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Old 03-14-2016, 04:06 PM   #1
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Why does one have to be a saint?

I read the Quote of the Day "It is easy to approach the Kingdom of Heaven, but hard to stand firm and staunch within it, for the tests are rigorous, and heavy to bear." Yes indeed, and my life bears witness to that, Somehow, I feel like that foam on the surface of the ocean of the Faith that Shoghi Effendi describes, but I just refuse to be left on the shore.

I meet so many people who really are searching for the Faith and its values. Why is it so difficult to gather a team of Bahá'ís, able to reach out and welcome people of all kinds who sincerely search?

Honestly, I really love people, and really wish to share somthing of the Faith with them. But it's so difficult to do it in practice. And I'm definitely not a saint.

But I feel there is too much talk and so little action. So much love talk and so few loving deeds.

gnat

Last edited by gnat; 03-14-2016 at 04:15 PM.
 
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:19 PM   #2
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I read the Quote of the Day "It is easy to approach the Kingdom of Heaven, but hard to stand firm and staunch within it, for the tests are rigorous, and heavy to bear." Yes indeed, and my life bears witness to that, Somehow, I feel like that foam on the surface of the ocean of the Faith that Shoghi Effendi describes, but I just refuse to be left on the shore.

I meet so many people who really are searching for the Faith and its values. Why is it so difficult to gather a team of Bahá'ís, able to reach out and welcome people of all kinds who sincerely search?

Honestly, I really love people, and really wish to share somthing of the Faith with them. But it's so difficult to do it in practice. And I'm definitely not a saint.

But I feel there is too much talk and so little action. So much love talk and so few loving deeds.

gnat
Gnat, one doesn't need to be a saint.
 
Old 03-14-2016, 06:28 PM   #3
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Gnat, one doesn't need to be a saint.
But the demands are terrible. We are supposed to be perfect. I'm not perfect, and don't even want to. But still I see so many persons who really are searching and longing, and it's so difficult, because most Bahá'ís I know seem to live in a little world of their own, kind of unrelated to what goes on around them.

gnat
 
Old 03-14-2016, 07:56 PM   #4
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It's like being Kermit and Rawlph in the Muppet Movie. Can't live with it, can't live without it, and hope that something better comes along... Yet as time goes by, I don't see anything better. I see more and more my inability to live up to the standard I set out. when I first began. Then I look back, and see what progress I've made. I think, I should feel proud- until I remember, that pride precedes the fall. When is it ever enough? Is there such a thing?

I cannot count the blessings the Faith has granted me. Nor can I weigh the missed opportunities I've had in this life, either to share the Faith or eschew it. I see my sins in hindsight more often now, and sometimes that hurts all the more. But they wouldn't have registered as sins if I hadn't grown to see them that way. I sympathize more with others now, yet their ignorance keeps them distant from me. I see line where they see gray, and I see gray after they see black and white. I envy them as much as I pity.

There are saints. We just aren't always among them. God's grace falls to each of us in our own measure. No matter how we each strive, we each have a destiny that limits what we get in this life. So many die and never hear of Bahá'u'lláh. Many more die with the wrong idea of Him in their hearts. Some of them are saints despite it all. They had that path before them. We do not. Our grace is an abundance of knowledge. What we do with it is our test.
 
Old 03-15-2016, 02:44 AM   #5
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Greetings Gnat,

Try not to dwell on your shortcomings, especially during the fast. Shortcomings are in the mind and the more you dwell on them, the more your own subconscious mind will torment you. Relax and simply be kind to yourself.

I understand that 'Abdu'l-Bahá once explained that no believer was ever expected to be a saint. If this is the case you have your answer. Be not a saint!

As you have expressed an interest in teaching you might like to watch the following presentation. Here Tom Price shares how 'Abdu'l-Bahá taught people. It really is an insightful presentation. Unfortunately, as you are well aware, a number of younger Bahá'ís simply have little real teaching experience in the field today. This is why deputised teaching is so important, but this can take many creative forms. In the time of the Guardian he would sometimes give envelopes to people with money in them and just instruct the recipient to use it to teach the Cause. The person who took my declaration card once received such an envelope from the Guardian. It contained £100 (Sterling). A sizeable sum at that time. So in a manner of speaking I became a Bahá'í through deputisation. Many others have too and it is still done today. If you have an interest in promoting a specific teaching activity, like in a particular town or through a specific event, just take the next step forward and be confident enough to build and fund a teaching team for yourself. One of the most exciting ones I am aware of involved taking a Viking ship down the main river in Russia.

Earth

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fB9OuShqqXs

Last edited by Earth; 03-15-2016 at 02:51 AM.
 
Old 03-15-2016, 03:19 PM   #6
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All my life, I have believed that teaching basically is to lead one's life trying to let the Faith be an inspiration that shines through. I really feel uncomfortable with "projects" involving extraordinary, spectacular events. Vikings in Russia - hmm, as a descendant of those very people who actually did those journeys a thousand years ago, I'm at a total loss as to the connection to the Faith. Then one could just as well build Cinderella's Castle as a teaching project.

No, I believe in meeting people in one's normal life - meeting them because one has a common direction, a common urge. But maybe that's a bad idea. Maybe normal life in today's world is so disconnected from the Faith that such teaching is rather pointless. Growth figures in Europe seem to hint at that.

But there is one teaching project I believe in: to actually build the Temple of each country.

Best, from a lost

gnat
 
Old 03-15-2016, 05:36 PM   #7
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All my life, I have believed that teaching basically is to lead one's life trying to let the Faith be an inspiration that shines through. I really feel uncomfortable with "projects" involving extraordinary, spectacular events. Vikings in Russia - hmm, as a descendant of those very people who actually did those journeys a thousand years ago, I'm at a total loss as to the connection to the Faith. Then one could just as well build Cinderella's Castle as a teaching project.

No, I believe in meeting people in one's normal life - meeting them because one has a common direction, a common urge. But maybe that's a bad idea. Maybe normal life in today's world is so disconnected from the Faith that such teaching is rather pointless. Growth figures in Europe seem to hint at that.

But there is one teaching project I believe in: to actually build the Temple of each country.

Best, from a lost

gnat
Brother, you are far from lost but you are facing challenges
 
Old 03-15-2016, 07:02 PM   #8
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But there is one teaching project I believe in: to actually build the Temple of each country.

Best, from a lost gnat
The capacity must be built before a Temple can be considered.

It would be interesting to know how the Universal House of Justice decides when an area has that capacity.

Could it be Huquq contributions?

Regards Tony
 
Old 03-16-2016, 01:38 PM   #9
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I've often thought that the day upon which each country has its house of worship will be a glorious day. I long for the day when the British Isles will be blessed in this way (sigh)
 
Old 03-16-2016, 02:57 PM   #10
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The way I see it, there is some kind of psychological/socioogical/cultural limit to growth. You can tell people about the Faith and make them attracted to it. But then they meet the Real World Bahá'í community. They realize that the Bahá'ís in general are rather ordinary people, with rather ordinary thoughts, very far from the super race that one could imagine after reading the Scriptures. Then, a sense of disappointment often takes over. I have seen it so many times - people come and go, at best staying on as passive members, but usually leaving after a short while.

It's quite amazing to see how the same people tend to stay on for decades, whereas the newcomers come and go.

Judging from 'Abdu'l-Bahá's words, the way to teach is to awaken the love for Bahá'u'lláh in one's contacts. Well, love is a very tender thing. It seems like it's very difficult for this love to survive the meeting with the reality of community life.

And concerning temples: building a temple is a huge undertaking, but there are several steps in the building process. First, one has to have the land. Many national communities have temple grounds. But then one can start thinking about the Temple. It is not so expensive to make some initial plans, to work out a concept for the Temple. Then one might find architects willing to make a sketch for a future temple. That doesn't have to cost so much either. Making detailed blueprints costs real money. And the really costly part is the erection of a Temple. But who said that the first Temple in each country has to be a monumental building that can be compared to Taj Mahal?

Acctually, I believe that temples in general could be rather modest at first, like the Cambodian Temple. Second, things start to happen only when you take the first steps. If we just sit and wait, nothing will happen - that's for sure. If we just sit waiting for the Community to suddenly receive funds in the order of tens of millions of dollars before we take the first steps, I think we could wait for eternity.

gnat

Last edited by gnat; 03-16-2016 at 03:09 PM.
 
Old 03-16-2016, 03:04 PM   #11
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The capacity must be built before a Temple can be considered.

It would be interesting to know how the Universal House of Justice decides when an area has that capacity.

Could it be Huquq contributions?

Regards Tony
And who said that we have to sit waiting for the House to decide? Any national community can just decide that it wants to start preparations for the erection of a Temple. Remember how the first Temple was built: there was a will, and there were funds.

It seems to me that it has become established practice among us to wait for the House to decide. But how do things start? The Ruhi Books actually were an initiative within one single national community. Then they were adopted by the House.

So, to cut it short. I think it's simple: capacity = willpower. If a community really wants to build a temple, it will have the capacity.

gnat

Last edited by gnat; 03-16-2016 at 03:16 PM.
 
Old 03-16-2016, 03:50 PM   #12
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And who said that we have to sit waiting for the House to decide? Any national community can just decide that it wants to start preparations for the erection of a Temple. Remember how the first Temple was built: there was a will, and there were funds.

It seems to me that it has become established practice among us to wait for the House to decide. But how do things start? The Ruhi Books actually were an initiative within one single national community. Then they were adopted by the House.

So, to cut it short. I think it's simple: capacity = willpower. If a community really wants to build a temple, it will have the capacity.

gnat
Yes it has to be more than one person sitting on the mountain praying that it will be

But maybe it is already there when those prayers are dedicated to it!

Regards Tony.
 
Old 03-16-2016, 04:09 PM   #13
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You are quite right. Seems like tomorrow is a good day for another prayer session on the temple grounds. I live nearby.

gnat
 
Old 03-16-2016, 05:03 PM   #14
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Gnat,

May I ask you sincerely, why is it you believe that teaching is about growth? Or perhaps I should better ask you to clarify, whose growth do you believe teaching is for?
 
Old 03-16-2016, 05:12 PM   #15
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Gnat,

May I ask you sincerely, why is it you believe that teaching is about growth? Or perhaps I should better ask you to clarify, whose growth do you believe teaching is for?
Growth in wisdom and in insight. But also definitely about growth in numbers. If not, I have entirely misunderstood 'Abdu'-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ.

gnat

Last edited by gnat; 03-16-2016 at 05:32 PM.
 
Old 03-16-2016, 05:30 PM   #16
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Growth in wisdom and in insight. But also definitely about growth in numbers. If not, I have entirely misunderstood 'Abdu'-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi.

gnat
If I may humbly suggest, while teaching is often an engine for growth in numbers, and an instrument that God may use for this purpose, the reason for teaching is for your personal growth and to express your love for Baha'u'llah. If you teach, it may well be that your efforts will result in others joining the faith, but that should never be your reason for teaching, in my opinion.
 
Old 03-17-2016, 12:12 AM   #17
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If I may humbly suggest, while teaching is often an engine for growth in numbers, and an instrument that God may use for this purpose, the reason for teaching is for your personal growth and to express your love for Baha'u'llah. If you teach, it may well be that your efforts will result in others joining the faith, but that should never be your reason for teaching, in my opinion.
I'm not officially a Baha'i, so consider that as I state my opinions.

I've read a lot of material by Adbu'l-Baha and also some recently recommended works by Shoghi Effendi. Among them are letters and other writings meant for people in North America. It seems that teaching in order to increase the numbers of active Baha'is was actually mandated once upon a time. People were encouraged to go to different locales, both within their countries and outside of them, with the purpose of finding new Baha'is.

"Proselytizing" seems like a dirty word to most Baha'is. I know it's technically forbidden, but where does one cross the line between teaching and proselytizing? Isn't it the duty of Baha'is to make themselves known to others so that new members eventually enter the Faith? Isn't teaching the faith almost synonymous with personal growth, at least if you're doing it right?

I for one have never felt pressured by Baha'is to enroll, though I've encountered members offline who talked about the Faith with considerable enthusiasm. Maybe it's because there are so few Baha'is in my area, but it amazes me that I've never seen an advertisement for the Baha'i Faith. Not on television, not on billboards and not even online. It was pure chance that I happened to stumble on a book about Baha'i years ago. (Though some might say God gave me a nudge in the right direction.) If it weren't for that book, it might have been years before I stumbled upon anything to do with the Faith, if ever. Perhaps I'm just a neglected demographic, but it seems like Baha'is could use a better marketing strategy.

Hmm...this post is getting long and I'm not sure where I'm going with this. To get back on the thread's topic: I like the fact that Baha'i actually demands something of you in order to get closer to God. What you do in life matters. It may be nearly impossible to live up to the image of a saint, but at least you get credit for trying. Too often in Christian circles I've heard of the "grace of God" and the futility of works to get closer to Him. After a while, it just comes across as spiritual laziness. It's refreshing to hear that we can make a positive impact on the world through our own initiative. The short obligatory prayer may remind one daily of one's powerlessness and poverty when compared to God, but that doesn't mean we don't have any strength or resources at our disposal! If anything, the average person's spiritual potential goes mostly untapped throughout their life. There's nothing futile about it, really, as any effort is better than none.

But again, that's just my opinion.

tl;dr --
Isn't teaching the faith done in large part to gain members? (I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.) Also, I like the Baha'i notion that ones works here on earth actually amount to something, rather than being a futile effort in the face of God's grace.
 
Old 03-17-2016, 07:31 AM   #18
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Not all saints are entirely alike.

Sainthood does not at all imply uniformity of character, lifestyle, views or demeanour.

It is about cultivating certain essential qualities, values and convictions that orient one's will towards a higher mode of being in relation to our Creator and other people:

Quote:
Abba Poeman said that Abba John said that saints are like a group of trees, each bearing different fruit, but watered from the same source. The practices of one saint differ from those of another, but it is the same Spirit that works in all of them

The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (fourth century AD Christian ascetics): Alphabetical Collection p. 95
 
Old 03-17-2016, 07:35 AM   #19
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Teaching the faith is a duty enjoined on Bahai's but teaching does not mean enrolling or converting, and when we think of it in such terms, we are at risk of proselytizing which is forbidden.

When we teach, I think it is helpful to remember that what we are doing is an expression of love for Baha'u'llah. When we love, it is difficult to be silent about our love. However, it is only God who "converts" or admits anyone to this faith and really teaching is therefore much more mystical than intellectual. Think about how many individuals came in direct contact with the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, and how many recognized them and embraced the cause through them without even a word being uttered. Consider also how many who came in contact with them and even after meeting and having questions answered and coming in direct contact with the presence of God on earth, yet became unmoved and never entered the faith. When I think about this, it really underscores what the writings tell us, that it is the manifestations alone who have the power to transmute the hearts of men, and that it is God alone who converts or admits anyone into the faith. Therefore, let us teach without thinking about the numbers or the conversions. We are asked to teach, and the conversion of hearts is between God and the individual soul.

Cheers
 
Old 03-17-2016, 09:08 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Fadl View Post
Teaching the faith is a duty enjoined on Bahai's but teaching does not mean enrolling or converting, and when we think of it in such terms, we are at risk of proselytizing which is forbidden.

When we teach, I think it is helpful to remember that what we are doing is an expression of love for Baha'u'llah. When we love, it is difficult to be silent about our love. However, it is only God who "converts" or admits anyone to this faith and really teaching is therefore much more mystical than intellectual. Think about how many individuals came in direct contact with the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, and how many recognized them and embraced the cause through them without even a word being uttered. Consider also how many who came in contact with them and even after meeting and having questions answered and coming in direct contact with the presence of God on earth, yet became unmoved and never entered the faith. When I think about this, it really underscores what the writings tell us, that it is the manifestations alone who have the power to transmute the hearts of men, and that it is God alone who converts or admits anyone into the faith. Therefore, let us teach without thinking about the numbers or the conversions. We are asked to teach, and the conversion of hearts is between God and the individual soul.

Cheers

This answers many questions for me, Fadl, thank you. I saw Baha'u'llah's name and knew my search was over. That was 29 years ago. I do worry about those who do not see, but that truly is between them and God. When your love burns so fiercely within you, it can be painful when those around you, especially those you love so dearly, are not ignited.
Loving regards,
Becky

Last edited by becky; 06-08-2016 at 09:21 PM. Reason: Typo
 
Old 03-20-2016, 11:49 AM   #21
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Stop looking at others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat View Post
I read the Quote of the Day "It is easy to approach the Kingdom of Heaven, but hard to stand firm and staunch within it, for the tests are rigorous, and heavy to bear." Yes indeed, and my life bears witness to that, Somehow, I feel like that foam on the surface of the ocean of the Faith that Shoghi Effendi describes, but I just refuse to be left on the shore.

I meet so many people who really are searching for the Faith and its values. Why is it so difficult to gather a team of Bahá'ís, able to reach out and welcome people of all kinds who sincerely search?

Honestly, I really love people, and really wish to share somthing of the Faith with them. But it's so difficult to do it in practice. And I'm definitely not a saint.

But I feel there is too much talk and so little action. So much love talk and so few loving deeds.

gnat
Dear Gnat stop looking at what others are doing for as the master says we will always be disillusioned. If we see a need fill it ourselves. I am so weak physically I pray for the end each day to releive my overburdened wife and yes for the trust of a better life.
I look down the street to see if a loving friend is coming to visit like the Master did, but see no one. Sadness and tears my closest friend except for the love of my dear wife, my memory faiding, but still trusting in Baha'u'llah.
bill
 
Old 03-20-2016, 12:17 PM   #22
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Dear Gnat stop looking at what others are doing for as the master says we will always be disillusioned. If we see a need fill it ourselves. I am so weak physically I pray for the end each day to releive my overburdened wife and yes for the trust of a better life.
I look down the street to see if a loving friend is coming to visit like the Master did, but see no one. Sadness and tears my closest friend except for the love of my dear wife, my memory faiding, but still trusting in Baha'u'llah.
bill
Dear Bill,

So that's how it is. Nothing to say right now. The only thing I get to think of is that I see human greatness everywhere now, but it takes so much to show people what the source of that is.

Gnat
 
Old 03-20-2016, 04:29 PM   #23
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I look down the street to see if a loving friend is coming to visit like the Master did, but see no one. Sadness and tears my closest friend except for the love of my dear wife, my memory faiding, but still trusting in Baha'u'llah.
bill
Dear Bill,

I'm afraid that I'm far too far from you to come and visit you. Said a prayer for someone else to come.

gnat
 
Old 03-20-2016, 04:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Dear Gnat stop looking at what others are doing for as the master says we will always be disillusioned. If we see a need fill it ourselves. I am so weak physically I pray for the end each day to releive my overburdened wife and yes for the trust of a better life.
I look down the street to see if a loving friend is coming to visit like the Master did, but see no one. Sadness and tears my closest friend except for the love of my dear wife, my memory faiding, but still trusting in Baha'u'llah.
bill
Dear Bill, We will all meet, until then remember this one;

"O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain".

(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, CLIII, pp. 328-329)

Gos bless.and regards Tony
 
Old 06-08-2016, 09:28 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Fadl View Post
Teaching the faith is a duty enjoined on Bahai's but teaching does not mean enrolling or converting, and when we think of it in such terms, we are at risk of proselytizing which is forbidden.

When we teach, I think it is helpful to remember that what we are doing is an expression of love for Baha'u'llah. When we love, it is difficult to be silent about our love. However, it is only God who "converts" or admits anyone to this faith and really teaching is therefore much more mystical than intellectual. Think about how many individuals came in direct contact with the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, and how many recognized them and embraced the cause through them without even a word being uttered. Consider also how many who came in contact with them and even after meeting and having questions answered and coming in direct contact with the presence of God on earth, yet became unmoved and never entered the faith. When I think about this, it really underscores what the writings tell us, that it is the manifestations alone who have the power to transmute the hearts of men, and that it is God alone who converts or admits anyone into the faith. Therefore, let us teach without thinking about the numbers or the conversions. We are asked to teach, and the conversion of hearts is between God and the individual soul.

Cheers
I had to find this thread again, so I could reread your uplifting post. And I thank you again, Fadl. I needed to be reminded.

Loving regards,
Becky
 
Old 06-09-2016, 09:03 AM   #26
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such wonderful advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadl View Post
Teaching the faith is a duty enjoined on Bahai's but teaching does not mean enrolling or converting, and when we think of it in such terms, we are at risk of proselytizing which is forbidden.

When we teach, I think it is helpful to remember that what we are doing is an expression of love for Baha'u'llah. When we love, it is difficult to be silent about our love. However, it is only God who "converts" or admits anyone to this faith and really teaching is therefore much more mystical than intellectual. Think about how many individuals came in direct contact with the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, and how many recognized them and embraced the cause through them without even a word being uttered. Consider also how many who came in contact with them and even after meeting and having questions answered and coming in direct contact with the presence of God on earth, yet became unmoved and never entered the faith. When I think about this, it really underscores what the writings tell us, that it is the manifestations alone who have the power to transmute the hearts of men, and that it is God alone who converts or admits anyone into the faith. Therefore, let us teach without thinking about the numbers or the conversions. We are asked to teach, and the conversion of hearts is between God and the individual soul.

Cheers
Dear Fadl, such wonderful advice dear friend.

And dear Tony your advice always of benefit, My life has been so full of sorrows, and the promise for patience so heart soothing.

Thank you both dear friends Fadl and Tony
 
Old 06-09-2016, 01:17 PM   #27
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Greetings Gnat,

Try not to dwell on your shortcomings, especially during the fast. Shortcomings are in the mind and the more you dwell on them, the more your own subconscious mind will torment you. Relax and simply be kind to yourself.

I understand that 'Abdu'l-Bahá once explained that no believer was ever expected to be a saint. If this is the case you have your answer. Be not a saint!

As you have expressed an interest in teaching you might like to watch the following presentation. Here Tom Price shares how 'Abdu'l-Bahá taught people. It really is an insightful presentation. Unfortunately, as you are well aware, a number of younger Bahá'ís simply have little real teaching experience in the field today. This is why deputised teaching is so important, but this can take many creative forms. In the time of the Guardian he would sometimes give envelopes to people with money in them and just instruct the recipient to use it to teach the Cause. The person who took my declaration card once received such an envelope from the Guardian. It contained £100 (Sterling). A sizeable sum at that time. So in a manner of speaking I became a Bahá'í through deputisation. Many others have too and it is still done today. If you have an interest in promoting a specific teaching activity, like in a particular town or through a specific event, just take the next step forward and be confident enough to build and fund a teaching team for yourself. One of the most exciting ones I am aware of involved taking a Viking ship down the main river in Russia.

Earth

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fB9OuShqqXs
Earth, did you know the Guardian?
 
Old 06-13-2016, 03:50 AM   #28
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Love of Bahaullah

Reading this post as a new member the lesson seems to be love for Bahaullah. Without that, teaching can only be an empty husk.
 
Old 06-13-2016, 11:47 AM   #29
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fionvarin View Post
Reading this post as a new member the lesson seems to be love for Bahaullah. Without that, teaching can only be an empty husk.
Good to see you here welcome

Yes this is a good point. To love we immerse ourselves of His Word, thus the foundation of Love then can also be used with the Wisdom.

Regards Tony
 
Old 06-21-2016, 07:24 AM   #30
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Typo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadl View Post
Teaching the faith is a duty enjoined on Bahai's but teaching does not mean enrolling or converting, and when we think of it in such terms, we are at risk of proselytizing which is forbidden.

When we teach, I think it is helpful to remember that what we are doing is an expression of love for Baha'u'llah. When we love, it is difficult to be silent about our love. However, it is only God who "converts" or admits anyone to this faith and really teaching is therefore much more mystical than intellectual. Think about how many individuals came in direct contact with the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, and how many recognized them and embraced the cause through them without even a word being uttered. Consider also how many who came in contact with them and even after meeting and having questions answered and coming in direct contact with the presence of God on earth, yet became unmoved and never entered the faith. When I think about this, it really underscores what the writings tell us, that it is the manifestations alone who have the power to transmute the hearts of men, and that it is God alone who converts or admits anyone into the faith. Therefore, let us teach without thinking about the numbers or the conversions. We are asked to teach, and the conversion of hearts is between God and the individual soul.
Cheers

I must confess that I wrote down all your remarks on this subject, Fadl, because I felt they revealed such depth of understanding in the area of teaching, and I thought it just might be good to share at our in depth study of the current 5 year plan this past weekend. I had already shared it with a friend previously as this is a subject that I struggle with being married to a non Baha'i. Anyway, after I shared it, because sure enough it didn't take long for our group to get to this point, it had a profound effect on others too, and one asked where I had found this, what book? And I replied, it is the understanding of an individual Baha'i. Sometimes, especially in teaching, we don't know what effect we have, if any, so I wanted to be sure you knew what a profound and positive effect you had on not only me.

Loving regards,
Becky
 
Old 06-21-2016, 11:24 AM   #31
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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From: Normanton Far North Queensland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by becky View Post
I must confess that I wrote down all your remarks on this subject, Fadl, because I felt they revealed such depth of understanding in the area of teaching, and I thought it just might be good to share at our in depth study of the current 5 year plan this past weekend. I had already shared it with a friend previously as this is a subject that I struggle with being married to a non Baha'i. Anyway, after I shared it, because sure enough it didn't take long for our group to get to this point, it had a profound effect on others too, and one asked where I had found this, what book? And I replied, it is the understanding of an individual Baha'i. Sometimes, especially in teaching, we don't know what effect we have, if any, so I wanted to be sure you knew what a profound and positive effect you had on not only me.

Loving regards,
Becky
Great Share Becky, Love the Love.

Regards Tony
 
Old 06-21-2016, 12:06 PM   #32
Lives in hope
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by becky View Post
I must confess that I wrote down all your remarks on this subject, Fadl, because I felt they revealed such depth of understanding in the area of teaching, and I thought it just might be good to share at our in depth study of the current 5 year plan this past weekend. I had already shared it with a friend previously as this is a subject that I struggle with being married to a non Baha'i. Anyway, after I shared it, because sure enough it didn't take long for our group to get to this point, it had a profound effect on others too, and one asked where I had found this, what book? And I replied, it is the understanding of an individual Baha'i. Sometimes, especially in teaching, we don't know what effect we have, if any, so I wanted to be sure you knew what a profound and positive effect you had on not only me.

Loving regards,
Becky
Please Becky can you provide a link to current plan?
 
Old 06-21-2016, 06:33 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by AidanK View Post
Please Becky can you provide a link to current plan?

Dear Aidan,
I got my copy from a friend, and I just chatted with her, and she got it from someone else, so....we are tracking the link down. I am hoping tomorrow I will have it to post. The only info on my copy was for the Baha'i World Center....address, number, email, no link.
Loving regards,
Becky
 
Old 06-21-2016, 07:18 PM   #34
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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This link is to all messages.

The 29th December 2015 would be the one you are after. You can download in the format you choose.

Selected Messages of the Universal House of Justice | Bahá

Regards Tony
 
Old 06-22-2016, 05:22 AM   #35
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From: colorado/summer-Oklahoma/winter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
This link is to all messages.

The 29th December 2015 would be the one you are after. You can download in the format you choose.

Selected Messages of the Universal House of Justice | Bahá

Regards Tony
Thanks Tony. We studied the one for the counselors...20 pages and it was very interesting the way the past 5 yr plan and this 5 yr plan are intertwined. I couldn't get it to download, but I only have a tablet, not a computer, so that could be why. And it is the 29th of December one!

Loving regards,
Becky
 
Old 06-22-2016, 01:36 PM   #36
Lives in hope
 
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Joined: Dec 2015
From: N Ireland
Posts: 343
Thanks guys, have been able to download a pdf
 
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