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Old 09-05-2014, 06:46 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Romane View Post
Good morning SmilingSkeptic



Pointless.

1. Of what value or use is it to give us free will, then not allow us to use it. That is one of the reasons you are an atheist, and I am not.

2. Name me the CEO of any large organisation who does every task in the organisation. I'll pre-empt, and answer that straight away. Not one. The term used is 'delegate'. Another term in a similar sense is 'empower'.

3. What is the difference between a slave and a servant?

With warm greetings

Romane
Again, I don't think that he has to do everything. Just let people know he exists, directly and unambiguously. I don't know why that's so hard.
 
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Old 09-05-2014, 08:23 PM   #42
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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I don't see why direct and obvious knowledge of God's existence couldn't go hand in hand with free will. The only reason it seems that this would be a problem is because people say it's a problem, without much proof. I can know there's a police force for such, yet choose to disobey the law and suffer the consequences of such.
I have Free Will - To me It is Direct and Obvious God Exists.

Why is it that I see this and others do not, would that not be the same Free Will in Use?

It boils down to the Range that Free Will operates in, that is it takes in the whole scale of the spectrum between the Opposites. When man is born He has the potential to acknowledge the whole scale, but then education starts. Education given by a large range of different opinions with different Frames of Reference.

In the end we mostly have to unlearn to Learn. To find God is mostly not by Book Learning, it is appealing to ones own heart and looking within to discover what we are.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Old 09-05-2014, 08:25 PM   #43
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Again, I don't think that he has to do everything. Just let people know he exists, directly and unambiguously. I don't know why that's so hard.
Dear SmilingSkeptic - God does indeed do that - Baha'u'llahs message is very clear on this matter, many many volumes of Wisdom to read and meditate upon.

What do we do when God lets us Know He Exists, we Kill the Messenger?

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Old 09-05-2014, 08:35 PM   #44
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Good morning SmilingSkeptic

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Originally Posted by SmilingSkeptic View Post
Again, I don't think that he has to do everything. Just let people know he exists, directly and unambiguously. I don't know why that's so hard.
When I say this, note that this is my opinion only. Am actually trying to catch up with some other work, so due to time, no quotes, thus zero authority.

The entire question of certainty of proof is determined by the person looking at the proofs. If the person looking at the proofs chooses not to look at certain aspects, then those proofs are no more than mere words to him.

In this sense, if we use an example from the Christian Revelation. Christ said that when He came again, every eye would see him and that He would come down on a cloud. Thus, many who proclaim their membership in the Faith of Christ will deny any proofs which do not physically have a person riding on a cloud coming down from outer space. If, as the Baha'is say, these prophesies are symbolic, not literal, they will scoff and deride and refuse to accept. Likewise, they forget that Christ also said that He would come as a thief in the night, and even the owner of the house would not know He was there.

How, by any literal means, could a person resolve this most obvious and extremely apparent conflict between the two statement. They will either, as is done, accept the former and quitely disregard the latter, or they will attempt to resolve the question through interminable and pointless word-bashing.

The very fact of the material discrepany between the two quotes is itself proof that these must be resoolved symbolically. But if one is expecting a literal fulfillment of the first prophecy, then this discrepancy becomes not a proof, but a hindrance.

And so, what you need to first of all define - what, to you, would consist of the proof that you desire. Is it literal proof, or will you accept symbolic proof? If it is only literal proof, then the chances of success are very slim. But if you will also accept symbolic proof, be aware that you will need to be very aware of the need to steer clear of superstition or other mumbo-jumbo.

Then, the hard part, for your own position has been demonstrated, if I may be blunt, to rejecting absolutely anything that the Baha'is consider proof, of spurning any "mystical" or "Spiritual" or "religious" evidence. Are you thus one of those who expect the literal proof as the Christians who expect Jesus to physically ride a cloud from outer space to earth, or one who is prepared to look honestly at the non-literal proofs.

Working from memory, Baha'u'llah defines the process of search in the Kitab-i-Iqan in what has become known as the Tablet of the Seeker. He provides a key. That the heart mmust be cleansed of every trace of love and hate, lest that love incline him to error, or that hate repell him away from the truth. If you wish to see this in application in the materialist world that you choose to inhabit, thanks to free will instead of compulsion, you wll see this principle being adhered to strictly and rigourously. In scientific research. It is in exactly the same way that one must investigare religious truth. Thus, no proof is rejected, no proof is accepted, untill it has passed through the process of comparing them through the hypothesis that God neither exists or does not exist. Let the evidence then produce the weight of proof, not any materialistic or any religious theories as people espouse. After all, this is your life, and your investigation, your free will, and your determination whether to accept truth regardless any personal inclinations or likes or dislikes. And if you allow the least shred of love or hate to come between you and what is truth, you will decrease your chances of success.

But that's ok. This is not a try once or fail forever process. The opportunity gets offered over and over again until it is clear and evident that your choices are absolutely and utterly irrevokeable. Then, and only then, will you be left alone.

Personal belief statement. Except in the very rare instance, I do not believe that any individual makes a decision that cannot be revoked before death. And this is why I said to you in a much earlier thread that it is always possible that you, at that time, may be a true belever, while I may become in your place the atheist. Can you tell the future?

Yet even after the tide of breath has ceased forever, how do we know who will be dealt with by God's Justice and who will be accorded His Mercy? Is becoming "toast", as you have said in another thread, so clear and ovbious? Not until after that last breath has been finished, and we know whether God deals with us with His Justice or His Mercy.

With warm greetings

Romane
 
Old 09-05-2014, 09:15 PM   #45
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I would prefer literal proofs, yes, but only because I've exhausted looking at the Abrahamic religions through the "metaphorical" eyes, and even Sikhism, Buddhism, and Taoism, for instance. In the end, it comes down to three types of metaphorical proof: prophecies, holy texts, and mystical experiences. Since I never had mystical experiences, it came down to prophecies that were all too vague to be useful and holy texts that laid on appeals to authority from multiple different self-proclaimed prophets or authors, that seemed, to me, to have little basis in fact (for instance, the claim in the Bible that 500 witnesses saw Jesus rise based on hearsay).

I think that I am a very logically and scientifically oriented person now, after coming from a Catholic faith where I had to accept a LOT of appeals to authority or "mysteries of faith," so I for instance think that the laws of physics as we understand them are valid across the universe because of multiple different and independent observations confirming this to be true. I haven't seen the same with religion- usually adherents one of one religion make some claims using internal logic and claims of infallibility that are easily malleable in case an escape hatch is needed.

Apologies if that seemed blunt, but I don't understand why a deity who actually cares about his creations (as in, non-deistic), would operate the way you claim he does (not getting it right with one prophet, but instead having to send one every thousand years), but would not instead make his existence as obvious as the light of the Sun. (Don't try to appeal to "mysterious ways" or "free will" with me- mysterious reasons for somebody doing something for me equals no reason at all). Just because the Sun exists beyond a doubt and no sane person would claim otherwise does not mean that we have no free will.

Basically, I try to keep my thinking consistent, and since I am a skeptic don't allow for metaphors to get in the way when I investigate a scientific claim and proof for such, I take the same approach to everything in life, including religion.
 
Old 09-05-2014, 10:32 PM   #46
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I would prefer literal proofs
As you are encouraged to do so

If thou wishest the divine knowledge and recognition,... apply thyself to rational and authoritative arguments. For arguments are a guide to the path, and by this the heart will be turned unto the Sun of Truth. And when the heart is turned unto the Sun, then the eye will be opened and will recognize the
Sun through the Sun itself. Then there will be no need of arguments, for the Sun is altogether independent, and absolute independence is in need of nothing, including proofs. — ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

This link will take you to a document that studies Abdul'Baha's Talk on Proving the Existance of God With Science - https://www.bahai-studies.ca/journal...%20Hatcher.pdf

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Old 09-05-2014, 10:44 PM   #47
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As you are encouraged to do so

If thou wishest the divine knowledge and recognition,... apply thyself to rational and authoritative arguments. For arguments are a guide to the path, and by this the heart will be turned unto the Sun of Truth. And when the heart is turned unto the Sun, then the eye will be opened and will recognize the
Sun through the Sun itself. Then there will be no need of arguments, for the Sun is altogether independent, and absolute independence is in need of nothing, including proofs. — ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

This link will take you to a document that studies Abdul'Baha's Talk on Proving the Existance of God With Science - https://www.bahai-studies.ca/journal...%20Hatcher.pdf

God Bless and Regards Tony
In that article, the main thesis (aside from jokey, stretched metaphors such as "agravitist") appears to be that God can be equated to other unseen but knowable forces. The problem is that forces such as gravity, electromagnetism, etc. have never been claimed to be independently sentient. Sure, there may be an unseen creative force behind the universe, although this has not been proven, but there is no way to take a leap to call this force "God." Moreover, there is no force behind say evolution- but multiple forces in tandem, and so how could we even presume that there was one force behind the entire universe? You see what I mean?
 
Old 09-05-2014, 11:06 PM   #48
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Good morning SmilingSkeptic

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Originally Posted by SmilingSkeptic View Post
I would prefer literal proofs, yes, but...
Ah. Ok. Guess there is always tomorrow then. No-one can tell the future.

Maybe Jesus just might physically come down out of outer space riding on a cloud.

With regards and greetings

Romane
 
Old 09-05-2014, 11:34 PM   #49
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Good morning SmilingSkeptic

A little after leaving after the post above, I realised that something I said could so easily be taken the wrong way.

Quote:
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Maybe Jesus just might physically come down out of outer space riding on a cloud.
I'm deadly serious. No joking, nothing else. Just serious. You would wish for physical proof. If it were to be God's Will that He would provide physical proof, this could be just one of a multitude of options and possibilites. But the only eyes that would see it would be your own.

No one can no one tell the future, no one can foretell the Will of God

With warm greetings

Romane
 
Old 09-05-2014, 11:53 PM   #50
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Apologies if that seemed blunt, but I don't understand why a deity who actually cares about his creations (as in, non-deistic), would operate the way you claim he does (not getting it right with one prophet, but instead having to send one every thousand years), but would not instead make his existence as obvious as the light of the Sun. (Don't try to appeal to "mysterious ways" or "free will" with me- mysterious reasons for somebody doing something for me equals no reason at all). Just because the Sun exists beyond a doubt and no sane person would claim otherwise does not mean that we have no free will.

Basically, I try to keep my thinking consistent, and since I am a skeptic don't allow for metaphors to get in the way when I investigate a scientific claim and proof for such, I take the same approach to everything in life, including religion.
Skeptic,
. I am enjoying your persistance, my friend... ;-) , and your thinking consistent, as well...

. As to "Why God doesn't do it my way?" The answer is in the words:

. "He doeth what He willeth."

. This is a major, major ... and fundamental statement which Baha'u'llah addresses to various audiences. God does not do as we wish, you or I. It is an Ich und Du thing.

. We find ourselves going through life first as suckling babes, then crawling babies, staggering and falling down, growing and walking, running and stumbling, "changing" who and what we are at puberty, going through adolescence, becoming parents ourselves, watching our kids go through all of that, and eventually receding into older age, losing our physical strength and stamina, approaching the sunset of our lives.

. All this lies within the individual. Collectively, we have our social behavior in families, groups, tribes, cities, nations, planet. Eventually, maybe planets... Whoa!! That will be a trip if we can't even identify beyond race, nation, religion on our own...

. Why didn't God lay it all on us when we could crawl? Consider what, as Tony says, we do to the Prophets and Messengers. We kill them before they even finish talking, once They've stirred the ashes up a bit. Jesus had much more to say, but was unfortunately crucified for not shutting up. He made the Pharisees look bad. Really Bad...

. Abraham was chased out of town, so was Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. The Bab was imprisoned and killed, as you know, and Baha'u'llah spent forty years in exile with a few very hard years in prison. Why doesn't God just get it all out at once?

. Well, this sounds like a rant. Please forgive me for that. Doesn't the school teacher analogy make sense to you? That all of our teachers attend the same college, but teach at our level? Try explaining particle physics to a two year old while they're throwing food in your face... ;-)

.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 10:31 AM   #51
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Meow, I love your kitten icons, and the cute kitten way you write and sign your posts. It warms my heart every time.


 
Old 09-06-2014, 10:48 AM   #52
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No dear friend most Baha'is study the writings of Baha'u'llah, and expand their knowledge of what He taught, you come upon one quote and then attack it and pull it apart, it is so easy to be negative, and make all kind of disparaging comments. I remember reading that Baha'u'llah said somewhere that if an atom was split man would find a sun within, or something along those lines.

No my friend God's Messenger has knowledge that mankind does not have, but of course you deny God and His messengers. Well dear friend you walk your path and I will walk mine, for surely the day is coming when you and I will know for sure.
Hi Blinkey

Meow went around looking for Baha'u'llah's prediction of splitting the atom and finding a sun within it. This was very promising and interesting and meow came upon multiple Baha'i websites quoting the following words from Baha'u'llah:

"Split the atom’s heart, and lo!
Within it thou wilt find a sun."

It was very fascinating until meow found the source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Seven Valleys And the Four Valleys, Pages 11-17

There is a footnote at the source that says those words are part of a poem composed by a Persian mystic: "Persian mystic poem." These are not Baha'u'llah's words but belong to a Persian mystic!

meow is very very disappointed by this behavior and fake publicity and deception in the many Baha'i websites
 
Old 09-06-2014, 11:27 AM   #53
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Meow went around looking for Baha'u'llah's prediction of splitting the atom and finding a sun within it. This was very promising and interesting and meow came upon multiple Baha'i websites quoting the following words from Baha'u'llah:

"Split the atom’s heart, and lo!
Within it thou wilt find a sun."

..the source that says those words are part of a poem composed by a Persian mystic: "Persian mystic poem." These are not Baha'u'llah's words but belong to a Persian mystic!

meow is very very disappointed by this behavior and fake publicity and deception in the many Baha'i websites
IMO, you're being a bit picky, meow. Whenever Baha'u'llah quotes another's words, He is generally giving them His imprimatur.

Here is a quote of Baha'u'llah:

"Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal." --Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p 69

Care to speculate on what He could possibly be referring to?
 
Old 09-06-2014, 12:59 PM   #54
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A fair analysis

[QUOTE=meow;58412]Hi Blinkey

Meow went around looking for Baha'u'llah's prediction of splitting the atom and finding a sun within it. This was very promising and interesting and meow came upon multiple Baha'i websites quoting the following words from Baha'u'llah:

"Split the atom’s heart, and lo!
Within it thou wilt find a sun."

meow,
. There are vast and numerous volumes which Baha's read and have access to over many decades. When Blinkey (an old Australian from Chile) recalls such a quote used by Baha'u'llah, and his rusty old brain can't remember every detail, it is not out of any intention of deceit. You can either trust me on that or grill him further.

. As you have discovered from your own research, the quote is properly referenced in its context. You will find this in numerous, numerous Writings of Baha'u'llah. Pick up a copy of the Kitab-i-Iqan and examine the many quotes from the Bible and the Quran, as well as other individuals which He quotes from in order to illustrate to the recipient of this book what needs to be said to complete the task.

. May I suggest a careful reading of the Tablet of Hikmat? I would truly be interested in your thoughts after you have pondered it with justice and fairness.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 137-152

.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 01:32 PM   #55
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"Those who have rejected God and firmly cling to Nature as it is in itself are, verily, bereft of knowledge and wisdom. They are truly of them that are far astray. They have failed to attain the lofty summit and have fallen short of the ultimate purpose; therefore their eyes were shut and their thoughts differed, while the leaders among them have believed in God and in His invincible sovereignty. Unto this beareth witness thy Lord, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting."

Well, that makes me feel welcomed. (/sarcasm) It's essentially saying, "Our arguments are obvious" when they're not.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 02:13 PM   #56
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bewilderingly abstruse

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Well, that makes me feel welcomed. (/sarcasm) It's essentially saying, "Our arguments are obvious" when they're not.
Skeptic,
. Set this idea next to:

. “Verily Our Word is abstruse, bewilderingly abstruse.” In another instance, it is said: “Our Cause is sorely trying, highly perplexing; none can bear it except a favorite of heaven, or an inspired Prophet, or he whose faith God hath tested.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93


Also:

. "This is not a Cause which may be made a plaything for your idle fancies, nor is it a field for the foolish and faint of heart. By God, this is the arena of insight and detachment, of vision and upliftment, where none may spur on their chargers save the valiant horsemen of the Merciful, who have severed all attachment to the world of being. These, truly, are they that render God victorious on earth, and are the dawning-places of His sovereign might amidst mankind."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 77-88
.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 02:42 PM   #57
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My dear SmilingSkeptic

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Well, that makes me feel welcomed. (/sarcasm) It's essentially saying, "Our arguments are obvious" when they're not.
It would be so easy to go through the Sacred Texts of all the Faiths and find a multitude of the same. Even a fast scan of only the Baha'i Sacred Texts brings up quote after quote after quote after quote.

But what would be the point? Absolutely none. What would be the value? Absolutely none.

At one stage, I came half way and offered my hand. You made no effort to come half way yourself, my hand was slapped away, and I was asked to let you have the last word. In aquiesence, I bowed to you.

I have not yet begun talking of the weather, for ...

No one can tell the future.

With my warmest greetings

Romane
 
Old 09-06-2014, 03:01 PM   #58
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I just feel as though, throughout my reading of the Baha'i scriptures, even as a seeker, I was taken aback by the heavy critiquing of secular systems of thought, or secular anything, given that even when I was a Catholic (barely) I had atheist friends. I don't know- it seems like all the Abrahamic religions that precede the Baha'i Faith are respected (even if interpreted very differently from what their followers say its like) but atheism, or Shintoism, or Wicca, or what have you, isn't even looked at as equally respected systems of thought to those.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 03:19 PM   #59
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Hi Blinkey

Meow went around looking for Baha'u'llah's prediction of splitting the atom and finding a sun within it. This was very promising and interesting and meow came upon multiple Baha'i websites quoting the following words from Baha'u'llah:

"Split the atom’s heart, and lo!
Within it thou wilt find a sun."

It was very fascinating until meow found the source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Seven Valleys And the Four Valleys, Pages 11-17

There is a footnote at the source that says those words are part of a poem composed by a Persian mystic: "Persian mystic poem." These are not Baha'u'llah's words but belong to a Persian mystic!

meow is very very disappointed by this behavior and fake publicity and deception in the many Baha'i websites
Dear meow

I do not feel there was any deception, why do you think Baha'u'llah included these words?
If you read a little further Baha'u'llah says and I quote "Repeat the gaze: Seest thou a single flaw?" [1] He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest. Baha'u'llah : The Seven Valleys End quote.

The Messenger of God, has knowledge mankind do not have. It is interesting is it not, that this writing predated the discovery, whether you wish to believe or not, is up to you.

I feel Meow only looks for reasons to Try and discredit Baha'u'llah and the faith, but dear friend time will tell, will it not.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 03:42 PM   #60
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I just feel as though, throughout my reading of the Baha'i scriptures, even as a seeker, I was taken aback by the heavy critiquing of secular systems of thought
I had similar feelings about passages like that. Again and again I would see something like "To them that are endowed with understanding, it is clear and manifest that . . ." It feels very insulting. It still puzzles me.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 04:03 PM   #61
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Good morning SmilingSkeptic, Jim

One can see these words as a warning or as a criticism. Which is perceived is entirely in the perception of the viewer.

Jesus said: "Seek and ye shall find." Should we believe this to apply only to matters of religion? The question is not 'shall I find what I seek?' but is more properly 'what is it that I seek?' And the answer to that question again returns to the individual and their perceptions.

If one seeks for criticism, then yes, these words will appear as an insult and a negative. If one seeks for warning, then these words are most loving and kind.

Where lieth the emphasis - the cat sat on the mat, or, the cat sat on the mat. Identical words, but different contexts. Or even the cat sat on the mat - same words but a different context yet again. Consider that your emphasis is determined by your mind-set, and that to change a mind-set can often reveal new truths and enable a greater understanding.

With my warmest greetings

Romane.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 04:14 PM   #62
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it seems like all the Abrahamic religions that precede the Baha'i Faith are respected (even if interpreted very differently from what their followers say its like) but atheism, or Shintoism, or Wicca, or what have you, isn't even looked at as equally respected systems of thought to those.
A few thoughts come to mind:
1. I don't think that all systems of thought are equally deserving of respect. I use my own judgement though, and it has nothing to do with whether the system is mentioned by name in Baha'i writings.
2. I don't presume to know anything about a person's character, personality and capacities, just from the way he labels his ideology.
3. I think a lot of atheists would object to calling atheism "a system of thought."

----

Romane,

A while ago I was searching through the writings for examples of "It is clear to every man of true understanding . . ." and I had an epiphany. In Baha'u'llah's writings, "men of understanding," like all other words and phrases, has a meaning or meanings different from what it might mean in everyday language. Something like saying "people who see the 3D images in these magic eye pictures."

Last edited by jimhabegger; 09-06-2014 at 04:16 PM. Reason: for clarification
 
Old 09-06-2014, 04:35 PM   #63
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Good morning warm friend

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Originally Posted by jimhabegger View Post
A while ago I was searching through the writings for examples of "It is clear to every man of true understanding . . ." and I had an epiphany. In Baha'u'llah's writings, "men of understanding," like all other words and phrases, has a meaning or meanings different from what it might mean in everyday language. Something like saying "people who see the 3D images in these magic eye pictures."
This is an example. It is seeing a thing from a different context. It is like standing before a large mound, and seeing "something", then taking a few steps around that mound, and discovering a different "something" about that same mound. Changing the emphasis from cat, to sat, to mat, so to speak. Increasing one's understanding of the mound.

It is when one stands before the mound and stubbornly insists that what one is currently seeing is all there is to the mound that the difficulty arises. No matter how much the one who has moved a few steps around the mound trys to describe the new vision of this mound, the first will refuse to accept or believe it, for they are unable to see it by refusing to change their own position.

Actually, if I spilt hairs for a very brief moment, I would perhaps say not that you had an epiphany, but had an epiphany moment. A subtle shifting of that emphasis from cat, to sat, to mat

With my very warmest greetings

Romane.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 04:50 PM   #64
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It is when one stands before the mound and stubbornly insists that what one is currently seeing is all there is to the mound that the difficulty arises. No matter how much the one who has moved a few steps around the mound trys to describe the new vision of this mound, the first will refuse to accept or believe it, for they are unable to see it by refusing to change their own position.
Exactly.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 06:23 PM   #65
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True understanding

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhabegger View Post

"It is clear to every man of true understanding . . "
. This reminds me of the Hubble when it was first launched, as compared to after they fixed the problem with the lens. They had a pretty good, but vastly limited "understanding" of what was out there, but it was not a "true" understanding yet.

. We all have "understanding" up to a point. An umpire has true understanding (assuming both eyes are open and he is sober), but only in reference to the pitcher on the mound in relation to him.

. The guy on first base (Who's on first? ;-) has his understanding, as well. And then there is the angry crowd in the bleechers.

. Our understanding is only "true" when it is in agreement with the Manifestation of God. "The Book is the unerring balance..."

.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 07:52 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romane View Post
Good morning SmilingSkeptic, Jim

One can see these words as a warning or as a criticism. Which is perceived is entirely in the perception of the viewer.

Jesus said: "Seek and ye shall find." Should we believe this to apply only to matters of religion? The question is not 'shall I find what I seek?' but is more properly 'what is it that I seek?' And the answer to that question again returns to the individual and their perceptions.

If one seeks for criticism, then yes, these words will appear as an insult and a negative. If one seeks for warning, then these words are most loving and kind.

Where lieth the emphasis - the cat sat on the mat, or, the cat sat on the mat. Identical words, but different contexts. Or even the cat sat on the mat - same words but a different context yet again. Consider that your emphasis is determined by your mind-set, and that to change a mind-set can often reveal new truths and enable a greater understanding.

With my warmest greetings

Romane.

Romane - It reminds of this passage (Bold and color added by poster)

The understanding of His words and the comprehension of the utterances of the Birds of Heaven are in no wise dependent upon human learning. They depend solely upon purity of heart, chastity of soul, and freedom of spirit. This is evidenced by those who, today, though without a single letter of the accepted standards of learning, are occupying the loftiest seats of knowledge; and the garden of their hearts is adorned, through the showers of divine grace, with the roses of wisdom and the tulips of understanding. Well is it with the sincere in heart for their share of the light of a mighty Day!

Bahá’u’lláh The Kitáb-i-Íqán (the Book of Certitude) page 210

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Old 09-06-2014, 08:10 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
Romane - It reminds of this passage (Bold and color added by poster)

The understanding of His words and the comprehension of the utterances of the Birds of Heaven are in no wise dependent upon human learning. They depend solely upon purity of heart, chastity of soul, and freedom of spirit. This is evidenced by those who, today, though without a single letter of the accepted standards of learning, are occupying the loftiest seats of knowledge; and the garden of their hearts is adorned, through the showers of divine grace, with the roses of wisdom and the tulips of understanding. Well is it with the sincere in heart for their share of the light of a mighty Day!

Bahá’u’lláh The Kitáb-i-Íqán (the Book of Certitude) page 210

God Bless and Regards Tony
Thank you, Tony. That is such a beautiful quote, succinct and to the point! It is truly what I know to be true. Baha'i love to you....
 
Old 09-06-2014, 08:51 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by becky View Post
Thank you, Tony. That is such a beautiful quote, succinct and to the point! It is truly what I know to be true. Baha'i love to you....
Thank you becky and Baha'i love to you

Personally I think you can read the writings over and over and not until it connects with your heart do you start to understand the meaning.

An example is Patience - How many times do we read that virtue but we do not really know what it means. God always puts things in our way to teach us this virtue, but it is not until the test hits the heart that you begin to understand as to what it is.

Also why does the prayer for the dead, end with 19 Repetitions of this Virtue!

"...We all, verily, are patient in God." Link to prayer - Prayer for the Dead

I can tell you this is a hard one

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Old 09-06-2014, 09:14 PM   #69
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Counting tree rings

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post

Also why does the prayer for the dead, end with 19 Repetitions of this Virtue!

"...We all, verily, are patient in God." Link to prayer - Prayer for the Dead

I can tell you this is a hard one

God Bless and Regards Tony
Yeah, Tony. God give me patience, but I want it right now!! ;-)

Sometimes in the forest when you look at the big trees, the old ones, or count the tree rings of stumps, the sense of "God's time" and method is present in nature.

Then maybe looking at the strata along where a river has cut deep channels, we are reminded of geologic time - God's time.

Our sense of time changes, its been said, from the immediacy of when we are very young, when a week seems like a month, to when we are old, when weeks pass by like days.

Time is relative to "us" within it, and patience is us being content with the will of God, no matter how long it takes, and that we have no power to speed up the process as "He doeth whatever He willeth"

Very interesting point about "...We all, verily, are patient in God." in the Prayer for the departed.

.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 09:20 PM   #70
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Yes, Romane! ...."patience is us being content with the will of God"....
 
Old 09-07-2014, 12:30 AM   #71
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"Listen then if you have ears to hear" Jesus. It's not just the Baha'i Faith that has this sentiment
 
Old 09-07-2014, 06:54 AM   #72
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Absolutely not...all God's messengers have come to bring us closer to God! God be praised!
 
Old 09-08-2014, 01:28 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh View Post
IMO, you're being a bit picky, meow. Whenever Baha'u'llah quotes another's words, He is generally giving them His imprimatur.

Here is a quote of Baha'u'llah:

"Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal." --Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p 69

Care to speculate on what He could possibly be referring to?
Hi

meow is not being picky. Baha'u'llah had used that section of the poem in a context that had nothing to do with nuclear energy. Baha'u'llah was in no way speaking about nuclear energy or giving a prophecy about it. I am fairly confident the original mystic poet too had no idea about nuclear energy and had composed these words to convey another meaning.

As for the second quote you provided, well meow looked it up:

Quote:
In all matters moderation is desirable. If a thing is carried to excess, it will prove a source of evil. Consider the civilization of the West, how it hath agitated and alarmed the peoples of the world. An infernal engine hath been devised, and hath proved so cruel a weapon of destruction that its like none hath ever witnessed or heard. The purging of such deeply-rooted and overwhelming corruptions cannot be effected unless the peoples of the world unite in pursuit of one common aim and embrace one universal faith. Incline your ears unto the Call of this Wronged One and adhere firmly to the Lesser Peace.
Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal. Great God! We have observed an amazing thing. Lightning or a force similar to it is controlled by an operator and moveth at his command. Immeasurably exalted is the Lord of Power Who hath laid bare that which He purposed through the potency of His weighty and invincible command. Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 57-80
So Baha'u'llah is giving examples of things that the western civilization has created. Using the strange and funny way he describes the other two things "infernal engine" and "lightning", it is very likely that Baha'u'llah is describing what he had heard about CHEMICAL WEAPONS (which existed in his time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_warfare ), and not nuclear weapons.

Nothing extraordinary here.
 
Old 09-08-2014, 01:46 PM   #74
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Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by dale ramsdell View Post
meow,
. There are vast and numerous volumes which Baha's read and have access to over many decades. When Blinkey (an old Australian from Chile) recalls such a quote used by Baha'u'llah, and his rusty old brain can't remember every detail, it is not out of any intention of deceit. You can either trust me on that or grill him further.

.
Someones rusty old brain is not being deceptive. The deception is being done by multiple Baha'i websites that are repeating that out of context line of poetry from a mystic poet and attributing it to Baha'u'llah and nuclear energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Dear meow
The Messenger of God, has knowledge mankind do not have. It is interesting is it not, that this writing predated the discovery, whether you wish to believe or not, is up to you.
No it is not interesting because the context of his words is not about nuclear energy. If meow was to believe the divinity of someone based on these words taken out of context and wishfully interpreted to refer to nuclear energy, meow would have faith in the original mystic poet who composed them not Baha'u'llah who copied them.
 
Old 09-08-2014, 02:01 PM   #75
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Dear meow, of course you will never see, never hear, never believe. You are the same generation that has apposed all of the messengers of God. You would have apposed Moses, Jesus and Muhammad as well. I see clearly that for you nothing but the idols of your own making will suffice you.

I find your posts both amusing and sad, I clearly see that you have no belief in God or His Messengers. So why here in the forum, is it just to amuse yourself, by denying everything?

Well enjoy yourself and good luck.
 
Old 09-08-2014, 02:11 PM   #76
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Surah of the Heights

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Dear meow, of course you will never see, never hear, never believe. You are the same generation that has apposed all of the messengers of God. You would have apposed Moses, Jesus and Muhammad as well. I see clearly that for you nothing but the idols of your own making will suffice you.

I find your posts both amusing and sad, I clearly see that you have no belief in God or His Messengers. So why here in the forum, is it just to amuse yourself, by denying everything?

Well enjoy yourself and good luck.
Bill,
. I think the Surah of the Heights is relevant here:

Translation of Surah Al-Araf - NobleQuran.com

.
 
Old 09-08-2014, 02:22 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dale ramsdell View Post
Bill,
. I think the Surah of the Heights is relevant here:

Translation of Surah Al-Araf - NobleQuran.com

.
36. But those who reject Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and treat them with arrogance, they are the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire, they will abide therein forever.

Oh dear.
 
Old 09-08-2014, 02:46 PM   #78
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verses as proofs

Quote:
Originally Posted by meow View Post
No it is not interesting because the context of his words is not about nuclear energy. If meow was to believe the divinity of someone based on these words....
meow,
. It would appear to me that you have failed to appreciate that the verses of God are His proof, besides which nothing can compare.

. Consider, hath anything else besides the verses been established in the whole Book, as a standard for the recognition of the Manifestations of His Beauty, that the people might cling to, and reject the Manifestations of God? On the contrary, in every instance, He hath threatened with fire those that repudiate and scoff at the verses, as already shown."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 201-220
 
Old 09-08-2014, 02:54 PM   #79
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Raising kittens

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmilingSkeptic View Post
36. But those who reject Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and treat them with arrogance, they are the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire, they will abide therein forever.

Oh dear.
Skeptic,
. When I was growing up, we had lots of cats. Sometimes three litters a year, or maybe more. Always giving away kittens... ;-)

. As it gets cold as hell in the Dakotas in the winter (minus 40 or worse), some of the cats would get distemper. Most would die. This is nature at work.

. My sister used to try to save them by putting butter on their nose, as they would tend to lick it off, even though they were so weak. This would nourish them, and about half would live.

. If we view the communications of God to us as butter, offered to us on our nose, and yet refuse to nourish ourselves, what is the parallel? All that is in nature has a parallel in the spiritual realm, according to Abdul Baha.

. Nobody is sending you to hell. This stuff does not come from us. We have to deal with it the same as you do. I've said a lot of "O dears" myself when reading the Quran, for example. Eventually the reality sunk in that Muhammad came only as a Warner.

. If this stuff is true, and we turn away, there will be a lot of "O dears!" in store for us. If it isn't true, who cares? We're all chewing on the same stuff here.
.
 
Old 09-08-2014, 03:10 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dale ramsdell View Post
Skeptic,
. When I was growing up, we had lots of cats. Sometimes three litters a year, or maybe more. Always giving away kittens... ;-)

. As it gets cold as hell in the Dakotas in the winter (minus 40 or worse), some of the cats would get distemper. Most would die. This is nature at work.

. My sister used to try to save them by putting butter on their nose, as they would tend to lick it off, even though they were so weak. This would nourish them, and about half would live.

. If we view the communications of God to us as butter, offered to us on our nose, and yet refuse to nourish ourselves, what is the parallel? All that is in nature has a parallel in the spiritual realm, according to Abdul Baha.

. Nobody is sending you to hell. This stuff does not come from us. We have to deal with it the same as you do. I've said a lot of "O dears" myself when reading the Quran, for example. Eventually the reality sunk in that Muhammad came only as a Warner.

. If this stuff is true, and we turn away, there will be a lot of "O dears!" in store for us. If it isn't true, who cares? We're all chewing on the same stuff here.
.
Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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