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Old 08-29-2014, 03:18 PM   #1
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Federal judge strikes down restrictive abortion law

A Federal judge in Austin has said that a ruling which forces abortion clinics to have the same building standards as hospitals is unfair as it restricts a woman's right to an abortion
 
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Old 08-29-2014, 03:55 PM   #2
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A Federal judge in Austin has said that a ruling which forces abortion clinics to have the same building standards as hospitals is unfair as it restricts a woman's right to an abortion
Can you link to where you found this please?
 
Old 08-29-2014, 03:58 PM   #3
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Sorry skep, am not very IT. It was in Huff Post UK
 
Old 08-29-2014, 04:30 PM   #4
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Sorry skep, am not very IT. It was in Huff Post UK
This may not be the article but it is related:

Federal Judge Halts Key Part Of Texas Abortion Law
 
Old 08-29-2014, 07:41 PM   #5
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This may not be the article but it is related:

Federal Judge Halts Key Part Of Texas Abortion Law
That's the same story,yes. Sad on numerous levels
 
Old 08-29-2014, 07:57 PM   #6
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That's the same story,yes. Sad on numerous levels
What's so sad about it, exactly? What's your opinion on the ruling itself?
 
Old 08-29-2014, 07:58 PM   #7
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Sorry, I am not sure what the underlying point of this thread is. I am very sleep deprived so forgive me for my slow thinking! Are you suggesting you all agree or disagree with making abortion more easily accessible to women?
 
Old 08-29-2014, 08:02 PM   #8
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Sorry, I am not sure what the underlying point of this thread is. I am very sleep deprived so forgive me for my slow thinking! Are you suggesting you all agree or disagree with making abortion more easily accessible to women?
Count me in the confused club, Grace.
 
Old 08-29-2014, 08:03 PM   #9
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I think it a terrible tragedy that the voiceless unborn are deprived of life even before taking their first breath and that so many women are under the impression that it's the best course of action for them
 
Old 08-29-2014, 08:13 PM   #10
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I think it a terrible tragedy that the voiceless unborn are deprived of life even before taking their first breath and that so many women are under the impression that it's the best course of action for them
1.) Science has not established when life begins.

2.) From a legal and moral standpoint, the Roe v. Wade standards (which have been tweaked since then)- meaning that early on in pregnancy the woman has more control, later on the state has more control- are the best framework.

3.) Women have multiple, legitimate reasons for having abortions, which are no one's business but their own. To ban abortion or unreasonably restrict it would be to regress the progress of women's rights.
 
Old 08-29-2014, 08:19 PM   #11
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Thank you Skeptic, that was a much kinder and more well worded answer than what I may have given. I am too passionate to engage in the discussion calmly.
 
Old 08-29-2014, 08:19 PM   #12
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1.) Science has not established when life begins.

2.) From a legal and moral standpoint, the Roe v. Wade standards (which have been tweaked since then)- meaning that early on in pregnancy the woman has more control, later on the state has more control- are the best framework.

3.) Women have multiple, legitimate reasons for having abortions, which are no one's business but their own. To ban abortion or unreasonably restrict it would be to regress the progress of women's rights.
The same old arguments that don't stand up to scrutiny. It's one of these areas Skep where yo and I will never agree
 
Old 08-29-2014, 08:24 PM   #13
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Thank you Skeptic, that was a much kinder and well worded answer than what I may have given. I am too passionate to engage in the discussion calmly.
I don't think anyone would blame you, since for many, many years men have treated women as the inferior sex by pretending that only heterosexual, married sex for procreation (which inevitably left the women with most of the consequences of that i.e. pregnancy) was healthy.
 
Old 08-29-2014, 08:26 PM   #14
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The same old arguments that don't stand up to scrutiny. It's one of these areas Skep where yo and I will never agree
Well, sorry to sound blunt, but if you have actual arguments to the contrary, then I would love to hear them.

Last edited by SmilingSkeptic; 08-29-2014 at 08:28 PM.
 
Old 08-29-2014, 10:42 PM   #15
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The same old arguments that don't stand up to scrutiny. It's one of these areas Skep where yo and I will never agree
Life beginning at conception can't be disproven. Women are not always aware of available alternatives. Many women are left mentally scarred for life by abortion. Once again, who defends the rights of the unborn person?
 
Old 08-29-2014, 10:59 PM   #16
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Life beginning at conception can't be disproven. Women are not always aware of available alternatives. Many women are left mentally scarred for life by abortion. Once again, who defends the rights of the unborn person?
The claim for that has been asserted- but that's all it is, an assertion without a scientific consensus. There is still much disagreement. When does life begin? - RationalWiki The rest are, once again, not backed up by evidence.
 
Old 09-02-2014, 12:36 PM   #17
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Life beginning at conception can't be disproven.
Of course it can, it's trivially easy to do so. All you require is a particular definition of life.

In any case, law and abortion issues are not an issue of "life" but of legal personhood and conflicts of rights/interest.

I don;t think that either side is arguing -in favor of abortion-, or that a woman -should- have an abortion (though there are some hardcore overpopulation types that -do- argue for precisely that). One side is merely convinced that the state should not have the authority or ability to abrogate the rights of the female in favor of the rights of the fetus (whatever they may, ultimately, be). Perhaps doubting whether or not such illl thought through policy changes would be effective, and where else they would then become applicable.

Let me give you my opinion, it might be demonstrative. I'm firmly pro-choice - but I have a great and sorrowful disdain for the practice. I won't (and can't) argue that it is objectively morally wrong - all I can tell you with confidence is that it doesn't mesh with my own personal ethics. If you agree with me on a and b (and I could hit it from mutliple angles), the conclusion will be -don't have an abortion-, but if you don't agree with me on a and b then my argument is a non-starter. Non-starting arguments make for poor justifications of law, even if they are useful ethical/moral foundations.

I mean, I'm going to continue not having abortions (which is pretty easy for me..lol), but I'm going to continue avoiding a judgement on those that do. I'll keep offering info on alternatives, my money goes to pay for them, after all - but that money -will not- go to what must ultimately lead to incarceration based upon a non-starting difference of opinion.
 
Old 09-05-2014, 09:54 PM   #18
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I would like to share my experience with an abortion.
I am now a senior citizen and a seasoned Bahai and have spent a lifetime in coping with the knowledge that I survived being aborted. My parents did not want me and blamed me (and each other) for their problems. I did not know I was emotionally abused and neglected until I started grade-school and realized other kids lives were radically different... they had love and kindness from home. I eventually learned that I underwent several chemical attempts to be aborted, but survived.
My life is a tragedy with uncontrolled emotional responses leaving me alone, scared and scarred with physical abnormalities. My peace is through my Bahai Faith. I am lost and found again when I behold the forces and balances of creation.
 
Old 09-05-2014, 10:01 PM   #19
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Of course it can, it's trivially easy to do so. All you require is a particular definition of life.

In any case, law and abortion issues are not an issue of "life" but of legal personhood and conflicts of rights/interest.

I don;t think that either side is arguing -in favor of abortion-, or that a woman -should- have an abortion (though there are some hardcore overpopulation types that -do- argue for precisely that). One side is merely convinced that the state should not have the authority or ability to abrogate the rights of the female in favor of the rights of the fetus (whatever they may, ultimately, be). Perhaps doubting whether or not such illl thought through policy changes would be effective, and where else they would then become applicable.

Let me give you my opinion, it might be demonstrative. I'm firmly pro-choice - but I have a great and sorrowful disdain for the practice. I won't (and can't) argue that it is objectively morally wrong - all I can tell you with confidence is that it doesn't mesh with my own personal ethics. If you agree with me on a and b (and I could hit it from mutliple angles), the conclusion will be -don't have an abortion-, but if you don't agree with me on a and b then my argument is a non-starter. Non-starting arguments make for poor justifications of law, even if they are useful ethical/moral foundations.

I mean, I'm going to continue not having abortions (which is pretty easy for me..lol), but I'm going to continue avoiding a judgement on those that do. I'll keep offering info on alternatives, my money goes to pay for them, after all - but that money -will not- go to what must ultimately lead to incarceration based upon a non-starting difference of opinion.
I can't even begin to tell you all the reasons why I agree with that statement, Rhythm.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 02:15 AM   #20
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He ain't heavy. He's my brother

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I would like to share my experience with an abortion.
I am now a senior citizen and a seasoned Bahai and have spent a lifetime in coping with the knowledge that I survived being aborted. My parents did not want me and blamed me (and each other) for their problems. I did not know I was emotionally abused and neglected until I started grade-school and realized other kids lives were radically different... they had love and kindness from home. I eventually learned that I underwent several chemical attempts to be aborted, but survived.
My life is a tragedy with uncontrolled emotional responses leaving me alone, scared and scarred with physical abnormalities. My peace is through my Bahai Faith. I am lost and found again when I behold the forces and balances of creation.
Wow! James.
. This is like: "What would an aborted child have to say if he grew up?"

. I once took a speech class and was assigned to debate on the side against abortion. What I remember is the unimaginable cruelty and methods used against the unborn child. My children were born premature - two sets of twin girls. They managed to help them stay in the womb until a 8 months term. In some country, they abort them at that stage yet. In Muhammad's time, the daughters were being buried alive.

. All I've got to say is: "He ain't heavy... He's my brother..."

.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 02:25 AM   #21
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I would like to share my experience with an abortion.
I am now a senior citizen and a seasoned Bahai and have spent a lifetime in coping with the knowledge that I survived being aborted. My parents did not want me and blamed me (and each other) for their problems. I did not know I was emotionally abused and neglected until I started grade-school and realized other kids lives were radically different... they had love and kindness from home. I eventually learned that I underwent several chemical attempts to be aborted, but survived.
My life is a tragedy with uncontrolled emotional responses leaving me alone, scared and scarred with physical abnormalities. My peace is through my Bahai Faith. I am lost and found again when I behold the forces and balances of creation.
jamestruhero - God bless you dear friend - God works in mysterious ways and I am Glad you are here sharing the Love Regards Tony
 
Old 09-06-2014, 06:52 AM   #22
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If the subject here is whether abortion should be legal or not, in view of the Baha'i teachings, then against better judgement I can make a few comments:

- According to Baha'u'llah, life begins at conception, so a fetus is a human life.
- According to statements of the Guardian and the UHJ, abortion should never be used by Baha'is simply to avoid giving birth, although there may be circumstances where it is justified, including to save the life of the mother. The UHJ has stated it may be justified to protect the mother's health, including mental health.
- Abortion is an act that ends a human earthly life, so it must be considered only in the gravest of circumstances, but there are other recognized circumstances where that is justifiable, including self defense, defending the life of another, unavoidable acts of war, and (arguably) capital punishment. In rare cases of conjoined twins that share vital organs, doctors may need to sacrifice the life of one twin to save the other.
- One question that is not clearly answered in the Teachings as far as I know is whether there is a full equivalency between the life of a fetus and the life after birth. That question deserves prayerful study, and maybe asking the UHJ.

In any case, it seems to me that there should not be a complete prohibition of abortion in all cases, but we as Baha'is should do all we can to make sure it is never needed, including being sexually responsible, providing support to women who are pregnant and don't feel ready to have a child, support adoption, etc. at the same time we can't judge others because you can't fully know the circumstances.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 07:35 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by jamestruhero View Post
I would like to share my experience with an abortion.
I am now a senior citizen and a seasoned Bahai and have spent a lifetime in coping with the knowledge that I survived being aborted. My parents did not want me and blamed me (and each other) for their problems. I did not know I was emotionally abused and neglected until I started grade-school and realized other kids lives were radically different... they had love and kindness from home. I eventually learned that I underwent several chemical attempts to be aborted, but survived.
My life is a tragedy with uncontrolled emotional responses leaving me alone, scared and scarred with physical abnormalities. My peace is through my Bahai Faith. I am lost and found again when I behold the forces and balances of creation.
Dear friend, I am so happy for you, one that you survived such a family and your peace with the Baha'i faith. I can relate to both, although my parents did not try to abort me, my mother could not have any further children, and I was basically in the middle of much of their fighting. Often being told that I was unwanted. I understand what it is to live in such a family.

I send you much Baha'i love and best wishes, may your journey with Baha be a happy one.

Loving regards
Bill
 
Old 09-06-2014, 10:47 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by jamestruhero View Post
I would like to share my experience with an abortion.
I am now a senior citizen and a seasoned Bahai and have spent a lifetime in coping with the knowledge that I survived being aborted. My parents did not want me and blamed me (and each other) for their problems. I did not know I was emotionally abused and neglected until I started grade-school and realized other kids lives were radically different... they had love and kindness from home. I eventually learned that I underwent several chemical attempts to be aborted, but survived.
My life is a tragedy with uncontrolled emotional responses leaving me alone, scared and scarred with physical abnormalities. My peace is through my Bahai Faith. I am lost and found again when I behold the forces and balances of creation.
I want to also send my love and affirmation to James. The solution to tragic situations like his is to strengthen families and marriage, and make sure every child grows up wanted and loved.

I sometimes wonder about whether someone would have decided to abort me, since I was born with a birth defect, and that is one scenario that some use as justification of abortion. The birth defect I had was easily corrected surgically, so it's unlikely someone would do that, but with genetic testing available these days it is becoming common to consider abortion if the fetus is not "perfect". This again is a moral dilemma, that requires a renewal of moral values in society.
 
Old 09-06-2014, 11:11 AM   #25
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I want to also send my love and affirmation to James. The solution to tragic situations like his is to strengthen families and marriage, and make sure every child grows up wanted and loved.

I sometimes wonder about whether someone would have decided to abort me, since I was born with a birth defect, and that is one scenario that some use as justification of abortion. The birth defect I had was easily corrected surgically, so it's unlikely someone would do that, but with genetic testing available these days it is becoming common to consider abortion if the fetus is not "perfect". This again is a moral dilemma, that requires a renewal of moral values in society.
Dear Jcc, yes exactly a moral dilemma.

The reason as you have explained that at times God sends Messengers to make a law for His followers on what they should do. He takes the worry of what is correct out of our hands, and shows us the way. Of course if we obey or not then is up to us.
 
Old 09-07-2014, 01:15 AM   #26
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I remember reading somewhere about Beethoven. Apparently if he were alive today, the circumstances of his gestation would have led many women to have an abortion. I've no idea where I read this. Maybe someone can help
 
Old 09-07-2014, 07:59 AM   #27
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I remember reading somewhere about Beethoven. Apparently if he were alive today, the circumstances of his gestation would have led many women to have an abortion. I've no idea where I read this. Maybe someone can help
Dear aidan

I do not know of this, but possibly is true.

I have found this which is of interest.

Quote:
In a letter dated June 29, 1801 Beethoven told a friend in Bonn about a terrible secret he had for some time. He knew that he was becoming deaf.[10] For some time he had spells of fever and stomach pains. A young man does not expect to become deaf, but now he was starting to admit it to himself. He was finding it hard to hear what people were saying. Just at the moment when he was starting to become known as one of the greatest of all composers, it was a terrible blow to realize that he was losing his hearing. In 1802, he stayed for a time in Heiligenstadt which is now a suburb of Vienna but at that time it was outside the city. There he wrote a famous letter which is known as the Heiligenstadt Testament. It is dated October 6 and told about his rising frustration at his deafness. He asks people to forgive him if he cannot hear what they are saying. He said that he had often thought of suicide, but that he had so much music in his head which had to be written down that he decided to continue his life.[10] This very emotional letter was found amongst his papers after his death. It was never sent to anyone.
How wonderful that he did not take his own life, those who do are depriving the world in some way. My belief.

Loving regards
Bill
 
Old 09-07-2014, 09:09 AM   #28
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Yes, stories like those of James are tragic. They also don't matter in the broader context of the legal and moral debate surrounding a woman's sovereignty over her own body. The thing is, no matter the legal status of abortion, it sounds like his mother would have tried this anyway, and so I think we would all prefer that women have access to this legally so that they have a safe space to (hopefully) do this for the right reasons, rather than risking her own life with a coathanger.

The thing is, also, that it seems like she tried to do this in late term, when in fact the state does have an interest in restricting abortion and does so anyway. A few weeks in, the fetus has the potential to be a human, but it's a clump of cells at that point with no legal personhood. In the later trimesters, it becomes much more like a human being. Again, that makes the story rather moot, as much as my heart goes out to James.
 
Old 09-07-2014, 09:24 AM   #29
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Of course it can, it's trivially easy to do so. All you require is a particular definition of life.

In any case, law and abortion issues are not an issue of "life" but of legal personhood and conflicts of rights/interest.

I don;t think that either side is arguing -in favor of abortion-, or that a woman -should- have an abortion (though there are some hardcore overpopulation types that -do- argue for precisely that). One side is merely convinced that the state should not have the authority or ability to abrogate the rights of the female in favor of the rights of the fetus (whatever they may, ultimately, be). Perhaps doubting whether or not such illl thought through policy changes would be effective, and where else they would then become applicable.

Let me give you my opinion, it might be demonstrative. I'm firmly pro-choice - but I have a great and sorrowful disdain for the practice. I won't (and can't) argue that it is objectively morally wrong - all I can tell you with confidence is that it doesn't mesh with my own personal ethics. If you agree with me on a and b (and I could hit it from mutliple angles), the conclusion will be -don't have an abortion-, but if you don't agree with me on a and b then my argument is a non-starter. Non-starting arguments make for poor justifications of law, even if they are useful ethical/moral foundations.

I mean, I'm going to continue not having abortions (which is pretty easy for me..lol), but I'm going to continue avoiding a judgement on those that do. I'll keep offering info on alternatives, my money goes to pay for them, after all - but that money -will not- go to what must ultimately lead to incarceration based upon a non-starting difference of opinion.
I tend to go along with Rythmcs idea here, not judging others who do.

I know what the Baha'i faith says on the subject but this is only for Baha'is and is not binding on anyone else.

But again as Rythmcs says "I mean, I'm going to continue not having abortions (which is pretty easy for me..lol)" as I feel I am in the same circumstance also.

But I would like to state I would have no judgement either way, whether it was a Baha'i person or otherwise.

This is my personal view.
Loving regards to all
 
Old 11-20-2014, 02:59 PM   #30
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In Belfast an anti-abortion campaigner has been convicted of harassing a director of a Belfast abortion clinic. This brought me back to a memory which has tormented me for many years. As a youth, a student nurse 24 years old, I was doing the theatres module of my training. A particular morning I was rostered to assist with a woman's D and C procedure ( dilatation and curettage) usually done for heavy periods. At the end of the procedure, the surgeon asked for the "Products" to be disposed off. When I asked the nurse in charged what was meant by products she replied the "products of conception". This has haunted me all my life
 
Old 11-20-2014, 08:47 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by aidan View Post
Life beginning at conception can't be disproven. Women are not always aware of available alternatives. Many women are left mentally scarred for life by abortion. Once again, who defends the rights of the unborn person?

It's not his job to disprove it, you're the one making the claim therefor you should have to prove it.

"I have an apple"
"No you don't"
"You can't prove that I don't!"

This logic makes no sense, I'm sorry but I had to say it.
 
Old 11-20-2014, 08:50 PM   #32
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Also, you shouldn't judge anybody. Besides, some people actually should have one since it's in the best interest of the child..Such as a teen pregnancy or a mother who's baby daddy left her and she has no money,

Seriously, as Bahá'ís we should be focused on promoting peace, love and unity instead of worrying whether somebody is getting an abortion or not.
 
Old 11-20-2014, 09:37 PM   #33
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Also, you shouldn't judge anybody. Besides, some people actually should have one since it's in the best interest of the child..Such as a teen pregnancy or a mother who's baby daddy left her and she has no money,

Seriously, as Bahá'ís we should be focused on promoting peace, love and unity instead of worrying whether somebody is getting an abortion or not.
You astound me
 
Old 11-21-2014, 08:52 AM   #34
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This thread was a "Gotcha" to draw people into a controversial issue. OP, did you get what you wanted?
 
Old 11-21-2014, 04:07 PM   #35
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This is totally untrue and unfir. I'm an ardent anti- abortionistand is always want the issues highlighted and debated. Why would I waist my time and that of others by inciting confrontation? I'm neither so shallow nor duplicitous
 
Old 11-22-2014, 09:01 AM   #36
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This is totally untrue and unfir. I'm an ardent anti- abortionistand is always want the issues highlighted and debated. Why would I waist my time and that of others by inciting confrontation? I'm neither so shallow nor duplicitous
Dear aidan I for one accept that you started this thread to discuss and look at all ideas.
But it is for some people a very heated subject, many feel one way and others another and then all those who fall in between. I feel like the old saying goes, some go where angels fear to tread.

As I understand as Baha'is at this time it is left to our understanding, there is no enforced law as it were.
 
Old 11-22-2014, 01:04 PM   #37
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An observation

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Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Dear aidan I for one accept that you started this thread to discuss and look at all ideas.
But it is for some people a very heated subject, many feel one way and others another and then all those who fall in between. I feel like the old saying goes, some go where angels fear to tread.

As I understand as Baha'is at this time it is left to our understanding, there is no enforced law as it were.
. It crossed my mind that in the time of the appearance of Muhammad, it was common practice to bury unwanted baby girls alive. Now, often times, we do not yet wait until they are born to bury them, and usually in trash containers.

. Still, it is an extremely difficult issue. Generally speaking, men (who do not get pregnant) have made the moral decisions, yet leaving the work and expense of raising babies to the women far too many times.

. The observation of the Law of Marriage and some sensible birth control would prevent 95% of all unwanted babies.

. There is such a degree of abortion of females in China that the proportion of males to females, which I've heard is something like 120 to 100, is going to have a significant impact upon how society functions. Who knows what the consequences of this will be. More aggression? War as an outlet do to excess male population???

.
 
Old 11-23-2014, 08:07 AM   #38
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This is a very weird article.

The whole Pro-Life/Pro-Choice debate is one of the fiercest in the political climate of my country at the moment, and is a thing that has become purely partisan, so I will of course refrain from talking about it or taking sides here.

But the specific law on the other hand, that abortion clinics should have the same standards as hospitals: the opposition to this confuses me a bit (well, politics not making sense is to be expected I guess, so perhaps not confusing).

I'm not sure whether or not this should be a law, as I'm the kind of person who thinks less human laws are preferable, but personally, in an Alternate Universe where I was not only capable of having an abortion but in a position where I needed to have one, I'd want the abortion clinic I used to have the same standards as a hospital, and would not use one that did not measure up, law or no law on the matter.

In fact, I wouldn't really want to undergo any medical proceedure at any clinic that didn't have the same sorts of standards as a hospital. It seems like common sense for health and safety.

Am I missing something here, or is this just politics being weird as usual??
 
Old 11-23-2014, 09:13 AM   #39
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From: Quilimari,Chile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
This is a very weird article.

The whole Pro-Life/Pro-Choice debate is one of the fiercest in the political climate of my country at the moment, and is a thing that has become purely partisan, so I will of course refrain from talking about it or taking sides here.

But the specific law on the other hand, that abortion clinics should have the same standards as hospitals: the opposition to this confuses me a bit (well, politics not making sense is to be expected I guess, so perhaps not confusing).

I'm not sure whether or not this should be a law, as I'm the kind of person who thinks less human laws are preferable, but personally, in an Alternate Universe where I was not only capable of having an abortion but in a position where I needed to have one, I'd want the abortion clinic I used to have the same standards as a hospital, and would not use one that did not measure up, law or no law on the matter.

In fact, I wouldn't really want to undergo any medical proceedure at any clinic that didn't have the same sorts of standards as a hospital. It seems like common sense for health and safety.

Am I missing something here, or is this just politics being weird as usual??
I can agree whole heartedly with what you say,.
If a person chose to have an abortion (their choice) I also would like to see them go to a clinic with strict quality control for the safety of the heath of the patient.

I understand this has become a very volotile subject, but I would feel from my own thinking this is no different to say enforcement of religion, as in say countries where Islam is the only accepted and anyone stepping outside of that can be killed.
Until the Universal House of Justice makes a ruling re this subject, I feel we Baha'is should not enter into such a (at this time) political debate, no matter what we feel is correct.
Just my feeling. (personal)
 
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