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Old 10-06-2016, 02:21 PM   #1
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Nazarethan Baha'i faith view of prayer from death

Nazarethan Baha'i faith view of prayer from death

Bible and Quran forbidden pray for death, this practice according scriptures are necromancy - kind of idolatry. Deaths are not living persons, man is creatures not "little gods" , of corse some people are "like gods" (spiritual children of God). But still they are not Creators but creatures

Bible forbidden necromancy because "starving spirits" (demons) desires adoration, sometimes they revealed as foster "relatives" and bid to worship the creatures (angels, mortal persons, deaths). This is not good way, even whose pray to God on cemetery, it's forbidden by Bible and Quran
Examples from Bible

Quran 12:106 "Themajorityof those whobelieve in GODdo not do so withoutcommitting idol worship"

Quran 7:194 " The idols you invoke besides GOD are creatures like you. Go ahead and call upon them; let them respond to you, if you are right."

Quran 3:79 " Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the" teachings you learn.
Quran 16:20-21 " As for the idols they set up beside GOD, they do not create anything; they themselves were created. They are dead, not alive, and they have no idea how or when they will be resurrected"


Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you."
 
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Old 10-06-2016, 03:39 PM   #2
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Oh, you are so naughty, so wicked. We are so upset. Satisfied?

gnat
 
Old 10-07-2016, 01:36 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat View Post
Oh, you are so naughty, so wicked. We are so upset. Satisfied?

gnat
I am for you and not against YOU, I respect your beliefs but Bible and Quran say clearly prayer for death is sin of idolatry. It's your way what you choose, you get a free will and own reason
 
Old 10-07-2016, 03:02 AM   #4
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Quran never says praying for the dead people is a sin!!!!! there are also tablets revealed by Imams as prayers to the dead people. also God Himself sends praises to the good spirits of death people.
 
Old 10-07-2016, 03:09 AM   #5
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Some children reach a moment, when they discover the wonderful world of nasty words. They try them out to test their environment. Then there are others, who look into other people's beliefs and figure our what they consider as the worst possible action. In the Bahá'í Faith, the creation of sects within the Faith is really a bad thing. So, if you have that childish urge to upset people, you try your best.

Out of the kindness of my heart, I therefore try to make such a person happy, by responding in the appropriate manner: "Oh you are so bad. You are doing such a nasty thing!"

But honestly, I se this as childish, immature behaviour that doesn't upset me a bit. I'm just bored. One has a certain amount of years on this earth, and the choice as to what to do with them. This is just a loss of time for all of us.

Best

from

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Old 10-07-2016, 10:56 AM   #6
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The gauntlet has been cast. Scriptures have been erroneously cited!! The scripture-junky Walrus is compelled to respond!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Bible forbidden necromancy because "starving spirits" (demons) desires adoration, sometimes they revealed as foster "relatives"
Citation needed. Again you give your views on demonology but no reasons for believing those views. Why should I trust you know more about demonology than any other random person??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Examples from Bible

Quran 12:106 "Themajorityof those whobelieve in GODdo not do so withoutcommitting idol worship"
Nitpick: "Examples from Bible" is immediately preceded with Quranic verse.

Debunk: Praying for something is different than praying to something. If praying for the dead was the same as idolatry, then praying for anything else would be idolatry as well.

Let's examine a part of the Lord's Prayer. "Give us this day our daily bread" would be, according to your logic, a prayer to bread as an idol. Because if praying for a dead person is praying to them, then praying for bread is the same as praying to bread.

All those persons who say the Lord's Prayer are dastardly BREAD WORSHIPPERS!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Quran 7:194 " The idols you invoke besides GOD are creatures like you. Go ahead and call upon them; let them respond to you, if you are right."
Debunk: Haha, what?!

The whole Quran quote here, in context, is "Do they associate with Him those who create nothing and they are [themselves] created? And the false deities are unable to [give] them help, nor can they help themselves. And if you [believers] invite them to guidance, they will not follow you. It is all the same for you whether you invite them or you are silent. Indeed, those you [polytheists] call upon besides Allah are servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful. Do they have feet by which they walk? Or do they have hands by which they strike? Or do they have eyes by which they see? Or do they have ears by which they hear?" (emphasis added)

This verse is a CHALLENGE to polytheists to call upon their idols to show their power, if they are honest then their idols should respond. The point is that the idol does not and cannot respond. The point is that the idols have no power. Look at the parts of the verse I underlined. They clearly show that the verse teaches the exact opposite of what you are saying. You claim the idols are evil spirits. The Quran verse you cited claims they are powerless objects. It's literally saying the opposite of the claim you are using it as proof for

I'm guessing it's possible you read the phrase "and are themselves created" and assumed idols were evil spirits or living things. This is false. In the original Arabic "created" can refer to nonliving, inanimate objects as well, if that clears anything up for you. Worshiping a "created thing" doesn't have to be a demon or evil spirit. Worshiping a "created thing" can be a lifeless rock or hunk of metal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Quran 3:79 " Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the" teachings you learn.
Debunk: See first debunk. Praying for is not praying to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Quran 16:20-21 " As for the idols they set up beside GOD, they do not create anything; they themselves were created. They are dead, not alive, and they have no idea how or when they will be resurrected"
Verse is clearly about how idols are not "evil spirits" but are lifeless, created objects. If I build a golden bull and worship it, the Quran specifically says I'm not worshiping an evil spirit, as you claim, it says I am worshiping a lifeless hunk of metal.

Thanks for providing me with plenty of verses that actually debunk your claims, though. Saves me the work of doing it myself!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you."
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 forbids:
-Acts of prestidigitation
-Professing to tell the future
-Trying to contact the dead
-Trying to summon the dead

Debunk: None of those things are "praying for the dead".

Conclusion:

You make two claims here, essentially. Claim #1 is Praying for the dead is idolatry. Claim #2 is Idolatry is bad. The conclusion of these axioms is "Praying for the dead is bad".

Every verse you cite in the Quran supports Claim #2, showing that it is true. Idolatry is bad.

NOTHING you quote shows claim #1 to be true. It does not follow. You'd need a verse to show #1 is true before your conclusion makes sense.

Your one bible quote only shows that summoning up spooky scary skeletons is bad. As is attempting to communicate with the dead. (and those laws have actually been abrogated, so if anyone out there is an actual necromancer, summon away, lol )

You set up two premises that lead to a conclusion, but only proved one premise.

PS Nitpick: I've mentioned it before but "Nazarethan" isn't actually a word in English, the word you are looking for is "Nazarene".

Last edited by Walrus; 10-07-2016 at 11:22 AM.
 
Old 10-07-2016, 05:35 PM   #7
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Walrus, you and Bahais do the same wrong way worship by prayers death like catholics or ortodox Christians, pray for death is abomination and bring the calamity
 
Old 10-07-2016, 05:39 PM   #8
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Maryamr quotes " there are also tablets revealed by Imams as prayers to the dead people"

Immams are clergy of Shia Islam . Shia Islam is corrupted Islam, they thinks that words of Immams is equal words of God like Quran and Bible, and this is the false religion and tradition. Sunni Muslims haven't any clergy,sunni Immams are only like Baha'i counselors

Last edited by Babism; 10-07-2016 at 05:41 PM.
 
Old 10-07-2016, 05:48 PM   #9
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Sunni hadith of Muhammad forbidden pray for death

“Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship, but you must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that.” (Sahih Muslim)
“May Allah’s curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“Do not sit on the graves and do not pray facing towards them.” (Sahih Bukhari)

Link Shrines and grave worship | The Revival
 
Old 10-07-2016, 06:53 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Sunni hadith of Muhammad forbidden pray for death

“Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship, but you must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that.” (Sahih Muslim)
“May Allah’s curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“Do not sit on the graves and do not pray facing towards them.” (Sahih Bukhari)

Link Shrines and grave worship | The Revival
The only thing you produce is meaningless words, intended to upset people. Don't you ever feel ashamed of yourself, naughty boy?

gnat
 
Old 10-07-2016, 11:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat View Post
The only thing you produce is meaningless words, intended to upset people. Don't you ever feel ashamed of yourself, naughty boy?

gnat
Hadiths is words of Muhammad, so you claim he is naughty?
Verses from Deuteronomy is words of Moses, so for you his revelation is also false?
 
Old 10-10-2016, 05:43 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Walrus, you and Bahais do the same wrong way worship by prayers death like catholics or ortodox Christians, pray for death is abomination and bring the calamity
[Citation Needed]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Immams are clergy of Shia Islam . Shia Islam is corrupted Islam, they thinks that words of Immams is equal words of God like Quran and Bible, and this is the false religion and tradition.
[Citation Needed]. From "Babism". A name that invokes a person who confirmed the Imams of the Twelvers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Sunni Muslims haven't any clergy,sunni Immams are only like Baha'i counselors
Councilors: Work to stimulate the growth and vibrancy of the Bahá’í community, promoting the development of its spiritual, intellectual, and social life.

Imams: Study scriptures and Hadith, issuing fatwas to establish fiqh and establishing the authenticity or inauthenticity of Hadith.

Those two stations are not alike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Sunni hadith of Muhammad forbidden pray for death

“Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship, but you must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that.” (Sahih Muslim)
“May Allah’s curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“Do not sit on the graves and do not pray facing towards them.” (Sahih Bukhari)
Even if I was willing to accept the validity of Sunni Hadith, these Hadith verses all forbid worship at graveyards or building mosques atop a grave. This action is not the same as the action of praying for the dead. Once again the verses you cite don't even remotely come close to saying what you claim they do or supporting your position.

Once again, you conflate praying for the dead with things that are only tangentially similar.

Offer a citation that directly supports what you wish to say, or stop misquoting things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Hadiths is words of Muhammad, so you claim he is naughty?
Verses from Deuteronomy is words of Moses, so for you his revelation is also false?
I don't generally like Hadith for many reasons (overall, the existence of a Quran should negate any need for Hadith), but even assuming those Hadiths you have provided ARE the words of Muhammad, neither the Hadiths you site, Surah you cite, nor the Deuteronomy verses you cite even mention praying for the dead. You falsely conflate praying to with praying for, or falsely conflate conjuration of with praying for, or falsely conflate praying at a grave to praying for the dead. I won't speak for Gnat, but I'd suspect he is calling you naughty for misquoting things, not calling the scriptures naughty, because not a single scripture you cited supports your arguments. Learn to cite sources better please.

Your current quality of scripture citation is like saying "the bible forbids loving yourself" because Mark 12:31 reads "Love your neighbor as yourself." The verse cited does not actually support the ridiculous claim.
 
Old 10-10-2016, 08:03 AM   #13
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It's more simple than that. Someone here has figured out what we as Bahá'ís abhor the most and then delivers it, like a child who has learned nasty words at school. So, I just give him what he's asking for, out of the kindness of my heart.

Personally, I'm now rapidly losing interest in this site. It's contaminated.

gnat
 
Old 10-14-2016, 05:42 AM   #14
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Walrus, don't mix will of God and warnings with hatred, God want to rescue you by his Holy Words, don't reject Him, if you don't recognise Bible as word of God and infallible words of God, you and others lay in deep abomination, I speak what do you dislike, this is message to today world
 
Old 10-14-2016, 06:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babism View Post
Walrus, don't mix will of God and warnings with hatred, God want to rescue you by his Holy Words, don't reject Him, if you don't recognise Bible as word of God and infallible words of God, you and others lay in deep abomination, I speak what do you dislike, this is message to today world
I don't reject the words. I recognize the words for what they say.

I'd say one who reads the Word and decides to invent their own meaning is one who rejects the Word in their heart.

One who accepts the Word of God has no need to invent new meaning.

I accept the words when they read "don't build a shrine at a graveyard", and I have not built any shrines at any graveyards. I don't reject the verse by making up my own meanings.

It is rejection of the Word of God when one reads "don't build a shrine at a graveyard" and decides to make up their own meaning of "don't pray for the dead."

Pawel, to truly accept the Word of God and the Bible as Truth, you must be willing to accept that the verses say only what they say, and not what you, personally, want them to say.

None of the verses you have quoted here on this thread have you truly accepted, for you reject their meanings and invent your own.

I personally accept scripture as written and nothing more. That is what accepting the Word of God is.

To say that any of the verses you cited forbid "praying for the dead" when none of them say this is a rejection of these verses.

If you have not rejected the Word of God, then simply explain, how do you read the words “Do not sit on the graves and do not pray facing towards them”, as just one example, and think that forbids praying for someone who has died?? Explain how that Hadith says what you claim, if you do not in fact reject that Hadith.

Also: You never answer my questions. Ever.

Last edited by Walrus; 10-14-2016 at 06:27 AM.
 
Old 10-14-2016, 07:52 AM   #16
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I see walrus and other mainstream Bahais only get philosophy, I don't judge you, I'm no without sins, but mainstream Bahais will go to wide way strait lead to hell, you call laught walrus, for you hell is only "metaphorical " , when be to late, I am only warnings. God is not made from water and flour like eucharist, I am no Catholic, Catholicism isn't not Christianity, be true Christianity meaning follower of Jesus in every his words, I try to be good Christian, Muslim, baha'i and Sikh

Last edited by Babism; 10-14-2016 at 07:57 AM.
 
Old 10-14-2016, 09:26 AM   #17
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Well, trying to approach this rationally won't work.

Maybe I'll try approaching Pawel in Pawel's own writing style.

Step 1: Ignore everything he says.
Step 2: Tell him to read the bible because he is wrong.
Step 3: Offer no proof of his being incorrect.
Step 4: Insert accusative language.
Step 5: Add in completely unrelated claim to the discussion for no reason, offer no proof.

Proper Pawel Response To Pawel:

"Pawel, you really need to read the bible and stop denying Christ's Word!! I don't judge, but you're totally on the path to hell because you reject the Word of God. Read the bible more because you are wrong. The bible teaches that eating bats is blasphemy. Read the bible, stop denying the Word of God. You just need to have more faith in God."
 
Old 10-14-2016, 12:20 PM   #18
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Whatever laughing and mistranslated Bible will be sent calamity from God
Bible say :
" Matthew 24:37-39King James Version (KJV)
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"

2 Peter 3:4-10
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...0&version=NKJV

Baha’u'llah was only spiritual return of Jesus but not physical return of son of God , Jesus return how is writing in Zechariah 14:4, it's not symbolical this is true
 
Old 10-14-2016, 12:24 PM   #19
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Maranatha, Maranatha, Maranatha
 
Old 10-14-2016, 12:28 PM   #20
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Oh thanks, I almost forgot a step.

Step 1: Ignore everything he says.
Step 2: Tell him to read the bible because he is wrong.
Step 3: Offer no proof of his being incorrect.
Step 4: Insert accusative language.
Step 5: Add in completely unrelated claim to the discussion for no reason, offer no proof.
Step 6: Accuse other of laughter.

"Pawel, you're wrong and on the path to evil. Go read the Bible so you can free yourself from Satan's clutches. You are supposed to call to prayer with voice and not bell. Bells are evil. You may laugh, but this is only because you deny God's word and need to read the bible."
 
Old 10-14-2016, 12:37 PM   #21
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Pan przychodzi, Jesus is Coming, Maranatha
 
Old 10-14-2016, 12:51 PM   #22
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Jesus is always coming and always will be coming. This is fact. Now go read the bible.
 
Old 10-15-2016, 02:08 AM   #23
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hey Pawel, I have a question from you

if you think your INVENTED faith is worthy, why don't you go make a forum, a personal website, for yourself? why have you come here to promote your religion? it is a futile effort friend. we won't listen to you. it is better if you make your call more wide spread than just being restricted to this little forum of ours!
 
Old 10-15-2016, 03:14 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
hey Pawel, I have a question from you

if you think your INVENTED faith is worthy, why don't you go make a forum, a personal website, for yourself? why have you come here to promote your religion? it is a futile effort friend. we won't listen to you. it is better if you make your call more wide spread than just being restricted to this little forum of ours!
Indeed, we are so unworthy of such an exalted message.

gnat

Last edited by gnat; 10-15-2016 at 04:59 AM.
 
Old 10-15-2016, 07:45 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
Indeed, we are so unworthy of such an exalted message.

gnat
Thank you for be frank
 
Old 10-15-2016, 08:11 AM   #26
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I agree with gnat
 
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