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Old 08-01-2014, 03:54 AM   #1
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Unhappy consent for marriage-I can't have it! :(

Hi everyone...
I know you all know about the necessity of parents' consent on marriage and I know the law too and I have read the new UHJ (2010) but I still don't know what should I do in my case. I hope some one can help me.
I live in a VERY religious country. I have recently changed my religion from Islam to Baha'i (about one year ago) and neither my parents' nor any of my relatives know about it; it would be very dangerous if any one outside the circle of my relatives discovers this. then I got familiar with a man, a Baha'i, who was the one who made me interested in this religion one year ago and we want to get marry now. we are living in two separate countries, and he is much older than me.
my mother has already stated that she doesn't agree and she doesnt know that both of us are Baha'i and that I really don't want to marry a non-Baha'i. as for my father...well, he still doesn't know and he discovers it, he would (literally) kill me both for changing my religion and for wanting to marry that man. there is no hope left for me and i am really in a very bad situation. it is soooo difficult that I wish for death everyday. I am so lonely here where I live, with no Baha'is around, and I can't have my parents' consent and I cant imagine marrying some one else (I really can't)... what shall I do now? is parents' disagreement in case of my religion enough reason not to have to have their consent? I am really dying. can you think of any way? please don't tell me that I MUST make them agree, because they won't and they don't care if I love some one or not. they just WON"T.... Help me please....
 
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Old 08-01-2014, 05:31 AM   #2
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Dear and beloved sister

Were it possible to reach out with a ready-made solution, this one would. Your situation is one with many problematic inter-twined issues.

I am certain that you have not just read the Law regarding parental permission, but have examined it from every possible aspect in your search to date for a solution.

This leaves just one avenue that I can see free at this time to pursue, and that is prayer. My personal suggestion would be the Tablet of Ahmad. And, while awaiting an answer to your prayer, to recall at all times as an assurance and a means of facing whatever lies ahead of you, this from the Will and Testament of Baha'u'llah:

Quote:
Although the Realm of Glory hath none of the vanities of the world, yet within the treasury of trust and resignation We have bequeathed to Our heirs an excellent and priceless heritage.
It looks on the surface that you are caught between a rock and a hard place. As intensely difficult as it may appear, as frightfully difficult of achieving it may look now, through heartfelt prayer, through serene trust and resignation to the will of God, you can come through this moment of bleakness to an eventual outcome that you will find to your utmost satisfaction. This I have utter certainty regarding.

I will pray for you, and pray that you may be led by God to a successful solution to your dilemma.

With my heartfelt greetings

Romane.
 
Old 08-01-2014, 07:30 AM   #3
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Dear maryamr

First welcome to the forum.

And secondly I feel I can not give you any better advise than what Romane has already said.

But be assured I will be praying for you.
I assume you are young, when I was young I also remember things were always so very, how can I say, black and white, when refused something I wanted badly it was the end of the world, so to speak.
I understand that you say you love this man dearly and I am sure you do, and if he loves you he would not wish you to place your life in danger.

Yes I feel that patience, prayer and trust in Allah/God is all we can do.
Yes will pray for you dear friend that you may remain strong and patient.

Loving regards
Bill
 
Old 08-01-2014, 10:13 AM   #4
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Where does this man live? Is there any possibility of you going there?
 
Old 08-01-2014, 10:15 AM   #5
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And I believe there's something in the Baha'i Laws about if the parent would be putting the person in danger their right to consent is taken away. But I'm not sure.
 
Old 08-01-2014, 03:57 PM   #6
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Dear Maryamr,

I agree with EternalStudent, in that my first feeling was that it is best to escape your country if possible.

It sounds very dangerous for you, and I think your safety is of first importance.

I think there is no need to tell your parents of your wish at this stage, if it means placing your life in jeopardy.

I don't have the knowledge about who could help you, -but can any other baha'is in your country, or indeed the man you know and love help you in this regard?
Or does the United Nations have an office there?? Are they independent?
Maybe your friend can advise you on the safest passage of how to leave your country if possible.


I am sorry for my ignorance regarding this.
Once you are in a place of safety, you could then consult with a Baha'i Assembly, local or National about the question of consent.

If consent is withheld on account of bias because of religion, I agree - I think the need for parental consent is likely then waived.
However you may possibly still need to ask them.. But that's for another time. Think of getting to a safe place /country first.
 
Old 08-01-2014, 08:48 PM   #7
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What Maryamr is actually facing

My dear friends

Everyone may be absolutely certain that Maryamr has fully researched the issue before coming to this forum. She will already know that some of the answers given above are not correct, or may not be a long-term solution.T o help all understand fullt the severe dilemma that Maryamr finds herself in, have compiled a few relevant quotes. These are all found in Lights of Guidance.

First, the reason for the consent of all living parents:

Quote:
Bahá'u'lláh has clearly stated the consent of all living parents is required for a Bahá'í marriage. This applies whether the parents are Bahá'ís or non-Bahá'ís divorced for years or not. This great law He has laid down to strengthen the social fabric, to knit closer the ties of the home, to place a certain gratitude and respect in the hearts of children for those who have given them life and sent their souls out on the eternal journey toward their Creator. We Bahá'ís must realize that in present-day society the exact opposite process is taking place: young people care less and less for their parents' wishes, divorce is considered a natural right, and obtained on the flimsiest and most unwarrantable and shabby pretexts. People separated from each other, especially if one of them has had full custody of the children are only too willing to belittle the importance to the Bahá'í laws and teachings, combat these corrosive forces which are so rapidly destroying home life and the beauty of family relationships, and tearing down the moral structure of society.
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States and Canada, October 25, 1947)
The rules regarding not needing consent of parents is very straightforward. There is other material in other letters regarding some of the exceptional cases that might be covered by exemptipon number 5 below. Anyhow, the rules are as follows:

Quote:
Circumstances Under Which Parental Consent for Bahá'í Marriage Not Required

"In reply to your letter about the problem of... who is unable to locate the natural father of her fiance we are glad to offer you the following guidance:

"The only circumstances under which parental consent for Bahá'í marriage is not required are the following:

1. If the parent is dead.

2. If the parent has absented himself to the degree that he can be adjudged legally dead.

3. If the parent is certified insane and therefore legally incompetent to give consent

4. If the parent is a Covenant-breaker.

5. It is possible under Bahá'í Law, in certain very rare cases, to recognize that a state of disownment exists. All such cases should be referred to the Universal House of Justice.

"The problem therefore is reduced to the simple question of whether your National Assembly accepts that Miss...'s father-in-law elect cannot be traced and therefore may, to your satisfaction, be presumed to be legally dead. You should of course ascertain that Miss ... has made every effort possible to trace her fiance's father.
(Letter from the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Alaska, May 30, 1971)
Consent must be freely given (bolding my own):

Quote:
"In the Bahá'í Faith it is the right of each individual to choose without duress his future partner in marriage and the freedom of the parents in exercising their right to give or refuse consent is unconditional. While it is desirable to have a signed consent from each parent it is not a requirement under Bahá'í Law. The responsible Spiritual Assembly must satisfy itself that consent is freely given but it should not insist upon a signed document. Reliable evidence of oral consents is quite sufficient; some parents freely give their consents orally while refusing to write their consents.
(From letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Guyana, April, 11, 1978)
Leaving her country of residence may solve the issue of the threat of death. That is all, unless she satisfies under item 5. That Maryamr would need to follow up herself.

This also needs to be considered:

Quote:
"...the Bahá'í law requiring consent of parents to marriage. All too often nowadays such consent is withheld by non-Bahá'í parents for reasons of bigotry or racial prejudice; yet we have seen again and again the profound effect on those very parents of the firmness of the children in the Bahá'í law, to the extent that not only is the consent ultimately given in many cases, but the character of the parents can be affected and their relationship with their child greatly strengthened.

"Thus, by upholding Bahá'í law in the face of all difficulties we not only strengthen our own characters but influence those around us.
(From letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer; copies to all National Spiritual Assemblies, February 6, 1973: Messages from the Universal House of Justice, 1968-1973, pp. 106-107)
And this - I have bolded the relevant bit:

Quote:
Regarding your question of applying the sanction of suspension of voting rights to people who marry without the consent of parents, this should be done from now on. The law of the Aqdas is explicit and not open to any ambiguity at all. As long as the parents are alive, the consent must be obtained; it is not conditioned on their relationship to their children. If the whereabouts of the parents is not known legally, in other words, if they are legally dead, then it is not necessary for the children to obtain their consent, obviously. It is not a question of a legal thing-if the parents are alive, they must be asked.
(From letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada, June 26, 1956: Bahá'í News, No. 335, January 1959. p. 2)
And, again, bolding and underlining my own:

Quote:
Basically, Bahá'í Law pertaining to marriage requires that the parties intending to marry must obtain consent of all living natural parents. Further, the responsibility of the parents in giving their consent is unrestricted and unconditioned, but in discharging this duty they are responsible for their decision to God. Should the parents in their letter of consent, as you indicated, not name a specific future spouse, the House of Justice states that it could be accepted and it would be permissible to perform a Bahá'í marriage ceremony on the basis of such a letter.
(From letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, October 9, 1975)
Hope this helps in understanding just what it is that Maryamr is facing. Not only is she in a tight spot in gaining consent, but her very life becomes in danger should her faith in Baha'u'llah become known generally, or even specifically - and this may or may not change should she move countries.

With warmest greetings

Romane.

Last edited by Romane; 08-01-2014 at 08:52 PM.
 
Old 08-01-2014, 10:16 PM   #8
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I would think (from what I understand of the Baha'i Writings) that this goes beyond mere family disunity and goes into threats of harm, where disunity in the family will obviously happen anyway, either from distress at her hiding her faith or from the father literally trying to murder her if he finds out. Clearly the parents seem not at all interested in building a happy family. That could fall under (again from what I understand) the incredibly abusive parent exception. If I were her I would flee to the nearest country where being a Baha'i is not punishable by death and ask the LSA what to do. (If I'm completely off base, then by all means correct me.)
 
Old 08-01-2014, 10:31 PM   #9
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Thanks Romane, and everyone.

Maryamr referred to the letter issued by the Universal House of Justice, 19th January, 2010, which clarifies some situations where a child may seek to be free of the requirement to obtain parental consent for marriage.

I have seen some of it posted on this forum before, but will post again, as I think it adds additional helpful clarifications for those in such a situation, to what we have in Lights of Guidance. Having been issued in 2010, it is more recent too.

I'll highlight one paragraph below as I feel it just might be applicable:


'Finally, the right of the parent to consent can be forfeited if he or she seeks to use the requirement for consent in a manner which subverts the spirit and intent of the law or obstructs an individual’s right as a believer in Baha’u’llah to marry in accordance with the provisions of Baha’i law. For example, ‘Abdu’l-Baha states, “As for the question regarding marriage under the Law of God: first thou must choose one who is pleasing to thee, and then the matter is subject to the consent of father and mother.” Yet, in some instances, a parent has refused consent in order to deprive the child of the right to choose and to force the child to marry someone of the parent’s choosing. In other instances, a parent has denied consent in order to try to prevent the child from marrying anyone.'


And this paragraph excerpted from the letter from the NSA of the United States:

'The House of Justice goes on to explain that when cases arise involving any of the circumstances discussed above, the Local Spiritual Assembly should ascertain all relevant facts and refer the matter for consideration by the National Assembly. Care should be exercised not to unduly invalidate the rights of the parents; yet, while children have the obligation to abide by the Baha’i marriage law, they also have the right to be protected from the excesses imposed by parents that violate the spirit and intent of that law. In addition, the National Assembly is advised that it need no longer refer such cases to the Universal House of Justice, unless particular situations arise for which no clear solution is apparent.'

I didn't prefer to cut and paste so much but the original letter was quite long. Here is the link to the letter from the NSA of the US, which contained some of the letter from the House of Justice, in case no-one here has read it..

The marriage law and parental consent, 2010 « Sen McGlinn's blog

Last edited by Rani; 08-01-2014 at 10:53 PM.
 
Old 08-01-2014, 10:58 PM   #10
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[QUOTE=Romane;56647]My dear friends

Everyone may be absolutely certain that Maryamr has fully researched the issue before coming to this forum. She will already know that some of the answers given above are not correct, or may not be a long-term solution...

Dear Romane,
thanks a lot for your kind replies and for your help. yes. you are right; I have considered ALL aspects before coming here and talking about my problem. you are right and although escaping the house and country keeps me safe and keeps dangers far from me, BUT my parents will get really sad, I even fear that they may die of sorrow. so I think sometimes (although it is REALLY difficult) I have to sacrifice some of my personal desires in order to keep others safe and sound. I can forget about my parents and easily go to where I like to but what will happen next?
I can leave my country (where there is NO right for people to change their religion once they are Muslims) and in fact the punishment for changing ones religion from Islam to any other religion SPECIALLY BF, is DEATH. well, maybe my parents won't kill me because of this (and they won't) but until the end of my life they would laugh at me, and they will never accept any of the things I tell them. anyway, being laughed at, and scorned is what I don't really care. the only help I have in this situation is God who is the Most Merciful, the most Powerful (and of course you my dear friends who are helping me and listening to me here)
thank you alllllll, for your helps. I am lucky that I can at least talk to someone because here, in my country Baha'i Faith is forbidden, Baha'is are deprived of all basic necessities of life, and we don't have any spiritual assembly (the members of the assembly has been recently put into prison and I hope they are still alive!). that is very dire situation but can I do anything?...I guess I should just ask God for help. the man I love can come here and take me with himself but I dont want to put his life in danger. I don't want him to come here as long as it is this dangerous.... pray for me dear friends. I love you all.
 
Old 08-01-2014, 11:17 PM   #11
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thank you Romane, Blinkeybill, Eternalstudent, Rani and smiling skeptic

I am happy that in this world, full of difficulties, people still care for one another. and I am very happy that I can talk here because where I live, in my country, I can't reveal my religion. I sometimes have to lie for the fear of my life. when I see Baha'is living somewhere else and freely talking about their ideas and their religion, I feel really sorrowful because I can't do such things but then again, I know, in all situations God won't forget us. maybe that is my TEST once I have changed my religion. maybe I should be tested about how serious I am in my decision (and I am really serious, I can give my life for it).

Dear Rani I I know you have talked about escaping my country in order for my safety. I have the courage to do this and I also have the chance. the man I love has asked me to come here and take me with himself but can I put anyone's life in danger for my own sake? can I let my parents die of sorrow in order for my self to be safe and to reach my desires? If I say I believe in the power of God and in His Merci and if I say i love Baha'ullah and my religion, then how can I do this? how can I be that cruel to mt family (although they hurt my emotions and although they are too frightened to give their consent).... this is a tough situation, extremely difficult where I have no one around and where I have lost all my friends except one. where my once friends, now laugh at me because of my madness in loving a FOREIGNER WHO IS MUCH OLDER THAN ME these are all my difficulties in life.
Maybe I should wait for a miracle to get free and I continue praying. no one but God can help me. yet IF I know my problem of not being able to have my parents' consent can be solved using one of the mentioned parts in that letter from UHJ I would reallly be glad. I just don't want to break the rules I don't want to sacrifice my love for God and my life in the world hereafter for anything. I can't live without the man I love but maybe God has still miracles to perform....
Pray for me dear friends...
(P.S I had answered all your kind replies yesterday but because I am a new comer here, I didnt know that I should use the "quote" option to answer you. so none of my replies has been published here. thank you all my friends, again and again)

Last edited by maryamr; 08-01-2014 at 11:21 PM.
 
Old 08-02-2014, 12:00 AM   #12
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Dear Maryam, may I ask your age and the age of your lover?
 
Old 08-02-2014, 01:47 AM   #13
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Entrust yourself to the Blessed Beauty. He knows your needs.
 
Old 08-02-2014, 02:17 AM   #14
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Maryamr, sister and friend

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
....

thanks a lot for your kind replies and for your help. yes. you are right; I have considered ALL aspects before ....
Your few words spoke from the spirit. My eyes read, my heart beat with joy, and my spirit exulted to its Lord that here is a true servant to the Blessed Beauty. Immediately to my mind there came these words from Baha'u'llah:

Quote:
The fruits of the tree of existence are trustworthiness, loyalty,truthfulness and purity. After the recognition of the oneness of the Lord, exalted be He, the most important of all duties is to have due regard for the rights of one's parents. This matter hath been mentioned in all the Books of God.
(Bahá'u'lláh: Family Life, a compilation of the Universal House of Justice)

Beware lest ye commit that which would sadden the hearts of your fathers and mothers. Follow ye the path of Truth which indeed is a straight path. Should anyone give you a choice between the opportunity to render a service to Me and a service to them, choose ye to serve them, and let such service be a path leading you to Me. This is My exhortation and command unto thee. Observe therefore that which thy Lord, the Mighty, the Gracious, hath prescribed unto thee.
(Bahá'u'lláh: Family Life, a compilation of the Universal House of Justice)
Through the pain of your suffering, my certainty is that much good will come from your love for your parents, through your abiding love for Baha'u'llah.

You may in other posts come to realise that I have, so to speak, a bee in my bonnet. buzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzz This Faith is a practical Faith. If you are unable to teach directly, then by your deeds, by your attitudes, by the love you bear for God, by your kind words, you teach indirectly. If others fail to listen to the example of our Exemplar, 'Abdu'l-Baha, then you must, in your own way, become an example which others may wish to emulate. It does not need to be anything big - we none of us are 'Abdu'l-Baha, much as we strive to be like Him - but even the very little things, the tiny things, have a greater effect and influence than we can know, and they are noticed, when done for the Cause of God. And (Romane grinning broadly), all by being yourself. No fancy airs or high-faluting ways in this house.

By the sacrifice you make now, the Cause of God is strengthened around the world. And one day, that Light will penetrate within your own place of existence and rule the hearts. While in your personal predicament, indeed, God is the prayer-hearing and prayer-answering God.

There is a very short Prayer, details and stories of which are again circulating through the emails I receive daily. I would like to share it with you. Take a moment when in privacy to repeat it over and over and over and over again and again. If any wish, I can share the contents of this longish (longer than the last time it made the rounds) email via a thread, this one or another. I am willing to bet that it sounds better spoken/chanted in your native tongue than in the English tongue The prayer is simply:

"Ya Allah El-Mustagath"

There is a long story behind this prayer, and the capacity it holds.

With my warmest greetings

Romane

Last edited by Romane; 08-02-2014 at 02:20 AM.
 
Old 08-02-2014, 02:26 AM   #15
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Good morning friend Rani

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani View Post
....

Maryamr referred to the letter issued by the Universal House of Justice, 19th January, 2010, which clarifies some situations where a child may seek to be free of the requirement to obtain parental consent for marriage.
....
This does clarify some of the aspects that would be covered by item 5 in the reasons regarding not needing parental consent. My thanks for posting it - do not remember this letter, but then, there is a lot I do not remember

With my warmest greetings

Romane
 
Old 08-02-2014, 03:15 AM   #16
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Dear Maryam, may I ask your age and the age of your lover?[/QUOTE]

Dear Aidan I am 27 but I would be glad not to reveal the age of the man I love. but is this REALLY important? yes, my parents and the society would say so. but once I KNOW we won't have problems considering the matter of age, then I no more care about it. I don't also care about appearance, nationality, wealth and etc...
 
Old 08-02-2014, 03:17 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarastro View Post
Entrust yourself to the Blessed Beauty. He knows your needs.
thank you Sarastro. yes, that is the only thing I can do at the moment (and also the most trusted way)
 
Old 08-02-2014, 03:21 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romane View Post
Maryamr, sister and friend
Your few words spoke from the spirit. My eyes read, my heart beat with joy,...
Dear Romane, thanks a lot again and thank you for that beautiful short prayer; I had not heard about that, the one I always use is "Allaho Abha" but I am really glad to know this new one as well...

my hope and wish is for my situation not to get that difficult so as to make me sacrifice my love. this would be DEATH to me and the end of my life. I still pray and pray and pray. God is the most Merciful, the Most Exhaled
 
Old 08-02-2014, 08:12 AM   #19
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You, your family, and the man you love will all be in my prayers.
 
Old 08-02-2014, 08:55 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalStudent9 View Post
You, your family, and the man you love will all be in my prayers.
thank you dear friend, that is what I absolutely need...thank you again.
 
Old 08-02-2014, 09:09 AM   #21
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Dear maryamr

I also will pray for your continued strength and patience.
You have shown great spiritual maturity, May God assist you always.

Loving regards
Bill
Chile
 
Old 08-02-2014, 09:34 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Dear maryamr

I also will pray for your continued strength and patience.
You have shown great spiritual maturity, May God assist you always.

Loving regards
Bill
Chile
thank you my dear friend for your encouraging, hope giving words.
 
Old 08-03-2014, 01:00 AM   #23
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Dear spiritual friend, Maryamr

Thought threse may be of use, not only for yourself, but for anyone else who may have an interest..

Allah'u'Abha : a greeting meaning "God the All-Glorious"

Yá Bahá’u’l-Abhá : an invocation to Baha'u'llah meaning "O Thou the Glory of Glories!"

Ya Aliyyu'l-'Ala : meaning "O Thou the Exalted of the Most Exalted!" is an invocation addressed to the Báb.

Ya Rabbiya'l-Abha : an invocation meaning "O Thou my Lord, the Most Glorious"

There is a largish collection of Baha'i Prayers in many languages at the website Bahá’í Prayers (Baha'i Prayers in many languages). I notice that both Arabic and Persian (Farsi) are included. Both of these have links to chanted versions, which am certain many, regardless their own tongue, will enjoy.

Just a couple of related quotes which may help regarding the above greetings and invocations:

Quote:
Shoghi Effendi has also written this brief yet moving portrayal of the martyrdom of Aqa Najaf-'Ali:

"Among the sufferers may be singled out the intrepid Najaf-Aliy-i-Zanjani, a survivor of the struggle of Zanjan, and immortalized in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, who, bequeathing the gold in his possession to his executioner, was heard to shout aloud 'Ya Rabbiya'l-Abha'[1] before he was beheaded."
[1 Literally 'O Thou my Lord, the Most Glorious', an invocation. (A.T.)]
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 2, p. 223)
Quote:
Advance always in the Kingdom of Bahá'u'lláh; occupy thy heart always by the mentioning of Bahá'u'lláh; take heed that only in your eyes is Bahá'u'lláh, in your heart is Bahá'u'lláh -- in your inmost heart is Bahá'u'lláh! If you fall into trouble, say, "Ya Baha ul Abha!" If any one oppose you, say, "Ya Baha ul Abha!" Even while at your work, mention "Ya Baha ul Abha!" Thou wilt be blamed for My sake; people will attribute to thee infidelity for My sake; thou wilt bear trouble for My sake. Be encouraged, and do not fear. It happened like this also in the time of Jesus Christ.
('Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 502)
Quote:
The battle cry animating its heroes and heroines is the cry of Ya Baha'u'l-Abha, Ya 'Aliyyu'l-A'la
(Ministry of the Custodians, p. 91)
Quote:
Ya Baha'u'l-Abha -- This is an invocation. It means "O Glory of the All-Glorious." In this connection we recall the soul stirring message of the Guardian in 1953 to the Intercontinental Conferences where he refers to "Ya Baha'u'l-Abha" and "Ya 'Aliyyu'l-'Ala" as the "battle cry" of the pioneers and teachers in the many fields of this world-embracing spiritual Crusade. The first, as already stated, means "O Glory of the All Glorious", while the second means "O Exalted of the Most Exalted One." (The Bab) There is nothing in the Writings which says we have to repeat such an invocation a specific number of times each day. However, what a thrill it would be for us in times of dire need, to seek God's guidance, His support and strength, by addressing Bahá'u'lláh and the Báb directly with these beautiful invocations!
(Abu'l-Qasim Faizi, An Explanation of the Greatest Name, p. 13)
With my warmest greetings

Romane
 
Old 08-03-2014, 07:49 AM   #24
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thank you my dear friend for your encouraging, hope giving words.
Dear friend I will tell you a little secret, I also brought the Word of God to my beloved wife, and her mother hated me with a vengeance from that day, she of course would never give us permission to marry. At that time I had no plans for marriage but later this sweet lady changed my mind (I being old and disabled felt it unjust for a woman to marry me), but of course how were we to win the heart of my wife's mother, But then the poor lady died, and we were free to marry.
We have been married over three years now, and are in heaven on earth, we are so happy together, with so much love.

So patience and trust in God, I love that you love and respect your dear parents.

Loving regards and prayers dear sister.
Bill
 
Old 08-03-2014, 07:57 AM   #25
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Dear spiritual friend, Maryamr

Thought threse may be of use, not only for yourself, but for anyone else who may have an interest...
Romane
Dear Romane,
your kind words are REALLY helpful to me. how beautiful are these words. I would use them from now on specially "Ya Baha'ulabha"; such lovely words really...
thank you also for mentioning that website of prayers in many languages.yes I am familiar with that and I have read almost all of its prayers; also the Baha'i library which I always use because here in my country I have no access to paper books and I can just use e-books. it may be funny but one of my wishes is that someday I can have a paper book of prayers with no fear, no blame...
and this is interesting to me that in times of troubles we can call for Baha'ullah. it shows How dear how elevated his status has been in front of God. I am so happy and I feel blessed to be one of his followers.
 
Old 08-03-2014, 08:07 AM   #26
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Dear friend I will tell you a little secret, I also brought the Word of God to my beloved wife, and her mother hated me with a vengeance from that day...
Bill
OH,dear Bill, your story really brought tears to my eyes, so touching, so touching as though I am reading my own life story. so you have felt the pain I feel now (more or less). thanks a million for sharing your secret with me, thanks a million. you said: "I being old and disabled felt it unjust for a woman to marry me" I am sure that even if you have been old (and I dont think you were THAT old) you have not been disabled BUT this is exactly the same with my beloved and I. he is not disabled, he is the happiest and healthiest man, but he is MUCH older than me, MUCH older that in today's world it would seem funny. but I love him and I cant change my mind and I don't think I would WASTE my young days, no way. I would feel in heaven once I am with him and when I think how many things we can do together to help the cause of our religion, how many good things we can do to make people know more about Baha'i faith, I am thrilled with joy. in my decision, physical matters play a VERY minor role, we hope to be more powerful in our believes once we are together and how sad if we can't...I think then I won't be able to live anymore cuz then I have to marry a Muslim, having a routine life as others and ... that is death. every night I pray that if it is not destined for us to marry, I die sooner so that in the other world we can be together. what a sad life....
OH thanks a Million again dear friend, your story is JUST like mine...thanks for telling me, thanks. I wish for an opening, a miracle. and I wish you and your lovely wife would dwell in love and peace for ever ...
 
Old 08-03-2014, 08:18 AM   #27
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OH,dear Bill, your story really brought tears to my eyes, so touching, so touching as though I am reading my own life story. so you have felt the pain I feel now (more or less). thanks a million for sharing your secret with me, thanks a million. you said: "I being old and disabled felt it unjust for a woman to marry me" I am sure that even if you have been old (and I dont think you were THAT old) you have not been disabled BUT this is exactly the same with my beloved and I. he is not disabled, he is the happiest and healthiest man, but he is MUCH older than me, MUCH older that in today's world it would seem funny. but I love him and I cant change my mind and I don't think I would WASTE my young days, no way. I would feel in heaven once I am with him and when I think how many things we can do together to help the cause of our religion, how many good things we can do to make people know more about Baha'i faith, I am thrilled with joy. in my decision, physical matters play a VERY minor role, we hope to be more powerful in our believes once we are together and how sad if we can't...I think then I won't be able to live anymore cuz then I have to marry a Muslim, having a routine life as others and ... that is death. every night I pray that if it is not destined for us to marry, I die sooner so that in the other world we can be together. what a sad life....
OH thanks a Million again dear friend, your story is JUST like mine...thanks for telling me, thanks. I wish for an opening, a miracle. and I wish you and your lovely wife would dwell in love and peace for ever ...
Thank you for your kind words dear friend, but please know this that if it had been impossible to marry, we would have stayed close friends, and continued to serve the faith in what ever capacity we could. And yes I feel your sorrow.
Please do not have thoughts of death, as if death comes to you it must be as God wills not what you would want.

God assists the honest in heart, and the heart is His throne, if it is always kept for Him and He never finds a stranger there, His Grace and love will always be yours. Keep strong dear sister, keep loving your parents, and God will in some way resolve your dilemma.

Many loving regards to you
Bill
 
Old 08-03-2014, 08:27 AM   #28
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Thank you for your kind words dear friend, but please know this that if it had been impossible to marry, we would have stayed close friends, and continued to serve the faith in what ever capacity we could. And yes I feel your sorrow.
Please do not have thoughts of death, as if death comes to you it must be as God wills not what you would want.

God assists the honest in heart, and the heart is His throne, if it is always kept for Him and He never finds a stranger there, His Grace and love will always be yours. Keep strong dear sister, keep loving your parents, and God will in some way resolve your dilemma.

Many loving regards to you
Bill
yes, you would have stayed friends but in my country, where I live it is not possible. if I can't marry him I HAVE TO marry another one, a MUSLIM and you can of course understand that now that I am a BAHa'i I like to marry a Baha'i as well...
but thanks again for the hope and courage you gave me. I try not to think of any bad thing (like death) because Yes it is God's gift and He should decide upon it. thank you my dear friend...
 
Old 08-03-2014, 08:39 AM   #29
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yes, you would have stayed friends but in my country, where I live it is not possible. if I can't marry him I HAVE TO marry another one, a MUSLIM and you can of course understand that now that I am a BAHa'i I like to marry a Baha'i as well...
but thanks again for the hope and courage you gave me. I try not to think of any bad thing (like death) because Yes it is God's gift and He should decide upon it. thank you my dear friend...
Beloved sister yes I understand.

Loving regards always
 
Old 08-03-2014, 03:36 PM   #30
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Good morning dear sister, Maryamr

One day I would like to tell you a little my story, not as a means of saying yours is or will be the same, but as an encouragement in your own pursuit of the conditions to marry the one that you love. Our earthly circumstances differ, but love does not differ from one time to the next, from one place to the next. But for now, my heart prompts me to write these few words.

I pray always that your own heart's desire may become fulfilled, for to know of your joy will bring me joy in return. But all in the Hands and the Will of God.

Know that age should be no barrier to love, for age is merely because of a blob of dirt and water spinning around a great shining ball of fire. In the Abha Kingdom, there is no age as we know it. Know also that should God's Will choose for you a path different from that expected or desired today, that He will at the same time bring you a joy and peace that perhaps today you have not grown into. The future, as well as being a surprise, is also full of surprises.

A quote from The Prophet, by Khalil Gibran:

Quote:
And he raised his head and looked upon the people, and there fell a stillness upon them. And with a great voice he said:

When love beckons to you, follow him,
Though his way are hard and steep.
And when his wings enfold you yield to him,
Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.
And when he speaks to you believe in him,
Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden.
For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning.
Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun,
So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth.
Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.
He threshes you to make you naked.
He sifts you to free you from your husks.
He grinds you to whiteness.
He kneads you till you are pliant;
And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast.

All these shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart.

But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,
Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing floor,
Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.

Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.
Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;
For love is sufficient unto love.

When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, "I am in the heart of God."
And think not you can direct the course of love, for love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.

Love has no other desire but to fulfil itself.
But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:
To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.
To know the pain of too much tenderness.
To be wounded by your own understanding of love;
And to bleed willingly and joyfully.
To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving;
To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstacy;
To return home at eventide with gratitude;
And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips.
With my warmest greeting

Romane
 
Old 08-03-2014, 10:33 PM   #31
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Oh sweet heart. You've let your heart cloud your mind. It may be you wish to marry this man because you want to escape. It may not necessarily be that you're in love. When I was young, I fell in love with a guy that wasn't very good to me and nothing could convince me otherwise. It took some very hard lessons to learn from that. Too many very dysfunctional co-dependent relationships that weren't good for me.

I suggest trying to do a Study Abroad program to get out of the country. Maybe that's what you need is to get away. You might could get your parents to consent to that. If you manage to find one where this man is, I suggest you take your time getting to know him. You are young and you have many years in front of you to find love. But remember to identify love from lust. Never marry out of lust and be honest with yourself about what you are really feeling. Don't feel you need to be in a hurry to find love. It is never necessary. You must fulfill yourself before you can fulfill anyone else. If you don't, you will dearly regret it later on. Trust me on that one.
 
Old 08-03-2014, 10:51 PM   #32
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Oh sweet heart. You've let your heart cloud your mind. It may be you wish to marry this man because you want to escape..
Dear friend, thank you for reading my present problem and trying to treat it logically. but dear friend, my love for that man, is not for escaping my country, not even a bit. I can even live with him, right where i am now. I don't care where I am going to live, cuz it is not the "geographical place" which makes us feel lucky, but I am happy and lucky wherever I can live with my beloved even if that is in the heart of a desert or a faraway village with no facilities; I am even happy to live with him in a country worse than the one I am already living in. I have considered and analyzed my feelings for many months there is not the smallest desire to "escape". I had experiences of being in love but none has ever been like this. so it reminds me of a line of a poem by Rumi:
I am shamed to call this love human/yet afraid of God to call it divine

thank you again for taking your time and reading what I have written. may the power and Merci of God be always with you.
 
Old 08-03-2014, 10:56 PM   #33
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Good morning dear sister, Maryamr

One day I would like to tell you a little my story, not as a means of saying yours is or will be the same, but as an encouragement in your own pursuit ...
Oh dear Romane, my dear friend, your kind words made my day. I feel lucky and happy to be able to read your wise, lovely and beautiful words at the begining of my dey and how beautiful you have said "Know that age should be no barrier to love, for age is merely because of a blob of dirt and water spinning around a great shining ball of fire. In the Abha Kingdom, there is no age as we know it."
I am really thankful to God because of knowing this forum and getting to know a dear sister like you. thanks a million (and I would love to know your story)
 
Old 08-04-2014, 01:18 AM   #34
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Sister and friend, Maryamr

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
...I am happy and lucky wherever I can live with my beloved even if that is in the heart of a desert or a faraway village with no facilities; I am even happy to live with him in a country worse than the one I am already living in. ...
I will say to you - be very careful what you wish for (Romane laughing). When I was first married, my wife (yes, I am male, but am often mistaken for female in non face-to-face or voice-to-voice communication. More further down) said to me that she would live anywhere with me, even in a shed That was back in very early 1981 (Gregorian)

In 2010 we had the year from absolute hell, and needing a change of environment, ended up purchasing a couple of acres (about 8,000 square metres) in the country. Guess what !! We spent about 14 months living in a shed (hehehehehe), first while travelling back and forth between our old home and new, but then full-time while our house here was being built. We were happy then, and are happy still in our new home.

As for mistaking my gender - please feel no need for apology or in any way feeling bad - one or both of those is the usual reaction. You have not offended me, but rather recognised, because they are in you, qualities and attributes. It is our qualities and attributes which are important, to ourself, to our families, to our friends and to everyone else we meet. We are all, each of us, mirrors to each other.

Gender is in this world only - the world of the spirit has no gender, and our conversation is in that world, no matter that we still need words to communicate in this one, to discuss circumstances in this world.

With my warmest greetings

Romane
 
Old 08-04-2014, 01:23 AM   #35
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Dear friend who seeks her hearts desire

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
... (and I would love to know your story)
There are similarities, but also differences. I know and understand how you feel for a man who is older than you in earth years. This place I have entered, and once entered, never left.

First, I will say that there is a difference between falling in love, and loving. If one falls into something, then one can fall or climb out again. While if one loves, then love does not end, for love is love without ending. This should help you understand certain things which had been puzzling you. And with increased understanding comes increased compassion, and with increased compassion one gives of their love, unendingly.

A woman very much older than me. I was in my late teens, she was ... This places us in the very late 1960's. We became lovers also, as well as loving each other.

After writing these words above, I stopped in memory for a while. Thank you for your patience, and for waiting for me to return from my reverie.

She was also my first teacher in the path of mysticism. Through her I met others, and between them they all contributed, in their own fields, to my education. Some were Magicians, some Cabalists, some Wicca, some Warlocks, some simple Mystics. She also introduced me to her circle of friends. We were accepted together by all when we were together. And yet, such was our love that it held when my youthful feet took me away for periods of time.

Had we chosen to get married, her parents and mine would have happily approved. Her parents were wonderful people and gladly accepted me, and my own parents accepted her joyfully. But there was a problem - she was already married, albeit separated. She and her husband were still friendly, so I got to meet him, and we became good friends also.

Then circumstances arose which drew us physically apart. It was a choice neither of us wanted, and there was quite an amount of sorrow shared. But, our love never died, never faded.

Still to this day, our love lives, for love itself does not end. I think that she has since passed to the Abha Kingdom, for there are times when I feel her breath on my cheek, and her hand gently on my shoulder, while her face springs unbidden to sight and mind.

HOW sweet her name
Rings in my ears,
Sweet bells put to shame
By that melody so clear
In the air
In my ear
Rings that sound, O so clear
Yet again.

In looking at my life from that time to this, I can see clearly the hand of God directing matters. In the separating of my first true love in this material world. In meeting my now-wife only a few short years later. And in many other events and happenings.

I will leave you with one of my favourite quotes. You will see it scattered here and there in various posts, but given again for your own comfort during this difficult moment in your own life. It is the first sentence of the Kitab-i-Ahd:

Quote:
ALTHOUGH the Realm of Glory hath none of the vanities of the world, yet within the treasury of trust and resignation We have bequeathed to Our heirs an excellent and priceless heritage.
With warmest of greetings

Romane
 
Old 08-04-2014, 01:50 AM   #36
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Dear friend who seeks her hearts desire...
thank you dear Brother (I shall call you from now on a brother! ) for your wise advice "be very careful with what you wish for" when I said I can even live in a desert or a far away village with the man I love I mostly meant that materials are not SO important to me (to some very little extent they are). but when people know which country I am living in, and then they know which country my beloved is living in, they usually think that in the background of my mind there is the need and wish to live in a more comfortable place, in a modern society while it has not been so with me. but I take your advice

your story was so touching and so beautiful that it made me cry (these months I guess I cry too often and too easily!). such a loving woman she should have been and I am happy that you have found another lovely person. thank you for sharing that with me and that beautiful poem, all the beautiful images in your story...I wish for you and your wife eternal bless and happiness...
 
Old 10-08-2014, 04:45 AM   #37
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Dear maryamr,
Thank you so much for sharing this. This is the real thing - the kind of experiences we have to deal with, striving to do "the right thing", so lost among the different options available. I definitely feel that I shouldn't offer any kind of advice, because there are no "quick fixes" here. The only thing I can say is that you seem to be someone who doesn't just follow the paths laid out by others. Instead, you have the courage to listen to your own heart. It makes you grow as a person, it helps you come closer to your true self. But it doesn't make life any easier.

Best,

gnat
 
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