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Old 08-09-2018, 09:45 AM   #1
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A Question About the Day of Judgment

Allaho Abha all my dear friends,

I'll directly go to my question. In Bible, there is the talk of the Day of Judgment when God comes down on the clouds, with two angels. now, I want to know if that Day is the Time of Bahaullah or the time of Mohammad? Jesus says His laws won't change until the Day of Judgment. Then Mohammad comes and changes the laws; but who are the "two angels" if it is the time of Mohammad?
 
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:58 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
Allaho Abha all my dear friends,

I'll directly go to my question. In Bible, there is the talk of the Day of Judgment when God comes down on the clouds, with two angels. now, I want to know if that Day is the Time of Bahaullah or the time of Mohammad? Jesus says His laws won't change until the Day of Judgment. Then Mohammad comes and changes the laws; but who are the "two angels" if it is the time of Mohammad?
If you are talking about the two witnesses in Revelation 11, then according to 'Abdu'l-Baha it refers to the time of Muhammad, the identity of the witnesses being Muhammad and his son-in-law, Ali.

If that's not what you meant by two angels, could you specify the chapter or verse of Revelation??

If it is Revelation 11, here's 'Abdu'l-Baha's words on the matter (copying it here in case the common Baha'i writings websites are blocked in your country):

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three-score days, clothed in sackcloth.” These two witnesses are Muḥammad the Messenger of God, and ‘Alí, son of Abú Tálib.

In the Qur’án it is said that God addressed Muḥammad, the Messenger of God, saying: “We made You a Witness, a Herald of good news, and a Warner”—that is to say, We have established Thee as the witness, the giver of good tidings, and as One bringing the wrath of God. The meaning of “a witness” is one by whose testimony things may be verified. The commands of these two witnesses were to be performed for twelve hundred and sixty days, each day signifying a year. Now, Muḥammad was the root, and ‘Alí the branch, like Moses and Joshua. It is said they “are clothed in sackcloth,” meaning that they, apparently, were to be clothed in old raiment, not in new raiment; in other words, in the beginning they would possess no splendor in the eyes of the people, nor would their Cause appear new; for Muḥammad’s spiritual Law corresponds to that of Christ in the Gospel, and most of His laws relating to material things correspond to those of the Pentateuch. This is the meaning of the old raiment.

Then it is said: “These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.” These two souls are likened to olive trees because at that time all lamps were lighted by olive oil. The meaning is two persons from whom that spirit of the wisdom of God, which is the cause of the illumination of the world, appears. These lights of God were to radiate and shine; therefore, they are likened to two candlesticks: the candlestick is the abode of the light, and from it the light shines forth. In the same way the light of guidance would shine and radiate from these illumined souls.

Then it is said: “They are standing before God,” meaning that they are standing in the service of God, and educating the creatures of God, such as the barbarous nomad Arab tribes of the Arabian peninsula, whom they educated in such a way that in those days they reached the highest degree of civilization, and their fame and renown became worldwide.

“And if any man would hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies.” That is to say, that no one would be able to withstand them, that if a person wished to belittle their teachings and their law, he would be surrounded and exterminated by this same law which proceedeth out of their mouth; and everyone who attempted to injure, to antagonize and to hate them would be destroyed by a command which would come out of their mouth. And thus it happened: all their enemies were vanquished, put to flight and annihilated. In this most evident way God assisted them.

Afterward it is said: “These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy,” meaning that in that cycle they would be like kings. The law and teachings of Muḥammad, and the explanations and commentaries of ‘Alí, are a heavenly bounty; if they wish to give this bounty, they have power to do so. If they do not wish it, the rain will not fall: in this connection rain stands for bounty.

Then it is said: “They have power over water to turn it to blood,” meaning that the prophethood of Muḥammad was the same as that of Moses, and that the power of ‘Alí was the same as that of Joshua: if they wished, they could turn the water of the Nile into blood, so far as the Egyptians and those who denied them were concerned—that is to say, that that which was the cause of their life, through their ignorance and pride, became the cause of their death. So the kingdom, wealth and power of Pharaoh and his people, which were the causes of the life of the nation, became, through their opposition, denial and pride, the cause of death, destruction, dispersion, degradation and poverty. Hence these two witnesses have power to destroy the nations.

Then it is said: “And smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will,” meaning that they also would have the power and the material force necessary to educate the wicked and those who are oppressors and tyrants, for to these two witnesses God granted both outward and inward power, that they might educate and correct the ferocious, bloodthirsty, tyrannical nomad Arabs, who were like beasts of prey.

“And when they shall have finished their testimony” means when they should have performed that which they are commanded, and should have delivered the divine message, promoting the Law of God and propagating the heavenly teachings, to the intent that the signs of spiritual life might be manifest in souls, and the light of the virtues of the world of humanity might shine forth, until complete development should be brought about among the nomad tribes.

“The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them”: this beast means the Umayyads who attacked them from the pit of error, and who rose against the religion of Muḥammad and against the reality of ‘Alí—in other words, the love of God.

It is said, “The beast made war against these two witnesses” —that is to say, a spiritual war, meaning that the beast would act in entire opposition to the teachings, customs and institutions of these two witnesses, to such an extent that the virtues and perfections which were diffused by the power of those two witnesses among the peoples and tribes would be entirely dispelled, and the animal nature and carnal desires would conquer. Therefore, this beast making war against them would gain the victory—meaning that the darkness of error coming from this beast was to have ascendency over the horizons of the world, and kill those two witnesses—in other words, that it would destroy the spiritual life which they spread abroad in the midst of the nation, and entirely remove the divine laws and teachings, treading under foot the Religion of God. Nothing would thereafter remain but a lifeless body without spirit.

“And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” “Their bodies” means the Religion of God, and “the street” means in public view. The meaning of “Sodom and Egypt,” the place “where also our Lord was crucified,” is this region of Syria, and especially Jerusalem, where the Umayyads then had their dominions; and it was here that the Religion of God and the divine teachings first disappeared, and a body without spirit remained. “Their bodies” represents the Religion of God, which remained like a dead body without spirit.

“And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.”

As it was before explained, in the terminology of the Holy Books three days and a half signify three years and a half, and three years and a half are forty and two months, and forty and two months twelve hundred and sixty days; and as each day by the text of the Holy Book signifies one year, the meaning is that for twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the cycle of the Qur’án, the nations, tribes and peoples would look at their bodies—that is to say, that they would make a spectacle of the Religion of God: though they would not act in accordance with it, still, they would not suffer their bodies—meaning the Religion of God—to be put in the grave. That is to say, that in appearance they would cling to the Religion of God and not allow it to completely disappear from their midst, nor the body of it to be entirely destroyed and annihilated. Nay, in reality they would leave it, while outwardly preserving its name and remembrance.

Those “kindreds, people and nations” signify those who are gathered under the shadow of the Qur’án, not permitting the Cause and Law of God to be, in outward appearance, entirely destroyed and annihilated—for there are prayer and fasting among them—but the fundamental principles of the Religion of God, which are morals and conduct, with the knowledge of divine mysteries, have disappeared; the light of the virtues of the world of humanity, which is the result of the love and knowledge of God, is extinguished; and the darkness of tyranny, oppression, satanic passions and desires has become victorious. The body of the Law of God, like a corpse, has been exposed to public view for twelve hundred and sixty days, each day being counted as a year, and this period is the cycle of Muḥammad.

The people forfeited all that these two persons had established, which was the foundation of the Law of God, and destroyed the virtues of the world of humanity, which are the divine gifts and the spirit of this religion, to such a degree that truthfulness, justice, love, union, purity, sanctity, detachment and all the divine qualities departed from among them. In the religion only prayers and fasting persisted; this condition lasted for twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the duration of the cycle of the Furqán. It was as if these two persons were dead, and their bodies were remaining without spirit.

“And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.” “Those who dwelt upon the earth” means the other nations and races, such as the peoples of Europe and distant Asia, who, when they saw that the character of Islám was entirely changed, the Law of God forsaken—that virtues, zeal and honor had departed from among them, and that their qualities were changed—became happy, and rejoiced that corruption of morals had infected the people of Islám, and that they would in consequence be overcome by other nations. So this thing has come to pass. Witness this people which had attained the summit of power, how degraded and downtrodden it is now.

The other nations “shall send gifts to one another,” meaning that they should help each other, for “these two prophets tormented them that dwelt upon the earth”—that is, they overcame the other nations and peoples of the world and conquered them.

“And after three days and a half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them that saw them.” Three days and a half, as we before explained, is twelve hundred and sixty years. Those two persons whose bodies were lying spiritless are the teachings and the law that Muḥammad established and ‘Alí promoted, from which, however, the reality had departed and only the form remained. The spirit came again into them means that those foundations and teachings were again established. In other words, the spirituality of the Religion of God had been changed into materiality, and virtues into vices; the love of God had been changed into hatred, enlightenment into darkness, divine qualities into satanic ones, justice into tyranny, mercy into enmity, sincerity into hypocrisy, guidance into error, and purity into sensuality. Then after three days and a half, which by the terminology of the Holy Books is twelve hundred and sixty years, these divine teachings, heavenly virtues, perfections and spiritual bounties were again renewed by the appearance of the Báb and the devotion of Jináb-i-Quddús.

The holy breezes were diffused, the light of truth shone forth, the season of the life-giving spring came, and the morn of guidance dawned. These two lifeless bodies again became living, and these two great ones—one the Founder and the other the promoter—arose and were like two candlesticks, for they illumined the world with the light of truth.

“And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven,” meaning that from the invisible heaven they heard the voice of God, saying: You have performed all that was proper and fitting in delivering the teachings and glad tidings; you have given My message to the people and raised the call of God, and have accomplished your duty. Now, like Christ, you must sacrifice your life for the Well-Beloved, and be martyrs. And that Sun of Reality, and that Moon of Guidance, both, like Christ, set on the horizon of the greatest martyrdom and ascended to the Kingdom of God.

“And their enemies beheld them,” meaning that many of their enemies, after witnessing their martyrdom, realized the sublimity of their station and the exaltation of their virtue, and testified to their greatness and perfection.
 
Old 08-09-2018, 11:17 AM   #3
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very very good and complete explanation. thank you Walrus. so, can we say that the only Holy book in which the reference to the Day of Judgment is the Baha'i era is Quran? because all other books refer to the prophet after them.
 
Old 08-09-2018, 11:21 AM   #4
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and my other Question is that sometimes in the Bible (if I am not mistaken), Jerusalem is mentioned in relation to the Day of Judgment. but in time of Mohammad nothing special happened that was related to Jerusalem or mount Sinai or around that place. how can we explain that?
 
Old 08-09-2018, 11:27 AM   #5
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Jersulum actually is referring to the religion of God
 
Old 08-09-2018, 11:31 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Yousefy2 View Post
Jersulum actually is referring to the religion of God
oh! thank you
 
Old 08-09-2018, 11:36 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
very very good and complete explanation. thank you Walrus. so, can we say that the only Holy book in which the reference to the Day of Judgment is the Baha'i era is Quran? because all other books refer to the prophet after them.
According to 'Abdu'l-Baha, the entirety of the Book of Revelation seems to refer to both the era of Islam and the advent of the Baha'i Faith.

Here's the two places 'Abdu'l-Baha talks about Revelation for reference, part of which I quoted above:

Bahá'à Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

Bahá'à Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

Also, I know you're in a country that blocks some websites, so if you can't access the links above let me know and I'll go copy-paste the text into this thread.
 
Old 08-09-2018, 11:43 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
and my other Question is that sometimes in the Bible (if I am not mistaken), Jerusalem is mentioned in relation to the Day of Judgment. but in time of Mohammad nothing special happened that was related to Jerusalem or mount Sinai or around that place. how can we explain that?
Allah'u'abha Maymar. As Walrus has said, the Bible foretells of Muhammad and the Bab and Baha'u'llah. This reference starts in the old testament. Daniel gives the timeline to which Abdul'baha has explained in detail.

There is posts on this site about this we could link.

I hope you are well and happy, Regards Tony
 
Old 08-09-2018, 11:52 AM   #9
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I must add Baha'u'llah has written that each Messenger brings a 'Day of Judgement'. This day is the dispensation of that Messenger, the day starts at their declaration and ends when the new message is given.

I find it an interesting thought that our acceptance of God would be Judged on the message given in the age we live. Interesting as many people still find God only in Christ, or Muhammad, or any past Messenger, but the Standard in this age is Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony
 
Old 08-09-2018, 11:24 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
I must add Baha'u'llah has written that each Messenger brings a 'Day of Judgement'. This day is the dispensation of that Messenger, the day starts at their declaration and ends when the new message is given.

I find it an interesting thought that our acceptance of God would be Judged on the message given in the age we live. Interesting as many people still find God only in Christ, or Muhammad, or any past Messenger, but the Standard in this age is Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony
Thank you so much Tony;

The thing you mentioned, about the coming of each new Messenger of God being the Day of Judgment for the followers of the religion before it is the reason I wondered at first how there were references to the coming of Bab and Bahaullah in Bible, mentioned as the Day of Judgment. but after I red Abdul Baha talk on the Revelations of Saint John, my question is answered
Thank you again.
 
Old 08-09-2018, 11:27 PM   #11
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According to 'Abdu'l-Baha, the entirety of the Book of Revelation seems to refer to both the era of Islam and the advent of the Baha'i Faith.

Here's the two places 'Abdu'l-Baha talks about Revelation for reference, part of which I quoted above:

Bahá'à Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

Bahá'à Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

Also, I know you're in a country that blocks some websites, so if you can't access the links above let me know and I'll go copy-paste the text into this thread.
Thanks a lot Walrus,

As I have never been a Christian and never lived in a Christian country, I never thought I had to read Abdul Baha's talks on the St. John's revelation. I read it now for the first time and it is really good. it clarified everything to me. Thank you for reminding me to read it.

P.S: Yes, All Baha'i related sites, including the library and even this forum, are blocked in my country. But I have found a proxy for now. that is how I can come to visit the forum and also read from the B Library. May this proxy last long!
 
Old 08-09-2018, 11:35 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
May this proxy last long!
Yes please

Regards Tony
 
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