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Old 07-12-2018, 02:21 PM   #1
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For BAHAIS Astrology a SCIENCE YET? Fetched from Ocean program

For BAHAIS is Astrology a SCIENCE YET? Writings Fetched from Ocean program

Personally I've discovered thorough synchronicities between personalities and events and patterns in horoscopes of tropical western astrology. Is astrology not a science yet? It seems Shoghi Effendi condemns astrology as a "pseudo science" in a letter to an individual believer way back in the 1940's. is out of context and obsolete with all the information we have available and the internet. What do you Bahais think about astrology now? Do any Bahais study astrology? I want to hear from you.


The nature of beliefs


Santos Bonacci The Ancient Theology, Astrotheology Part 1

---------------------------------

In the world of science and knowledge, if we go back into the Dark Ages, medieval history, we find many seemingly scientific hypothesis and theories which were looked upon as realities in those ages; but they are today exploded through new discoveries. How are we going to explain those phenomena? We can explain it by this fact, that those theories, looked upon as realities by our forefathers, were simply efforts of the mind, assertions of man to explain certain unexplained laws, and as man is a curious animal and he desires to know things these were his efforts to find out, and when the time passed and the necessity for those laws was obviated, greater and more perfect laws were born into the world.
The science of astronomy is the greatest illustration. Because, there was a time when the Ptolemaic system was taught in Egypt, later on adopted by the Greeks, and then introduced into Europe-that the earth was the centre of the universe and the sun, the stars, the planets, all revolve around this infinitesimal globe of ours. How ridiculous this theory seems to modern mind! And yet, for ages and ages it was taught, and anyone who departed one hair's breadth from this theory was looked upon as a heretic and a dangerous man.
Is there any intelligent being today, who would rise and say that we must still believe in that ancient, exploded theory of astronomy or astrology?
Now, here is one philosophical point that I call your attention to: Just as the sciences of the world evolve and every age has its school of science and philosophy, likewise, hand in hand with science and philosophy goes the development and the evolution of religion. Religion is an index to the science of the day, and science is an index to the religion of the day.
The prophets and the manifestations of God are the teachers in the schools of humanity; just as the teachers in our schools have to teach the children in accord with their receptivity for growth and mental acquisition, likewise, these great prophets taught the children of mankind from age to age in those lessons for which they were adapted, so that they might go through certain classes, receive their certificate, and attain to the higher and the highest classes of perfection.
We are living, today, in a universal age, in an era of universal consciousness, in an age of the discovery of the sciences, the display of imagination, the perfections and the revealing of the mystic laws, and if we study the contents of the seven books of the religions of the past, we find in them certain statements which are not in accord with the deductions of modern science. What are we going to do with them?

(SOW - Star of the West, Star of the West - 7)


1746. Astronomy is a Science, Astrology is Not

"Astronomy is a science, astrology does not come under the same category, but we should be patient with people who believe in it, and gradually wean them away from reliance on such things."

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 515)



1746. Astronomy is a Science, Astrology is Not

"Astronomy is a science, astrology does not come under the same category, but we should be patient with people who believe in it, and gradually wean them away from reliance on such things."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, dated December 24, 1941, to an individual believer, Ibid,. p. 10)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 516)
1747. Non-Sensical Pseudo-science

"Yes, the Guardian considers 'astrology' which is a pseudo-science, as for the most part 'non-sensical', as it is mostly made up of superstitious beliefs and practices."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, dated July 10, 1939, to an individual believer, Spiritualism, Reincarnation and Related Subjects p. 10)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 516)


1748. Horoscopes

"We should attach no importance to astrology or horoscopes. No exact science is involved, though sometimes some truth seems involved, but the percentage is small."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, dated January 15, 1951 to an individual believer, Ibid,. p. 18)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 516)


1748. Horoscopes

"We should attach no importance to astrology or horoscopes. No exact science is involved, though sometimes some truth seems involved, but the percentage is small."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, dated January 15, 1951 to an individual believer, Ibid,. p. 18)

1749. Fruitless Sciences

"Fruitless sciences is what Bahá'u'lláh, refers to, like metaphysical hair splittings, and other abstract things carried to the extreme.

"The friends should be encouraged not to waste time on such things as astrology, etc., which you mention. They cannot be forbidden to do so. The exercise of our free will to choose to do the right things is much more important."

(From a letter written on behalf of Guardian, dated July 30, 1956, to an individual believer, Bahá'í News, No.230, p. 1, April 1950)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 516)
1750. Influence of the Stars and Planets

"Concerning your question as to the influence of the stars and planets on the life of a believer; such ideas should be entirely dissociated from the Teachings. The passage on p. 133 of the 'Gleanings' bears no reference whatsoever to this matter.

"As to illness or poverty; such calamities may be either irrevocable or, and it is often the case, they may be avoided. There is no reference in the Teachings as to whether the stars have any influence on healing such diseases. These astrological ideas are for the most part sheer superstitions."

(From a letter written on behalf of Guardian to an individual believer, July 17, 1937; Spiritualism, Reincarnation and Related Subjects, pp. 9, 10)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 516)


751. Numerology

"...it is absolutely essential that the teachings should not be confused with the obscure ideas related to numerology and astrology and the like. Individuals interested in them are free to believe in and credit such ideas and to make any inferences and deductions they desire from them, but under no circumstances are they expected to identify them with the principles and teachings of the Cause. We must at this stage preserve the purity and sanctity of the Bahá'í teachings. I will 517 pray that you may be guided in your efforts, and may succeed in safeguarding and promoting the interests of our beloved Faith."
(Ibid,. December 26, 1928, p. 9)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 516)

1752. Numerology Nor Astrology Needed by the Believers

"There is nothing in the teachings which leads us to believe numerology or astrology are needed by the believers to guide them in any way."

(From letter dated June 25, 1950 written on behalf Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer; Spiritualism, Psychic Phenomena and Related Subjects, p. 3)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 516)
"There is nothing in the teachings which leads us to believe numerology or astrology are needed by the believers to guide them in any way."

(From letter dated June 25, 1950 written on behalf Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer; Spiritualism, Psychic Phenomena and Related Subjects, p. 3)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 517)

Cause but was used by the Seers to foretell the Báb's coming. Numerology, astrology, palmistry, etc., is left to the individuals. They should be left free as far as possible, as long as they don't associate these ideas with the Caus

(David's Collection, Mary Maxwell Pilgrim Notes)

Numerology, astrology, palmistry, etc., is left to the individuals. They should be left free as far as possible, as long as they don't associate these ideas with the Cause.

(David's Collection, Mary Maxwell)

The spiritual cycles of the Sun of Reality are like the cycles of the material sun: they are always revolving and being renewed. The Sun of Reality, like the material sun, has numerous rising and dawning places: one day it rises from the zodiacal sign of Cancer, another day from the sign of Libra or Aquarius; another time it is from the sign of Aries that it diffuses its rays. But the sun is one sun and one reality; the people of knowledge are lovers of the sun, and are not fascinated by the places of its rising and dawning. The people of perception are the seekers of the truth, and not of the places of its appearance, nor of its dawning points; therefore, they will adore the Sun from whatever point in the zodiac it may appear, and they will seek the Reality in every Sanctified Soul Who manifests it. Such people always attain to the truth and are not veiled from the Sun of the Divine World. So the lover of the sun and the seeker of the light will always turn toward the sun, whether it shines from the sign of Aries or gives its bounty from the sign of Cancer, or radiates from Gemini; but the ignorant and uninstructed are lovers of the signs of the zodiac, and enamored and fascinated by the rising-places, and not by the sun. When it was in the sign of Cancer, they turned toward it, though afterward the sun changed to the sign of Libra; as they were lovers of the sign, they turned toward it and attached themselves to it, and were deprived of the influences of the sun merely because it had changed its place. For example, once the Sun of Reality poured forth its rays from the sign of Abraham, and then it dawned from the sign of Moses and illuminated the horizon. Afterward it rose with the greatest power and brilliancy from the sign of Christ. Those who were the seekers of Reality worshiped that Reality wherever they saw it, but those who were attached to Abraham were deprived of its influences when it shone upon Sinai and illuminated 77 the reality of Moses. Those who held fast to Moses, when the Sun of Reality shone from Christ with the utmost radiance and lordly splendor, were also veiled; and so forth.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 75)

The Sun is ever the same, but the place whence the Sun hath appeared hath changed. Then, at Christ's time, it appeared in the sign of Aquarius, but now it hath manifested itself from the sign of Cancer. These signs are just for an illustration. The sun is the same sun, no matter from what sign it may manifest itself or from what spot it may arise. Thou must look at the Sun; do not become veiled by the places from which the Sun appears."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 342)


The SUN is ever the same, but the place where the SUN has appeared has changed. Then, at Christ's time, it appeared in the sign of Aquarius, and now it has manifested itself from the sign of Cancer: these signs are only for an illustration. The SUN is the same SUN, no matter from what sign it may manifest itself or from what spot it may arise. Thou must look at the SUN: do not become veiled by the Places from which the SUN appears.

(Ella Cooper, Ella Cooper's Notes)

69
THE INFLUENCE OF THE STARS

Question. -- Have the stars of the heavens any influence upon the human soul, or have they not?

Answer. -- Some of the celestial stars have a clear and apparent material effect upon the terrestrial globe and the earthly beings, which needs no explanation. Consider the sun, which through the aid and the providence of God develops the earth and all earthly beings. Without the light and heat of the sun, all the earthly creatures would be entirely nonexistent.

With regard to the spiritual influence of stars, though this influence of stars in the human world may appear strange, still, if you reflect deeply upon this subject, you will not be so much surprised at it. My meaning is not, however, that the decrees which the astrologers of former times inferred from the movements of the stars corresponded to occurrences; for the decrees of those former astrologers were forms of imagination which were originated by Egyptian, Assyrian and Chaldean priests; nay, rather, they were due to the fancies of Hindus, to the myths of the Greeks, Romans and other star worshipers.


But I mean that this limitless universe is like the human body, all the members of which are connected and linked with one another with the greatest strength. How much the organs, the members and the parts of the body of man are intermingled and connected for mutual aid and help, and how much they influence one another! In the same way, the parts of this infinite universe have their members <p246> and elements connected with one another, and influence one another spiritually and materially.

For example, the eye sees, and all the body is affected; the ear hears, and all the members of the body are moved. Of this there is no doubt; and the universe is like a living person. Moreover, the connection which exists between the members of beings must necessarily have an effect and impression, whether it be material or spiritual.

For those who deny spiritual influence upon material things we mention this brief example: wonderful sounds and tones, melodies and charming voices, are accidents which affect the air -- for sound is the term for vibrations of the air -- and by these vibrations the nerves of the tympanum of the ear are affected, and hearing results. Now reflect that the vibration of the air, which is an accident of no importance, attracts and exhilarates the spirit of man and has great effect upon him: it makes him weep or laugh; perhaps it will influence him to such a degree that he will throw himself into danger. Therefore, see the connection which exists between the spirit of man and the atmospheric vibration, so that the movement of the air becomes the cause of transporting him from one state to another, and of entirely overpowering him; it will deprive him of patience and tranquillity. Consider how strange this is, for nothing comes forth from the singer which enters into the listener; nevertheless, a great spiritual effect is produced. Therefore, surely so great a connection between beings must have spiritual effect and influence.

It has been mentioned that the members and parts of man affect and influence one another. For example, the eye sees; the heart is affected. The ear hears; and the spirit is influenced. The heart is at rest; the thoughts become serene, and for all the members of man's body a pleasant condition is realized. What a connection and what an agreement is this! Since this connection, this spiritual effect <p247> and this influence, exists between the members of the body of man, who is only one of many finite beings, certainly between these universal and infinite beings there will also be a spiritual and material connection. Although by existing rules and actual science these connections cannot be discovered, nevertheless, their existence between all beings is certain and absolute.

To conclude: the beings, whether great or small, are connected with one another by the perfect wisdom of God, and affect and influence one another. If it were not so, in the universal system and the general arrangement of existence, there would be disorder and imperfection. But as beings are connected one with another with the greatest strength, they are in order in their places and perfect.

This subject is worthy of examination. <p248>

Last edited by ReturnofZealSeeker; 07-12-2018 at 02:24 PM. Reason: minor grammar error
 
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:06 AM   #2
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I don't believe in astrology. It's predictions are vague, and can be fitted to anything. It's easy to fool yourself with astrology.
 
Old 07-13-2018, 10:13 AM   #3
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So I can't find the quote right now in my book of quotes, but I remember seeing somewhere a quote from Maria the Prophetess, a Jewish mystic, who wrote about how occultists were like people of a city that spoke their own language, and those who didn't know that language were unable to understand them.

I'll find it later. As it's a good quote.

I think it serves as a good verse to keep in mind when studying the "occult sciences", as a reminder that mystics spoke in their own language of symbolism and art and that the meaning of their works in astrology and alchemy isn't always the outward appearance of their writing.

Astrology is based in Hermes' writing "As Above, Below. As Below, Above" (Emerald Tablet), which as I mentioned on one of your other threads is actually affirmed by Baha'u'llah as he quotes the Emerald Tablet himself in his own writings.

The meaning of astrology, I believe, is that the Heavens influence the Earth, and that the Earth influences the Heavens. However I think that a lot of people take that too literally (like the people who write most horoscopes) and end up thinking that the stars dictate our nature, whereas I believe the true meaning of those writings lies in the truth that the world of the spirit interacts with and influences the world of the physical (and the physical influences the spirit), more than we realize, and that there is no true separation between these two worlds. This idea can be found in a lot of 'Abdu'l-Baha's writings, such as one of your quotes that you provided.

I think the potential value of this science is lost when people take it way too literally and then we end up with the sort of nonsense found in newspaper horoscopes. Literalism is the enemy of all occult sciences. The alchemist Ibn Umail wrote of this danger, writing on the topic of turning lead into gold: "But the people imagined it is the gold which is in their hands. Therefore they ruined it with different kinds of operations and they became tired and did not succeed."

Ergo, much like how one can doom themselves to failure by imagining that the "gold" of alchemy is the physical gold in one's hands, I think one can doom themselves to failure by imagining that the "heavens" in astrology refer simply to the visible heavens of the night sky.

Loving your posts, by the way.

Last edited by Walrus; 07-13-2018 at 10:37 AM.
 
Old 07-13-2018, 11:30 AM   #4
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impossibilities by Steve Judd

Here's kind of a more scientific approach

Personally in my life, I noticed there are synchronicities that are too completely obvious to me based on patterns of planets in astrology. Which planets, aspects, positions, and combinations of positions? And How? A lot.

Again I ask that Bahais compare what Abdu'l-Baha says in Some Anwered Questions

THE INFLUENCE OF THE STARS and draw your own conclusions
 
Old 07-13-2018, 10:45 PM   #5
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I likewise have zero acceptance of astrology. Whatever results are found are subjective, and this pseudo-science is based on the acceptance that the physical realm determines spiritual conditions. There is no acceptance even of astrology as any more than light entertainment by the scientific community, let alone it ever being accepted by the Faith as a science.

However, as you noted in your quotes, if a person wishes to accept astrology and such, no-one can forbid them. They are free to do so

Each soul must tread their own path, and must determine what they themselves regard to be truth, and no-one has the right to determine for them otherwise. Each soul has their own relation to God, and that relationship is sacrosanct.
 
Old 07-16-2018, 06:18 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
Here's kind of a more scientific approach

Personally in my life, I noticed there are synchronicities that are too completely obvious to me based on patterns of planets in astrology. Which planets, aspects, positions, and combinations of positions? And How? A lot.

Again I ask that Bahais compare what Abdu'l-Baha says in Some Anwered Questions

THE INFLUENCE OF THE STARS and draw your own conclusions
Well here's the question. Synchronicity is a correlation, not a causation. So are those life events caused by the planetary patterns, or is it perhaps that those life events and patterns are both influenced by a third, subtler force??
 
Old 07-16-2018, 08:41 AM   #7
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these two quotes may help:

Question.—Have the stars of the heavens any influence upon the human soul, or have they not?
Answer.—Some of the celestial stars have a clear and apparent material effect upon the terrestrial globe and the earthly beings, which needs no explanation. Consider the sun, which through the aid and the providence of God develops the earth and all earthly beings. Without the light and heat of the sun, all the earthly creatures would be entirely nonexistent.
With regard to the spiritual influence of stars, though this influence of stars in the human world may appear strange, still, if you reflect deeply upon this subject, you will not be so much surprised at it. My meaning is not, however, that the decrees which the astrologers of former times inferred from the movements of the stars corresponded to occurrences; for the decrees of those former astrologers were forms of imagination which were originated by Egyptian, Assyrian and Chaldean priests; nay, rather, they were due to the fancies of Hindus, to the myths of the Greeks, Romans and other star worshipers. But I mean that this limitless universe is like the human body, all the members of which are connected and linked with one another with the greatest strength. How much the organs, the members and the parts of the body of man are intermingled and connected for mutual aid and help, and how much they influence one another! In the same way, the parts of this infinite universe have their members and elements connected with one another, and influence one another spiritually and materially.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 244)

.................................................. .......


O handmaid of God! The stars in the sky do not exert any spiritual influence on this world of dust; but all the members and parts of the universe are very strongly linked together in that limitless space, and this connection produceth a reciprocity of material effects.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 160-161)
 
Old 07-16-2018, 01:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Well here's the question. Synchronicity is a correlation, not a causation. So are those life events caused by the planetary patterns, or is it perhaps that those life events and patterns are both influenced by a third, subtler force??
Here's my basic strategy recipe for people who are skeptical about the practical study of astrology; For starts consider yourself and at least 2 people in the world who you can percieve a lot about their mannerisms and style with the same Moon and Sun signs. It helps to look up https://www.astrotheme.com/celebriti...moon.phpfamous or infamous people with a whole database online for this experiment: someone's (art, literature, philosophy, celebrity status, music style, personality, rhetoric, especially a public figure) and there's at least 1 one other person in the world that has similarities.

Then do the same 2 celebrities here:

https://www.astrotheme.com/celebriti...-ascendant.php

Then Make certain what the Moon, Sun, and Ascendent (Rising sign represents). You might be surprised how you have a better Idea of peoples' character and psychology than you ever did based on these correlations. Words cannot describe similarities in mannerisms and styles with others, the feelings you get, but it is something to look into.
 
Old 07-18-2018, 09:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturnofZealSeeker View Post
Here's my basic strategy recipe for people who are skeptical about the practical study of astrology; For starts consider yourself and at least 2 people in the world who you can percieve a lot about their mannerisms and style with the same Moon and Sun signs. It helps to look up https://www.astrotheme.com/celebriti...moon.phpfamous or infamous people with a whole database online for this experiment: someone's (art, literature, philosophy, celebrity status, music style, personality, rhetoric, especially a public figure) and there's at least 1 one other person in the world that has similarities.

Then do the same 2 celebrities here:

https://www.astrotheme.com/celebriti...-ascendant.php

Then Make certain what the Moon, Sun, and Ascendent (Rising sign represents). You might be surprised how you have a better Idea of peoples' character and psychology than you ever did based on these correlations. Words cannot describe similarities in mannerisms and styles with others, the feelings you get, but it is something to look into.
Well first I know literally next to nothing about celebrities or their personalities and lives outside of their performances, so your links don't show me anything at all other than lists of names I mostly don't know.

Second I don't think I'm making myself very clear if I am being perceived as skeptical. All I've been trying to state is my belief that any synchronicities between the planetary bodies and events on earth are likely the results not of those bodies being the cause of those events, but are the results of the heavens influencing the whole of creation (similar to as 'Abdu'l-Baha says).

Like say an artist creates two works of art, and there are similarities between these two artworks. The similarities are not the result of one painting influencing the other, but rather the similarities are symptoms of both being the product of the same artistic hand.

Thereby I contend that any similarities between the motion of the planets and the events and personalities in the world are the result of both things being created by the same Divine Artist.

The contention isn't that there can be no synchronicities between the planets and the earth, or even that one can't potentially study one to the other, my contention is merely that the correlation does not indicate causation, and that the true causation of the correlation lies elsewhere, outside of the physical planetary bodies.
 
Old 07-18-2018, 11:06 AM   #10
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Do Stars Impel or Compel? "This subject is worthy of examination."

Quote:
The contention isn't that there can be no synchronicities between the planets and the earth, or even that one can't potentially study one to the other, my contention is merely that the correlation does not indicate causation, and that the true causation of the correlation lies elsewhere, outside of the physical planetary bodies.
Quote:
To conclude: the beings, whether great or small, are connected with one another by the perfect wisdom of God, and affect and influence one another. If it were not so, in the universal system and the general arrangement of existence, there would be disorder and imperfection. But as beings are connected one with another with the greatest strength, they are in order in their places and perfect.

This subject is worthy of examination. 248

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 246)


Compel vs. Impel
https://data.grammarbook.com/blog/de...mpel-vs-impel/

solar system movement through space


I think I can agree with you Walrus, but I also think it should be clearly stated that people who put weight in astrology and do their own independent investigation of the truth in the matter, recognize patterns and synchronicities as unbiased and unattached as absolutely possible and they conclude they see psychic weather patterns and are like weather forecasters (not entirely accurate all the time). Most accredited modern science does not do this at all. Most "science" is an ivory towered den of parasite, quacks, and frauds. Its not science at all its "SCIENTISM"!



Century of Light | Bahá’à Reference Library
Here's some writings explaining scientism:
Quote:
Century of Light | Bahá’à Reference Library
The academic world, once the scene of great exploits of the mind and spirit, settled into the role of a kind of scholastic industry preoccupied with tending its machinery of dissertations, symposia, publication credits and grants.
 
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