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Old 07-27-2017, 07:34 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
Three days and no response.

If I'm not welcome here then it's fine.

If my opinion is without worth then let me know and I'll stop trying to peacably communicate.
I am sure you are welcome here... I am new here and I have noticed that people do not always respond like they do on some other forums I have been on, but that痴 okay. That does not mean people do not read what you write or gain something from it...

I really liked what you wrote. Reading things like what you wrote helps me. However, I got a sense that you are much closer to God than I am, so I did not know what to say to you, without sounding like a hypocrite.

I became a Baha段 because of the teachings of Baha置値lah, not for God. I was never close to God. The way I sometimes feel about God is not very good, but I am struggling. I have just spent over three years talking to nonbelievers on forums day and night and this has taken a toll on my already weak faith. I came here to try to restore and build my faith, and share with others what I have learned about the Baha段 Faith.
 
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:05 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
I am sure you are welcome here... I am new here and I have noticed that people do not always respond like they do on some other forums I have been on, but that痴 okay. That does not mean people do not read what you write or gain something from it...

I really liked what you wrote. Reading things like what you wrote helps me. However, I got a sense that you are much closer to God than I am, so I did not know what to say to you, without sounding like a hypocrite.

I became a Baha段 because of the teachings of Baha置値lah, not for God. I was never close to God. The way I sometimes feel about God is not very good, but I am struggling. I have just spent over three years talking to nonbelievers on forums day and night and this has taken a toll on my already weak faith. I came here to try to restore and build my faith, and share with others what I have learned about the Baha段 Faith.
Thank you for the kind words.

I frequent atheist sights; less lately.

I was actually an adamant atheist for a very long time.

Add any words you ever feel with sincerity and humility.

If others judge you wrongly forbid then they will have to answer for it; not you.

I'm a hypocrite too. Learn from our mistakes is what we hav3 to at least attempt.

Your words show your conscience.

You are closer to GOD than you think friend.

No that literal interpretation of the OT was the falling of the Jew; that and pride.

Seemed pertinent as you mentioned atheist sights and they gravitate towards the literal interpretation of the OT.

They like to say GOD would have abolished slavery if just; tell me; how do you enslave any if you love all?

The two commands of the Christ wholly negate slavery and entitlement if any cared to see.


peace friend;

thank you.
 
Old 07-27-2017, 08:38 PM   #43
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I was actually an adamant atheist for a very long time.
I never would have guessed that. I would like to hear about that if you want to share it. I especially wonder how and why they become believers. I only knew one atheist who became a believer.

Your words show your conscience.
I do have a conscience, and a great sense of responsibility towards this Cause.

You are closer to GOD than you think friend.

Thanks. I don稚 know how I can tell. But of course only God knows.

Peace
 
Old 07-28-2017, 12:29 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
I was actually an adamant atheist for a very long time.
I never would have guessed that. I would like to hear about that if you want to share it. I especially wonder how and why they become believers. I only knew one atheist who became a believer.

Your words show your conscience.
I do have a conscience, and a great sense of responsibility towards this Cause.

You are closer to GOD than you think friend.

Thanks. I don稚 know how I can tell. But of course only God knows.

Peace
I can pm a copy of my attempted recounting of the things that took place at and around the time of my being given faith if you like.

Just let me know.

Your sense of responsibility is partly the significance and purpose of life. To come to indifference as opposed to what can be known and acted upon through the selfless conscience is basically having a seared conscience and placing ones own wants above what one knows to be good for all and the right thing to do.

A great mass of people have been lead astray by the hands of man; this too is the cause of much atheism.

peace
 
Old 07-28-2017, 05:28 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
Three days and no response.

If I'm not welcome here then it's fine.

If my opinion is without worth then let me know and I'll stop trying to peacably communicate.


peace
Or, just a theory, maybe no one could understand your original post.

I can't really follow what you wrote well enough to comment on it. Perhaps, could you try rephrasing what it is you are trying to say in less flowery prose??
 
Old 07-28-2017, 07:37 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Or, just a theory, maybe no one could understand your original post.

I can't really follow what you wrote well enough to comment on it. Perhaps, could you try rephrasing what it is you are trying to say in less flowery prose??
Yet you commented in admitted ignorance and assumption anyway....

You'll get it eventually. If you focus on removing bias and pride/greed.

No flowery prose there friend.

peace
 
Old 07-28-2017, 08:15 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
Yet you commented in admitted ignorance and assumption anyway....

You'll get it eventually. If you focus on removing bias and pride/greed.

No flowery prose there friend.

peace


C'mon now, this is just silly.

You make a comment. I don't understand, so I say nothing.

You complain about me saying nothing.

I simply state I did not understand it, I ask if you can elaborate.

You complain that I commented without understanding it.

Clearly there is nothing I can do to win this.

So, silly person, do you want me to comment on your statement or not?? It seems you are upset with me either way. So what is it you want of me??

All I asked for was clarification.

Honestly I think if you look past your own pride you might realize that not all people can easily read what you wrote, and you might deign to try to explain or elaborate your statement to us lowly mortals.

Would it help if I explained what I found confusing??

Quote:
Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
Upon the 8th day there will be the will of GOD alone.
I don't get what you mean with this or why you open with it. There's a lot of potential things a person could mean by saying "Upon the 8th day", it's symbolism I have seen used for several different things in different places, so I don't know what it is you mean by the statement. Can you clarify??

Quote:
Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
We are afforded free will now in this life by the leave and sovereign Will of GOD for our sake and to HIS glory in this life, at this time and always.

We surely give thanks for the messengers and prophets of GOD, and all who have and do sincerely seek to do the Will of GOD alone, not for their sake alone, but for the sake of all creation, by the sovereign Will of GOD.
Sure, but I don't understand how you're relating this to the Problem of Evil, the topic of this thread. Again, I can see some ways it can be related to the problem of evil (attaining detachment from everything but God leads to contentment and liberation from the problem of evil), but I don't specifically see anything in your post that tells me what you, personally, mean by this statement, or how you believe it relates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
Surely the Christ of GOD does all, gives all, and shows all for the sake of each, regarding himself as lowly; humble in all things and at all times.
Agreed here but I don't know what you mean by it or how you impart relevance to this statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
Conjecture about ones individual will while in the abode of the Lord GOD seems to be just that; I would like to be shown to be wrong though; either with our sacred writings or the proving of the conscience.
All I can tell is that you are saying you think everything is conjecture but would like to be proved wrong. But I don't have any indication of why you think it is pure conjecture or what things apart from "our sacred writings" to show otherwise. I also am not sure your precise religious background, so how can I know which sacred writings to provide or which ones you would accept as proof??

Quote:
Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
There is evil;
I disagree here. I say that evil is just conjecture unless you can prove it true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
and will not affect the Will of GOD to any extent whatsoever and is wholly opposed to the ever giving, long suffering merciful perceptions of GOD.
Agreed here.

Now that my confusion is clearly explained, perhaps you will do the kindness to repay with explanation, Inshallah.

Otherwise I fear I just don't get what it is you want. Complaints when no response is given and complaints when a response is given... so what is the desired reaction??

Last edited by Walrus; 07-28-2017 at 08:31 AM.
 
Old 07-28-2017, 10:18 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post

Many times, I wish I could be an atheist, but I cannot not believe God exists; I just am not too fond of God and His “Plan.” Whenever I see a dead animal on the road, I cry out to God; but I also wonder how God could allow that animal to get hit that way.... So many things I wonder why God allows.... I sure hope God forgives me for my “bad attitude.” I listen to a Christian radio station called Air1 and on there is a new song called O God Forgive Us.

How apropos!
Dear Trailblazer

Your attitude is not bad. It is the attitude of every honest human being in search of meaning. Millions ohave had the same question (Why does evil exist?) before us, and millions of us will continue to ask it, as long as we love life.

If the baby who sees her placenta being detached from her body and discarded in the trash could talk, she would cry out something like "Why are you taking from me that red, round, nice thing that kept me alive and growing? That was my world! Give it back to me!" And the baby would be right and would be wrong.

The placenta was certainly a precious thing, but it must go away when its mission is fulfilled.

The whole religious experience is about enjoying and embracing this life, but then detaching and letting it go. It is about swimming graciously in the river, not upstream, but downstream, with the flow.

Many people who face a terminal disease, no matter if they believe in an afterlife or not, end up saying "I'm ready" few days our hours before dying.
For those who do not believe in an afterlife, the "I'm ready" means "I'm ready for the eternal state of unconciousness". For believers, it means "I'm ready for the eternal state of conciousness". In both cases, though, it means "I am ready to be detached".

Steve Jobs said that knowing he was facing death from pancreatic cancer was the best possible gift of his life, because he could finally understand what things mattered the most, and he could focus on them and rejoice on them.

Death is a "messenger of joy", as Bah'u'll疉 says, not only for people facing terminal diseases. It is a messenger of joy for all of us, who live in apparent wealth and health, because it reminds us of our transient state and the uniqueness of our human experience.

Let's keep living each day of our little, short, unique lives, under the Sun of Truth. Under that Sun, they shine so beautifully!

Last edited by camachoe; 07-28-2017 at 10:29 AM.
 
Old 07-28-2017, 09:11 PM   #49
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I can pm a copy of my attempted recounting of the things that took place at and around the time of my being given faith if you like.

Just let me know.

Yes, I am very interested. Please send me a pm.

Your sense of responsibility is partly the significance and purpose of life. To come to indifference as opposed to what can be known and acted upon through the selfless conscience is basically having a seared conscience and placing ones own wants above what one knows to be good for all and the right thing to do.
I understand and I agree.

A great mass of people have been lead astray by the hands of man; this too is the cause of much atheism.
Yes, this is what happens when man listens to man and not to God.

Also, I think the cause of much atheism is simply an inability to understand that life has a purpose beyond the physical and God is not subject to objective proofs.

peace
 
Old 07-28-2017, 09:29 PM   #50
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Dear camachoe,

Your attitude is not bad. It is the attitude of every honest human being in search of meaning. Millions have had the same question (Why does evil exist?) before us, and millions of us will continue to ask it, as long as we love life.

Thank you. Do you think we will finally find out after we cross over? It won稚 really matter anymore though. Of course I know why people suffer given that is addressed in the Baha段 Revelation, it is the animals I wonder about.

The whole religious experience is about enjoying and embracing this life, but then detaching and letting it go. It is about swimming graciously in the river, not upstream, but downstream, with the flow.

I am not too fond of the whole afterlife thing, as I posted to you... The whole idea of living forever is very unsettling, to say the least... As a long time student of psychology, I think I know what I feel that way; my life on this earthly plane of existence has not been a pleasant experience, so I am sure I project this life onto the next, all the while knowing it is wholly different.... but is it? Other than not having a physical body and material things to contend with, and time and place, how different will it be? We will still have our consciousness, and it will be heightened, so if the mind state was not good here I see no reason to think it will be good there either...

How it look at it is that if someone has a psychological problem such as depression or anxiety, that through no fault of their own, thus it is not the result of good or bad moral actions. As such, that would not be a mind state that carries over to the next world. Only if someone has a spiritual problem will it carry over; so in spite of psychological problems people can still work on their spiritual growth although it is more difficult to do with these impediments.

適now thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Gleanings From the Writings of Bah癇u値l疉, p. 153-154

As I see it, hindrances such as depression and anxiety are not a spiritual problem because they are not blameworthy. They are an infirmity of the mind so they do not affect the soul and the spiritual state of a person. They do impede spiritual growth though, because spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, as Abdu値-Baha explained:

的n this world we are influenced by two sentiments, Joy and Pain.

Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.


There is no human being untouched by these two influences; but all the sorrow and the grief that exist come from the world of matter葉he spiritual world bestows only the joy!

If we suffer it is the outcome of material things, and all the trials and troubles come from this world of illusion.
Abdu値-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 109-110

Whereas that is generally true, that material things are the cause of our unhappiness, a person can also suffer from illnesses, be they physical, mental or emotional. If they affect the body or mind, they can become impediments between the body and the soul and prevent a person from fully experiencing their spiritual nature.

Death is a "messenger of joy", as Bah'u'll疉 says, not only for people facing terminal diseases. It is a messenger of joy for all of us, who live in apparent wealth and health, because it reminds us of our transient state and the uniqueness of our human experience.

A hundred dollar question is whether death will be a messenger of joy for everyone. If it is the same for everyone, why even be a believer? I wonder what happens to those who hate God and those who do not believe in God. What about those who are still attached to the material world when they die? We are not privy to that information, only to what lies on the other side for 田onfident believers.

適now thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: 天erily, we are God痴, and to Him shall we return. The mysteries of man痴 physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God容xalted be His glory葉o hasten their end.

Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man痴 earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.
Gleanings From the Writings of Bah癇u値l疉, pp. 345-346


Let's keep living each day of our little, short, unique lives, under the Sun of Truth. Under that Sun, they shine so beautifully!

True, as Baha段s we are so blessed. There is nothing we could ever do to give adequate thanks to God for having been of the few who have recognized Baha置値lah.
 
Old 07-28-2017, 11:21 PM   #51
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" Wrath: Anger born from attachment to disadvantages and slights one has received in life.
Envy: Attachment to the belongings of others.
Greed: Attachment to one's own belongings.
Sloth: Attachment to one's comfort in apathy.
Lust: Attachment to sexual pleasure.
Gluttony: Attachment to other pleasures.
Pride: Attachment to one's own self-image."
That is completely truth
 
Old 07-29-2017, 06:34 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
Whereas that is generally true, that material things are the cause of our unhappiness, a person can also suffer from illnesses, be they physical, mental or emotional. If they affect the body or mind, they can become impediments between the body and the soul and prevent a person from fully experiencing their spiritual nature.
I agree with you.
If materials ailments couldn't affect our spirit, we would not mind fighting disease, pain, hunger, poverty, etc.

A child that has food to eat is in a better position to develop his spirit that a child who has no food.
That's why we care about helping him to get educated, become independent, work and earn his food.
That's why, if he has a disease in his bowels that causes malabsorption of nutrients, we try to heal that disease. We care about the matter because it matters

As I say, God wouldn't have bothered to give us a body and a material planet if they were useless for the development of our soul.

When Abdul'Bah says that "the material world" is a source of sorrow and grief He does not mean that a waterfall, a diamond or a clitoris are a source of grief and sorrow.

The "material world" he refers to is rather the state of mind that refuses to see the Ultimate Reality as the Source of all that exists, the Fabric that keeps everything connected... the All-Pervasive, Loving God. The "material world" Abdul Bah refers to, is the "world of illusion". The illusions that things are independent, static and eternal when they are in fact interdependent, changing and transient.
The "spiritual world" is, on the other hand, the state of mind that deals with everything within the Oneness of God. An spiritual man does not reject matter... on the contrary he honors matter by putting it in its right place: submitting it to God.

Living in the "material world" (the world of the illusion of separateness) is Hell. Living in the spiritual world (the world of the truth of Oneness) is Heaven. This is why Abdul Bah says that the person who lives spiritually is already experiencing eternal life.

Last edited by camachoe; 07-29-2017 at 06:58 PM.
 
Old 07-29-2017, 06:55 PM   #53
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I am not too fond of the whole afterlife thing, as I posted to you... The whole idea of living forever is very unsettling, to say the least...
I agree
To be honest, I have found (and I can be wrong of course)that the afterlife is a marginal teaching of the Central Figures. They basically state there is an afterlife, it will be great and we cannot even imagine how much. That's it... and that's enough. End of story.

The most important teachings, tough, are about how to live day by day in this life. This is the core of 90% of Baha'is Teachings, I suspect.

Take the Twelve Principles. Tell me how many refer to the afterlife, and how many about life in this time and place:


1. The Oneness of Humanity

2. Independent, Unfettered Investigation of the Truth

3. Religion is Progressive, All having a Common Foundation

4. Religion must be the Source of Unity

5. True Science and True Religion must Correspond

6. The Equality of Men and Women

7. Removal of all Prejudice

8. Universal Peace upheld by a Spiritual World Government

9. Universal Compulsary Education

10. A Spiritual Solution to the Economic Problem

11. A Universal Auxiliary Language

12. Universal House of Justice with the Davidic King

Last edited by camachoe; 07-29-2017 at 07:01 PM.
 
Old 07-30-2017, 06:45 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer
I am not too fond of the whole afterlife thing, as I posted to you... The whole idea of living forever is very unsettling, to say the least...


I agree
Thanks... I am glad I am not the only one who feels this way. ;-)

To be honest, I have found (and I can be wrong of course) that the afterlife is a marginal teaching of the Central Figures. They basically state there is an afterlife, it will be great and we cannot even imagine how much. That's it... and that's enough. End of story.
Thanks. I agree with that. The afterlife is not something we are supposed to focus on.

The most important teachings, tough, are about how to live day by day in this life. This is the core of 90% of Baha'is Teachings, I suspect.
Yes, you are right about this. I was originally attracted to the Faith because of the teachings.

Take the Twelve Principles. Tell me how many refer to the afterlife, and how many about life in this time and place:

1. The Oneness of Humanity

2. Independent, Unfettered Investigation of the Truth

3. Religion is Progressive, All having a Common Foundation

4. Religion must be the Source of Unity

5. True Science and True Religion must Correspond

6. The Equality of Men and Women

7. Removal of all Prejudice

8. Universal Peace upheld by a Spiritual World Government

9. Universal Compulsary Education

10. A Spiritual Solution to the Economic Problem

11. A Universal Auxiliary Language

12. Universal House of Justice with the Davidic King


That is true... the Twelve Principles are the most important...

I wonder what website you got this list from? Did you know that there is a website that claims to be the official site of the UHJ that is not official at all? This looks like the list they posted. I think it is a Covenant-breaker website as someone on Planet Baha段 told me that. Principle 12. is an indication that the website is suspicious.
 
Old 07-31-2017, 07:14 AM   #55
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I wonder what website you got this list from? Did you know that there is a website that claims to be the official site of the UHJ that is not official at all? This looks like the list they posted. I think it is a Covenant-breaker website as someone on Planet Baha段 told me that. Principle 12. is an indication that the website is suspicious.
Thanks for making me aware of this! I will avoid that website.
CB Alarm! CB Alarm!
 
Old 07-31-2017, 09:31 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by camachoe View Post
To be honest, I have found (and I can be wrong of course)that the afterlife is a marginal teaching of the Central Figures. They basically state there is an afterlife, it will be great and we cannot even imagine how much. That's it... and that's enough. End of story.
There is a Hadith I heard about various people who came to Muhammad and asked him what they would receive in reward for following God's Law.

First came a man who loved women and pleasure. Muhammad told him the afterlife would be filled with women for him in reward.

Then came a man who loved money and wealth. Muhammad told him that the afterlife would be filled with treasure for his reward.

Muhammad's companions then asked him why he gave two conflicting answers in his description of Heaven, to which Muhammad stated that Heaven was truly beyond mortal understanding, and so he could only communicate what it was like in rough approximation: comparing it to the things the two men who came to him loved most in the world was the best he could truly do in explaining what the afterlife was like.

Now bear in mind this is Hadith, and they tend to have questionable authenticity, so don't take the above as a statement of true, absolute fact describing an event that 100% definitively happened, but it is nevertheless a story and an anecdote that explains why the descriptions we have are so very limited and widely varying among various messengers.
 
Old 07-31-2017, 10:50 AM   #57
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Beatiful hadith, Walrus!

By the way, I wonder if the concept of "everlasting" or "eternal" life used to describe paradise, just like the money or the women of the hadith you mentioned, is also a way of speaking, intended to address the most primeval fear of human beings: death.

What I mean is that since there is no "time" in the afterlife, "eternal life" may have been a term used by the Manifestations of God to make some sense to us, the fearful, vulnerable beings who are used to measure life in days, months and years. So, in the Hadith above, if a man had answered to Prophet Mohammed that LIFE was what he most loved... the Prophet would have replied: "The afterlife will be filled of abundant... indeed, eternal life."

I have had these intuitions when reading passages like these:
"And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent." (Jesus in John 17:3)

"The spirits of heavenly souls will find eternal life, that is, they will attain the highest and most great stations of perfection" (Tablets of Abdul Bah Abbas)

"For those who believe in God, who have love of God, and faith, life is excellent—that is, it is eternal; but to those souls who are veiled from God, although they have life, it is dark, and in comparison with the life of believers it is nonexistence.
" (Abdul'Bah, Some Answered Questions)
Instead of defining eternal life as an infinite number of days, months or years, these passages seem to define eternal life as a condition, a station that can be reached. It equates eternal life with Knowledge (of God and His Manifestation), Love, Faith, Excellence, Perfection.

We know, through the effect of certain chemical substances (DMT) and meditation, that people can achieve while in the mortal body a level of consciousness in which time gets so distorted, that it almost disappears. They can travel, see, hear, feel and understand many things in which seemed to take years to accomplish.... and later on discovered that everything happened in few seconds.

Eternal life can therefore be a state of conciousness, already accesible during this mortal life but more significantly achieved at the time of our transition, which will be experienced by the soul as a permanent "NOW", even if for all clocks downhere it last only seconds as the brain turns off its activity.

I apologize for deviating a bit from the central topic of the thread.

Last edited by camachoe; 07-31-2017 at 11:02 AM.
 
Old 07-31-2017, 12:01 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by camachoe View Post
By the way, I wonder if the concept of "everlasting" or "eternal" life used to describe paradise, just like the money or the women of the hadith you mentioned, is also a way of speaking, intended to address the most primeval fear of human beings: death.

What I mean is that since there is no "time" in the afterlife, "eternal life" may have been a term used by the Manifestations of God to make some sense to us, the fearful, vulnerable beings who are used to measure life in days, months and years. So, in the Hadith above, if a man had answered to Prophet Mohammed that LIFE was what he most loved... the Prophet would have replied: "The afterlife will be filled of abundant... indeed, eternal life."

I have had these intuitions when reading passages like these:
"And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent." (Jesus in John 17:3)

"The spirits of heavenly souls will find eternal life, that is, they will attain the highest and most great stations of perfection" (Tablets of Abdul Bah Abbas)

"For those who believe in God, who have love of God, and faith, life is excellentthat is, it is eternal; but to those souls who are veiled from God, although they have life, it is dark, and in comparison with the life of believers it is nonexistence.
" (Abdul'Bah, Some Answered Questions)
Instead of defining eternal life as an infinite number of days, months or years, these passages seem to define eternal life as a condition, a station that can be reached. It equates eternal life with Knowledge (of God and His Manifestation), Love, Faith, Excellence, Perfection.
I'm trying to contemplate this, wondering about eternity, infinity, timelessness, endlessness, and whether or not those things can be considered synonyms or whether they are their own separate things.

But, of course, a finity cannot contain an infinity, and so my finite mind can't really come to any good answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by camachoe View Post
We know, through the effect of certain chemical substances (DMT) and meditation, that people can achieve while in the mortal body a level of consciousness in which time gets so distorted, that it almost disappears. They can travel, see, hear, feel and understand many things in which seemed to take years to accomplish.... and later on discovered that everything happened in few seconds.

Eternal life can therefore be a state of conciousness, already accesible during this mortal life but more significantly achieved at the time of our transition, which will be experienced by the soul as a permanent "NOW", even if for all clocks downhere it last only seconds as the brain turns off its activity.
We are told that the afterlife is comparable to dreams, or rather, as comparable as anything can be to the state of afterlife. This gets me wondering as I have developed a good ability to recall and remember my dreams... and in some of them time does not flow normally.

I've definitely had dreams before where a sort of story or narrative will play out, sometimes starting in the middle, then shifting to the beginning, then to the end, then to earlier than the beginning, etc.

Alternately there are times where, in a dream, I will meet or see a dream character and I will just know their past and backstory, or sometimes their "future" within the narrative of the dream.

So I wonder if the state of timelessness is, perhaps, similar to what I've experienced dreaming. Or, you know, as similar as any living experience can be to the state.
 
Old 07-31-2017, 12:48 PM   #59
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Sorry for having gone astray from the topic of the thread.

Regarding the Problem of Evil, I just wanted to say that the existence of beings with free will seems to be important for God, even if that brings along the risk of having these free-will beings making the wrong choices.

Will free will inevitably emerge from very advanced Artificial Intelligence?
Furthermore, if it is up to us do decide to give robots free will, will we give it to them?
Currently, we take for granted that free will is, second to life, the most precious gift, even if many times we use it to do evil. So, if free will is such a great thing, why wouldn't we give it to machines if we could?

Sooner or later, all ethical systems and certainly the Baha'i Faith will be challenged by questions like this. My guess is that God will not let us alone and through his Holy Spirit, the UHJ and perhaps lesser prophets raising at the right time and place, we will preserve as a community of believers a path to follow.

Right now, ethicists and scientists may debate fiercely over whether we should prolong life, seek contact with extraterrestrial intelligence or practice euthanasia. But what everybody seems to reject unanimously is the idea of giving AI machines such algorithms that they can start perceiving themselves as individuals with free will.
We abhor the very idea, we explain, because machines could turn against us.

But... aren't we turning against one another anyway? Humans have a long record of hurting and destroying other humans. Why, then, would we tolerate free will in humans, but supress it in robots?
 
Old 07-31-2017, 02:23 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camachoe View Post
But... aren't we turning against one another anyway? Humans have a long record of hurting and destroying other humans. Why, then, would we tolerate free will in humans, but supress it in robots?
Maybe another question to ask is why God gave humans free will, knowing they would use it to bring suffering upon themselves as well as inflicting suffering upon others.

Could there have been another better way for us to learn and grow spiritually? I guess the only answer is that God is omniscient so God knew the best way, and that we are not omniscient so we cannot question God.... still, something about a world where so many people suffer seems wrong, although maybe it does not seem that way to those who suffer very little.
 
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