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Old 05-10-2014, 02:14 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h123 View Post
A transition from outright denial to approval:

First it was claimed, that the Bab's laws that I had mentioned were lies and I was posting garbage and b/s.
Then they were accepted but I was accused of distorting the translation.
Then the translation was verified but it was claimed that you have to show us a direct order from the Bab in which he names someone to be killed.
And now "InvestigateTruth" is telling us the laws are no big deal and were merely the orders of God that must be followed.
You are still b/s, your claims are still b/s, why do you insist on coming to a peaceful forum and causing problems? Why? Because you don't believe in our faith, and claim we are wrong? Well what about Judaism? Are they wrong? Christians? What about the Sunni Muslims? Do you feel that your religion is the only way to the kingdom of god? If you feel that way, you are really misconstrued. At the end of the day, all the major religions believe and worship, ONE god. This is illustrated in our Baha'i scriptures extensively. You are nothing but a lost sheep.
 
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Old 05-10-2014, 03:28 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h123 View Post
In all legislative systems, you do not see the names of specific people inscribed in the law. For instance, the law says "he who runs the red light must be fined or arrested." It does not say "if Harry or Mathew run the red light then arrest or fine them."

Likewise, the Bab gave the aforementioned order about all non-Babis, not just one or two specific people that he had mentioned by name. You do not see names mentioned in his other similar writings either:

"He who acquires a position of ruling is a manifestation of God’s wrath and if possible for him, must not leave on earth anyone but the Bābīs."
The Bāb, Lauḥ haykal al-dīn, unit 4, chap. al-Bahā.

"Make everyone accept the [religion of] Bayān and do not accept from them jewels that would amount to the whole earth as payment so that they are excused from becoming Bābīs."
The Bāb, Lauḥ haykal al-dīn, unit 5, chap. al-Lād.

"The fifth chapter of the fifth unit which is about the decree of taking the property of those who do not believe in [the religion] of Bayan and giving it back if they become believers in this religion, except in the lands where taking [property] is not possible."
The Bāb, Farsi Bayān, unit 5, chap. 5.
Here is information on the first piece by Stephen Lambden, a Baha'i scholar.

The

Here is the full of excerpt of the Quote from the Bayan. This is taken from Browne's summary of the Bayan. Browne was not a Baha'i.

Wahid V, Chapter 5. Concerning the command to take the possessions of those who do not believe in the Bayan, and the command to restore it, if they enter the Faith, except in those countries wherein its seizure is impossible.

In the day of the Manifestation of the Apostle of God [Muhammad], the soul of naught that breathed was its own; how then that which is subsidiary to life? Unless it entered his religion; whereupon that which God hath bestowed on it became lawful to it. So also in the Manifestation of Him whom God shall manifest, no soul is lawful to its possessor unless it believe in Him, and all shall be taken from all, except that which enter under the shadow of His Religion. This is the Grace of God towards His creatures; for where countries were conquered in the beginning of Islam, they were compelled by force and violence to enter Islam and become partakers of the fruits of Islam, and to such as believed not, no mercy was shown, and till now they have remained in the Fire. So also in this Manifestation with unbelievers, naught appertaining to them is lawful, except to those who enter the Faith, whereby it becomes lawful to them. This command is to powerful Kings in the Faith, not to all. And in countries wherein it would become the cause of sadness or loss to anyone, God hath not ordered it to be made manifest; as, for instance, in the case of merchants in the countries of the Franks; such must keep their accounts with the utmost diligence, lest disgrace befall them. From God comes Permission, while obedience is for His Creatures. If all who were powerful in Islam had acted according to the command of the Qur'an, today all on earth would have believed in the Qur'an; and now that it is not so the fault is on the part of mankind, since [that Command] which was due appear from the Source did appear in the Qur'an. The object is that when He whom God shall manifest shall appear, all shall have been educated in the Bayan, that none of the believers in the Bayan may remain outside belief in Him; should one do so, the Command concerning him is as the Command concerning him who believeth not in God. I swear by God that in the Manifestation of Him whom God shall manifest all shall unite in helping

And again, another injunction of the Bayan:

Wahid IV, Chapter 5. Concerning this, that the Possessors of the Circles are signs unto him. Take care, O people of the Bayan, for the Manifestation of God will appear how God pleases, therefore think not untruly concerning the Truth, for his verses are a sign to all. No one is to be slain for unbelief, for the slaying of a soul is outside the religion of God. And from the day when the Sun of Truth shall set, for no one of those who believe in the Bayan is the decree of killing lawful, and if anyone orders it, he is not and was not of the Bayan, for no sin can be greater for him than this. And God has sealed it by His own Holy Essence that He will not pardon anyone who meditates the slaughter of one of those who believe in the Bayan. And those who hold ta'ziyas and weep and lament over the misfortunes of the first promulgators of Islam, did nevertheless imprison and oppress that same person whom they lament; while the Doctors of the Law give fatwas against him. And this is so much insisted on in the Bayan, that no one should make another sad, lest perhaps the Lord of the Matter (Sahibu'l-Amr, i.e. He whom God shall manifest) be rendered sad. And even those who have not entered the Religion (if such there be) on that Day, are to be treated with justice.

Babi laws were particularly severe in nature to prove the authority of the law could be challenged.

To quote Lambden, "Within the Haykal al-Din are many examples of the labyrinthine and novel legalistic enactments of the Bāb, many of which are eschatologically charged or designed to `prepare the way' for the advent of man yuẓhiru-hu Allāh. In order to give some idea of the teachings and laws formulated by the Bāb during the latest period of his life the following lines summarize a few sections of the Haykal al‑dīn. "

Shoghi Effendi said of the Bayan:

The severe laws and injunctions revealed by the Báb can be properly appreciated and understood only when interpreted in the light of His own statements regarding the nature, purpose and character of His own Dispensation. As these statements clearly reveal, the Bábí Dispensation was essentially in the nature of a religious and indeed social revolution, and its duration had therefore to be short, but full of tragic events, of sweeping and drastic reforms. Those drastic measures enforced by the Báb and His followers were taken with the view of undermining the very foundations of Shí’ih orthodoxy, and thus paving the way for the coming of Bahá’u’lláh. To assert the independence of the new Dispensation, and to prepare also the ground for the approaching Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, the Báb had therefore to reveal very severe laws, even though most of them were never enforced. But the mere fact that He revealed them was in itself a proof of the independent character of His Dispensation and was sufficient to create such widespread agitation, and excite such opposition on the part of the clergy that led them to cause His eventual martyrdom.

Another scholar, Dennis Maceoin, wrote, "One comes away from the Bayan with a strong sense that very little of this is to be taken seriously. It is a form of game, never actually intended to be put into practice ... Above all, it stated very clearly that the Islamic code could be replaced. It was a question of how best to do it."

Deconstructing and Reconstructing the Shari'a
 
Old 05-10-2014, 04:36 PM   #43
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I'm melting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdef View Post
You are still b/s, your claims are still b/s, why do you insist on coming to a peaceful forum and causing problems? Why? Because you don't believe in our faith, and claim we are wrong? Well what about Judaism? Are they wrong? Christians? What about the Sunni Muslims? Do you feel that your religion is the only way to the kingdom of god? If you feel that way, you are really misconstrued. At the end of the day, all the major religions believe and worship, ONE god. This is illustrated in our Baha'i scriptures extensively. You are nothing but a lost sheep.
"I'm melting..." (from the Wizard of Oz)

 
Old 05-10-2014, 05:48 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdef View Post
You are still b/s, your claims are still b/s, why do you insist on coming to a peaceful forum and causing problems? Why? Because you don't believe in our faith, and claim we are wrong? Well what about Judaism? Are they wrong? Christians? What about the Sunni Muslims? Do you feel that your religion is the only way to the kingdom of god? If you feel that way, you are really misconstrued. At the end of the day, all the major religions believe and worship, ONE god. This is illustrated in our Baha'i scriptures extensively. You are nothing but a lost sheep.
Calm down. I don't remember speaking about any religion here but Babism and Baha'ism. I didn't even bother with speaking about Shi'ism or defending it in any way. I don't know where you reached those conclusions from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dale ramsdell View Post
"I'm melting..." (from the Wizard of Oz)

I don't understand what you mean by this post, but, I take it you are trying to make fun of me.
 
Old 05-10-2014, 05:53 PM   #45
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Why exactly do you come here on a Baha'i forum to hijack threads about Baha'is being persecuted by to tell us how awful we are?

You're very childish and immature.
 
Old 05-11-2014, 01:10 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Earth View Post
Greetings Arthra,

Thank you for linking to this subject matter. It certainly takes one back to 1983, which is probably one of the key moments that permitted the world to view the persecution of Bahá’ís in Iran during modern times in a new light.



With regards to the discussion by some users on the Báb’s Writings, it is known that it is extremely difficult for anyone to read the symbolic language employed by the Báb, even if the reader has detailed comprehension of Arabic. Therefore it would be a mistake to assume that anyone that expresses difficulties with them are merely seeking to misrepresent them because all people employ their own forms of hermeneutics. Because of this it is very easy to become confused over apparent contradictions in religious works. Therefore native Arabic readers can easily become frustrated with the explanations offered by non-native Arabic and non-Arabic readers. Just because a person appears hostile to the Bahá’í Faith does not mean that they are.

If anyone here would like to examine material that looks more into this subject matter in the English language you would do well to read Gate of the Heart: Understanding the Writings of the Bab (Baha'i Studies) by Nader Saiedi. Below is an element taken from Saiedi’s introduction. It may be of use in regards to understanding the issue being addressed here:

“Even for those who read the original languages, the Báb's writings present formidable challenges. The complexity and the esoteric character of those texts has understandably baffled readers and translators. Moreover, the language the Báb uses is unique to Him. The majority of His writings are in Arabic but a significant number are in Persian; both His Arabic and Persian, however, are linguistically innovative and non-standard, and deliberately so. This point has been lost on many readers, who have all too quickly and simplistically attributed deviation from convention to mere error. Yet, more important than the linguistic style, it is the complexity of the ideas, their philosophical and mystical depth, as well as the multi-faceted symbolic character and highly subtle rhetorical coding of the Báb's discourse that make these texts so difficult to understand, but that also account for their richness, beauty, and fascination.

One notable aspect of these texts' difficulty - an aspect which at first glance may seem arcane and esoteric - is their extensive use of the symbolism of letters and numbers. In Arabic, as in Hebrew and other ancient languages, each letter has a numerical value (the numbers were originally written as their letter equivalents, similar to roman numerals). The use of letter-number symbolism in mystical texts is often associated with the gematria of the Cahala, but it was also an important component of esoteric Islamic traditions and was widely practised in Shaykhi circles. Over the centuries, the fact that the surihs of the Qur'an usually begin with a series of disconnected letters led many Muslims to believe that those mysterious letters stood for secret knowledge. One of the signs expected of the Qa'im was that he would unravel the mystery concealed within those letters and would disclose the inner meanings of the Holy Text. Hence, in accordance with such millenarian expectations, as well as to convey multiple levels of meaning and allusion, the Báb often employs letter-number equivalence as one of the many symbolic modes of His discourse.

Another aspect contributing to the difficulty of reading the Báb's writings is that they are heavily intertextual: the Báb often employs quotations from and allusions to the Qur'an and Islamic Traditions, which are so interwoven into the fabric of His text as to make them indistinguishable from His own words. This stylistic feature in itself is highly meaningful and symbolic. Intimate knowledge of the Qur'an is required to identify those allusions and quotations, but knowledge of their traditional meanings is only the first step toward understanding their meaning within the Báb's texts. The presence of references to esoteric terms and concepts from Shaykhi discourse further adds to the challenge of understanding the Báb's works. Yet, the most important reason for the complexity and difficulty of His writings is the intense creativity and symbolic nature of the Báb's thought. The meaning of individual texts cannot be understood except within the context of the totality of the Báb's own writings; when one single text or passage is extracted from that totality and read out of context, it becomes vulnerable to serious misinterpretation and even reversal of meaning. For all these reasons, the writings of the Báb have presented a daunting challenge to readers.”


It should in all fairness also be pointed out that not all official Bahá’í websites are as well constructed or maintained as some believers like to believe. This is because key guidance notes are often omitted or placed elsewhere and this can often lead to confusion and misunderstanding for readers of any language. This of course makes it an official matter and it is not really possible to resolve this on an unofficial website.

Like Sen McGlinn, I would certain welcome the names of anyone whom the Báb allegedly had ordered to be beheaded. But if none can be found I fully recognise why such confusion can exist. The symbolic works of the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh cannot be penetrated by any language. This is why reading them in their native tongue can offer no real insights or understanding unless one understands how to decode them. While this process has begun it will take many future generations to unravel them and even then it will not penetrate the closed prophesies until the appointed time because only the future Manifestation of God will be able to do this. This will be the One whom Bahá’ís in the future will persecute.

Earth
Dear Earth
Thank you for this info.
I am having this book you mention ( Gate of the Heart: Understanding the Writings of the Bab (Baha'i Studies) by Nader Saiedi.) delivered to me, and expect it in a few days, I look forward to studying it.
 
Old 05-11-2014, 02:00 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Dear Earth
Thank you for this info.
I am having this book you mention ( Gate of the Heart: Understanding the Writings of the Bab (Baha'i Studies) by Nader Saiedi.) delivered to me, and expect it in a few days, I look forward to studying it.
My little gift to myself this month was the Cambridge Companion to American Islam. You should read some Todd Lawson stuff. He does a lot of work on the Bab.
 
Old 05-12-2014, 03:23 AM   #48
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I owe Harry a debt of gratitude he has ade me think about my faith and once again reminded me of its beauty and why I love it and am in love with the Bab, Baha'u'llah and Abdulbaha
 
Old 05-12-2014, 03:53 AM   #49
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Amen Aidan.
 
Old 05-12-2014, 06:19 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by bahaiextraordinaire View Post
My little gift to myself this month was the Cambridge Companion to American Islam. You should read some Todd Lawson stuff. He does a lot of work on the Bab.
Thank you my friend for the info, have made a note to search for work by Todd Lawson.
 
Old 05-12-2014, 06:21 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by aidan View Post
I owe Harry a debt of gratitude he has ade me think about my faith and once again reminded me of its beauty and why I love it and am in love with the Bab, Baha'u'llah and Abdulbaha
Exactly dear friend

He is doing a great service
 
Old 05-22-2014, 05:40 PM   #52
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Beloved friends

I have only glimpsed at this thread, but as my reason for posting is not to respond to any of the previous posts, it does not matter.

There will be a time when whatever is on this site will be razed to the ground also. In its place will be built a beautiful garden, open to all. Wonderful lawns, glorious garden beds. There will be no fence around it. People will come here from many parts of the world, to wander, to pause, to remember. Couples will picnic here, absorbing the aroma of peace and contentment. Others, alone or in groups, will come to meditate, such will be the atmosphere of this place. Singly, in couples, in small groups, will be those who will traverse, garden to garden, beauty to beauty, place of peace to moment of tranquility. All around it will be the buzz of the city, but here alone will be calm.

And, central to this field of joy and peace, will be a monument. On it will be inscibed the names of those who had been buried here, those names which will be remembered - for there will likewise be many forgotten, either as no record exists, or no living relative can be found to identify them.

Their bodies may have been transported away, but the spirit of their presence remains.

With warm greetings

Romane
 
Old 08-13-2014, 12:43 PM   #53
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Its almost like i have read similar quotes by another prophet of god to the one that is so hated by our shia friend over here.

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them, in every stratagem of war."

Now who said that?
 
Old 08-14-2014, 07:33 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by lostdervish View Post
Its almost like i have read similar quotes by another prophet of god to the one that is so hated by our shia friend over here.

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them, in every stratagem of war."

Now who said that?
Yes dear friend, we know.
But of course this was against a certain people at a certain place and time only, it is not to be taken out of context to wage war against people in these days. But of course we see those who do.
If one wishes we can take a verse or part of a verse from any of the Holy books to try and justify bad actions, but God knows, and God judges.

Loving regards to you
 
Old 08-14-2014, 10:36 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Yes dear friend, we know.
But of course this was against a certain people at a certain place and time only, it is not to be taken out of context to wage war against people in these days. But of course we see those who do.
If one wishes we can take a verse or part of a verse from any of the Holy books to try and justify bad actions, but God knows, and God judges.

Loving regards to you
I know. I brought it up to show how disingenuous our Shia friends attack was.

For anyone that is actually interested, the bab on numerous occasions implies that enforcing these laws is up to finishing the bayan. Which the aqdas does and in doing so obliterates jihad. Which goes right into the uniqueness of the Faith. For the first time in history, a religion will not be spread by the sword but through independent investigation of truth.
 
Old 08-14-2014, 01:15 PM   #56
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I know. I brought it up to show how disingenuous our Shia friends attack was.

For anyone that is actually interested, the bab on numerous occasions implies that enforcing these laws is up to finishing the bayan. Which the aqdas does and in doing so obliterates jihad. Which goes right into the uniqueness of the Faith. For the first time in history, a religion will not be spread by the sword but through independent investigation of truth.
Yes I understand now dear friend, as your posts have progressed, I have been impressed with your knowledge and insight.

Our Shia friend has been banned, I am sad to say, I considered him a valuable teaching tool. And when friends in the forum that could read and speak both Farsi and Arabic engaged with him I learnt much.

And of course he will not be the last to attack the faith of God, sadly he did not understand that by attacking the Baha'i faith he was in fact attacking both Islam and Heaven forbid Mohammad Himself. Something even for our dear Christian friends to meditate upon and understand.
 
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