concerns are addressed, it will not make sense to me. The beauty of the Quran is that it is the perfect word of God, which I assume is a statement you agree with. Because of the Quran and Muhammad's literacy campaign, there was no corruption within it, like the Tahrif you could find in Jewish or Christian Scriptures, which due to their age and the limitations of their era, suffered from being secondhand or thirdhand accounts of the people who witnessed the Prophets, rather than the direct Word of God through the Prophet themselves.

Anyone who's played a game of "telephone" where people in a line whisper a message in one another's ear and observe how different the message at the end is from the initial one can understand why the secondhand recordings of the Gospel weren't as great a thing as the direct Word of God as written.

The Quran is free of the concept of Tahrif, which is why it is so great!! My problem with the Hadith, though, is that they have the very same faults as a game of telephone, it is a secondhand account, and not the direct Word of God through Muhammad. Hadith can either be confirmed or rebuked by Quranic verse, in which case the Hadith is unnecessary, as the Quran communicates the exact same message, or the subject the Hadith covers is NOT mentioned in the Quran, cannot be verified, and suffers from Tahrif.

So every time I ponder the Hadith, I get to the same question on the subject:

Why would God solve the problem of Tahrif with the Quran, only to reintroduce the problem of Tahrif with Hadith??

Since it would not make sense for God to do this, I can only logically conclude that the Quran is indeed perfect, and Hadiths are not an intended part of the dispensation.

Unfortunately, until the Problem of Tahrif can be solved, I can't put trust in Hadith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imranshaykh View Post
the Quran and traditions both are unanimous in their view that there is no Prophet, no messenger and no book,
I've already explained my views on Hadith, and as far as I know, the Quran's statement interpreted commonly is "there is no Prophet after Muhammad" is merely 33:40:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quran 33:40
Muhammad is not the father of one of your men, but the Messenger of God and seal of the prophets. And ever is God, of all things, Knowing.
Specifically he is the Khatam an-Nabiyyin. My knowledge of Arabic is not great, so anyone more knowledgeable on the language may feel free to correct or clarify.

Khatam in modern usage can mean "Last" or "Seal". The usage of "khatam" as "last" and synonymous with "akhir" appears to have emerged prior to the introduction of the Quran based on interpretations of 33:40. We can see this in how the this word is used in the Quran, every other verse where "khatam" appears being specifically the word "Seal" and never, from context, possible to interpret as "last", instead other words used for "last" throughout the rest of the Quran. The complete use of "khatam" in the Quran is below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quran 2:7
God has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quran 6:46
Say, "Have you considered: if God should take away your hearing and your sight and set a seal upon your hearts, which deity other than God could bring them (back) to you?" Look how we diversify the verses; then they (still) turn away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quran 36:65
That Day, We will seal over their mouths, and their hands will speak to Us, and their feet will testify about what they used to earn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quran 42:24
Or do they say, "He has invented about God a lie"? But if God willed, He could seal over your heart. And Allah eliminates falsehood and establishes the truth by His words. Indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quran 83:25
They will be given to drink (pure) wine (which was) sealed.
So from the above it is rather clear that, based on the language with which the Quran used, the appearance of "khatam" in the phrase "Khatam an-Nabiyyin" is best translated as "Seal of the Prophets" rather than "Last of the Prophets", as "khatam" is used several times elsewhere in the Quran to mean "seal" and never else used to mean "last", which seems to indicate that the understanding of "khatam" as being synonymous with "akhir" coming later, probably based on the common interpretation of the title "Seal of the Prophets."

Also, consider the specific wording of 6:46, which implies that That Which God Seals Only God May Unseal, which in turn indicates that God can Unseal what he has Sealed.

Also of note, according to scholars I have read on the subject, the status of "Seal of the Prophets" indicates that Muhammad's dispensation will rule until the Day of Qiyamah (Resurrection).

This is a rather important distinction to noting the Baha'i understanding of things, as we believe that the Day of Qiyamah has already passed. The seal is thus unsealed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imranshaykh View Post
no religion after Islam.
Indeed. I agree. There is no religion after Submission to God. The Quran makes it also clear there is no religion that predates Submission to God. It was the first religion and is the last religion. It is the religion of Abraham, yourself, and myself.
 
Old 03-06-2017, 09:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
For example: There is a Hadith that states an angel will not enter any home that has a dog in it.

The Quran does not say that an angel will refuse to enter a home with a dog, but the Quran also doesn't say that an angel will enter a home with a dog.
.
Indeed that Hadith is not literally compatible with Quran. But spiritually it is compatible and has parallel with Quranic verses.

In some verses of Quran, Dog is an allusion to false Religious Leaders. Angels are 'heavenly confirmations'. So, its figurative meaning is compatible with Quran. places that are lead by false religious leaders, do not receive confirmations. It is like the Hadith that says, the Sun rises from its west, which literally is not in Quran, but nevertheless is a true Hadith, because the Sun is Qaim, and West are successors of Muhammad who are from lineage of the Prophet.
 
Old 03-06-2017, 11:59 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Indeed that Hadith is not literally compatible with Quran. But spiritually it is compatible and has parallel with Quranic verses.

In some verses of Quran, Dog is an allusion to false Religious Leaders. Angels are 'heavenly confirmations'. So, its figurative meaning is compatible with Quran. places that are lead by false religious leaders, do not receive confirmations. It is like the Hadith that says, the Sun rises from its west, which literally is not in Quran, but nevertheless is a true Hadith, because the Sun is Qaim, and West are successors of Muhammad who are from lineage of the Prophet.
Sure, but, that doesn't really handle the Tahrif problem with Hadiths. Their either confirmed by what the Quran says, rebuffed by what it says, or in a limbo-state with no really good way to validate them.
 
Old 03-06-2017, 12:50 PM   #14
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Sure, but, that doesn't really handle the Tahrif problem with Hadiths. Their either confirmed by what the Quran says, rebuffed by what it says, or in a limbo-state with no really good way to validate them.
It all has to do with interpretations of the word of God. The idea is identical with Bahai teachings.
In Bahai Faith, Abdulbaha was appointed to do the interpretations of the Words of Bahaullah.

In the same way, in Islam, Imams were appointed for infallible interpretations of Quran, because Quran says, only those who are well-grounded in knowledge know its interpretation. Then Quran says that, the People of the House of Muhammad are without Sin. Hence the Imams of Shia said that they are the appointed well-grounded in knowledge that God has appointed, and talked about in Quran.


So, the Muslims often disagree about interpretations of verses of Quran, because each person have a different opinion. Their problem were solved if, they refer to the Hadithes from Imams, that interpreted the Quran. Indeed most of the verses of Quran were interpreted by Imams, and are in the recorded traditions, and if Muslims used those, they would not become divided so much. The problem is, how does one know, if a particular hadith of Imam, is authentic. They, themselves have said that, if someone attributes a Hadith to us, then, if there is witness and evidence for it in the sayings of prophet Muhammad, OR in the verses of Quran, then you are to accept it, otherwise reject it. Muhammad also said, accept my Hadithes if the do not contradict with Quran, and are compatible with Quran. If it contradicts then reject it. From my personal experience, this method that They Themselves have said works every time, as i have also noticed everytime I followed their instructions, and a Hadith was validated, by Islamic method, it was also compatible with the Bahai Writings.
Essentially, during the period of Islam, and before the Bahai faith, the Muslims must have used interpretations of the Imams, and if there was no way to recognize true Hadithes of Imams, i would say, the Religion of God would have not been completed and would have failed, because there must have been a way to know the interpretations of Quran correctly.

However, Muslims have not used this method to validate the Hadithes. Instead they came up with their own invented way, of classification of Hadithes as weak to Strong. This classification is often based on the Chains of narrators. If they thought the narrators are trustworthy and confirms their view, they said its strong. If they did not like a person in the chain, they said its weak. If the Hadith is in Shia sources, Sunnis did not accept it, and if the Hadith is in Sunni sources, shia sect did not accept it.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 03-06-2017 at 01:05 PM.
 
Old 03-06-2017, 02:25 PM   #15
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Here is an example how the Muslims differ in interpretation of Quran. For example here is various translation of Quran 17:71,:

M. Pickthall:

On the day when We shall summon all men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand - such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.


Shakir:

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.


Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985):

One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.


Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar :

On a Day when We will call to every clan with their leader, then, whoever was given his book in his right hand, those will recite their book and they will not be wronged in the least.



So, the various Muslims translators based on their imaginations, provided a different translation.
But if they had referred to the interpretations of Imam Sadiq, it would have been clear what this verse is about:



In Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the day when We will call every nation with their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is Qa’im of the people of that time."


So, according to Imam Sadiq that verse is about Imam Qaim. But now we have to have another evidence from Prophet or Quran to validate the Authenticity of the Hadith of Sadiq. Here is a Hadith from Muhammad, as a witness:


With regards to this verse, it is recorded in the Book Mizanul Hikmat, In a tradition attributed to Prophet Muhammad, that He said, “He shall call all people to the Imam of their age with Book of God, and tradition of their prophet”


So, because a tradition from Imam, has a witness from sayings of Muhammad, Muslims are to accept that this verse is about Qaim, the Imam of Age who comes with the Book of God. Its not about personal records of deeds and other fancies that people imagined. After all who can in Islam claim he understands Quran better than Imam Sadiq and Muhammad? And this is how islam went wrong!

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 03-06-2017 at 02:27 PM.
 
Old 03-07-2017, 01:00 PM   #16
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They, themselves have said that, if someone attributes a Hadith to us, then, if there is witness and evidence for it in the sayings of prophet Muhammad, OR in the verses of Quran, then you are to accept it, otherwise reject it. Muhammad also said, accept my Hadithes if the do not contradict with Quran, and are compatible with Quran. If it contradicts then reject it.
Interesting.

Do you have a source on where this methodology comes from?? I don't recall reading any such sayings in the Quran.
 
Old 03-07-2017, 02:49 PM   #17
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Interesting.

Do you have a source on where this methodology comes from?? I don't recall reading any such sayings in the Quran.
Yes, it is in Recorded Traditions from Imams and Muhammad in the Book al-kafi, Vol 1. Page 69.
Abdulbaha asked a Bahai scholar, named Sadrul sodouri Hamidani, to write a book, to prove that prophecies of Qaim is fulfilled with manifestation of the Bab and Bahaullah. Sadrul sodour, humbly accepted Abdulbaha's request. This person, used to be exceptionally knowledgeable Shia Scholar who became a Bahai. In the beginning of the Chapter of his book, he quoted these traditions, and used them as a method throughout his book.



When Bahaullah was writing the Book of Iqan, to explain that the new Revelation and Manifestation, is the fulfilment of the Prophecies of Islam, He quoted both from Quran, as well as Recorded Traditions. So, when Bahaullah has done it in this manner, this is how Bahaullah taught us. For example, Bahaullah wrote in Iqan:

"....the Imms, those unquenchable lights of divine guidance, have interpreted the verse: “What can such expect but that God should come down to them
overshadowed with clouds,” (2:210)—a sign which they have unquestionably regarded as one of the features of the Day of Resurrection—as referring to the Q’im and His manifestation.""

What we notice here that Bahaullah, is referring them, to how Imams interpreted that verse. So, I follow the same method Bahaullah did.

Infact, Shia Imam, Bagher, with regards to the verse 2:210, has said, it denotes that Mahdi comes to Iraq. Which clearly fulfilled, when Bahaullah came to Iraq.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 03-07-2017 at 06:18 PM.
 
Old 03-07-2017, 04:01 PM   #18
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These are recorded in the book al-Kafi:

Imam Sadiq said: "If they narrated to you a Hadith and you find a witness for it in the Book of God or in Hadith of the holy Prophet (it is acceptable), otherwise, you attribute it to the narrator (meaning, that hadith is not from us, thus reject it)."


"Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, ‘Everything must be referred to the holy Quran and the Sunnah, the noble traditions of the holy Prophet (s.a.) and any Hadith that does not agree with the holy Quran it is a useless statement.’"

abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said the following:
"The holy Prophet once addressed the people in Mina (a place in Makkah) saying, "O people, whatever comes to you in the form of my Hadith you must see if it agrees with the holy book of Allah then know that I have said it but whatever comes to you that does not agree with the book of Allah then know that I have not said it."

"The holy Prophet (s.a.) said: "Over every truth there is a reality and above every valid issue there is light. Whatever agrees with the holy Quran you must follow it and whatever does not agree disregard it."

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 03-07-2017 at 06:30 PM.
 
Old 03-07-2017, 04:05 PM   #19
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Conjecture

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Originally Posted by imranshaykh View Post
Dear Dale, all your arguments are conjecture. I would love to see if the Bab himself used any of these arguments to make his claim. These arguments are the work of "intellectuals"

In fact even the earlier day revelations of the Bab including those in Qayyamul Asma and Sahifae Adaliyah contradict the claims of the Bahai Faith regarding the Bab.

Regards
Imran Shaykh
Imran,
Thank you for your honest thoughts. Are there any "proofs" of the appearance of Muhammad which are not "conjecture"? Are not the arguments for the Quran the work of "intellectuals"?

. So here is the thing. If our spiritual eyes are mature, they are able to recognize the Light emanating from the Heaven of the Quran, as well as the Gospels, and the Bayan, also the Kitab-i-Iqan, etc.

. So in this sense, as "The verses as proofs" is the weight of the argument, whether of the validity of the Quran or the Bayan or the Iqan, it transcends mere intelectual assertions.

. Two souls, both in the presence of Jesus, saw the same Prophet and listened to His Words. One crucified Him, while the other knelt before Him, crying: My Lord and My God.

. In the Day of Muhammad (PBUH), there were those who pelted Him with stones and insults, and those who believed. The Holy Quran is filled with warnings from the Warner, of the coming of the Day of Judgement.

. So respectfully, I put to you, that I am ready to stand before the Lord of the Day of Judgement and declare the "verses as proof" of the Divinity of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
 
Old 03-12-2017, 01:09 PM   #20
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verses as proof... the Bab

[QUOTE=somemuslim;76262]Hi,

I am a Muslim and a seeker for truth. I have been comparing the Bahai Faith and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community for some time now.

. As to the "verses as proof", here is something from the Bab:

. "THERE is no doubt that the Almighty hath sent down these verses unto Him [the Bb], even as He sent down unto the Apostle of God. Indeed no less than a hundred thousand verses similar to these have already been disseminated among the people, not to mention His Epistles, His Prayers or His learned and philosophical treatises. He revealeth no less than a thousand verses within the space of five hours. He reciteth verses at a speed consonant with the capacity of His amanuensis to set them down. Thus, it may well be considered that if from the inception of this Revelation until now He had been left unhindered, how vast then would have been the volume of writings disseminated from His pen.
If ye contend that these verses cannot, of themselves, be regarded as a proof, scan the pages of the Qurn. If God hath established therein any evidence other than the revealed verses to demonstrate the validity of the prophethood of His Apostlemay the blessings of God rest upon Himye may then have your scruples about Him

. Concerning the sufficiency of the Book as a proof, God hath revealed: Is it not enough for them that We have sent down unto Thee the Book to be recited to them? In this verily is a mercy and a warning to those who believe. 1 When God hath testified that the Book is a sufficient testimony, as is affirmed in the text, how can one dispute this truth by saying that the Book in itself is not a conclusive proof?"
 
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