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Old 12-08-2015, 05:40 PM   #1
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Christmas is for Baha'is too

Jesus and Bahaullah , though separate manifestations, have identical natures. Therefore when Jesus is celebrated at Christmas so is Baha'u'llah
 
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Old 12-09-2015, 01:56 PM   #2
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Plus Christmas is just fun!! And it's about two months long these days!!
 
Old 12-11-2015, 02:31 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by aidan View Post
Jesus and Bahaullah , though separate manifestations, have identical natures. Therefore when Jesus is celebrated at Christmas so is Baha'u'llah
Hi Aidan,

They have 'identical natures' only in as much as both were human. And when was the last time you heard Baha'u'llah celebrated (or even mentioned) at any Christian ceremony?

Have a nice day,

Paul
 
Old 12-11-2015, 06:42 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hi Aidan,

They have 'identical natures' only in as much as both were human. And when was the last time you heard Baha'u'llah celebrated (or even mentioned) at any Christian ceremony?

Have a nice day,

Paul
'Abdu'l-Bahá used to attend prayers in the mosque.

And, on the whole, as a Swede, I'm not so sure what we celebrate - the connection between Christmas and Christ is doubtful to say the least, as, most probably, He was born in spring. We do know that, since times immemorial, we have celebrated our traditional Yule, the traditions of which have survived to a large extent - with some details, like the obligatory human sacrifice, downplayed a bit. But why not have a great party when there is an opportunity?

gnat
 
Old 12-11-2015, 07:34 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
'Abdu'l-Bahá used to attend prayers in the mosque.

And, on the whole, as a Swede, I'm not so sure what we celebrate - the connection between Christmas and Christ is doubtful to say the least, as, most probably, He was born in spring. We do know that, since times immemorial, we have celebrated our traditional Yule, the traditions of which have survived to a large extent - with some details, like the obligatory human sacrifice, downplayed a bit. But why not have a great party when there is an opportunity?

gnat
Why not indeed! And don't forget that pint you owe me
 
Old 12-11-2015, 07:43 AM   #6
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Christmas historically and now has seldom been a religious holiday. How its celebrated now compared to the scary raucus mess it was in the 1700's and earlier is a relief.

For my family its a great time to get everyone together in one spot and enjoy the company and the lights. I'll come out and say it: Christmas has more to do with Charles Dickens and electric lighting than some dubious connection to the birth of Christ. I do not mean that disrespectfully.

So while, no, there aren't hundreds of millions of Christians praising Baha'u'llah on December 25th and caroling "Blessed is the Spot" at every door, that doesn't bother me. Maybe Ayami-i-Ha will be just as well known as other gift-giving holidays, someday.

The rampant, horrific commercialism is sad. People thinking about their shopping so much they forget their driving. (I live right next to a shopping mall. I've seen several wrecks in the last week, and someone hit our car, too, at the airport) It's not a great time for a lot of people.

Honestly this time of year used to really depress me. But I am coming out of it. Our winters are almost-cold-but-not-quite-steel-great-rainy-affairs. I can see why everyone , especially in a northern climate, wants to celebrate getting out of the season and into the next one.
 
Old 12-11-2015, 03:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hi Aidan,

They have 'identical natures' only in as much as both were human. And when was the last time you heard Baha'u'llah celebrated (or even mentioned) at any Christian ceremony?

Have a nice day,

Paul
Paul this is a basic dogma of our belief. I wouldn't dream of ridiculing a dogma of Islam which might possibly give offence
 
Old 12-12-2015, 05:52 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hi Aidan,

They have 'identical natures' only in as much as both were human. And when was the last time you heard Baha'u'llah celebrated (or even mentioned) at any Christian ceremony?

Have a nice day,

Paul
Coming to think of it, there is a difference. The Muslim ceremonies are divinely-ordained. The Christian ones, on the contrary, are man-made. No wonder, then, that I've never seen mention of Bahá'u'lláh attending a Christian ceremony.

gnat
 
Old 12-12-2015, 08:39 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by aidan View Post
Paul this is a basic dogma of our belief. I wouldn't dream of ridiculing a dogma of Islam which might possibly give offence
Aidan.

Ridicule, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I was not mocking your comment; rather, I was stating a fact (Yeshua and Baha'u'llah were human beings). I appreciate that Christians (not the Unitarians) would argue that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) is far more than just a human; that his human nature is assumed into the unity and dominion of the Divine Person, so that the latter operates in the human nature and through the human nature, as its organ. For sure, they would not say the same about Baha'u'llah.

I also asked a question: ‘When was the last time you heard Baha'u'llah celebrated (or even mentioned) at any Christian ceremony?’ Since you have not answered this question I can only assume that your reply would be: ‘Never’. In which case I would say: ‘Neither have I!’

I was not aware that your statement: ‘Jesus and Baha'u'llah, though separate manifestations, have identical natures. Therefore when Jesus is celebrated at Christmas so is Baha'u'llah’ is a ‘basic dogma of (your) belief.’ Feel free to elaborate.

Of course you would not ridicule Islamic dogma. Deny…..certainly, but never ridicule. That is precisely my stance vis-ŕ-vis the faith of the Baha’i. By the way, I would never say of those who deny my religion that they are ‘blind and ignoble people.’ (Kitab-i-iquan; Part 2. Page 99).

Have a good day, and very best regards,

Paul.
 
Old 12-12-2015, 02:40 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Aidan.

Ridicule, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I was not mocking your comment; rather, I was stating a fact (Yeshua and Baha'u'llah were human beings). I appreciate that Christians (not the Unitarians) would argue that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) is far more than just a human; that his human nature is assumed into the unity and dominion of the Divine Person, so that the latter operates in the human nature and through the human nature, as its organ. For sure, they would not say the same about Baha'u'llah.

I also asked a question: ‘When was the last time you heard Baha'u'llah celebrated (or even mentioned) at any Christian ceremony?’ Since you have not answered this question I can only assume that your reply would be: ‘Never’. In which case I would say: ‘Neither have I!’

I was not aware that your statement: ‘Jesus and Baha'u'llah, though separate manifestations, have identical natures. Therefore when Jesus is celebrated at Christmas so is Baha'u'llah’ is a ‘basic dogma of (your) belief.’ Feel free to elaborate.

Of course you would not ridicule Islamic dogma. Deny…..certainly, but never ridicule. That is precisely my stance vis-ŕ-vis the faith of the Baha’i. By the way, I would never say of those who deny my religion that they are ‘blind and ignoble people.’ (Kitab-i-iquan; Part 2. Page 99).

Have a good day, and very best regards,

Paul.
Honest, genuine question. Why are you posting so much on a Baha'I forum?
 
Old 12-12-2015, 03:28 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by rose View Post
Honest, genuine question. Why are you posting so much on a Baha'I forum?
Because I'm a member
 
Old 12-12-2015, 04:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Of course you would not ridicule Islamic dogma. Deny…..certainly, but never ridicule. That is precisely my stance vis-ŕ-vis the faith of the Baha’i. By the way, I would never say of those who deny my religion that they are ‘blind and ignoble people.’ (Kitab-i-iquan; Part 2. Page 99) Have a good day, and very best regards, Paul.
Dear Paul - These comments are directed at the Divines that hold the responsibility of teaching the Word of God with Justice and Fairness.

I would ask how many Koran passages do you think I will find if I looked, where Muhummad Rebuked the Wayward Generation that receives His message?

You will also find Christ did the same.

Regards Tony
 
Old 12-13-2015, 03:23 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Because I'm a member
gotcha... lol

I remember as a teen I went through a significant atheist phase. I used to chat in an atheist chatroom, and thsee ChristIan and Muslim folks would come into our chat a lot. It seemed either to argue for fun or to convert people/save souls.

Well, even though I was a staunch nonbeliever I found myself spending more time in their religious chats and eventually had to admit that deep down I wanted to be there even though I didn't believe. I wanted to believe what they believed but struggled with it. I was attracted to it even though it didn't fully compute in my head.

So just thought you might be in the same boat. It's why I still post here even though I'm not a declared Baha'i. I struggle with it (though less so these days) yet I can't deny the attraction.
 
Old 12-13-2015, 03:27 AM   #14
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By the way, I would never say of those who deny my religion that they are ‘blind and ignoble people.’ (Kitab-i-iquan; Part 2. Page 99).

Paul.
And I wouldn't either. It seems like the Manifestations of God have ways, inscrutable to the rest of us.

gnat
 
Old 12-13-2015, 04:52 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
Dear Paul - These comments are directed at the Divines that hold the responsibility of teaching the Word of God with Justice and Fairness.

I would ask how many Koran passages do you think I will find if I looked, where Muhummad Rebuked the Wayward Generation that receives His message?

You will also find Christ did the same.

Regards Tony
Hi Tony,

Many thanks.

Have a great week, and very best regards,

Paul
 
Old 12-13-2015, 04:55 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by rose View Post
gotcha... lol

I remember as a teen I went through a significant atheist phase. I used to chat in an atheist chatroom, and thsee ChristIan and Muslim folks would come into our chat a lot. It seemed either to argue for fun or to convert people/save souls.

Well, even though I was a staunch nonbeliever I found myself spending more time in their religious chats and eventually had to admit that deep down I wanted to be there even though I didn't believe. I wanted to believe what they believed but struggled with it. I was attracted to it even though it didn't fully compute in my head.

So just thought you might be in the same boat. It's why I still post here even though I'm not a declared Baha'i. I struggle with it (though less so these days) yet I can't deny the attraction.
Hello Rose (my Mother’s name, by the way).

I don’t argue for fun these days (used to….rather a lot… when younger); and I certainly have no intention of ‘converting people’ or ‘saving souls’. God forbid!

No. I came here by the invitation of Dr. Susan Maneck (not one of her better decisions, some might say); and I remain because I like the people - even the very few who drive me nuts at times (perhaps especially them); because - even at the age of seventy - I love to learn, and to share the experiences of other people; because debate (or rather the research necessary for debate) is great exercise for the brain; and because I admire people who are committed to a particular religion, and who are enthusiastic for it. The fact that I don’t agree with all - perhaps most - of their beliefs is not a problem; at least not for me. The one difficulty I have is when I’m asked to comment on a particular Islamic (or Christian) doctrine that is in direct opposition to the teachings of the Baha’i. I was once accused (a long time ago, and rightly) of being as ‘subtle as a brick’. Age has brought a certain mellowness, but I still tend to ‘tell it as it is’, and am not always mindful of the feelings of others. Most of the time my method is to first write my post; then sit on it for a day or two; then edit out any ‘bricky’ bits; and then send it. This seems to work pretty well. The trouble comes when I rush it, and when the ‘bricky’ bits get posted too! ‘Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit’…………as we used to say when I was a Buff. In short, I stay with this site because I enjoy it.

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Paul

Last edited by Niblo; 12-13-2015 at 05:04 AM.
 
Old 12-13-2015, 05:02 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
And I wouldn't either. It seems like the Manifestations of God have ways, inscrutable to the rest of us.

gnat
Indeed.

God willing, my wife and I will be in Bergen on the 14th of January. Going for a boat trip up the Norwegian coast to some place or other near the Russian border, and back again. I'll wave in the general direction of Stockholm before landing at the airport. Keep an eye out for us

Have a great week, and very best regards.

Paul

Last edited by Niblo; 12-13-2015 at 05:05 AM.
 
Old 12-13-2015, 05:07 AM   #18
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Indeed.

God willing, my wife and I will be in Bergen on the 14th of January. Going for a boat trip up the Norwegian coast to some place or other near the Russian border, and back again. I'll wave in the general direction of Stockholm before landing at the airport. Keep an eye out for us

Have a great week, and very best regards.

Paul
Sounds great, if you're fond of snow, icy winds and complete darkness. Meanwhile, I'll look around to see if I can find some ‘blind and ignoble people.’

Best

from

gnat
 
Old 12-13-2015, 07:14 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
Sounds great, if you're fond of snow, icy winds and complete darkness. Meanwhile, I'll look around to see if I can find some ‘blind and ignoble people.’

Best

from

gnat
LOL.

We're a bunch of rufty-tufties in the Valleys!
 
Old 12-17-2015, 06:45 AM   #20
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My husband and I put on a substantial Christmas brunch for our community at the community center. Everybody in the surrounding area is welcome to come and enjoy fellowship and good food. Many people don't have anyone to spend the holiday with or enough food to eat. It is a wonderful way for this Baha'i to spend Christmas. When family visits, they pitch in and help, so they share in the Blessings of service, too.
Merry Christmas Everyone!
Loving Baha'i regards,
Becky
 
Old 12-17-2015, 08:46 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
Coming to think of it, there is a difference. The Muslim ceremonies are divinely-ordained. The Christian ones, on the contrary, are man-made. No wonder, then, that I've never seen mention of Bahá'u'lláh attending a Christian ceremony.

gnat
Perhaps not Baha'u'llah Himself but I do recall reading of Abdu'l-Baha taking part in various Protestant Christian ceremonies. He also celebrated Christmas one year in a Salvation Army hospice, with the poor and downtrodden.

In that same visit, he was mistaken by a group of children as being Santa Claus!

Quote:
Later, on Christmas day, He visited Lord Lamington. In the evening He went to a Salvation Army hostel, where some five hundred of society’s wrecks were gathered. He spoke to them, and donated twenty guineas to the hostel to provide them with a good meal and another night, as His guests. He also inspected the sleeping accommodation of the hostel, and a children’s home as well. When He reached Cadogan Gardens that night, it was apparent that the sight of the condition of the unfortunate had distressed Him. A good many of His talks, in His drawing-room during the Christmas week, were concerned with the Birth and the Advent of Christ and the significance of baptism. One day He walked for an hour or so in Hyde Park and Kensington Gardens. Afterwards He went to a Christmas party for the impoverished. Wherever He came across children He showed them such kindness and consideration that some of them thought He was Father Christmas, and sang a song in His praise. At His London home, that day, He related an incident of days long past in ‘Akká:

‘I encountered a number of the poor who were very hungry, and they came to me a-begging. I pointed out a grocer’s shop to them that was well-provisioned, and told them to help themselves and eat all they could; I would be responsible. As soon as they heard me say that, those hungry ill-starred people made a rush and looted the shop. The shopkeeper was screaming that he was being robbed, but no one took any notice of him. They were eating even the uncooked rice, and took provisions away with them.’ Later, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá compensated the grocer.

(H.M. Balyuzi, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá - The Centre of the Covenant, p. 351)
 
Old 12-17-2015, 09:13 AM   #22
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Jesus and Bahaullah , though separate manifestations, have identical natures. Therefore when Jesus is celebrated at Christmas so is Baha'u'llah
Adian, I often thought it would be nice to have an official Bahai hoilday that is about celebrating and acknowledging all Manifestations, known and unknown. It would also perhaps help make new adherients as it would recognize the Manifestation that they've known and loved.
 
Old 12-17-2015, 03:06 PM   #23
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Adian, I often thought it would be nice to have an official Bahai hoilday that is about celebrating and acknowledging all Manifestations, known and unknown. It would also perhaps help make new adherients as it would recognize the Manifestation that they've known and loved.
A wonderful idea Michael, it would be a comfort for Christians and Muslims and others to know that we too venerate their loved one
 
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