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Old 08-26-2015, 07:34 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
Theists and non-theists simply are not equal. If they would be equal, the same name could be used for both.

You are trivializing theism if you equate theists and non-theists.
Dear Sophia,

I was not talking about Theists and non-Theists (a distinction which, by the way, I'm entirely indifferent to). What I was referring to was your assumption that believing that a certain Path, a particular Manifestation somehow is superior to or more complete than others necessarily must lead to boosting the ego of the adherents, very much in the same way as - as the saying goes - the camel looks so aloof because the Muslims know 99 names for God, but only the camel knows the hundredth.

Not so in the Bahá'í Faith - or at least it shouldn't be. Our task is not to walk around with condescending attitudes looking down upon the others, but rather to serve others.

gnat
 
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Old 08-28-2015, 07:48 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
I was not talking about Theists and non-Theists (a distinction which, by the way, I'm entirely indifferent to). What I was referring to was your assumption that believing that a certain Path, a particular Manifestation somehow is superior to or more complete than others necessarily must lead to boosting the ego of the adherents, very much in the same way as - as the saying goes - the camel looks so aloof because the Muslims know 99 names for God, but only the camel knows the hundredth.
I don't know how come several of you keep interpreting my words this way.
And what you purport to be my assumption, isn't my assumption.


I'm saying that when a person knows which religion is the right one, or the superior one,

this simply means that this person is superior; as otherwise, they couldn't have come to that knowledge.

The average Joe doesn't know which religion is the right one, or the superior one. Bceause the average Joe doesn't have the ability to discern which religion is the right one, or the superior one,

Someone who knows which religion is the right one, or the superior one,
is superior to the average Joe.
 
Old 08-28-2015, 08:16 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
I don't know how come several of you keep interpreting my words this way.
And what you purport to be my assumption, isn't my assumption.


I'm saying that when a person knows which religion is the right one, or the superior one,

this simply means that this person is superior; as otherwise, they couldn't have come to that knowledge.

The average Joe doesn't know which religion is the right one, or the superior one. Bceause the average Joe doesn't have the ability to discern which religion is the right one, or the superior one,

Someone who knows which religion is the right one, or the superior one,
is superior to the average Joe.
Yes, in reality, I have to agree with you.
Perhaps, if a person thinks, he found truth, the best religion, he may feel superiour and look down to others who did not find the truth.
However, I am not in the heart of every Bahai, to see if this is always true or not.
However if a Baha'I feels supperior, because he is a Baha'I, this is against the teachings of Baha'u'llah.
And I tell you why,

Baha'u'llah wrote:

"He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner, at the hour of death, attained to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the celestial Concourse. And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul’s ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire."


Now, do you think, if a Baha'I believes in these words of Baha'u'llah and takes it as truth, can he really feel supperior to others?

It just means, that, even 'I', who is a believer, and even you, if 'you' are an ubeliever and sinner, our end can be changed. I may end up, becoming unbeliever, going to Fire, and you may end up a true believer, attaining everlasting life.
Then how can I feel supperior if this is possible.
Tests of God, can be extremely difficault. It can cause a devoted believer, to become doubter.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 08-28-2015 at 08:24 AM.
 
Old 08-28-2015, 08:19 AM   #44
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Please read my post again ...
 
Old 08-28-2015, 08:46 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
Please read my post again ...
Yes, your message is clear, and I think what I posted, clearly shows, a Baha'I who truly follows Baha'u'llah, cannot feel supperior to others, and I put a question there, if you want, you can answer that question.

Moreover, Baha'u'llah also says, True understanding, has nothing to do with Learning. It only and only has to do with having a pure heart. And one of the signs of pure heart, is a true humbleness, not merely pretending to be humble.
I think A Baha'I is humble for the reason I quoted from Baha'u'llah before.
A Baha'I, sees nothing of himself, but everything from God. Even such true understanding, is believed to have its source from God, and not the individual.
Light is knowledge. In every clean Heart it is reflected, it illuminates. That light is only from God, not us. We need to clean our heart. That Light can be seen in an average joe, even he may have no university degree. On the other hand, a person, with 3 phd degree, may not be able to reflect the light of God.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 08-28-2015 at 08:53 AM.
 
Old 08-28-2015, 08:53 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Yes, your message is clear
I'm not sure you understand what I'm talking about.

I'm _not_ talking about feeling proud _after_ having figured out which religion is the right/superior one.


I'm talking about the _prerequisites_ for figuring out which religion is the right/superior one to begin with.



I don't know how come several posters here don't see this point or ignore it ...
 
Old 08-28-2015, 09:03 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
I'm not sure you understand what I'm talking about.

I'm _not_ talking about feeling proud _after_ having figured out which religion is the right/superior one.


I'm talking about the _prerequisites_ for figuring out which religion is the right/superior one to begin with.



I don't know how come several posters here don't see this point or ignore it ...
Ok, the prerequisites, according to Baha'u'llah is this lengthy writing:

"But, O my brother, when a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading to the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse and purify his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments. He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth. Even as thou dost witness in this 193 day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the divine mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and error. That seeker must at all times put his trust in God, must renounce the peoples of the earth, detach himself from the world of dust, and cleave unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords. He must never seek to exalt himself above any one, must wash away from the tablet of his heart every trace of pride and vainglory, must cling unto patience and resignation, observe silence, and refrain from idle talk. For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century.

That seeker should also regard backbiting as grievous error, and keep himself aloof from its dominion, inasmuch as backbiting quencheth the light of the heart, and extinguisheth the life of the soul. He should be content with little, and be freed from all inordinate desire. He should treasure the companionship of those that have renounced the world, and regard avoidance of boastful and worldly people a precious benefit. At the dawn of every day he should commune with God, and with all his soul persevere in the quest of his Beloved. He should consume every wayward thought with the flame of His loving mention, and, with the swiftness of lightning, pass by all else save Him. He should succour the dispossessed, and never withhold his favour from the destitute. He should show kindness to animals, how much more unto his fellow-man, to him who is endowed with the power of utterance. He should not hesitate to offer up his life for his Beloved, nor allow the censure of the people to turn him away from the Truth. He should not wish for others that which he doth not wish for himself, nor promise that which he doth not fulfil. With all his heart should the seeker avoid fellowship with evil doers, and pray for the remission of their sins. He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner, at the hour of death, attained to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the celestial Concourse. And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul’s ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire. Our purpose in revealing these convincing and weighty utterances is to impress upon the seeker that he should regard all else beside God as transient, and count all things save Him, Who is the Object of all adoration, as utter nothingness.

These are among the attributes of the exalted, and constitute the hall-mark of the spiritually-minded. They have already been mentioned in connection with the requirements of the wayfarers that tread the Path of Positive Knowledge. When the detached wayfarer and sincere seeker hath fulfilled these essential conditions, then and only then can he be called a true seeker. Whensoever he hath fulfilled the conditions implied in the verse: “Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessing conferred by the words: “In Our ways shall We assuredly guide him.”

Only when the lamp of search, of earnest striving, of longing desire, of passionate devotion, of fervid love, of rapture, and ecstasy, is kindled within the seeker’s heart, and the breeze of His loving-kindness is wafted upon his soul, will the darkness of error be dispelled, the mists of doubts and misgivings be dissipated, and the lights of knowledge and certitude envelop his being. At that hour will the mystic Herald, bearing the joyful tidings of the Spirit, shine forth from the City of God resplendent as the morn, and, through the trumpet-blast of knowledge, will awaken the heart, the soul, and the spirit from the slumber of negligence. Then will the manifold favours and outpouring grace of the holy and everlasting Spirit confer such new life upon the seeker that he will find himself endowed with a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a new mind. He will contemplate the manifest signs of the universe, and will penetrate the hidden mysteries of the soul. Gazing with the eye of God, he will perceive within every atom a door that leadeth him to the stations of absolute certitude. He will discover in all things the mysteries of divine Revelation and the evidences of an everlasting manifestation.

I swear by God! Were he that treadeth the path of guidance and seeketh to scale the heights of righteousness to attain unto this glorious and supreme station, he would inhale at a distance of a thousand leagues the fragrance of God, and would perceive the resplendent morn of a divine Guidance rising above the dayspring of all things. Each and every thing, however small, would be to him a revelation, leading him to his Beloved, the Object of his quest. So great shall be the discernment of this seeker that he will discriminate between truth and falsehood even as he doth distinguish the sun from shadow. If in the uttermost corners of the East the sweet savours of God be wafted, he will assuredly recognize and inhale their fragrance, even though he be dwelling in the uttermost ends of the West. He will likewise clearly distinguish all the signs of God—His wondrous utterances, His great works, and mighty deeds—from the doings, words and ways of men, even as the jeweller who knoweth the gem from the stone, or the man who distinguisheth the spring from autumn and heat from cold. When the channel of the human soul is cleansed of all worldly and impeding attachments, it will unfailingly perceive the breath of the Beloved across immeasurable distances, and will, led by its perfume, attain and enter the City of Certitude. Therein he will discern the wonders of His ancient wisdom, and will perceive all the hidden teachings from 198 the rustling leaves of the Tree—which flourisheth in that City. With both his inner and his outer ear he will hear from its dust the hymns of glory and praise ascending unto the Lord of Lords, and with his inner eye will he discover the mysteries of “return” and “revival.” How unspeakably glorious are the signs, the tokens, the revelations, and splendours which He Who is the King of names and attributes hath destined for that City! The attainment of this City quencheth thirst without water, and kindleth the love of God without fire. Within every blade of grass are enshrined the mysteries of an inscrutable wisdom, and upon every rose-bush a myriad nightingales pour out, in blissful rapture, their melody. Its wondrous tulips unfold the mystery of the undying Fire in the Burning Bush, and its sweet savours of holiness breathe the perfume of the Messianic Spirit. It bestoweth wealth without gold, and conferreth immortality without death. In every leaf ineffable delights are treasured, and within every chamber unnumbered mysteries lie hidden."
 
Old 08-28-2015, 09:40 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Ok, the prerequisites, according to Baha'u'llah is this lengthy writing:
You are putting the cart before the horse ...


What prerequisites must a person have in order to know it is precisely Baha'u'llah's words that he should take to heart, and not someone else's?

Last edited by Sophia; 08-28-2015 at 09:45 AM.
 
Old 08-28-2015, 10:07 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
You are putting the cart before the horse ...


What prerequisites must a person have in order to know it is precisely Baha'u'llah's words that he should take to heart, and not someone else's?
The quote from Baha'u'llah is applicable to recognition of all Manifestations of God.
If a person lived long before Baha'u'llah's time, say at the time of Jesus or Moses, she would need these same prerequisites to be able to recognize the Manifestation of God.

In another words, there is a difference between one who is a member of a religion, because, say, she was born in that religion, or because the majority of the Country follow that religion through immitation, than one who is a true seeker of truth.

The prerequisite as discribed by Baha'u'llah, teach us, if a person's heart is pure and sincerely searches for God, and makes an effort, then God in His ways, shall guide him to Himself. And God, the unknowable Essence, is not accessible, except through His Manifestation.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 08-28-2015 at 10:13 AM.
 
Old 08-28-2015, 10:22 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
I don't know how come several of you keep interpreting my words this way.
And what you purport to be my assumption, isn't my assumption.


I'm saying that when a person knows which religion is the right one, or the superior one,

this simply means that this person is superior; as otherwise, they couldn't have come to that knowledge.

The average Joe doesn't know which religion is the right one, or the superior one. Bceause the average Joe doesn't have the ability to discern which religion is the right one, or the superior one,

Someone who knows which religion is the right one, or the superior one,
is superior to the average Joe.
Only God knows who is the better person. You don't become a better person simply by reading a certain book or adhering to a certain creed. Only practice might give a hint - the ability to put virtues into practice, such as
assertiveness
caring
cleanliness
compassion
confidence
consideration
courage
courtesy
creativity
detachment
determination
enthusiasm
excellence
faithfulness
flexibility
forgiveness
friendliness
generosity
gentleness
helpfulness
honesty
honor
humility
idealism
joyfulness
justice
kindness
love
loyalty
mercy
moderation
modesty
obedience
orderliness
patience
peacefulness
prayerfulness
purposefulness
reliability
respect
responsibility
reverence
self-discipline
service
steadfastness
tact
thankfulness
tolerance
trust
trustworthiness
truthfulness
unity

Best from

gnat

Last edited by gnat; 08-28-2015 at 10:43 AM.
 
Old 08-28-2015, 10:41 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
The quote from Baha'u'llah is applicable to recognition of all Manifestations of God.
No, it is so only from the perspective of someone who is already a Baha'i.


Quote:
If a person lived long before Baha'u'llah's time, say at the time of Jesus or Moses, she would need these same prerequisites to be able to recognize the Manifestation of God.
How can we possibly know that??
 
Old 08-28-2015, 10:44 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
Only God knows who is the better person. You don't become a better person simply by reading a certain book or adhering to a certain creed.
Sorry, but you seem intent on not understanding me ...


Suppose that knowledge of which religion is the right/superior one is like a distant island.

In order to get to that island, you need some kind of vehicle, like a boat or something.

In terms of this analogy, what is that vehicle? Some kind of ability to figure out which religion is the right/superior one.

A person who has that vehicle is superior to the person who doesn't have it.
 
Old 08-28-2015, 10:54 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
No, it is so only from the perspective of someone who is already a Baha'i.
Have you actually read that lengthy quote? I think it is clear.
What Baha'u'llah says, if I briefly say my understanding, is that, a true seeker must be a person with such characteristics as being Kind to others including animals, avoids backbiting, is not greedy and worldy, is sincere.... Only such person can find God's Truth.

It makes perfect sense isn't it?

How could a person, who is cruel to animals, backbites, is greedy about the materialistic things, is after Lust, and is not sincere, can possibly find God, who is Eternal Truth?
Should not be a difference between these two? How could it be even fair?



Quote:
How can we possibly know that??
Because that is what Baha'u'llah says. Is it possible that Baha'u'llah, Manifestation of God, gives us a false or mistake statement?
Now, you may want to ask, 'what evidence is there that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God, so I may trust Him?, right?

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 08-28-2015 at 10:56 AM.
 
Old 08-28-2015, 10:54 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
Sorry, but you seem intent on not understanding me ...


Suppose that knowledge of which religion is the right/superior one is like a distant island.

In order to get to that island, you need some kind of vehicle, like a boat or something.

In terms of this analogy, what is that vehicle? Some kind of ability to figure out which religion is the right/superior one.

A person who has that vehicle is superior to the person who doesn't have it.
Dear Sophia,

You are a sincere seeker - that's for sure. I owe you an answer in another thread. I just have had zero Internet time in the evenings when I have more time to step back and reflect deeper on a subject.

There is much to what you are saying: the person who has that vehicle indeed has superior qualities.

The Bahá'í view is that inside every person there is a seed that needs to be nurtured in order to grow. In that sense one could say that proper training and education since childhood is that vehicle. The virtues mentioned above are the cradle - or the scaffolding if you wish - that helps that seed to grow. If the seed has been allowed to grow somewhere near to its full potential it will recognize the true path once it runs into it.

gnat
(who is fascinated by your insistence - or determination might be the better term)
 
Old 08-28-2015, 11:01 AM   #55
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And, by the way, Investigate Truth and I seem to be saying exactly the same thing, but in different languages.

gnat
 
Old 08-28-2015, 11:56 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
You are putting the cart before the horse ...


What prerequisites must a person have in order to know it is precisely Baha'u'llah's words that he should take to heart, and not someone else's?
Sophia - I think you are the most excellent seeker that I have witnessed It does appear that we are misreading the questions

I think also because of this you have the prerequisites required.

I think the answer has been posted to this specific question further back in answers.

It is God that grants that understanding or withholds it, the answers are contained in the passages above.

Now the funny part of this is that I Declared a Baha'i before I was actually a Seeker. I will try to find another perspextive that is also noted as a trigger to Gods blessing. Will wait until I am at the desktop and not the phone

Regards Tony
 
Old 08-28-2015, 12:48 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
I don't know how come several of you keep interpreting my words this way.
And what you purport to be my assumption, isn't my assumption.


I'm saying that when a person knows which religion is the right one, or the superior one,

this simply means that this person is superior; as otherwise, they couldn't have come to that knowledge.

The average Joe doesn't know which religion is the right one, or the superior one. Bceause the average Joe doesn't have the ability to discern which religion is the right one, or the superior one,

Someone who knows which religion is the right one, or the superior one,
is superior to the average Joe.
Dear Sophia - Having read your questions and the answer to the replies, I can see we do supply a view that can be seen like the cart before the horse, as you have said.

I would also agree with your observation that one could see it as a Superior concept. That the Baha'i teachings show us how to approach this matter is indeed not relevant.

Your Average Joe observation is very relevant as history has given us the answer.

You said "Because the average Joe doesn't have the ability to discern which religion is the right one, or the superior one".

Religion has proved in the past that to be different, matter of fact it is usually the Lowly Joe that gets to see the new Revelation First and the Learned Joe as the Last. It is not about worldly Ability. Acquired Learning has proven in History to be one of the greatest veils. The average Joe may be the most easily swayed in any direction

I posted above that God Grants Faith to whosoever He Chooseth and withholds it from whomsoever He pleaseth. Now we can ask why this is so? We are told, (my concept) it is to prove the Power of Gods Word, that the ignorant triumph over the righteous is but justice served, as it is the learned in each age that have diverted the path of truth and led the masses away from the path to God.

Now back to your question - How do you know which is right? We must search is the answer and how do we find I will give these three things for you to consider from the Baha'i Writings.

First what is our Spiritual condition, taken from the first "Hidden Word"

O Son of Spirit!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.


What is the condition to search, taken from the 2nd "Hidden Word"

O Son of Spirit!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.


What may be the trigger, quoted from the "Dawn Breakers" at this page link - Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 582-595

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

So how does "One Know" It is contained within all the answers supplied to you above IMHO.

Ask of God and God alone will help, when we ask of God we must know ourselves or we will not hear the answer. We are death to a lot of the answers

I hope this helps, sorry if I have again not seen the intent of the question - Regards Tony
 
Old 08-28-2015, 01:03 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
Sorry, but you seem intent on not understanding me ...


Suppose that knowledge of which religion is the right/superior one is like a distant island.

In order to get to that island, you need some kind of vehicle, like a boat or something.

In terms of this analogy, what is that vehicle? Some kind of ability to figure out which religion is the right/superior one.

A person who has that vehicle is superior to the person who doesn't have it.
it is rather a lengthy discussion you are having and to tell the truth I didn't read others' answers. so I will tell you of my own opinion.
Baha'is don't believe that their faith is the superior religion BUT that it is the most suitable, the most complete for our times, thus a Baha'i person is not superior by his/her faith BUT he/she is superior in case of the ability to investigate the truth which is in fact not considered as a source of pride because someone who has investigated the truth and has found Baha'i as the true religion of present times, would not consider any person to be inferior to himself.
 
Old 08-28-2015, 02:46 PM   #59
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Bahai

source of pride because someone who has investigated the truth and has found Baha'i as the true religion of present times, would not consider any person to be inferior to himself.[/QUOTE]

Indeed!! For a Bahai feeling superior, their faith is shallow. To really "be..." a Bahai, how can one be anything other than self-effacing.

As to the Bahai Faith being superior religion, this is a misunderstanding of the religion of God, which is in all reality but one religion. That men have mistook this fundamental verity is where all the multitude os sects and division comrs from.

"This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future..."

Baha'u'llah
 
Old 08-28-2015, 02:53 PM   #60
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I know which religion is best for me and therefore, in my opinion is the superior faith as it enhances my relationship with the Almighty better than any other
 
Old 08-28-2015, 02:56 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
Sophia - I think you are the most excellent seeker that I have witnessed It does appear that we are misreading the questions

I think also because of this you have the prerequisites required.

I think the answer has been posted to this specific question further back in answers.

It is God that grants that understanding or withholds it, the answers are contained in the passages above.

Now the funny part of this is that I Declared a Baha'i before I was actually a Seeker. I will try to find another perspextive that is also noted as a trigger to Gods blessing. Will wait until I am at the desktop and not the phone

Regards Tony
Tony will you please clarify how you proclaimed before being a seeker
 
Old 08-28-2015, 04:59 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by aidan View Post
Tony will you please clarify how you proclaimed before being a seeker
Dear Aidan - I was not looking for religion in an shape or form instead I saw it becoming a deception, my Church of England Faith far in the background. My professional Golf Career the aspiration.

Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh was at His Height with His 92 Rolls Royce's and when I heard my spouse had become a Baha'i I wanted to know in no unsure terms who got all the Money. I was not very nice for some time about it.

I was given a book to read God Loves Laughter, I read it to keep my spouse happy. I became a Baha'i as they were nice people and there would be know harm, I basically believed what it and Baha'u'llah was teaching

I think I started the journey of seeking upon reading the 2nd book Thief in the Night, it hit me who and what the claim was about.

Thus why is someone given a Faith when no apparent effort was made???? I look at the Dawn Breakers, Nabils Narrative quote I posted above and if this is so, I do have a small thought, but it is my thought and I think it should remain that way

Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 08-28-2015 at 05:03 PM.
 
Old 08-28-2015, 06:30 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
Dear Aidan - I was not looking for religion in an shape or form ...


I think I started the journey ...


Thus why is someone given a Faith when no apparent effort was made???? I look at the Dawn Breakers, Nabils Narrative quote I posted above and if this is so, I do have a small thought, but it is my thought and I think it should remain that way

Regards Tony
I was search for "It"...

If "It" was out there, then all of the struggle, pain, and suffering of life would be worth it.

If not, then all would be futile, and utterly meangless, without hope...

And it took me ten years to find "It", too!!
 
Old 08-29-2015, 12:59 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Have you actually read that lengthy quote? I think it is clear.
Yes. It's also religion-specific. It's not neutral as far as religions go.

Quote:
What Baha'u'llah says, if I briefly say my understanding, is that, a true seeker must be a person with such characteristics as being Kind to others including animals, avoids backbiting, is not greedy and worldy, is sincere.... Only such person can find God's Truth.
One can find similar descriptions in other theisms. Those theisms, of course, come to the conclusion that it is their doctrine that is the only right one or the most right one.

Quote:
How could a person, who is cruel to animals, backbites, is greedy about the materialistic things, is after Lust, and is not sincere, can possibly find God, who is Eternal Truth?
Should not be a difference between these two? How could it be even fair?
I don't know.

I do wonder whether God prefers people who are aggressive drivers.
Aggressive drivers drive other drivers who are not so aggressive off the road.

My experience is that something similar happens in religion/spirituality. The people who are more aggressive are the ones who get ahead and who get on top. At least in the formal hierarchy -- but why not also in the spiritual one?

The thing is that worldly goodness might not be goodness in God's eyes.

Is the driver who keeps the safety distance, who drives in accordance with posted speed limits, who doesn't cut in in front of others, who tries to accomodate for the mistakes and impertinence of other drivers -- is such a driver not a loser, a weakling?

According to the Traffic Law such a driver might indeed be a conscientious driver.
But in social reality things are different.


Quote:
Because that is what Baha'u'llah says. Is it possible that Baha'u'llah, Manifestation of God, gives us a false or mistake statement?
Now, you may want to ask, 'what evidence is there that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God, so I may trust Him?, right?
I see you started a thread on this, so I'll reply there.
 
Old 08-29-2015, 01:20 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by dale ramsdell View Post
As to the Bahai Faith being superior religion, this is a misunderstanding of the religion of God, which is in all reality but one religion. That men have mistook this fundamental verity is where all the multitude os sects and division comrs from.
I suppose a key factor here is the model of religion that one operates with in one's mind (not rarely, people don't even know they are operating out of such a model of religion).
(The model of religion is what one thinks religion is all about.)

Many people seem to have a model of religion that is in roundabout like this: "Religion is the declaration of ultimate truth. There are many competing religions in the world, but only one can be the truly and fully right one. Being religious is all about belonging to a particular religious community and thinking, feeling, and acting accordingly."

Many religious people think like this.

The question, "Which religion is the right one?" is primarily asked with this model in mind.

Modern Western religiology, sociology, politology, culturology tend to operate with a variation of this model as well.
Because without this model, it is impossible to meaningfully talk about different religions, sects, schools, denominations, and whatever other individual phenomena there may be as far as religious grouping is concerned.


However, it is at least theoretically possible to conceive of entirely different models of religion.

One could, for example, point out that the terms for religious identity are notoriously difficult to define with precision (e.g. What is a "Christian"? What is "Christianity"? People who claim to be "Christians" do not agree on what exactly these terms mean. Similar happens with other terms for religious identity.), and therefore cannot be meaningfully used, so we might as well not use them at all -- if we wish to actually know what we're talking about, that is.
Imagine what that would be like -- to go about one's day without ever using terms like "Christian," "Christianity," "Hinduism," "Hindu," "Buddhism," "Buddhist" etc. etc. and avoiding any conversations where these terms would come up.
 
Old 08-29-2015, 01:20 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
Yes. It's also religion-specific. It's not neutral as far as religions go.


One can find similar descriptions in other theisms. Those theisms, of course, come to the conclusion that it is their doctrine that is the only right one or the most right one.


I don't know.

I do wonder whether God prefers people who are aggressive drivers.
Aggressive drivers drive other drivers who are not so aggressive off the road.

My experience is that something similar happens in religion/spirituality. The people who are more aggressive are the ones who get ahead and who get on top. At least in the formal hierarchy -- but why not also in the spiritual one?

The thing is that worldly goodness might not be goodness in God's eyes.

Is the driver who keeps the safety distance, who drives in accordance with posted speed limits, who doesn't cut in in front of others, who tries to accomodate for the mistakes and impertinence of other drivers -- is such a driver not a loser, a weakling?

According to the Traffic Law such a driver might indeed be a conscientious driver.
But in social reality things are different.



I see you started a thread on this, so I'll reply there.
Thus you found a Faith where aggression and self promotion is forbidden and where there is not "Top" except for 100% Service to all mankind.

A quick search on this Faith will show what happens to those that think this does not apply to them.

Regards Tony
 
Old 08-29-2015, 01:25 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
it is rather a lengthy discussion you are having and to tell the truth I didn't read others' answers. so I will tell you of my own opinion.
Baha'is don't believe that their faith is the superior religion BUT that it is the most suitable, the most complete for our times, thus a Baha'i person is not superior by his/her faith BUT he/she is superior in case of the ability to investigate the truth which is in fact not considered as a source of pride because someone who has investigated the truth and has found Baha'i as the true religion of present times, would not consider any person to be inferior to himself.
The question is:
Did those people who have that superior ability to investigate the truth

have that ability

already before they became Baha'is?


* * *


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
It is God that grants that understanding or withholds it
So the doctrine of several theisms, yes.

But how often does one actually hear that from people?


* * *
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat View Post
I owe you an answer in another thread.
Thanks for remembering. I wondered what happened to that, and am still waiting.


Quote:
There is much to what you are saying: the person who has that vehicle indeed has superior qualities.
Indeed, this is a truism. I wanted someone here to spell it out.


Quote:
(who is fascinated by your insistence - or determination might be the better term)
I was born in the sign of the Taurus ...

Last edited by Sophia; 08-29-2015 at 01:31 AM.
 
Old 08-29-2015, 01:34 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidan View Post
I know which religion is best for me and therefore, in my opinion is the superior faith as it enhances my relationship with the Almighty better than any other
Then you seem to be operating out of a very different model than is usual for many people.

Could you say in brief 1. what do you think religion is all about, and 2. how come there are different religions in the world?
 
Old 08-29-2015, 01:37 AM   #69
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
The question is:
Did those people who have that superior ability to investigate the truth

have that ability

already before they became Baha'is?
Yes we all have the ability.

My inderstanding is We are all told the slate is wiped clean upon the new message. All have no sin until it is committed.

This condition is granted for a short time after the message has been delivered, known as judgment day.

We are also granted other opportunities to wipe the things we have committed in our life, these options come after we believe and follow the requited guidance and undertakenthenrequired actions for this to be considered.

Regards Tony
 
Old 08-29-2015, 03:01 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
The question is:
Did those people who have that superior ability to investigate the truth

have that ability

already before they became Baha'is?
yes they did. in fact they have the ability to investigate the truth while cleaning their minds from all other pre-judgments.
 
Old 08-29-2015, 07:34 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
yes they did. in fact they have the ability to investigate the truth while cleaning their minds from all other pre-judgments.
According to the Writings, all people have the capacity to recognize the Cause of God when it is revealed in a new Revelation. The Bab, referring to Baha'u'llah, wrote:

"For on that Day whatever cause prompteth the believer to believe in Him, the same will also be available to the unbeliever."
 
Old 08-29-2015, 08:14 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
I don't know how come several of you keep interpreting my words this way.
And what you purport to be my assumption, isn't my assumption.


I'm saying that when a person knows which religion is the right one, or the superior one,

this simply means that this person is superior; as otherwise, they couldn't have come to that knowledge.

The average Joe doesn't know which religion is the right one, or the superior one. Bceause the average Joe doesn't have the ability to discern which religion is the right one, or the superior one,

Someone who knows which religion is the right one, or the superior one,
is superior to the average Joe.
I disagree with your premise.

We don't believe and Baha'u'llah doesn't teach that anyone is inherently inferior to anyone else in their ability to recognize God or God's Manifestation, it is only due to external influences and the decisions people make that cause them to be more or less likely to embrace God's Manifestations. There are differences between people in terms of capacities and strengths, but whether that capacity is used to embrace God's Cause, or oppose it, or remain indifferent is not inherent or predestined.
 
Old 08-29-2015, 10:24 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh View Post
According to the Writings, all people have the capacity to recognize the Cause of God when it is revealed in a new Revelation. The Bab, referring to Baha'u'llah, wrote:

"For on that Day whatever cause prompteth the believer to believe in Him, the same will also be available to the unbeliever."
I agree- all people have the capacity. some use this ability, some don't.
 
Old 08-29-2015, 12:09 PM   #74
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Hesrt

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
I agree- all people have the capacity. some use this ability, some don't.
Baha'u'llah says it is not dependent upon human learning
rather, it is solely dependent upon purity of heart
 
Old 08-29-2015, 12:13 PM   #75
Jcc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dale ramsdell View Post
Baha'u'llah says it is not dependent upon human learning
rather, it is solely dependent upon purity of heart
Very true, and all hearts are born pure.
 
Old 08-29-2015, 02:21 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
Then you seem to be operating out of a very different model than is usual for many people.

Could you say in brief 1. what do you think religion is all about, and 2. how come there are different religions in the world?
Religion is about the pursuit of that without which we feel our lives are incomplete eg drugs, money, sex,social status, God. There are different religions because people have different needs or aspirations Sophia
 
Old 08-30-2015, 01:11 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidan View Post
Religion is about the pursuit of that without which we feel our lives are incomplete eg drugs, money, sex,social status, God. There are different religions because people have different needs or aspirations
So you indeed are operating out of a very different model than is usual for many people.

How are the pursuits of drugs, money, sex forms of religion? Do you mean something like this -- The Top 7 Gods Americans Worship - ChurchPlants ?
 
Old 08-30-2015, 01:23 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcc View Post
I disagree with your premise.

We don't believe and Baha'u'llah doesn't teach that anyone is inherently inferior to anyone else in their ability to recognize God or God's Manifestation, it is only due to external influences and the decisions people make that cause them to be more or less likely to embrace God's Manifestations. There are differences between people in terms of capacities and strengths, but whether that capacity is used to embrace God's Cause, or oppose it, or remain indifferent is not inherent or predestined.
I mentioned earlier that I think that in order to accurately assess which religion is the right one, one would need to be omniscient; or alternatively, at least not be subject to greed, anger, and delusion (in the Buddhist sense: enlightened).

But you seem to suggest that neither omniscience, nor being beyond greed, anger, and delusion are necessary in order to recognize which religion is the right one.

Regarding being beyond greed, anger, and delusion: most people are not beyond greed, anger, and delusion. And it seems safe to say that most people are not omniscient.
Yet many of those very people also claim to have figured out which religion is the right one.


Per you, can a person recognize which religion is the right one even though said person is _not_ omniscient, _nor_ beyond greed, anger, and delusion?
 
Old 08-30-2015, 04:25 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
I mentioned earlier that I think that in order to accurately assess which religion is the right one, one would need to be omniscient; or alternatively, at least not be subject to greed, anger, and delusion (in the Buddhist sense: enlightened).

But you seem to suggest that neither omniscience, nor being beyond greed, anger, and delusion are necessary in order to recognize which religion is the right one.

Regarding being beyond greed, anger, and delusion: most people are not beyond greed, anger, and delusion. And it seems safe to say that most people are not omniscient.
Yet many of those very people also claim to have figured out which religion is the right one.


Per you, can a person recognize which religion is the right one even though said person is _not_ omniscient, _nor_ beyond greed, anger, and delusion?
God has given the potential and capacity to find Truth. But human beings must be able to use their potential and capacity. In order to be able to use this ability, they must clean their heart from worldly things, their mind from idle fancies, and their tongues from idle talks, and they must purge their ears from the aquired knowledge. Once they become clean, God enlightens them and guides them to the Right path, the Truth. To me this what Baha'I Scriptures teach.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 08-30-2015 at 04:30 AM.
 
Old 08-30-2015, 05:29 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Anton View Post
Friends, back to the topic! What I’ve noticed is that Russian speaking Baha’is don’t give a damp about persecution of Iranian Baha’is or so it seems. The reason I think so is that publications such as above mentioned receive zero response. Now I start to think that it is also true about English speaking Baha’is. Look, here we jumped into discussion of internet connections instead of talking about ways to support Iranian Baha’is. Again, as I mentioned in the first post, I was not able to find here on forum a thread about campaigns like Paint the Change or Education is not a Crime. It looks like the topic about Iranian Baha’is is far less interesting than that of slow Internet. Well, honestly I’m glad to discover that. I used to think that it was something wrong with Russian speaking Baha’is. Now I see it is more or less a norm. It is human nature I guess.
Anton,

Perhaps you are over generalizing. Russia is a big country with many small Baha'i communities throughout. When I lived in Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk some years ago, I can assure you the community there cared very much about the Iranian friends and deliberated much about it. It true that they may have done little in terms of actions, but it was a small community of modest means, so it would not be fair to judge them this way.

I also disagree with you very much about the Baha'i world doing nothing. If you look at the actions of the world community you will see that there have been persistent and concerted action about it for a long time. You must keep in mind, however, that Baha'is are limited to what they can do. We have no armies, no power other than through peaceful non-political action and deliberation. There is even a special office of the faith at the UN the is fully dedicated to this.

It is easy to look from one's own local and conclude nothing is being done. However, it is ever more useful to find ways to help or take specific actions than to become disheartened that more isn't being done.

Cheers
 
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