Bahai Forums

Go Back   Baha'i Forums > Baha'i Forums > Baha'i Social Practices

Baha'i Social Practices Baha'i Social Practices - Laws, Marriage, Work, Places of Worship


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-16-2018, 05:55 PM   #1
Junior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2018
From: Miami
Posts: 4
I don’t know what to do.

I believe in Baha’u’llah. I know he was of God. However, I’m having some issues. Before I became Baha’i, I had plans to move in with my boyfriend. Then I became Baha’i. Nobody told me about the cohabitation “rule”. We already signed leases and everything to live together in Fall 2018. We have been together for 3 years and are in college. In my life, and American society, it is very socially acceptable (even very responsible!) to move in with someone before marriage. It is too late to change things, and in fact, I don’t want to. He is my best friend and I’ve been receiving medical treatments and he is the only person within 4 hours who i trust to help take care of me, and to live with whenever I feel better. I BELIEVE in Baha’u’llah. I study the writings almost everyday.

I’m having other issues too. I don’t drink alcohol or do drugs, but I don’t see the harm in nudity. In photography and art it is so beautiful. I don’t find it sexual. In other countries many women don’t wear tops to the beach.

I know that God is a loving and forgiving God. He is a caring God and he understands what we are all going through AND our true intentions. My boyfriend and I have been praying to him for guidance on what to do.

I love the Baha’i faith, the stimulating conversations, the firesides, Baha’u’llahs Revelations, just everything. But if I am going to break these “laws”, am I going to have to un-declare? That will make me so sad, especially since only God knows how innocent my intentions are, whereas many people think everything revolves around resisting sex (very immature because it doesn’t.)


Please help? I don’t want to be forced to undeclare but if I have to go against my cultural and societal beliefs I will, and I will love and worship the words of Baha’u’llah and Abdul Baha independently.



Much love

Last edited by allyb; 02-16-2018 at 06:16 PM.
 
Join Baha'i Forums


Welcome to Baha'i Forums, an open Baha'i Faith community! We welcome everyone and the community is free to join so register today and become part of the Baha'i Forums family!


Old 02-16-2018, 09:29 PM   #2
Member
 
Joined: Feb 2018
From: Arizona-but earth is one homeland ;)
Posts: 37
In my estimation Baha'i marriage is as simple as possible for a reason, it is not the ceremony but the dedicated faithfulness to each other ... The only reason to even have two witnesses is for the sake of trustworthy appearances and continuity with the broader community.

All forms of physical desires are prescribed to be within healthy limits because excesses deprive the spiritual experience until one reaches the stage when one is free from tests, but one should not become an ascetic to deprive oneself of that which is in truth wholesome.

Talk to your mate about your concerns and study the writings (if you can do it lovingly together for understanding true marriage it is even better) to tease out the subtle realities and not just the outer forms.

"All things work together for good for those who love God."

As to nudity ... Art and medicine is fine, but sexual arousal is easy for many and it has caused much disease both physically and more so relationally ... Even doctors have been known to abuse private exam rooms especially when drugs or anesthesia are involved ... Be cautious not because of your own outlook, but rather there are wolves waiting to 'devour' even the innocent.

Last edited by EphemeralVapor; 02-17-2018 at 11:07 AM.
 
Old 02-16-2018, 11:31 PM   #3
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
tonyfish58's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: Normanton Far North Queensland
Posts: 4,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by allyb View Post
I believe in Baha’u’llah. I know he was of God. However, I’m having some issues. Before I became Baha’i, I had plans to move in with my boyfriend. Then I became Baha’i. Nobody told me about the cohabitation “rule”. We already signed leases and everything to live together in Fall 2018. We have been together for 3 years and are in college. In my life, and American society, it is very socially acceptable (even very responsible!) to move in with someone before marriage. It is too late to change things, and in fact, I don’t want to. He is my best friend and I’ve been receiving medical treatments and he is the only person within 4 hours who i trust to help take care of me, and to live with whenever I feel better. I BELIEVE in Baha’u’llah. I study the writings almost everyday.

I’m having other issues too. I don’t drink alcohol or do drugs, but I don’t see the harm in nudity. In photography and art it is so beautiful. I don’t find it sexual. In other countries many women don’t wear tops to the beach.

I know that God is a loving and forgiving God. He is a caring God and he understands what we are all going through AND our true intentions. My boyfriend and I have been praying to him for guidance on what to do.

I love the Baha’i faith, the stimulating conversations, the firesides, Baha’u’llahs Revelations, just everything. But if I am going to break these “laws”, am I going to have to un-declare? That will make me so sad, especially since only God knows how innocent my intentions are, whereas many people think everything revolves around resisting sex (very immature because it doesn’t.)

Please help? I don’t want to be forced to undeclare but if I have to go against my cultural and societal beliefs I will, and I will love and worship the words of Baha’u’llah and Abdul Baha independently.

Much love
This is your decision, we have all had to make these types of decisions and I wish you all the best in your choices, life and faith.

I talk from experience in this matter and all I can say is there is a great Wisdom in the Laws of God, they far surpass our immediate understanding. If we break them we will face the time when we have to confront the decision that we have made and it will be not be an easy decision.

Lights of Guidance has many passages to read - Lights of Guidance - Baha'i Engagement

This Link will be a challenge, but I find Susan has many good thoughts to offer. Sex Before Marriage | Susan Gammage: Bahai-inspired Author

This is another - https://bahai9.com/wiki/Cohabitation

All the best, Regards Tony
 
Old 02-17-2018, 06:43 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
becky's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2014
From: colorado/summer-Oklahoma/winter
Posts: 823
You will find the answer, because you trust your relationship with God. At all times keep your faith, it will direct your steps. Nobody but you can resolve these issues you raise. Your solutions have to work for you, your life, your values, your morals and your faith. Because you are seeking resolutions to your inner conflicts, I have faith that you will find your way.

Loving Baha'i regards,
Becky
 
Old 02-17-2018, 07:23 AM   #5
Minor Bloodsucker
 
gnat's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2014
From: Stockholm
Posts: 1,718
And then we have an immense problem: that many of those who are devoted Bahá'ís never marry at all, but stay single all their lives.

Having my little darling daughters, as a result of a far from perfect marriage, is the most important thing in my life.

gnat
 
Old 02-17-2018, 08:18 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2017
From: Birmingham
Posts: 247
Hi im not sure how important this is but i found this

"In The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 25 [p. 30], Shoghi Effendi states that the Faith "condemns the prostitution of art" and "the practices of nudism" and instead calls for the "exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations." However, the House of Justice does not know of any passages in the teachings prohibiting the delineation of the human body in works of art. It is the practice of nudism that the Guardian condemns in The Advent of Divine Justice, not nudity. There are many variables in the question of the portrayal of the nude form in art, including that of local mores and attitudes. The intention of the artist is a very important factor. Normally that is a matter left to the conscience and good taste of the individual artist unless the Spiritual Assembly decides that the Cause is actually being harmed in a particular case."

(25 February 1988 to a National Spiritual Assembly, no. 83)
 
Old 02-17-2018, 09:51 AM   #7
Junior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2018
From: Miami
Posts: 4
Furthermore,marriage is not in the cards for us at this time. However much we would love to get married now, his parents will likely take away his college funding if we get married before graduation. I’m sure God knows and sees the difficulty and struggle this is, however I do not feel like I am doing wrong living with him in a two bedroom apartment, given we knew about the chastity “law” but not the cohabitation law when signing the leases and doing the deposits.


Thank you for all of your kind responses.
 
Old 02-17-2018, 11:20 AM   #8
Member
 
Joined: Feb 2018
From: Arizona-but earth is one homeland ;)
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by allyb View Post
Furthermore,marriage is not in the cards for us at this time. However much we would love to get married now, his parents will likely take away his college funding if we get married before graduation. I’m sure God knows and sees the difficulty and struggle this is, however I do not feel like I am doing wrong living with him in a two bedroom apartment, given we knew about the chastity “law” but not the cohabitation law when signing the leases and doing the deposits.


Thank you for all of your kind responses.
Should you agree that you would marry each other then perhaps a Baha'i ceremony to honor the faith now and then a civil ceremony to honor the parents upon completion of college may be accepted by the parents?
 
Old 02-17-2018, 11:31 AM   #9
Minor Bloodsucker
 
gnat's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2014
From: Stockholm
Posts: 1,718
Hmmm... I'm thinking. I guess I'll think for a while.

gnat
 
Old 02-18-2018, 06:07 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
Pete in Panama's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
From: Panama
Posts: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by allyb View Post
...marriage is not in the cards for us...
fwiw most jurisdictions in the U.S. consider couples who live together for years as actually being married. It's my understanding that most married Baha'i couples in the Panama Baha'i community have never had an official government marriage ceremony. I'd bet that that's the case world wide but I'd prefer to bet w/ someone else's money and not my own.

If this is not some kind of open controversy between you and some official Baha'i institution then you might want to demote the entire issue a lot lower on your list of things to worry about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EphemeralVapor View Post
...may be accepted by the parents?
What I got was that the parents were fine w/ the present living arrangements but that only if the couple got married would the parents retaliate by depriving the son of a chance to finish college.

imho that does not seem right...
 
Old 02-18-2018, 08:23 AM   #11
Junior Member
 
Joined: May 2017
From: Earth
Posts: 26
I think the cohabitation principle only applies when 2 people of the opposite gender live together alone. That is, throwing in an extra person or another couple will result in it not being considered cohabiting?

Tbh my present perspective is that cohabitation can be a beneficial step before marriage, as one can come to an understanding of the other person's character that cannot be gained from just going out or even serving together. I understand that's not exactly in line with the Baha'i view, but I've seen a few marriages breakdown in the community when the couple realized they don't work together, and I couldn't help but thinking if they had lived together for even like 6 months prior to marrying they would have realized earlier. But idk.

I think a 2 bedroom apartment could work, or perhaps even sharing a larger residence with another couple.

Also, given the medical situation you mentioned, maybe that would exempt the usual response to cohabitation?

As far as nudity, as Yousefy2 pointed out the House of Justice has stated that works of art containing nudity can be acceptable, its more when its just gratuitous nudity, which probably does include toplessness.
 
Old 02-18-2018, 09:57 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Pete in Panama's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
From: Panama
Posts: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by divan9 View Post
...gratuitous nudity, which probably does include toplessness...
Maybe not, there are some cultures where topless men & women are the norm (one indigenous society here in Panama comes to mind) and there are other cultures where exposing any hair on women's heads is considered unexceptionable.

imho the sanctity of the family unit is of critical importance but clothing styles (or lack thereof) is not.
 
Old 02-18-2018, 02:14 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jul 2017
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Posts: 210
From the Book of Laws which is the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith:

“The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 223

'The Bahá'í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá'ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'

"In response to another letter enquiring if there were any legitimate way in which a person could express the sex instinct if, for some reason, he were unable to marry or if outer circumstances such as economic factors were to cause him to delay marriage, the Guardian's secretary wrote on his behalf:

'Concerning your question whether there are any legitimate forms of expression of the sex instinct outside of marriage: According to the Bahá'í Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons. Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse. The Bahá'í youth should, on the one hand, be taught the lesson of self-control which, when exercised, undoubtedly has a salutary effect on the development of character and of personality in general, and on the other should be advised, nay even encouraged, to contract marriage while still young and in full possession of their physical vigour. Economic factors, no doubt, are often a serious hindrance to early marriage but in most cases are only an excuse, and as such should not be over stressed.'

"In another letter on the Guardian's behalf, also to an individual believer, the secretary writes:

'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex...'

"This indicates how the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society.
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File, pp. 364-365

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Say: Commit not, O people, that which will bring shame upon you or dishonor the Cause of God in the eyes of men, and be not of the mischief-makers. Approach not the things which your minds condemn. Eschew all manner of wickedness, for such things are forbidden unto you in the Book which none touch except such as God hath cleansed from every taint of guilt, and numbered among the purified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 277-278

“My captivity can bring on Me no shame. Nay, by My life, it conferreth on Me glory. That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me, yet in fact follow the Evil One. They, indeed, are of the lost.

When the time set for this Revelation was fulfilled, and He Who is the Day Star of the world appeared in ‘Iráq, He bade His followers observe that which would sanctify them from all earthly defilements. Some preferred to follow the desires of a corrupt inclination, while others walked in the way of righteousness and truth, and were rightly guided.

Say: He is not to be numbered with the people of Bahá who followeth his mundane desires, or fixeth his heart on things of the earth. He is My true follower who, if he come to a valley of pure gold, will pass straight through it aloof as a cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is, assuredly, of Me. From his garment the Concourse on high can inhale the fragrance of sanctity…. And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one, indeed, is the creation of spotless chastity. Thus instructeth you the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bountiful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 117-118

“I sorrow not for the burden of My imprisonment. Neither do I grieve over My abasement, or the tribulation I suffer at the hands of Mine enemies. By My life! They are My glory, a glory wherewith God hath adorned His own Self. Would that ye know it!

The shame I was made to bear hath uncovered the glory with which the whole of creation had been invested, and through the cruelties I have endured, the Day Star of Justice hath manifested itself, and shed its splendor upon men.

My sorrows are for those who have involved themselves in their corrupt passions, and claim to be associated with the Faith of God, the Gracious, the All-Praised.

It behoveth the people of Bahá to die to the world and all that is therein, to be so detached from all earthly things that the inmates of Paradise may inhale from their garment the sweet smelling savor of sanctity, that all the peoples of the earth may recognize in their faces the brightness of the All-Merciful, and that through them may be spread abroad the signs and tokens of God, the Almighty, the All-Wise. They that have tarnished the fair name of the Cause of God, by following the things of the flesh—these are in palpable error!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 100-101
 
Old 02-19-2018, 05:59 AM   #14
Senior Member
 
Walrus's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2014
From: Wisconsin
Posts: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by allyb View Post
I believe in Baha’u’llah. I know he was of God. However, I’m having some issues. Before I became Baha’i, I had plans to move in with my boyfriend. Then I became Baha’i. Nobody told me about the cohabitation “rule”.
Ich.

It really kinda disgusts me that so many people, even Baha'is on this forum, are of the cultural mindset that automatically assumes living together means sex before marriage.

Anyways, according to the UHJ itself, you are in the clear Allyb!!:

"With respect to Baha'is living in the same residence with a person of the opposite sex, such an arrangement would by no means be automatically considered unacceptable. It is not uncommon, for example, for a person to let out bed-sitting rooms in his or her house to students, vacationers, or others. Similarly, a man or woman may employ a housekeeper or servant of the other sex. What is considered proper in such arrangements varies from country to country. The laws and principles of our Faith, on the other hand, are meant to apply across all cultures, and what Baha'is would consider immoral is people who are not married living together as husband and wife, and indulging in sexual relations."

In full: Living together is 100% fine/permitted/halal in the Baha'i Faith so long as you are not living together "as husband and wife", IE, "indulging in sexual relations."

But living in the same building, is not inherently sexual, nor should any sane human being assume it is so. And I do find it greatly disturbing the amount of people who seem sexualize housing. :I It's gross, guys. Cut it out.

All the links people have posted to sex before marriage are completely inappropriate towards the topic at hand. :I Cohabitation itself is not banned, marital relations before marriage is what is banned. There is no reason to assume by Allyb's posts that she is sexually active in any way, and such speculation is inappropriate.

Allyb, you're in the clear. The UHJ states it is permitted. Don't fret. And if anyone further spreads the misinformation that your living arrangement is forbidden, point them to the wisdom and guidance offered by the UHJ, which explicitly states the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allyb View Post
I’m having other issues too. I don’t drink alcohol or do drugs, but I don’t see the harm in nudity. In photography and art it is so beautiful. I don’t find it sexual. In other countries many women don’t wear tops to the beach.
Yeah... more about the theme of people sexualizing things that shouldn't be sexualized. There's a reason that Baha'u'llah told us to make our eyes chaste. In an age when people view the act of living under the same roof as inherently sexual, we are in some dire need of viewing the world with more chaste eyes.

Last edited by Walrus; 02-19-2018 at 06:02 AM.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 07:40 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jul 2017
From: Kettering, Ohio USA
Posts: 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Ich.

It really kinda disgusts me that so many people, even Baha'is on this forum, are of the cultural mindset that automatically assumes living together means sex before marriage.

Anyways, according to the UHJ itself, you are in the clear Allyb!!:

"With respect to Baha'is living in the same residence with a person of the opposite sex, such an arrangement would by no means be automatically considered unacceptable. It is not uncommon, for example, for a person to let out bed-sitting rooms in his or her house to students, vacationers, or others. Similarly, a man or woman may employ a housekeeper or servant of the other sex. What is considered proper in such arrangements varies from country to country. The laws and principles of our Faith, on the other hand, are meant to apply across all cultures, and what Baha'is would consider immoral is people who are not married living together as husband and wife, and indulging in sexual relations."
I
In full: Living together is 100% fine/permitted/halal in the Baha'i Faith so long as you are not living together "as husband and wife", IE, "indulging in sexual relations."

But living in the same building, is not inherently sexual, nor should any sane human being assume it is so. And I do find it greatly disturbing the amount of people who seem sexualize housing. :I It's gross, guys. Cut it out.

All the links people have posted to sex before marriage are completely inappropriate towards the topic at hand. :I Cohabitation itself is not banned, marital relations before marriage is what is banned. There is no reason to assume by Allyb's posts that she is sexually active in any way, and such speculation is inappropriate.

Allyb, you're in the clear. The UHJ states it is permitted. Don't fret. And if anyone further spreads the misinformation that your living arrangement is forbidden, point them to the wisdom and guidance offered by the UHJ, which explicitly states the opposite.



Yeah... more about the theme of people sexualizing things that shouldn't be sexualized. There's a reason that Baha'u'llah told us to make our eyes chaste. In an age when people view the act of living under the same roof as inherently sexual, we are in some dire need of viewing the world with more chaste eyes.
It may be different for those that intend eventually to marry each other and have a sexual attraction for each other. The examples the UHJ gives is not that.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 11:59 AM   #16
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
tonyfish58's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: Normanton Far North Queensland
Posts: 4,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
It may be different for those that intend eventually to marry each other and have a sexual attraction for each other. The examples the UHJ gives is not that.
I would agree and as said, all guidance was posted, but in the end it is Allyb who has to make a decision.

We can only say there is a power in Gods laws, that when we obey, gives us a greater wisdom.

The best Idea is consultation with the LSA if there is one, go through and use the given administrative channels, this will build our Unity.

Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 02-19-2018 at 12:01 PM.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 02:23 PM   #17
Minor Bloodsucker
 
gnat's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2014
From: Stockholm
Posts: 1,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
The best Idea is consultation with the LSA if there is one, go through and use the given administrative channels, this will build our Unity.

Regards Tony
I think that's a very good advice. The other thing I was thinking of, is the paradox of someone who believes in Bahá'u'lláh, but considers leaving the Faith because it's tough to follow one of the laws. There wouldn't be many of us left, if we all had acted like that.

Best

from

gnat
 
Old 02-22-2018, 11:19 AM   #18
Junior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2018
From: Miami
Posts: 4
Unhappy Wow

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat View Post
I think that's a very good advice. The other thing I was thinking of, is the paradox of someone who believes in Bahá'u'lláh, but considers leaving the Faith because it's tough to follow one of the laws. There wouldn't be many of us left, if we all had acted like that.

Best

from

gnat


Well gnat, that was very rude. Considering I am 19 years old and DID NOT grow up Bahá’í, or any religion for that matter. We already signed the leases before anyone informed us of this “law”. . Are Baha’is not supposed to be loving and supportive of fellow people who are on their own spiritual journey?
 
Old 02-22-2018, 11:29 AM   #19
Junior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2018
From: Miami
Posts: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by allyb View Post
Well gnat, that was very rude. Considering I am 19 years old and DID NOT grow up Bahá’í, or any religion for that matter. We already signed the leases before anyone informed us of this “law”. . Are Baha’is not supposed to be loving and supportive of fellow people who are on their own spiritual journey?



And it’s not “tough” to follow this law. It would be life changing. My boyfriends family isn’t from America and they don’t want him “settling down” until his late thirties. They don’t mind cohabitation because it’s not commitment to a legal marriage. The moment he legally got married, they would cut all of his college funding. Then we are left tens of thousands of dollars in debt, as if it’s not a struggle already. I don’t think God would say it isn’t okay to live in two separate bedrooms if it preventd years of hardship and a broken relationship with his family. Compassion....
 
Old 02-22-2018, 12:10 PM   #20
Member
 
Joined: Feb 2018
From: Arizona-but earth is one homeland ;)
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by allyb View Post
And it’s not “tough” to follow this law. It would be life changing. My boyfriends family isn’t from America and they don’t want him “settling down” until his late thirties. They don’t mind cohabitation because it’s not commitment to a legal marriage. The moment he legally got married, they would cut all of his college funding. Then we are left tens of thousands of dollars in debt, as if it’s not a struggle already. I don’t think God would say it isn’t okay to live in two separate bedrooms if it preventd years of hardship and a broken relationship with his family. Compassion....
Gnat did not mean to appear rude...

Again, if you and your partner want to marry, consider talking about a simple Baha'i ceremony now followed by a civil one after graduation with your partner and his parents if you have not done so.

It is very hard to finish a college degree with children, so the impulse of your partner's parents to ensure securing that education is not entirely wrong headed.

If they were Baha'i they would be encouraged to allow early marriage and support either financially and\or with child support if they were able until your educations and finances were secure ... If the parents were unable to do that those support responsibilities should fall on the institutions of the faith if no other family, ngo or government program or individual came forward to aid, but the faith itself is not yet financially developed for various reasons of its immaturity... It would depend largely on the local conditions of the LSA if there is one and so on.

If talking to the parents leads to an impasse, then a trusted third party advisor would be preferable. If that is not possible, say the parents trust or respect no one that you two do as well, then inform the local LSA of your situation. Should that not be possible, e.g. no LSA, then do what you and your partner feel is right and leave the rest in the hands of God... God is certainly the most understanding and patient ... Be not concerned if you try to convince the parents in all the gentlest ways and do not succeed, God does not ask for undue hardship and is understanding of difficulty.
 
Old 02-22-2018, 12:27 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
Walrus's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2014
From: Wisconsin
Posts: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
It may be different for those that intend eventually to marry each other and have a sexual attraction for each other. The examples the UHJ gives is not that.
It is not.

The UHJ gives the clear standard for when living together crosses the line: "what Baha'is would consider immoral is people who are not married living together as husband and wife, and indulging in sexual relations."

Anything that does not cross that line, clearly and plainly established by the Universal House of Justice, permitted, full stop.

Just because a situation does not perfectly match the handful of examples the UHJ gives of permitted living arrangements doesn't mean it isn't permitted.

The UHJ is clear on what, precisely and exactly, is the thing that makes a living situation improper. To draw the line anywhere else when such clear guidance has been given by our holy institutions seems presumptuous to me.

It is a simple standard, unquestionably clear, and sound advice: "what Baha'is would consider immoral is people who are not married living together as husband and wife, and indulging in sexual relations."
 
Old 02-22-2018, 02:00 PM   #22
Member
 
Joined: Feb 2018
From: Arizona-but earth is one homeland ;)
Posts: 37
@Walrus although you make a sound argument, I would not go so far as to say that 2 people that have some physical attraction toward each should not be somewhat discouraged from abiding in the same house so they might not be tempted.

To me it is -less- an issue if the plan is to marry because some have physical attraction to each with no interest in marriage... If one wants marriage and the other doesn't, that can be toughest of all.

But ... People have to be allowed to make their own decisions, even if it is sometimes a mistake.

To be clear - in Ally's case I'm not worried.
 
Old 02-22-2018, 05:31 PM   #23
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
tonyfish58's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: Normanton Far North Queensland
Posts: 4,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by EphemeralVapor View Post
@Walrus although you make a sound argument, I would not go so far as to say that 2 people that have some physical attraction toward each should not be somewhat discouraged from abiding in the same house so they might not be tempted.

To me it is -less- an issue if the plan is to marry because some have physical attraction to each with no interest in marriage... If one wants marriage and the other doesn't, that can be toughest of all.

But ... People have to be allowed to make their own decisions, even if it is sometimes a mistake.

To be clear - in Ally's case I'm not worried.
I think this is where we need to use consultation and our administrative system, build the New World Order by using it.

Other wise you get a page of differing opinions that can give no firm answer.

Regards Tony
 
Old 02-22-2018, 06:01 PM   #24
Member
 
Joined: Feb 2018
From: Arizona-but earth is one homeland ;)
Posts: 37
@Tony yes, I've agreed with that above in my way, so no argument. No worries
 
Old 02-23-2018, 10:13 AM   #25
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jul 2017
From: Kettering, Ohio USA
Posts: 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
It is not.

The UHJ gives the clear standard for when living together crosses the line: "what Baha'is would consider immoral is people who are not married living together as husband and wife, and indulging in sexual relations."

Anything that does not cross that line, clearly and plainly established by the Universal House of Justice, permitted, full stop.

Just because a situation does not perfectly match the handful of examples the UHJ gives of permitted living arrangements doesn't mean it isn't permitted.

The UHJ is clear on what, precisely and exactly, is the thing that makes a living situation improper. To draw the line anywhere else when such clear guidance has been given by our holy institutions seems presumptuous to me.

It is a simple standard, unquestionably clear, and sound advice: "what Baha'is would consider immoral is people who are not married living together as husband and wife, and indulging in sexual relations."
It doesn't matter what we think. They must go their LSA and have it passed up the NSA or the UHJ and then it will be decided.
 
Old 02-23-2018, 07:33 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jul 2017
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Posts: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Ich.

It really kinda disgusts me that so many people, even Baha'is on this forum, are of the cultural mindset that automatically assumes living together means sex before marriage.

Anyways, according to the UHJ itself, you are in the clear Allyb!!:

"With respect to Baha'is living in the same residence with a person of the opposite sex, such an arrangement would by no means be automatically considered unacceptable. It is not uncommon, for example, for a person to let out bed-sitting rooms in his or her house to students, vacationers, or others. Similarly, a man or woman may employ a housekeeper or servant of the other sex. What is considered proper in such arrangements varies from country to country. The laws and principles of our Faith, on the other hand, are meant to apply across all cultures, and what Baha'is would consider immoral is people who are not married living together as husband and wife, and indulging in sexual relations."

In full: Living together is 100% fine/permitted/halal in the Baha'i Faith so long as you are not living together "as husband and wife", IE, "indulging in sexual relations."

But living in the same building, is not inherently sexual, nor should any sane human being assume it is so. And I do find it greatly disturbing the amount of people who seem sexualize housing. :I It's gross, guys. Cut it out.

All the links people have posted to sex before marriage are completely inappropriate towards the topic at hand. :I Cohabitation itself is not banned, marital relations before marriage is what is banned. There is no reason to assume by Allyb's posts that she is sexually active in any way, and such speculation is inappropriate.

Allyb, you're in the clear. The UHJ states it is permitted. Don't fret. And if anyone further spreads the misinformation that your living arrangement is forbidden, point them to the wisdom and guidance offered by the UHJ, which explicitly states the opposite.

Yeah... more about the theme of people sexualizing things that shouldn't be sexualized. There's a reason that Baha'u'llah told us to make our eyes chaste. In an age when people view the act of living under the same roof as inherently sexual, we are in some dire need of viewing the world with more chaste eyes.
I have to admit, I have never heard of such a thing. I have always been told that a man and a woman cannot live together unless they are legally married.

I am not disputing what you said, but what kind of an impression are the Baha'is making if couples live together out of wedlock? Letting out a room to a boarder is not the same thing as sharing an apartment. I do not think that Baha'u'llah would be impressed.

Okay then, is it okay for homosexuals to live together as long as they do not have sexual relations? Who the heck is going to believe that they are not having sexual relations, whether they are heterosexuals or homosexuals? Moreover, how many couples in love are going to actually refrain from sex or even kissing (as it says we are to do in the Writings) for a number of years?
 
Reply

  Baha'i Forums > Baha'i Forums > Baha'i Social Practices

Tags
don’t



Thread Tools
Display Modes



Facebook @bahaiforums RSS


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2006 - 2018 Bahai Forums. All rights reserved.