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Old 05-04-2014, 10:29 PM   #1
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Baha'i cemetery in Shiaz to be destroyed...

In 1983 ten Baha'i women were arrested for teaching children's classes in Shiraz and later hanged after they refused to recant their Faith.

During their trial, the ten women were told that if they recanted their faith, they would be released. “Whether you accept it or not, I am a Baha’i,” replied 28-year-old Zarrin Muqimi-Abyanih.

“You cannot take it away from me. I am a Baha’i with my whole being and my whole heart.”

One of the women was hanged was Mona Mahmudnizhad along with nine other women for her beliefs in 1983... three months earlier Mona's own father had been executed.

She was buried in the Baha'i cemetery in Shiraz which is now slated to be destroyed and desecrated.

Destruction of Historic Baha’i Cemetery Underway in Shiraz by Iranian Revolutionary Guards - Iran Press Watch
 
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Old 05-05-2014, 12:49 AM   #2
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Another sad day in that Countries history.

They accelerate the Cause of Baha'ullah by this unjust deeds.

Regards Tony
 
Old 05-05-2014, 04:27 AM   #3
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The enemies of the Cause are the ones who advance it. May God raise more of them. The Bab wanted to make His murderer His own Successor.
 
Old 05-05-2014, 04:31 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by differenceisgood View Post
The Bab wanted to make His murderer His own Successor.
What "murderer?"

The BAb was executed by a firing squad, not murdered.


Bruce
 
Old 05-05-2014, 05:01 AM   #5
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I dont mean literally. See this:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas, Pages 311-312
 
Old 05-05-2014, 10:22 AM   #6
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And this in the Four Valleys:

"And were it not contrary to the Law of the Book, I would verily bequeath a part of My possessions to the one who would put Me to death, and I would name him My heir; yea, I would bestow upon him a portion, would render him thanks, would seek to refresh Mine eyes with the touch of his hand. But what can I do? I have no possessions, no power, and this is what God hath ordained."
 
Old 05-08-2014, 03:43 AM   #7
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Apparently, it is only bad if a Baha'i cemetery is desecrated, but if the Bab gives the orders to desecrate the monuments of all previous religions it is highly desirable and praiseworthy. This is what `Abdu'l-Baha says about the orders of the Bab:

"It was uttered in the day of the appearance of his Highness A`lā (meaning the Bāb) to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bāb’s religion] and verified it."
`Abdu’l-Bahā, Makātīb (Egypt), vol. 2, p. 266.
http://reference.bahai.org/download/ma2-fa-pdf.zip

And this is what Baha'u'llah says about the Bab's orders:
"
I [swear by] He who in His hand is my soul and my essence, a single letter from the Bayān is dearer to me than everything that is in the heavens and the earth.
"
Asad-Allāh Fāḍil Māzandarānī, Asrār al-āthār khuṣūṣī, vol. 5, p. 333.
Asraru'l-Athar

When Baha'u'llah is clearly saying the order to desecrate the monuments of all other religions is more dear to him than everything that is in the skies and the earth, then there is no big deal in the desecration of Baha'i graves and cemeteries, and Baha'is must not protest this action.
(This does not mean I am in favor of the desecration of any grave or monument)
 
Old 05-08-2014, 06:36 AM   #8
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The Bab and Muhammad both had Jihad as a law though the Babi jihad was not legitimate until carried out by "Him Whom God Shall Manifest". And Bahaullah (ie HWGSM) banned jihad so the Babi law never actualized.
 
Old 05-08-2014, 10:02 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by differenceisgood View Post
The Bab and Muhammad both had Jihad as a law though the Babi jihad was not legitimate until carried out by "Him Whom God Shall Manifest". And Bahaullah (ie HWGSM) banned jihad so the Babi law never actualized.
Can you for once, say something that is relevant to the discussion.
 
Old 05-08-2014, 10:27 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h123 View Post
This is what `Abdu'l-Baha says about the orders of the Bab:...

"It was uttered in the day of the appearance of his Highness A`lā (meaning the Bāb) to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bāb’s religion] and verified it."
`Abdu’l-Bahā, Makātīb (Egypt), vol. 2, p. 266.
http://reference.bahai.org/download/ma2-fa-pdf.zip
Bad translation. Bayan here is a noun, it is the name of a Book. The translator (who seems to be an Arab with limited Persian) thought it was a verb. Also `enaaq here is probably "chiefs" rather than "necks," so it is not beheading but the scourging of prominent people.

These are hyperboles, saying that the laws of the Bayan were extreme. They were extreme, but also not intended to be a functional religious law. The Bab used the literary form of a law, in Arabic, accompanied by a commentary usually in Persian, to communicate non-legal meanings.
 
Old 05-08-2014, 12:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn View Post
Bad translation. Bayan here is a noun, it is the name of a Book. The translator (who seems to be an Arab with limited Persian) thought it was a verb. Also `enaaq here is probably "chiefs" rather than "necks," so it is not beheading but the scourging of prominent people.

These are hyperboles, saying that the laws of the Bayan were extreme. They were extreme, but also not intended to be a functional religious law. The Bab used the literary form of a law, in Arabic, accompanied by a commentary usually in Persian, to communicate non-legal meanings.
Sen,

I know who the translator is. The guy is fluent in both Arabic and Persian. I've double checked the translation myself and it is correct. I can't blame you for not knowing the correct translation of "zarb-i a`naagh" because neither Farsi nor Arabic are your mother tongue. You have even transliterated it incorrectly: "`enaaq". The correct translation is indeed "beheading."

Justify it how you like. The fact remains that the order was to behead the non-Babis.


Regarding the name of the book being Bayan, here is the word-for-word translation:
"Dar yum-i zuhur-i hazrat-i a`laa mantuq-i bayan zarb-i a`naaq "
"In the day of the appearance of his highness the most great the utterance of the bayan was beheading"
"Bayan" is used to refer to both the "book of Bayan" and the "religion of Bayan" (the Bab's religion). In either case, the concept is the same and the translator has conveyed the meaning correctly.

The fact remains true that the Bab's orders to desecrate all non-Baha'i monuments were praised by Baha'u'llah. These double standards are sickening.
 
Old 05-08-2014, 12:55 PM   #12
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I have risen against religions as Abraham rose against the idols. There is nothing sickening about this. I liberate man from the chains of superstition. The sword of the Tongue is meant for the beheading of the unbelievers, not to be sheathed away covered by cobwebs.

Last edited by differenceisgood; 05-08-2014 at 12:58 PM.
 
Old 05-08-2014, 01:50 PM   #13
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I'm disappointed to see that once more Harry has appeared to denigrate our faith by quoting out of context and other means. If he dislikes us so much, why can't he leave us in peace and go on about his business in peace? I have only ever seen negativity from his input
 
Old 05-08-2014, 02:43 PM   #14
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Peace

Quote:
Originally Posted by aidan View Post
why can't he leave us in peace and go on about his business in peace? I have only ever seen negativity from his input
. It is because he is not a peace with himself or with God. Such souls are destined to languish and gasp as a fish on the shoreline. They know where the water is, but can no longer reach it. So when we hear their gasps, it is the sound of a death chant, from a perspective which knows no remedy.

. "By Him Who is the Great Announcement! The All-Merciful is come invested with undoubted sovereignty. The Balance hath been appointed, and all them that dwell on earth have been gathered together. The Trumpet hath been blown, and lo, all eyes have stared up with terror, and the hearts of all who are in the heavens and on the earth have trembled, except them whom the breath of the verses of God hath quickened, and who have detached themselves from all things.

. This is the Day whereon the earth shall tell out her tidings. The workers of iniquity are her burdens, could ye but perceive it. The moon of idle fancy hath been cleft, and the heaven hath given out a palpable smoke. We see the people laid low, awed with the dread of thy Lord, the Almighty, the Most Powerful. The Crier hath cried out, and men have been torn away, so great hath been the fury of His wrath. The people of the left hand sigh and bemoan. The people of the right abide in noble habitations: they quaff the Wine that is life indeed, from the hands of the All-Merciful, and are, verily, the blissful.

. The earth hath been shaken, and the mountains have passed away, and the angels have appeared, rank on rank, before Us. Most of the people are bewildered in their drunkenness and wear on their faces the evidences of anger. Thus have We gathered together the workers of iniquity. We see them rushing on towards their idol. Say: None shall be secure this Day from the decree of God. This indeed is a grievous Day. We point out to them those that led them astray. They see them, and yet recognize them not. Their eyes are drunken; they are indeed a blind people. Their proofs are the calumnies they uttered; condemned are their calumnies by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. The Evil One hath stirred up mischief in their hearts, and they are afflicted with a torment that none can avert. They hasten to the wicked, bearing the register of the workers of iniquity. Such are their doings.

. Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, and mistake it for light. Far from God be what they fondly imagine!

. Say: Whether ye rejoice or whether ye burst for fury, the heavens are cleft asunder, and God hath come down, invested with radiant sovereignty. All created things are heard exclaiming: “The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.”

. Know thou, moreover, that We have been cast into an afflictive Prison, and are encompassed with the hosts of tyranny, as a result of what the hands of the infidels have wrought. Such is the gladness, however, which the Youth hath tasted that no earthly joy can compare unto it. By God! The harm He suffereth at the hands of the oppressor can never grieve His heart, nor can He be saddened by the ascendancy of such as have repudiated His truth.

. Say: Tribulation is a horizon unto My Revelation. The day star of grace shineth above it, and sheddeth a light which neither the clouds of men’s idle fancy nor the vain imaginations of the aggressor can obscure.

. Follow thou the footsteps of thy Lord, and remember His servants even as He doth remember thee, undeterred by either the clamor of the heedless ones or the sword of the enemy…. Spread abroad the sweet savors of thy Lord, and hesitate not, though it be for less than a moment, in the service of His Cause. The day is approaching when the victory of thy Lord, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Bountiful, will be proclaimed."

Gleanings XVII
 
Old 05-08-2014, 02:43 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by aidan View Post
I'm disappointed to see that once more Harry has appeared to denigrate our faith by quoting out of context and other means. If he dislikes us so much, why can't he leave us in peace and go on about his business in peace? I have only ever seen negativity from his input
Sorry I ruined your peace, butI quoted nothing out of context. I was merely pointing out some negative facts. These facts are true whether you like it or not. I dislike hypocrisy and double standards. I dislike the fact that Baha'is praise the desecratory laws of the Bab and at the same time make a fuss over their graves being desecrated.
 
Old 05-08-2014, 04:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h123 View Post
Sorry I ruined your peace, butI quoted nothing out of context. I was merely pointing out some negative facts. These facts are true whether you like it or not. I dislike hypocrisy and double standards. I dislike the fact that Baha'is praise the desecratory laws of the Bab and at the same time make a fuss over their graves being desecrated.
Baha'is stand shoulder to shoulder with all faiths, to protect the innocent etc of those who would oppress.

To try and slander is always the weapon of those who oppose the faith of God.
Enjoy yourself my friend by your actions you only confirm for me and others that this is God's Faith for this day.
 
Old 05-08-2014, 06:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by h123 View Post
Sorry I ruined your peace, butI quoted nothing out of context. I was merely pointing out some negative facts. These facts are true whether you like it or not. I dislike hypocrisy and double standards. I dislike the fact that Baha'is praise the desecratory laws of the Bab and at the same time make a fuss over their graves being desecrated.
You destroy my peace by promoting a covenant breaker website Harry. I am greatly distressed about their spiritual and mental well-being. By your action you have lost my respect
 
Old 05-08-2014, 08:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h123 View Post
Apparently, it is only bad if a Baha'i cemetery is desecrated, but if the Bab gives the orders to desecrate the monuments of all previous religions it is highly desirable and praiseworthy. This is what `Abdu'l-Baha says about the orders of the Bab:

"It was uttered in the day of the appearance of his Highness A`lā (meaning the Bāb) to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bāb’s religion] and verified it."
`Abdu’l-Bahā, Makātīb (Egypt), vol. 2, p. 266.
http://reference.bahai.org/download/ma2-fa-pdf.zip

And this is what Baha'u'llah says about the Bab's orders:
"
I [swear by] He who in His hand is my soul and my essence, a single letter from the Bayān is dearer to me than everything that is in the heavens and the earth.
"
Asad-Allāh Fāḍil Māzandarānī, Asrār al-āthār khuṣūṣī, vol. 5, p. 333.
Asraru'l-Athar

When Baha'u'llah is clearly saying the order to desecrate the monuments of all other religions is more dear to him than everything that is in the skies and the earth, then there is no big deal in the desecration of Baha'i graves and cemeteries, and Baha'is must not protest this action.
(This does not mean I am in favor of the desecration of any grave or monument)
"It was uttered in the day of the appearance of his Highness A`lā (meaning the Bāb) to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bāb’s religion] and verified it."
`Abdu’l-Bahā, Makātīb (Egypt), vol. 2, p. 266.
http://reference.bahai.org/download/ma2-fa-pdf.zip
Its def made up, did my search on google, reference.bahai.org, and nothing came up. Funny right? You would think it would show up considering Abdul Baha wrote it. All of our writings are clearly listed on the reference.bahai.org site, and if it is not, its a lie, or someone made it up trying to corrupt our faith, like you. While doing my search, some of your forum posts has came up and I took time to read some of your posts. Your post's and discussions are junk, you claim to have proof about statements regarding our faith, and in reality your full of it. You have a made up PDF file made up by a covenant breaker. Where is at on reference.bahai.org? Oh yea, that's right, because its non accurate. No other listing besides that PDF file? Strange right? Please bro, your on this site to cause problems and strife. All your posts are garbage, quoting "so called" writings outside reference.bahai.org. You're a joke.
 
Old 05-08-2014, 10:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Baha'is stand shoulder to shoulder with all faiths, to protect the innocent etc of those who would oppress.

To try and slander is always the weapon of those who oppose the faith of God.
Enjoy yourself my friend by your actions you only confirm for me and others that this is God's Faith for this day.
Show me the slander. I merely translated a quote from Abdu'l-Baha in which he had spoken about the savage laws of the Bab.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aidan View Post
You destroy my peace by promoting a covenant breaker website Harry. I am greatly distressed about their spiritual and mental well-being. By your action you have lost my respect
Make an effort to investigate the truth. Do not dismiss my words or that website on the basis that someone claims they are covenant breakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdef View Post
"It was uttered in the day of the appearance of his Highness A`lā (meaning the Bāb) to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bāb’s religion] and verified it."
`Abdu’l-Bahā, Makātīb (Egypt), vol. 2, p. 266.
http://reference.bahai.org/download/ma2-fa-pdf.zip
Its def made up, did my search on google, reference.bahai.org, and nothing came up. Funny right? You would think it would show up considering Abdul Baha wrote it. All of our writings are clearly listed on the reference.bahai.org site, and if it is not, its a lie, or someone made it up trying to corrupt our faith, like you. While doing my search, some of your forum posts has came up and I took time to read some of your posts. Your post's and discussions are junk, you claim to have proof about statements regarding our faith, and in reality your full of it. You have a made up PDF file made up by a covenant breaker. Where is at on reference.bahai.org? Oh yea, that's right, because its non accurate. No other listing besides that PDF file? Strange right? Please bro, your on this site to cause problems and strife. All your posts are garbage, quoting "so called" writings outside reference.bahai.org. You're a joke.
I'm a joke? I have provided you with the link from reference.bahai.org and you have repeated it in your quote, then you claim that it does not exist and I made it up? Follow the illustrated guide below:

1-First go to the Farsi section of reference.bahai.org and download the book:



2-Open the book and scroll down to page 265:



I just can't believe you guys. Just because the UHJ doesn't tell you what is written in your own books and makes no effort to translate them, you accuse me of being a joke and posting garbage!
 
Old 05-09-2014, 01:56 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdef View Post
All your posts are garbage, quoting "so called" writings outside reference.bahai.org.
"If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 15)

The text that was quoted is from Abdu'l-Baha, and is on the Bahai Reference library site, in Persian. The translation was not great, but not so inaccurate as to distort the basic meaning. Abdu'l-Baha is describing the extreme nature of the laws of the Bayan. The context is a discussion of the way outward laws change in each age: he outlines the character (not the actual details) of the law of each religion in a few lines, and then goes on to give a character sketch of the laws of Baha'u'llah. In this tablet, Abdu'l-Baha is in fact quoting some words of Baha'u'llah, which Shoghi Effendi has translated:

"In every Dispensation," He moreover has written, "the light of Divine Guidance has been focused upon one central theme.... In this wondrous Revelation, this glorious century, the foundation of the Faith of God, and the distinguishing feature of His Law, is the consciousness of the oneness of mankind."
(Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 119)

The lines h123 quoted are part of the " ... " that Shoghi Effendi did not quote in this extract. So it's absolutely genuine. The spin h123 put on it consisted of leaving out the context, reading the fragment literally, and adding a lot of outrage. Someone could achieve the same outrage by a shorter route, by quoting the Aqdas on "burning the arsonist" and taking it literally and out of context. The problem is an initial bias (h123 was looking for something to be outraged about), and scriptural literalism, which is a problem in every religious community today because of the predominance of the scientific mode of reading. Scripture must be read through the eyes of poetry.

Last edited by Sen McGlinn; 05-09-2014 at 01:58 AM.
 
Old 05-09-2014, 03:22 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn View Post
"If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 15)

The text that was quoted is from Abdu'l-Baha, and is on the Bahai Reference library site, in Persian. The translation was not great, but not so inaccurate as to distort the basic meaning. Abdu'l-Baha is describing the extreme nature of the laws of the Bayan. The context is a discussion of the way outward laws change in each age: he outlines the character (not the actual details) of the law of each religion in a few lines, and then goes on to give a character sketch of the laws of Baha'u'llah. In this tablet, Abdu'l-Baha is in fact quoting some words of Baha'u'llah, which Shoghi Effendi has translated:

"In every Dispensation," He moreover has written, "the light of Divine Guidance has been focused upon one central theme.... In this wondrous Revelation, this glorious century, the foundation of the Faith of God, and the distinguishing feature of His Law, is the consciousness of the oneness of mankind."
(Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 119)

The lines h123 quoted are part of the " ... " that Shoghi Effendi did not quote in this extract. So it's absolutely genuine. The spin h123 put on it consisted of leaving out the context, reading the fragment literally, and adding a lot of outrage. Someone could achieve the same outrage by a shorter route, by quoting the Aqdas on "burning the arsonist" and taking it literally and out of context. The problem is an initial bias (h123 was looking for something to be outraged about), and scriptural literalism, which is a problem in every religious community today because of the predominance of the scientific mode of reading. Scripture must be read through the eyes of poetry.
Sen,

1-You accuse me of putting spin and outrage on the quote. I don't quite understand what you mean by spin, but the orders by the Bab to behead, massacre, burn the books, and destroy the monuments of non-Babis are very outrageous indeed.

2-Accusing me of taking the quote out of context is futile for the context I was referring to were the Bab's outrageous laws and orders not the words of `Abdu'l-Baha. These orders are the Bab's orders whether you like it or not. I could have provided you with some direct quotes from the books of the Bab but since `Abdu'l-Baha had clearly stated these laws in a book that was available on reference.bahai.org I refrained from doing so.

3-Scripture must be read through the eyes of reason and common sense, not poetry. I am willing to have a separate one-on-one discussion with you regarding this matter.
 
Old 05-09-2014, 04:21 AM   #22
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Limbs of mankind must quake in order to rise.
 
Old 05-09-2014, 07:39 AM   #23
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h123

I will pray for you my friend, for to continue as you do will have an accounting one day.
The day you stand before Allah and account for your actions.

peace and love to you
 
Old 05-09-2014, 07:53 AM   #24
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h123

A small part of the Fire Tablet for you.

Quote:
This Face is hidden in the dust of slander: Where are the breezes of Thy compassion, O Mercy of the worlds?

The robe of sanctity is sullied by the people of deceit: Where is the vesture of Thy holiness, O Adorner of the worlds?

The sea of grace is stilled for what the hands of men have wrought: Where are the waves of Thy bounty, O Desire of the worlds?

The door leading to the Divine Presence is locked through the tyranny of Thy foes: Where is the key of Thy bestowal, O Unlocker of the worlds?

The leaves are yellowed by the poisoning winds of sedition: Where is the downpour of the clouds of Thy bounty, O Giver of the worlds?

The universe is darkened with the dust of sin: Where are the breezes of Thy forgiveness, O Forgiver of the worlds?

This Youth is lonely in a desolate land: Where is the rain of Thy heavenly grace, O Bestower of the worlds?

O Supreme Pen, We have heard Thy most sweet call in the eternal realm: Give Thou ear unto what the Tongue of Grandeur uttereth, O Wronged One of the worlds?

Were it not for the cold, how would the heat of Thy words prevail, O Expounder of the worlds?

Were it not for calamity, how would the sun of Thy patience shine, O Light of the worlds?

Lament not because of the wicked. Thou wert created to bear and endure, O Patience of the worlds.

How sweet was Thy dawning on the horizon of the Covenant among the stirrers of sedition, and Thy yearning after God, O Love of the worlds.

By Thee the banner of independence was planted on the highest peaks, and the sea of bounty surged, O Rapture of the worlds.

By Thine aloneness the Sun of Oneness shone, and by Thy banishment the land of Unity was adorned. Be patient, O Thou Exile of the worlds.

We have made abasement the garment of glory, and affliction the adornment of Thy temple, O Pride of the worlds.

Thou seest the hearts are filled with hate, and to overlook is Thine, O Thou Concealer of the sins of the worlds.

When the swords flash, go forward! When the shafts fly, press onward! O Thou Sacrifice of the worlds.

Dost Thou wail, or shall I wail? Rather shall I weep at the fewness of Thy champions, O Thou Who hast caused the wailing of the worlds.

Verily, I have heard Thy call, O All-Glorious Beloved; and now is the face of Baha flaming with the heat of tribulation and with the fire of Thy shining word, and He hath risen up in faithfulness at the place of sacrifice, looking toward Thy pleasure, O Ordainer of the worlds.
 
Old 05-09-2014, 08:30 AM   #25
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Recalling some of those who were hanged in 1983...

I'm unsure how many of the women who were hanged in 1983 were buried in the cemetery in Shiraz but as the graves have been desecrated it is good to remember them at this time.. their names are supplied here and some of their stories are attached:

Mrs. Nusrat Yalda'i

Mrs. 'Izzat Ishraqi

Miss Ruya Ishraqi

Miss Zarrin Muqimi

Mrs. Tahirih Siyavushi

Miss Shirin Dalvand

Miss Akhtar Sabit

Miss Mahshid Nirumand

Miss Simin Sabiri

Mrs. Tuba Za'irpour

Read their stories at

"The Story of Mona 1965-1983, part 5"

Last edited by arthra; 05-09-2014 at 08:33 AM.
 
Old 05-09-2014, 11:09 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra View Post
I'm unsure how many of the women who were hanged in 1983 were buried in the cemetery in Shiraz but as the graves have been desecrated it is good to remember them at this time.. their names are supplied here and some of their stories are attached:

Mrs. Nusrat Yalda'i

Mrs. 'Izzat Ishraqi

Miss Ruya Ishraqi

Miss Zarrin Muqimi

Mrs. Tahirih Siyavushi

Miss Shirin Dalvand

Miss Akhtar Sabit

Miss Mahshid Nirumand

Miss Simin Sabiri

Mrs. Tuba Za'irpour

Read their stories at

"The Story of Mona 1965-1983, part 5"
Loss of innocent life is always a matter of sorrow. Unfortunately I have no means of providing the names of the countless non-Babis that were ordered to be massacred and beheaded by the orders of the Bab. I am sure they too had stories to tell.
 
Old 05-09-2014, 12:22 PM   #27
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Yep you are joke, no one cares about your b.s findings. They are all b.s, and false. I can make numerous posts attacking Shia Islam, but I don't, why? Because the Bahai faith teaches us to be followers of every religion. But I will not stand for lies, and slander of the bahai faith, when you do not know anything about our faith.
 
Old 05-09-2014, 12:34 PM   #28
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H123,

Thanks for the snapshots showing the exact location of the Texts.

All of us Bahais should learn to read Persian and Arabic regardless of what our mother-tongue is so we can read Bahaullah and Abdu'l-Baha in their original.
 
Old 05-10-2014, 02:07 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by h123 View Post
Loss of innocent life is always a matter of sorrow. Unfortunately I have no means of providing the names of the countless non-Babis that were ordered to be massacred and beheaded by the orders of the Bab.
Never mind the names, just tell us when this occurred, and where, and we can research it for ourselves
 
Old 05-10-2014, 04:23 AM   #30
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Never mind the names, just tell us when this occurred, and where, and we can research it for ourselves
Baha'u'llah firmly believes that this occurred. When he wants to refer to the Babis he uses the same words that `Abdu'l-Baha used to describe the orders of the Bab but in this case he calls the Babis "unbelievers and faithless" because they have not accepted Baha'u'llah's authority:

"The unbelievers and the faithless have set their minds on four things: first, the shedding of blood; second, the burning of books; third, the shunning of the followers of other religions; fourth, the extermination of other communities and groups. Now however, through the strengthening grace and potency of the Word of God these four barriers have been demolished, these clear injunctions have been obliterated from the Tablet and brutal dispositions have been transmuted into spiritual attributes."
Bahā’u’llāh, Tablets of Bahā’u’llāh Revealed After the Kitāb-i-Aqdas, p. 91.

The sentence: "these clear injunctions have been obliterated from the Tablet and brutal dispositions have been transmuted into spiritual attributes" clearly shows that these were divine orders.

And by the way I have quoted the official Baha'i translation which has multiple errors. For instance "zarb al-riqab" that has been translated to "shedding of blood" must be "beheading". You can find the original Farsi at p. 52 of Majmū`ihī az alwāḥ jamāl aqdas abhā ki ba`d az kitāb Aqdas nāzil shude:

"معرضين و منکرين به چهار کلمه متمسّک اوّل
کلمه فضرب الرّقاب و ثانی حرق کتب و ثالث اجتناب از ملل اخری و رابع
فنای احزاب حال از فضل و اقتدار کلمه الهی اين چهار سدّ عظيم از ميان بر
داشته شد و اين چهار امر مبين از لوح محو گشت و صفات سبُعی را به
صفات روحانی تبديل نمود
"
 
Old 05-10-2014, 04:28 AM   #31
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Islamic peace is also not a "peace" unless other nations are subdued to Islam (killed or surrendered and paying jizya). This is a Quranic teaching.

Christianity also has the "rule of the sword" but Christians are not really following New Testament teaching anymore and Jesus was not as specific and organized as Muhammad. (Matt. 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword." Incorrectly, Everything about the birth and resurrection and miracles of Jesus are assumed to be literal, and all his teachings are assumed to be symbolic! You think President George Bush and his advisors don't know the Bible?)

Baha'u'llah specifically abolishes the "rule of the sword" found in previous religions. Beheading is a prime example of use of the sword (here it says body).

"Unsheathing his sword and spurring on his charger into the midst of the enemy, Mulla Husayn pursued, with marvellous intrepidity, the assailant of his fallen companion. His opponent, who was afraid to face him, took refuge behind a tree and, holding aloft his musket, sought to shield himself. Mulla Husayn immediately recognised him, rushed forward, and with a single stroke of his sword cut across the trunk of the tree, the barrel of the musket, and the body of his adversary. " - Dawn-Breakers

He is reported to have quoted, when informed of the news, the following verse of the Qur'an: "So it was not ye who slew them, but God who slew them; and those shafts were God's, not thine! He would make trial of the faithful by a gracious trial from Himself: verily, God heareth, knoweth. This befell, that God might also bring to naught the craft of the infidels."

Last edited by differenceisgood; 05-10-2014 at 04:48 AM.
 
Old 05-10-2014, 04:51 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h123 View Post
"The unbelievers and the faithless have set their minds on four things: first, the shedding of blood; second, the burning of books; third, the shunning of the followers of other religions; fourth, the extermination of other communities and groups. Now however, through the strengthening grace and potency of the Word of God these four barriers have been demolished, these clear injunctions have been obliterated from the Tablet and brutal dispositions have been transmuted into spiritual attributes."
Bahā’u’llāh, Tablets of Bahā’u’llāh Revealed After the Kitāb-i-Aqdas, p. 91.

The sentence: "these clear injunctions have been obliterated from the Tablet and brutal dispositions have been transmuted into spiritual attributes" clearly shows that these were divine orders.
Dear H123,

I never recognized this before. Thanks for pointing it out to me, it is very clear now. "Obliterated from the Tablet" is key.

You are still an animal and a beast, you lack knowledge and are unreasonable, and abide in the pit of hell.

Last edited by differenceisgood; 05-10-2014 at 05:00 AM.
 
Old 05-10-2014, 06:01 AM   #33
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So you can't actually name any instance when the Bab ordered someone to be beheaded? But you seemed so confident in asserting that it had happened
 
Old 05-10-2014, 09:14 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h123 View Post
"The unbelievers and the faithless have set their minds on four things: first, the shedding of blood; second, the burning of books; third, the shunning of the followers of other religions; fourth, the extermination of other communities and groups. Now however, through the strengthening grace and potency of the Word of God these four barriers have been demolished, these clear injunctions have been obliterated from the Tablet and brutal dispositions have been transmuted into spiritual attributes."
Bahā’u’llāh, Tablets of Bahā’u’llāh Revealed After the Kitāb-i-Aqdas, p. 91.
Now one could say that this quote is a correct likeness of Shia Islam at this time in history, sad is it not.
But then as Baha'is we still extend to these people love and friendship.
Why do we do this, because of the teachings of Baha'u'llah.
Peace and love to you.
 
Old 05-10-2014, 09:30 AM   #35
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Yes BlinkeyBill, great point.

“No pleasure has been created in the world greater than listening to the verses [brought by Baha’u’llah] and understanding their meanings and not objecting to or questioning any of the words and comparing them with the words of others,” Baha’u’llah, Kitab-i-Badī` (Tehran: n.p., n.d.), p. 145.
 
Old 05-10-2014, 09:54 AM   #36
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Greetings Arthra,

Thank you for linking to this subject matter. It certainly takes one back to 1983, which is probably one of the key moments that permitted the world to view the persecution of Bahá’ís in Iran during modern times in a new light.

As some here might recall, there was a musical video dedicated to Mona, the youngest lady to be executed. Based on recent events it might be worth reminding ourselves of this, because it begins in a representation of the Bahá’í cemetery in Shiraz.

DOUG CAMERON - MONA WITH THE CHILDREN - BAHÁ'í - YouTube

With regards to the discussion by some users on the Báb’s Writings, it is known that it is extremely difficult for anyone to read the symbolic language employed by the Báb, even if the reader has detailed comprehension of Arabic. Therefore it would be a mistake to assume that anyone that expresses difficulties with them are merely seeking to misrepresent them because all people employ their own forms of hermeneutics. Because of this it is very easy to become confused over apparent contradictions in religious works. Therefore native Arabic readers can easily become frustrated with the explanations offered by non-native Arabic and non-Arabic readers. Just because a person appears hostile to the Bahá’í Faith does not mean that they are.

If anyone here would like to examine material that looks more into this subject matter in the English language you would do well to read Gate of the Heart: Understanding the Writings of the Bab (Baha'i Studies) by Nader Saiedi. Below is an element taken from Saiedi’s introduction. It may be of use in regards to understanding the issue being addressed here:

“Even for those who read the original languages, the Báb's writings present formidable challenges. The complexity and the esoteric character of those texts has understandably baffled readers and translators. Moreover, the language the Báb uses is unique to Him. The majority of His writings are in Arabic but a significant number are in Persian; both His Arabic and Persian, however, are linguistically innovative and non-standard, and deliberately so. This point has been lost on many readers, who have all too quickly and simplistically attributed deviation from convention to mere error. Yet, more important than the linguistic style, it is the complexity of the ideas, their philosophical and mystical depth, as well as the multi-faceted symbolic character and highly subtle rhetorical coding of the Báb's discourse that make these texts so difficult to understand, but that also account for their richness, beauty, and fascination.

One notable aspect of these texts' difficulty - an aspect which at first glance may seem arcane and esoteric - is their extensive use of the symbolism of letters and numbers. In Arabic, as in Hebrew and other ancient languages, each letter has a numerical value (the numbers were originally written as their letter equivalents, similar to roman numerals). The use of letter-number symbolism in mystical texts is often associated with the gematria of the Cahala, but it was also an important component of esoteric Islamic traditions and was widely practised in Shaykhi circles. Over the centuries, the fact that the surihs of the Qur'an usually begin with a series of disconnected letters led many Muslims to believe that those mysterious letters stood for secret knowledge. One of the signs expected of the Qa'im was that he would unravel the mystery concealed within those letters and would disclose the inner meanings of the Holy Text. Hence, in accordance with such millenarian expectations, as well as to convey multiple levels of meaning and allusion, the Báb often employs letter-number equivalence as one of the many symbolic modes of His discourse.

Another aspect contributing to the difficulty of reading the Báb's writings is that they are heavily intertextual: the Báb often employs quotations from and allusions to the Qur'an and Islamic Traditions, which are so interwoven into the fabric of His text as to make them indistinguishable from His own words. This stylistic feature in itself is highly meaningful and symbolic. Intimate knowledge of the Qur'an is required to identify those allusions and quotations, but knowledge of their traditional meanings is only the first step toward understanding their meaning within the Báb's texts. The presence of references to esoteric terms and concepts from Shaykhi discourse further adds to the challenge of understanding the Báb's works. Yet, the most important reason for the complexity and difficulty of His writings is the intense creativity and symbolic nature of the Báb's thought. The meaning of individual texts cannot be understood except within the context of the totality of the Báb's own writings; when one single text or passage is extracted from that totality and read out of context, it becomes vulnerable to serious misinterpretation and even reversal of meaning. For all these reasons, the writings of the Báb have presented a daunting challenge to readers.”


It should in all fairness also be pointed out that not all official Bahá’í websites are as well constructed or maintained as some believers like to believe. This is because key guidance notes are often omitted or placed elsewhere and this can often lead to confusion and misunderstanding for readers of any language. This of course makes it an official matter and it is not really possible to resolve this on an unofficial website.

Like Sen McGlinn, I would certain welcome the names of anyone whom the Báb allegedly had ordered to be beheaded. But if none can be found I fully recognise why such confusion can exist. The symbolic works of the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh cannot be penetrated by any language. This is why reading them in their native tongue can offer no real insights or understanding unless one understands how to decode them. While this process has begun it will take many future generations to unravel them and even then it will not penetrate the closed prophesies until the appointed time because only the future Manifestation of God will be able to do this. This will be the One whom Bahá’ís in the future will persecute.

Earth
 
Old 05-10-2014, 10:13 AM   #37
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No future Manifestations will appear (both Prophethood and Messengership came to an end) and even if they do they will be under the shadow of Baha'u'llah, and they will not be persecuted, and the Supreme Manifestations will be reflections of the glory of Baha'u'llah, just as the past Manifestations are. The Suriy-i-Haykal was revealed twice and the reference to the persecution of the next Manifestation was removed by Baha'u'llah in the second version, and was changed to a reference to Himself in the second version. There is no night after this Day of Baha'u'llah as stated in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, for "Baha" means that the Sun is not necessary - the Splendor is so bright the Sun has gone dark in comparison. "And the Sun shall be darkened" - Jesus

Secondly, people should be encouraged to learn to read Arabic and Persian texts as each individual human being is capable of understanding the Word of God by themselves. A translation can never capture the nuance of the original Text.

The Word of God is extremely easy to understand. No knowledge of grammar and history is required. The Word of God speaks to me just as I speak to myself, it is natural, obvious, unrehearsed, contradictory, full of knowledge yet unlearned. A lion always hunts other animals. This is natural. May God protect us from His Divine Lion. A tornado levels homes, this is natural, so may God protect us from the blowing winds of His Divine Wrath.

--
remember, truth is contradictory: God cannot come to Earth but He does; God cannot be born but He was

Last edited by differenceisgood; 05-10-2014 at 12:19 PM.
 
Old 05-10-2014, 11:47 AM   #38
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Like Sen McGlinn, I would certain welcome the names of anyone whom the Báb allegedly had ordered to be beheaded. But if none can be found I fully recognise why such confusion can exist.
Earth
In all legislative systems, you do not see the names of specific people inscribed in the law. For instance, the law says "he who runs the red light must be fined or arrested." It does not say "if Harry or Mathew run the red light then arrest or fine them."

Likewise, the Bab gave the aforementioned order about all non-Babis, not just one or two specific people that he had mentioned by name. You do not see names mentioned in his other similar writings either:

"He who acquires a position of ruling is a manifestation of God’s wrath and if possible for him, must not leave on earth anyone but the Bābīs."
The Bāb, Lauḥ haykal al-dīn, unit 4, chap. al-Bahā.

"Make everyone accept the [religion of] Bayān and do not accept from them jewels that would amount to the whole earth as payment so that they are excused from becoming Bābīs."
The Bāb, Lauḥ haykal al-dīn, unit 5, chap. al-Lād.

"The fifth chapter of the fifth unit which is about the decree of taking the property of those who do not believe in [the religion] of Bayan and giving it back if they become believers in this religion, except in the lands where taking [property] is not possible."
The Bāb, Farsi Bayān, unit 5, chap. 5.

Last edited by h123; 05-10-2014 at 11:49 AM.
 
Old 05-10-2014, 01:03 PM   #39
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In all legislative systems, you do not see the names of specific people inscribed in the law. For instance, the law says "he who runs the red light must be fined or arrested." It does not say "if Harry or Mathew run the red light then arrest or fine them."

Likewise, the Bab gave the aforementioned order about all non-Babis, not just one or two specific people that he had mentioned by name. You do not see names mentioned in his other similar writings either:

"He who acquires a position of ruling is a manifestation of God’s wrath and if possible for him, must not leave on earth anyone but the Bābīs."
The Bāb, Lauḥ haykal al-dīn, unit 4, chap. al-Bahā.

"Make everyone accept the [religion of] Bayān and do not accept from them jewels that would amount to the whole earth as payment so that they are excused from becoming Bābīs."
The Bāb, Lauḥ haykal al-dīn, unit 5, chap. al-Lād.

"The fifth chapter of the fifth unit which is about the decree of taking the property of those who do not believe in [the religion] of Bayan and giving it back if they become believers in this religion, except in the lands where taking [property] is not possible."
The Bāb, Farsi Bayān, unit 5, chap. 5.
Even if these are from legitimate sources and translations, we are Baha'is. We are not Babis. You know Islam had harsh Laws too. Its duration was 1260 years. Then the Bab'i Laws substituted Islam's Sharia. The duration of Babi Laws was 9 years. Then after that, Baha'u'llah's mission started with new Laws that gradually was revealed. As far as I know most of the Babi Laws did not even put to practice, due to its short duration. I never read that Babis forced others or killed others to convert them. You are welcome to show historical sources if you believe they did. But even if they did (which they didn't) it was the Law of God to be followed, because the Muslims had risen against the Religion of God, but as regards to destroying the Baha'i cemeteries, according to which law this was done?

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 05-10-2014 at 01:11 PM.
 
Old 05-10-2014, 01:58 PM   #40
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A transition from outright denial to approval:

First it was claimed, that the Bab's laws that I had mentioned were lies and I was posting garbage and b/s.
Then they were accepted but I was accused of distorting the translation.
Then the translation was verified but it was claimed that you have to show us a direct order from the Bab in which he names someone to be killed.
And now "InvestigateTruth" is telling us the laws are no big deal and were merely the orders of God that must be followed.
 
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