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Old 04-23-2016, 04:19 PM   #1
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Where was the Qiblih during the mininstry of Baha'u'llah ?

Greetings.

I would like to know towards which direction the Baha'is used to pray to when Baha'u'llah was preaching his religion.

Did they pray towards the body of the Bab ? That of Baha'u'llah ? Towards Shiraz ? Did it change over time between the 1850's and the 1890's ?

Thank you.
 
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Old 04-23-2016, 04:31 PM   #2
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Once He had declared His Mission, He became the Qiblih, and remained so after His death.

gnat
 
Old 04-23-2016, 04:36 PM   #3
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OK thanks. So how did it work ?

If Baha'u'llah was the Qiblih, did the people prosternate all around him ?
How did they proceed before the revelation of the mandatory daily prayers ?
What about the people who lived far away from Baha'ullah ? How could they follow his direction if he was to move away ?

Thank you.
 
Old 04-23-2016, 04:38 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
OK thanks. So how did it work ?

If Baha'u'llah was the Qiblih, did the people prosternate all around him ?
How did they proceed before the revelation of the mandatory daily prayers ?
What about the people who lived far away from Baha'ullah ? How could they follow his direction if he was to move away ?

Thank you.
Very good questions. I asked myself the same - especially the last question - before posting my reply. There are limits to a gnat's knowledge.

Best

from

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Old 04-23-2016, 05:12 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
OK thanks. So how did it work ?

If Baha'u'llah was the Qiblih, did the people prosternate all around him ?
How did they proceed before the revelation of the mandatory daily prayers ?
What about the people who lived far away from Baha'ullah ? How could they follow his direction if he was to move away ?

Thank you.
Those Bahais who were aware where Bahaullah was, obviously knew the direction. As for those who were not aware, Bahaullah says, God is forgiving and just.
 
Old 04-23-2016, 05:20 PM   #6
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@IT

Okay.

But actually, I am looking for a precise depiction of a prayer during Baha'u'llah's time.

Let's imagine that we're back in 1870. The devotees who are around Baha'u'llah are about to pray. What happens ?

It's strange, but I am picturing in my mind a scenery like this : some Baha'is vere close to Baha'u'llah pray all around him inside a room, and he is sitting in the middle, eyes closed, conveying their salat towards God.

How accurate is this representation that I have in my mind, please ?

I expect great precision.
 
Old 04-23-2016, 05:29 PM   #7
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@IT

Okay.

But actually, I am looking for a precise depiction of a prayer during Baha'u'llah's time.

Let's imagine that we're back in 1870. The devotees who are around Baha'u'llah are about to pray. What happens ?

It's strange, but I am picturing in my mind a scenery like this : some Baha'is vere close to Baha'u'llah pray all around him inside a room, and he is sitting in the middle, eyes closed, conveying their salat towards God.

How accurate is this representation that I have in my mind, please ?

I expect great precision.

A few points.

The Laws of Bahaullah was not revealed right in the begining of His ministry. For example the most Holy Book was revealed in the last years of His ministry.

Note that, Bahai Obligatory Prayers are prescribed to be read from Morning till night. There was no person who were with Bahaullah all the time from Morning till night. So, i suppose they could find a time when they are not with Bahaullah.
 
Old 04-23-2016, 05:38 PM   #8
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The Laws of Bahaullah was not revealed right in the begining of His ministry. For example the most Holy Book was revealed in the last years of His ministry.
Yes, I am aware of that point.

Quote:
So, i suppose
Mmmmmm....

Aren't they historical documents that make mention of what was the daily life like when living around Baha'u'llah ?

I have the impression that Baha'u'llah could have developped very spiritual private relationships with his followers, and that private prayers at his sides would have existed in that time.

I want documents that could confirm this intuition, answer the questions I asked hereabove, and that depicts a typical spiritual day spent around Baha'u'llah.

Thank you, "Investigator" (I insist on the Investigate part my good Sir ! )
 
Old 04-23-2016, 05:48 PM   #9
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Goa,

During the ministry of Baha'u'llah, he was the Qiblih as revealed in the Bayan. Until his Ascension, when he moved, the Qiblih moved. I do not have specific references depicting Baha'is specifically praying toward variable locations corresponding to the location of Baha'u'llah. However, in every place that Baha'u'llah was that spot became a place of pilgrimage that Baha'is streamed to as much as possible and at whatever cost or risk. It is not a proof, but a reasonable supposition, therefore, that this literal point of adoration (qiblih) was indeed also the direction to which they would turn in prayer.

Cheers
 
Old 04-23-2016, 05:59 PM   #10
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@Fadl : OK, thanks.

But overall, it remains quite vague.

By the way, did Baha'u'llah himself have a direction of prayer ?
 
Old 04-23-2016, 06:21 PM   #11
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Yes, I am aware of that point.



Mmmmmm....

Aren't they historical documents that make mention of what was the daily life like when living around Baha'u'llah ?

I have the impression that Baha'u'llah could have developped very spiritual private relationships with his followers, and that private prayers at his sides would have existed in that time.

I want documents that could confirm this intuition, answer the questions I asked hereabove, and that depicts a typical spiritual day spent around Baha'u'llah.

Thank you, "Investigator" (I insist on the Investigate part my good Sir ! )
Off course there are narratives and memories of Baha'u'llah. If you search for lets say 'memories of Bahaullah' you can find some online.
 
Old 04-23-2016, 06:24 PM   #12
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@Fadl : OK, thanks.

But overall, it remains quite vague.

By the way, did Baha'u'llah himself have a direction of prayer ?
To me, this question is like asking, which direction God prays every day! In our view, there was no God, except Baha'u'llah, alone, in the prison.
 
Old 04-23-2016, 06:37 PM   #13
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To me, this question is like asking, which direction God prays every day! In our view, there was no God, except Baha'u'llah, alone, in the prison.
Yes, but contrary to God - glorifed be his name - Baha'u'llah possessed a human body. The human body is a 3 dimension object fitting in the framework of space-time continuum. It consists in general in four limbs, one belly, one chest, and an amovible head that can pivot into several directions.

Considering this, my question starts to make sense. If Baha'u'llah possess a human body, did he oriented it towards a direction in particular as he was praying ? Just asking.

Thank you !

(The author of this post would like to apologize for the high amount of sarcasm that was left inside of it.)
 
Old 04-23-2016, 09:24 PM   #14
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@Fadl : OK, thanks.

But overall, it remains quite vague.

By the way, did Baha'u'llah himself have a direction of prayer ?
Let us think of it this way. When a Muslim is Mecca there are 360 degrees surrounding the ka'abah that are the direction for the prayer depending on where they stand relative to the ka'abah and facing it from a direction located from outside. But if it were possible to enter the ka'abah itself, then from what direction should such a one face? It is an impossible question.

Baha'u'llah is the living temple, and dwells within the sacred precinct (ka'abah) itself. What direction should he face in prayer? The question makes no sense.

Cheers
 
Old 04-23-2016, 11:03 PM   #15
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This sort of question is difficult for me to answer, and I would supposed for other Baha'is as well, because these questions are not particularly pertinent to most of our spiritual journeys (though they may be for some!). From what I have seen and read, Baha'i teachings indicate several themes that would imply this matter is not of immediate importance. For instance, I understand that any place can be sacred, that congregational prayer is a hindrance to proper worship, and that we should not revere individual humans as superior to others or allow ourselves to be subjugated. While we do have laws for how we pray during obligatory prayer, those laws are observed in private, and we know that God will give us room to figure out how to perform those prayers effectively. When it comes to prayer, we are very private and intimate.

Considering these factors, I am not surprised that few, if any, Baha'is historians at the time of Baha'u'llah documented the prayer habits of other Baha'is. I am also not surprised that few Baha'is since that time have preserved and propagated that information, and that it is no longer common knowledge among even the more studious of the believers.

If one wished to investigate this matter, the best sources for this information I can think of would be the personal journals of Baha'u'llah's disciples, such as Taherzedeh and Nabil. Tahezerdeh's notes are in Persian, as are Nabil's. The originals are now in Haifa, but Tahezerdeh's family in the Chicago area has scans of his original notes in their possession (I have a friend who visited and saw them). The Revelation of Baha'u'llah book series includes much information from these treasured documents, but that series is focused on events more than daily habits. Nabil's narrative is mostly untranslated, but some scholars have been given access for their own research of the Faith. The best bet though would be works by E.G. Browne. He spent years researching the Babi and Baha'i communities and documenting their developments as an outside observer and orientalist. It seems more likely, at least in my estimation, that Browne would be interested in the general habits of Baha'is during prayer than the actual Baha'is would be, and more likely to document them.

Best of luck in your hunt!
 
Old 04-24-2016, 04:17 AM   #16
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@ Fadl

Hello !

Quote:
Baha'u'llah is the living temple, and dwells within the sacred precinct (ka'abah) itself. What direction should he face in prayer? The question makes no sense.

Shall I translate the "This question makes no sense." part into a "According to the historical sources, Baha'u'llah didn't face any direction in particular while praying."

Still, was he facing a direction of prayer, or was he not, I am astonished that so far, no one delivered me one single information regarding Baha'u'llah's prayer habit based on historical sources. It's as if he never existed.

@Neal

Hello !

Quote:
Considering these factors, I am not surprised that few, if any, Baha'is historians at the time of Baha'u'llah documented the prayer habits of other Baha'is.
I am very surprized myself, because it's not so much about collecting historical information than about relating personnal memories of very important spiritual moments in one's life. It's about a human experience.

I am a bit frustrated that the Baha'is seem not to know about much about the sirat of Baha'u'llah. The life of Muhammad, who lived 1400+ years ago, is far more documented than that of Baha'u'llah, who passed away in 1892.

Are there somewhere sources or testimonies of people who prayed by the side of Baha'u'llah ?

Thank you.

PS : I suond a bit agressive, but I am a bit astonished of the complete lack of precision that I get as answers. I do appreciate your contribution people, I really do, but I need more than conjectures. I need informations based on sources.
 
Old 04-24-2016, 05:51 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
@ Fadl

Hello !




Shall I translate the "This question makes no sense." part into a "According to the historical sources, Baha'u'llah didn't face any direction in particular while praying."

Still, was he facing a direction of prayer, or was he not, I am astonished that so far, no one delivered me one single information regarding Baha'u'llah's prayer habit based on historical sources. It's as if he never existed.

@Neal

Hello !



I am very surprized myself, because it's not so much about collecting historical information than about relating personnal memories of very important spiritual moments in one's life. It's about a human experience.

I am a bit frustrated that the Baha'is seem not to know about much about the sirat of Baha'u'llah. The life of Muhammad, who lived 1400+ years ago, is far more documented than that of Baha'u'llah, who passed away in 1892.

Are there somewhere sources or testimonies of people who prayed by the side of Baha'u'llah ?

Thank you.

PS : I suond a bit agressive, but I am a bit astonished of the complete lack of precision that I get as answers. I do appreciate your contribution people, I really do, but I need more than conjectures. I need informations based on sources.
I think you are somewhat familiar with Baha'i theology.

What is a prayer?

It is how we speak to God to express our love to God and communicate with Him. For that, we face toward Baha'u'llah, who is the Manifestation of God.
The God that we are talking about, is the Spirit of Baha.
If Baha wants to communicate with His own Spirit, does He need to face any particular direction?

If you were to comunicate with yourself, do you face toward someone else and talk to them?

Other prophets such as Jesus or Muhammad, if they prayed toward a particular direction, that was only to teach their followers how to pray. Indeed, i dont even think, the Manifestation even need to pray, or even prayed. They only wanted to teach their followers how to talk with spirit of God, who is no other than Christ. And Christ, the Spirit of God is not only Jesus, but everytime, God manifest Himself, He is that same spirit.


Many of the Baha'i Prayers, starts with 'He is God'.

According to Abdulbaha, 'He is God', means Baha'u'llah.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 04-24-2016 at 05:54 AM.
 
Old 04-24-2016, 06:24 AM   #18
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Hello IT !

Quote:
I think you are somewhat familiar with Baha'i theology.
I am bit acquainted with it, my Good Sir.

Quote:
If Baha wants to communicate with His own Spirit, does He need to face any particular direction?
No, he does not. But this statement does not quench my curiousity.

Quote:
Indeed, i dont even think, the Manifestation even need to pray, or even prayed.
IMO, I'd say on the contrary that they need to be in a perpetual state of prayer. They are "in God", so their consciousness is constantly submitted to the will of God.

Now, once again that is interesting, but I am in need of acurate answers based on historical sources. I am craving for testimonies making depiction of how was the daily life like by the side of Baha'u'llah, and I'm particularly interested in the spiritual practices of Baha'u'llah and his closest followers. I'm looking for this sirat of Baha'u'llah.

Could you help me find sources, please ?

Thanks !

GoaForce
 
Old 04-24-2016, 06:51 AM   #19
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Hello IT !



I am bit acquainted with it, my Good Sir.



No, he does not. But this statement does not quench my curiousity.



IMO, I'd say on the contrary that they need to be in a perpetual state of prayer. They are "in God", so their consciousness is constantly submitted to the will of God.

Now, once again that is interesting, but I am in need of acurate answers based on historical sources. I am craving for testimonies making depiction of how was the daily life like by the side of Baha'u'llah, and I'm particularly interested in the spiritual practices of Baha'u'llah and his closest followers. I'm looking for this sirat of Baha'u'llah.

Could you help me find sources, please ?

Thanks !

GoaForce
Regarding Historical sources showing how Bahaullah prayed, i never encountered any. Most likely there is not.

Note that, in Islam, there is ptactice of group prayer. In Bahai Faith, this practice is abrogated. Perhaps this is why, in islam you find histories showing how Muhammad and His followers prayed together. In Bahai Faih, such practice is abrogated, because it had become a way to show off in Muslim community.
Meaning, the muslims showed of how good believers they are, by appearing in group prayers...
This is why, such practice was abrogated and you do not see such things in baha'i history. (It is said abdulbaha in palestine, some times went to mosques and lead muslim prayer, but that has another wisdom, and it is another story).

So, i have to say, you are after something, that does not exist in Bahai history, simply because this is a new faith with its own Laws and Ordinances.
Bahai faith, mostly emphasizes on attributes of God, and that, if we become detached from Worldly desires, and have a pure heart, God attributes are also manifested in us.
There are a lot of prayers too, but Bahais say these prayers when they are alone. That is why you don't find such historical accounts that Bahais were praying to gether. Though, if you attend some baha'i gatherings, they are specifically devotional gatherings.


This statement of Baha'u'llah might be also of interest:

"In the early days of Our arrival in this land, when We discerned the signs of impending events, We decided, ere they happened, to retire. We betook Ourselves to the wilderness, and there, separated and alone, led for two years a life of complete
solitude. From Our eyes there rained tears of anguish, and in Our bleeding heart there surged an ocean of agonizing pain. Many a night We had no food for sustenance, and many a day Our body found no rest. By Him Who hath My being between His hands! notwithstanding these showers of afflictions and unceasing calamities, Our soul was wrapt in blissful joy, and Our whole being evinced an ineffable gladness. For in Our solitude We were unaware of the harm or benefit, the health or ailment, of any soul. Alone, We communed with Our spirit, oblivious of the world and all that is therein. "

It is interesting that Baha'u'llah says, when He was alone, He communed with His Spirit. Why He does not say, when He was alone, He communed with God? What does it mean He communed with His Spirit?
If we ponder on this, it may open some doors to truth for us.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 04-24-2016 at 07:29 AM.
 
Old 04-24-2016, 08:22 AM   #20
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Regarding Historical sources showing how Bahaullah prayed, i never encountered any. Most likely there is not.
Mmmmmm..... That's a shame. But I wonder if the UHJ possess some documents, or if the family of Baha'u'llah has orally passed down some lore of that kind. My guess is that, with great efforts, it's still possible to answer this question.

Quote:
Note that, in Islam, there is ptactice of group prayer. In Bahai Faith, this practice is abrogated. Perhaps this is why, in islam you find histories showing how Muhammad and His followers prayed together. In Bahai Faih, such practice is abrogated, because it had become a way to show off in Muslim community.
There must be a second element explaining that situation, it is that ancient Arabia consisted in oral cultures very able to pass own informations orally, while Baha'u'llah appeared in a litterate culture, where all that is not written down is hardly remembered.

Some Aboriginal Tribes have kept memories of great geological catastrophies that happened in Australia more than 15.000 years ago. But I cannot remember the name of my own great grandparents, or even of many of my relatives. This is the world we live in.

Quote:
t is said abdulbaha in palestine, some times went to mosques and lead muslim prayer, but that has another wisdom, and it is another story).
That's interesting. Also, I remember having read somewhere that the Baha'i folk in Akka, during the old years of Baha'u'llah, were doing the Ramadan every year, as well as some Muslim rituals. That's an information that I'd like to have either confirmed or refuted.

Quote:
So, i have to say, you are after something, that does not exist in Bahai history, simply because this is a new faith with its own Laws and Ordinances.
Well, I'm afraid there is here a wall of silence that is too high for me to climb. But my guts keep telling me that Baha'u'llah prayed with his folk in a state of great communion.

Quote:
Bahai faith, mostly emphasizes on attributes of God, and that, if we become detached from Worldly desires, and have a pure heart, God attributes are also manifested in us.
Precisely. Baha'u'llah msut have had, and transmitted, some techniques regarding prayer/spirituality. The disponible scriptures display a certain number of theoretical teachings, but what about their "physical" reality (respiration, alimentation, etc.), or at least, some going back to Baha'u'llah (there are some bu Abdul Baha however).

Quote:
It is interesting that Baha'u'llah says, when He was alone, He communed with His Spirit. Why He does not say, when He was alone, He communed with God? What does it mean He communed with His Spirit?
Very interesting. Could it be the "Spirit of Truth" mentionned in the Gospel, out of which stems the Paracletic reality ?

Thanks.
 
Old 04-24-2016, 09:52 AM   #21
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Mmmmmm..... That's a shame. But I wonder if the UHJ possess some documents, or if the family of Baha'u'llah has orally passed down some lore of that kind. My guess is that, with great efforts, it's still possible to answer this question.



There must be a second element explaining that situation, it is that ancient Arabia consisted in oral cultures very able to pass own informations orally, while Baha'u'llah appeared in a litterate culture, where all that is not written down is hardly remembered.

Some Aboriginal Tribes have kept memories of great geological catastrophies that happened in Australia more than 15.000 years ago. But I cannot remember the name of my own great grandparents, or even of many of my relatives. This is the world we live in.



That's interesting. Also, I remember having read somewhere that the Baha'i folk in Akka, during the old years of Baha'u'llah, were doing the Ramadan every year, as well as some Muslim rituals. That's an information that I'd like to have either confirmed or refuted.



Well, I'm afraid there is here a wall of silence that is too high for me to climb. But my guts keep telling me that Baha'u'llah prayed with his folk in a state of great communion.



Precisely. Baha'u'llah msut have had, and transmitted, some techniques regarding prayer/spirituality. The disponible scriptures display a certain number of theoretical teachings, but what about their "physical" reality (respiration, alimentation, etc.), or at least, some going back to Baha'u'llah (there are some bu Abdul Baha however).



Very interesting. Could it be the "Spirit of Truth" mentionned in the Gospel, out of which stems the Paracletic reality ?

Thanks.
i think you should read 'God passes By'. Read page 119 for example, then you can say your summary of that story.
 
Old 04-24-2016, 10:11 AM   #22
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i think you should read 'God passes By'. Read page 119 for example, then you can say your summary of that story.
Thanks for the advice. Yes, I shall read the official litterature, it has a lot to offer.
 
Old 04-24-2016, 11:07 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post


The life of Muhammad, who lived 1400+ years ago, is far more documented than that of Baha'u'llah, who passed away in 1892.

Are there somewhere sources or testimonies of people who prayed by the side of Baha'u'llah ?

Thank you.

PS : I suond a bit agressive, but I am a bit astonished of the complete lack of precision that I get as answers. I do appreciate your contribution people, I really do, but I need more than conjectures. I need informations based on sources.
Friend,

When you say Muhammad is more documented, it may be true, but if you are looking at historical records, Baha'u'llah is much better documented.

Although the documents regarding Muhammad are numerous indeed I think a closer look reveals that among them the historical record is largely lacking and there is no strong argument for accepting most of them other than as a matter of faith perhaps. Of the sources you have mentioned which did you mean specifically and on what basis do you accept them as authentic?

Cheers
 
Old 04-24-2016, 11:26 AM   #24
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Of the sources you have mentioned which did you mean specifically and on what basis do you accept them as authentic?
On the basis that, by reading the hadith, you can feel all the weight of Muhammad's character. You can feel his smile, his sense of humour, his calm, in short, his aura. If some reading can make me know Baha'u'llah better - much better - in the framework of his everyday life, the way the hadith do about Muhammad, I want to read them.
 
Old 04-24-2016, 12:36 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
On the basis that, by reading the hadith, you can feel all the weight of Muhammad's character. You can feel his smile, his sense of humour, his calm, in short, his aura. If some reading can make me know Baha'u'llah better - much better - in the framework of his everyday life, the way the hadith do about Muhammad, I want to read them.
On what basis do you accept these hadith as conveying the persona of Muhammad? They attribute a great deal to him, and while the aura, smile, etc., may appeal to you, how do you know it is authentic? Perhaps we do not actually know so much about Muhammad as we imagine.

Some read the hadith and point to the inhumanity, the barbarity, the intolerance, the cruelty (relative to their own contemporary sense of humanity and decency). How do we authenticate the pleasant aura and smile yet reject the parts which don't please us, when both accounts are found in the same sources?

FYI, I do not accept any hadith as being "authentic" or accurate about the Muhammad in any way at all, but I am curious how you might resolve these things for yourself.

Cheers

Last edited by Fadl; 04-24-2016 at 12:42 PM.
 
Old 04-24-2016, 12:51 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
On the basis that, by reading the hadith, you can feel all the weight of Muhammad's character. You can feel his smile, his sense of humour, his calm, in short, his aura. If some reading can make me know Baha'u'llah better - much better - in the framework of his everyday life, the way the hadith do about Muhammad, I want to read them.
I suggest you count the number of history books for early islam, and count the number of books for early Bahai years and compare. Count number of pages and make a comparison.

Also, Bahaullah ministry was 40 years, but it was after 19 years, public declaration begun.

So, for about 20 years, Bahaullah was known to be the Manifestation of God.
I think, most of the Writings of Bahaullah was revealed during last 20 years.
Bahaullah has wrote more than 17000 works.

20 years is 7200 days. It means on the averge more than 2 works per day was revealed. That tells me, a great part of Bahaullahs life after His declaration was spent on Writings.
His Writings by far, make Him known to us. Bahaullah was not like other people. Who spend their time on having fun. He had a mission. His mission was implemented through revealing Tablets. By these Tablets He created a new people.
 
Old 04-24-2016, 02:22 PM   #27
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To me it all sounds a bit like a topic once debated in mediaeval times, "How many angels can dance on the point of a needle?" Impossible to answer and of no relevance
 
Old 05-04-2016, 07:53 PM   #28
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Joined: May 2016
From: USA
Posts: 25
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Last edited by Ali12134; 06-16-2016 at 02:31 PM.
 
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