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Old 11-13-2013, 05:01 AM   #1
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Raise aloft the Banner of Atheism and Anti-Theism!

Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.

Say: So great is the glory of the Cause of God that even the blind can perceive it, how much more they whose sight is sharp, whose vision is pure. The blind, though unable to perceive the light of the sun, are, nevertheless, capable of experiencing its continual heat. The blind in heart, however, among the people of the Bayán—and to this God is My witness—are impotent, no matter how long the Sun may shine upon them, either to perceive the radiance of its glory, or to appreciate the warmth of its rays.

Say: O people of the Bayán! We have chosen you out of the world to know and recognize Our Self. We have caused you to draw nigh unto the right side of Paradise—the Spot out of which the undying Fire crieth in manifold accents: “There is none other God besides Me, the All-Powerful, the Most High!” Take heed lest ye allow yourselves to be shut out as by a veil from this Day Star that shineth above the dayspring of the Will of your Lord, the All-Merciful, and whose light hath encompassed both the small and the great. Purge your sight, that ye may perceive its glory with your own eyes, and depend not on the sight of any one except your self, for God hath never burdened any soul beyond its power. Thus hath it been sent down unto the Prophets and Messengers of old, and been recorded in all the Scriptures.

Strive, O people, to gain admittance into this vast Immensity for which God ordained neither beginning nor end, in which His voice hath been raised, and over which have been wafted the sweet savors of holiness and glory. Divest not yourselves of the Robe of grandeur, neither suffer your hearts to be deprived of remembering your Lord, nor your ears of hearkening unto the sweet melodies of His wondrous, His sublime, His all-compelling, His clear, and most eloquent voice.


Baha'u'llah as quoted and translated by the Guardian



The Cycle of Prophecy, Prophethood and Messengership and Avatarhood and Sonship has ended! This is the Cycle of the Eternal Essence and Truth

Last edited by differenceisgood; 11-13-2013 at 05:18 AM.
 
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Old 11-13-2013, 06:29 AM   #2
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All of which makes the subject-line of this thread all the more bizarre! . . .
 
Old 11-13-2013, 08:39 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceDLimber View Post
All of which makes the subject-line of this thread all the more bizarre! . . .
Very Bizarre

Regards Tony
 
Old 11-13-2013, 09:14 PM   #4
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Very Bizarre

Regards Tony
As Bizarre as an astronomer working day shift
 
Old 11-14-2013, 05:44 AM   #5
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There is no need to look for stars when The Sun has risen and reached its Apex At Noon.

Tear down your conceptions of Deity and bathe in the light of the Sun Itself
 
Old 11-14-2013, 09:01 AM   #6
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I don't see anything bizarre in what I wrote.

I note "His Own Self" and "Our Self" in the passage.

"He" has been replaced with "I" in this Revelation.
 
Old 11-14-2013, 12:27 PM   #7
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The GREAT Catastrophe has come:

"Say, that Word is now made manifest and ye have fled ere ye heard it uttered, although ye perceive it not. And that blessed, that hidden, that concealed and treasured Word is this: '"HE" hath now appeared in the raiment of "I". He Who was hidden from mortal eyes exclaimeth: Lo! I am the All-Manifest.' This is the Word which hath caused the limbs of disbelievers to quake. " - Tablet of Baha'u'llah after the Kitab-i-Aqdas


The Father is Come, He who Sent all Manifestations

Last edited by differenceisgood; 11-14-2013 at 12:35 PM.
 
Old 11-14-2013, 12:36 PM   #8
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In the Most Holy Book, Baha'u'llah states that the Manifestation's claim to Divinity is "assigned exclusively to this sublime, this unique and wondrous Revelation." (The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 72, Paragraph 143)
 
Old 11-14-2013, 05:12 PM   #9
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Differenceisgood, I liked your quotations but I think I would interpret them a bit differently to how you seem to infer that you do.

Firstly, I think it is important to remember that one person can use "he" to refer to a number of different individuals. In the first passage quoted it seems clear that Bahá'ú'lláh is referring to God.

In the quotation that incudes

"Say, that Word is now made manifest and ye have fled ere ye heard it uttered, although ye perceive it not. And that blessed, that hidden, that concealed and treasured Word is this: '"HE" hath now appeared in the raiment of "I". He Who was hidden from mortal eyes exclaimeth: Lo! I am the All-Manifest.' This is the Word which hath caused the limbs of disbelievers to quake. "

I read that Bahá'u'lláh is basically referring to the fact that people were waiting for the promised one - as in "He" will come. Bahá'u'lláh points out that He is that promised one " '"HE" hath now appeared in the raiment of "I". "

Of course this is about God and by the very nature of their beliefs, an atheist is not going to find this at all compelling! I tried, so hard, when I was a teenager to be an atheist but I could not shake off my belief in God. I have a lot of atheist family and friends and I have very much enjoyed reading pieces by Bertrand Russell and Richard Dawkins but when I look at their arguments I conclude that their atheism is as much as a belief when it comes down to it as my belief in God.
 
Old 11-14-2013, 11:51 PM   #10
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I disagree. Atheism is agnosticism and not a belief.

I also disagree. This is very convincing to the ones who lacks belief in theism.

Last edited by differenceisgood; 11-15-2013 at 03:53 AM.
 
Old 11-15-2013, 04:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by differenceisgood View Post
Atheism is agnosticism and not a belief.
Only if you choose to use non-standard meanings.

And while you're perfectly free to do this if you so choose, in this case don't expect others to understand what you're talking about.

Peace,

Bruce
 
Old 11-15-2013, 10:35 AM   #12
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I understand the connections the OP is trying to make: "Atheism" in the sense that former "theisms" are false compared to the full revelation Bahá'u'lláh makes. However, this is a rather liberal use of "Atheism," and I think it would me more pragmatic and appropriate simply to describe our revelation as "different" and not "atheistic by comparison."

We Bahá'ís are "theists" in a technical sense. To those not educated in the proper terminology, you bend the lines and make us look somewhat manipulative, shifting between "theism" and "atheism" when it suits our purpose. I believe an incident like this occurred on YouTube a few years back. Calling ourselves "Atheists" because we reject former theistic conceptions of Deity is counterproductive semantics.

To the Post about the 'He' being "I": There is an "I" in Bahá'u'lláh's revelation. Part of His interpretation of the Qur'án is that Muslims would be unable to understand and accept Bahá'u'lláh because they would be put off and made uneasy by the sheer power of Bahá'u'lláh to proclaim 'I am God" instead of "He is God."

Of course, this "I" equally applies to all Manifestations. But Bahá'u'lláh is the one to proclaim it most directly and with the most potency.
 
Old 11-15-2013, 12:38 PM   #13
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To the Post about the 'He' being "I": There is an "I" in Bahá'u'lláh's revelation. Part of His interpretation of the Qur'án is that Muslims would be unable to understand and accept Bahá'u'lláh because they would be put off and made uneasy by the sheer power of Bahá'u'lláh to proclaim 'I am God" instead of "He is God."

Of course, this "I" equally applies to all Manifestations. But Bahá'u'lláh is the one to proclaim it most directly and with the most potency.
Good morning Owings

What you say here make very good sense to this one. From memory (often faulty), the Blessed Beauty makes reference to this in much the same way (or, better stated, you have encapsulated what the Ancient Beauty said) in, one thinks, the Kitab-i-Iqan. If not this volume, then another - will find it and post here later.

On a personal note, this one thinks / believes that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is so far-reaching, so extensive, so all-encompassing that it goes beyond any reference to 'thiesm's' or similar. For the sake of convenience we may, in discussion use these terms when trying to provide a clearer light to a questioner, but even then at the risk of placing a shaded view of the matter.

With warmest greetings

Romane
 
Old 11-15-2013, 01:03 PM   #14
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Have found close to what my memory thought.

Quote:
In the past the divines were perplexed over this question, a question which He Who is the Sovereign Truth hath, during the early years of His life, Himself heard them ask repeatedly: 'What is that Word which the Qá'im will pronounce whereby the leaders of religion are put to flight?' Say, that Word is now made manifest and ye have fled ere ye heard it uttered, although ye perceive it not. And that blessed, that hidden, that concealed and treasured Word is this: '"HE" hath now appeared in the raiment of "I".
(Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 258)

Even as He hath said: "There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and them; except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee." This is the significance of the tradition: "I am He, Himself, and He is I, myself."
(The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 99)

This is the station that hath been alluded to in the tradition: "I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is."
(Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 30)

He Who heralded this Revelation hath declared: 'He shall proclaim under all conditions: "Verily, verily, I am God, no God is there but Me, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting."'
(Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 42)
With warm greetings

Romane
 
Old 11-15-2013, 02:19 PM   #15
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Have found close to what my memory thought...

Even as He hath said: "There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and them; except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee." This is the significance of the tradition: "I am He, Himself, and He is I, myself."
(The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 99)

...With warm greetings

Romane
Thanks for sharing these Romane,

To me this reads very much like an exposition of the station of the Manifestations of God as "the Word". The history of this concept in religious thought can be traced back through a number of earlier revelations.

I am particularly fond of this passage, so I must ask forgiveness for a lengthy quotation here, although I do feel it is justified for context;

'To every discerning and illumined heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. “No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving.” 1 No tie of direct intercourse can possibly bind Him to His creatures. He standeth exalted beyond and above all separation and union, all proximity and remoteness. No sign can indicate His presence or His absence; inasmuch as by a word of His command all that are in heaven and on earth have come to exist, and by His wish, which is the Primal Will itself, all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being, the world of the visible.

Gracious God! How could there be conceived any existing relationship or possible connection between His Word and they that are created of it? The verse: “God would have you beware of Himself” 2 unmistakably beareth witness to the reality of Our argument, and the words: “God was alone; there was none else besides Him” are a sure testimony of its truth. All the Prophets of God and their chosen Ones, all the divines, the sages, and the wise of every generation, unanimously recognize their inability to attain unto the comprehension of that Quintessence of all truth, and confess their incapacity to grasp Him, Who is the inmost Reality of all things.

The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying: “His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all” hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence. These sanctified Mirrors, these Day-springs of ancient glory are one and all the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the light that can never fade. Even as He hath said: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and them; except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee.” This is the significance of the tradition: “I am He, Himself, and He is I, myself.”'

~Baha'u'llah
 
Old 11-15-2013, 03:09 PM   #16
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Thank you dear friends, this thread has become a mine of hidden gems, within these quotes of the Ancient of Days, The Glory of God.

How can anyone not see the treasure hidden within these words?
How can anyone ask what has Baha'u'llah brought that is new from past messengers?

Within such a minute drop of his Revelation we learn so much more.

So wonderful to read dear friends, these wonderful posts.
 
Old 11-15-2013, 07:26 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Thank you dear friends, this thread has become a mine of hidden gems, within these quotes of the Ancient of Days, The Glory of God.

How can anyone not see the treasure hidden within these words?
How can anyone ask what has Baha'u'llah brought that is new from past messengers?

Within such a minute drop of his Revelation we learn so much more.

So wonderful to read dear friends, these wonderful posts.
That it has Bill! Regards Tony
 
Old 11-15-2013, 07:41 PM   #18
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To me this reads very much like an exposition of the station of the Manifestations of God as "the Word". The history of this concept in religious thought can be traced back through a number of earlier revelations.
Good morning danieldemol

I tend to agree, while still seeing it as one of those statement by Baha'u'llah regarding the 'He is I' theme regarding His Revelation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danieldemol View Post
I am particularly fond of this passage, so I must ask forgiveness for a lengthy quotation here, although I do feel it is justified for context;
A most beautiful quote, and so far as am concerned, no forgiveness needed. Thank you for posting it; it brought serenity to my heart.

With warm greetings

Romane
 
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