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Old 12-07-2015, 10:09 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Dear Paul,

When I get some time, God willing I will find them and quote them.
But what difference does it make really?

Suppose, the Bible says, when Jesus returns, He comes with a new name, which is the Name of God. Suppose the hadithes says, Baha is the greatest name of God. Suppose a hadith says, their given names are Muhammad and Hussein. Suppose Hadithes says, Christ Rules for 40 years, and Mahdi for 7 years. Suppose, Hadithes and Bible says, the Promised one is from Persia. Suppose Hadithes says, Akka the city in Palastine haas significant importence on the Day of Resurrection. Suppose the hadithes says the End of People of Muhammad comes in 1000 years. Suppose Bible refers to year 1260 as the time of the End.....so on and on and on.

Suppose all of this match with the Bab and Baha.
What difference does it make?
There is a Hadith that says, when Mahdi appeares, They say: it is plain sorcery!
You made a claim.....now back it up with evidence. That is all I ask. Thank you.
 
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Old 12-07-2015, 10:16 AM   #42
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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You made a claim.....now back it up with evidence. That is all I ask. Thank you.
One word for proof - Kitabi-iquan.

The key - God doeth as He Willeth

Then it is up to us or not.

God bless you Paul

Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 12-07-2015 at 10:40 AM.
 
Old 12-07-2015, 10:18 AM   #43
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Try reading post 28.......including your quoted question
oh thank you Paul. sorry i had not seen that before
you have not talked about those who will reject Qaim in that time. you have said that he will not be killed; OK even if not killed there are more than 50 Hadiths that say that some groups of people (and most of all Muslims) will not believe in Qaim, they will say that he is a liar and a fraud. now every knowledgeable Muslim knows about the signs of the day on which Qaim will come; sun will rise from west etc. the question is if those signs are to be fulfilled outwardly, then how can Muslims who know about the signs now, reject Qaim? it is just weird!
but if you think that this is not a helpful argument, I mean if it bothers you, I would not like to burden you. we can , each of us, stay happy with our believes and say that at the end of the day we have tried our best to be good people
 
Old 12-07-2015, 10:42 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
oh thank you Paul. sorry i had not seen that before
you have not talked about those who will reject Qaim in that time. you have said that he will not be killed; OK even if not killed there are more than 50 Hadiths that say that some groups of people (and most of all Muslims) will not believe in Qaim, they will say that he is a liar and a fraud. now every knowledgeable Muslim knows about the signs of the day on which Qaim will come; sun will rise from west etc. the question is if those signs are to be fulfilled outwardly, then how can Muslims who know about the signs now, reject Qaim? it is just weird!
but if you think that this is not a helpful argument, I mean if it bothers you, I would not like to burden you. we can , each of us, stay happy with our believes and say that at the end of the day we have tried our best to be good people
Where back at the cup of tea and biscuits with Paul

God bless you maryamr - Regards Tony
 
Old 12-07-2015, 11:11 AM   #45
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Where back at the cup of tea and biscuits with Paul

God bless you maryamr - Regards Tony
Nah.....coffee and biscuits. It's seedcake with tea
 
Old 12-07-2015, 11:25 AM   #46
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You made a claim.....now back it up with evidence. That is all I ask. Thank you.
You can find it in Iqbal-alamal (I think written in year 650), see page 54:

http://www.google.ca/url?q=http://uc...W2ikCHV3BsGcsQ

This link is the French Translation, with original Arabic Text.


You can also find it in another Book called Zad al-maad, by Muhammad baqir Majlisi. You can find english translation of that, online. Search for greatest name in google in Zad al-maad.

Good hunting.

http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.c...BBst/dawnP.htm

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 12-07-2015 at 11:37 AM.
 
Old 12-07-2015, 11:28 AM   #47
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Question

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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
oh thank you Paul. sorry i had not seen that before
you have not talked about those who will reject Qaim in that time. you have said that he will not be killed; OK even if not killed there are more than 50 Hadiths that say that some groups of people (and most of all Muslims) will not believe in Qaim, they will say that he is a liar and a fraud. now every knowledgeable Muslim knows about the signs of the day on which Qaim will come; sun will rise from west etc. the question is if those signs are to be fulfilled outwardly, then how can Muslims who know about the signs now, reject Qaim? it is just weird!
but if you think that this is not a helpful argument, I mean if it bothers you, I would not like to burden you. we can , each of us, stay happy with our believes and say that at the end of the day we have tried our best to be good people
Sorry, Maryam.

Your question deserves a fuller answer than I can give this evening. The cat - who is recovering nicely - is being very clinging......walking over my keyboard and driving me nuts.

God willing, I'll come back to this tomorrow. Just a thought: I think most Muslims (except, perhaps, Quranists) accept that the Qaim will come. What they might not accept, at least not without evidence, is the claim of any one individual to be the Qaim. After all, there have been false claimants!

Very best regards,

Paul
 
Old 12-07-2015, 12:33 PM   #48
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Hi Tony,

Thank you. I have this particular work.

‘Twelve hundred and eighty years have passed since the dawn of the Muhammadan Dispensation, and with every break of day, these blind and ignoble people have recited their Qur’án, and yet have failed to grasp one letter of that Book!’ (Part 2. Page 99).

I count myself privileged to be one of the ‘blind and ignoble people’ spoken of here. I’m in excellent company. It includes: Moulay Ali Ben Moussa Ben Rached El Alami; ʻAbd al-Salām ibn Mashīsh al-ʻAlamī; Idris al-Azhar ibn Idris (Idris II of Morocco); Idris ibn Abdullah (Idris I of Morocco); Abdullah al-Kamil; Hasan ibn `Ali ibn Abi Ṭalib; `Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib and Fâṭimah bint Muhammad; and, of course, Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim (the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam). They are grandparents of three of my grandchildren; and may Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) bless and reward each of them for the great, and noble, work they did on His behalf. And may He forgive all who slander or libel them.

Have a great day.

Paul
Your grandchildren are related to the Moroccan royal House Paul?
 
Old 12-07-2015, 01:34 PM   #49
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Your grandchildren are related to the Moroccan royal House Paul?
Hi Aidan.

Directly to Moulay Idris, the founder of the Kingdom; and through him........distantly..... to the current House.......not close enough for coffee and bickies at the palace!

Cheers,

Paul

Last edited by Niblo; 12-07-2015 at 01:42 PM.
 
Old 12-08-2015, 04:33 AM   #50
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Sorry, Maryam.

Your question deserves a fuller answer than I can give this evening. The cat - who is recovering nicely - is being very clinging......walking over my keyboard and driving me nuts.

God willing, I'll come back to this tomorrow. Just a thought: I think most Muslims (except, perhaps, Quranists) accept that the Qaim will come. What they might not accept, at least not without evidence, is the claim of any one individual to be the Qaim. After all, there have been false claimants!

Very best regards,

Paul

I love kittens and cats I am happy your cat is getting better soon
 
Old 12-08-2015, 04:45 AM   #51
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And I love the kitten talk in the middle of the loftiest exchanges. It's like a picture of life: all at the same time.

Best

from

gnat
 
Old 12-08-2015, 07:07 AM   #52
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I love kittens and cats I am happy your cat is getting better soon
Hi Maryam.

Many thanks. The cat is being picky over her food at the moment (having two broken jaws - one wired, one left to heal itself - is not helping). I’ll have to plug away, I guess, bless her.

I’ve been doing some work on your question concerning the refusal of Muslims to accept the Baha’i notion of the Qaim (you’ve not phrased the question in this manner, but we both know what you’re driving at!).

I think I need to stop here, and ask that we agree to differ on this matter. It’s not possible to answer your question fully without reference to the Baha’i faith itself, and to its leaders. Such reference can cause disquiet to others, and that’s not why I’m here (honestly ).

Have a great day, and very best regards,

Paul

Last edited by Niblo; 12-08-2015 at 07:09 AM.
 
Old 12-08-2015, 07:08 AM   #53
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And I love the kitten talk in the middle of the loftiest exchanges. It's like a picture of life: all at the same time.

Best

from

gnat
You're a big softy really.
 
Old 12-08-2015, 07:26 AM   #54
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You're a big softy really.
Well, I'd rather say that Bahá'u'lláh's words are too big for my mouth. It's a bit like the saying that "If Rockefeller writes a million-dollar check, it's serious business, if I do it, it's a joke". I much prefer words that are on my own level. Today, I taught the Faith to a Muslim. He doesn't know it yet. I saw him having very serious - very likely, totally unjustified - legal problems. I tried to help him to the best of my ability, knowing how difficult it can be to be a foreigner in this country. He told me that I was sent from God, using some expressions I recognize from the Muslim setting. I will tell him one day that our Faith tells us to help the downtrodden. That's teaching to me.

Best

from

gnat
 
Old 12-08-2015, 07:45 AM   #55
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Well, I'd rather say that Bahá'u'lláh's words are too big for my mouth. It's a bit like the saying that "If Rockefeller writes a million-dollar check, it's serious business, if I do it, it's a joke". I much prefer words that are on my own level. Today, I taught the Faith to a Muslim. He doesn't know it yet. I saw him having very serious - very likely, totally unjustified - legal problems. I tried to help him to the best of my ability, knowing how difficult it can be to be a foreigner in this country. He told me that I was sent from God, using some expressions I recognize from the Muslim setting. I will tell him one day that our Faith tells us to help the downtrodden. That's teaching to me.

Best

from

gnat
Al-ḥamdu lillāh!
 
Old 12-08-2015, 10:28 AM   #56
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Al-ḥamdu lillāh!
And maybe I was just full of self-love and did matters worse, and would have done better to quote some Bahá'í writings here? What do I know?

gnat
 
Old 12-08-2015, 10:39 AM   #57
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Hi Maryam.

Many thanks. The cat is being picky over her food at the moment (having two broken jaws - one wired, one left to heal itself - is not helping). I’ll have to plug away, I guess, bless her.

I’ve been doing some work on your question concerning the refusal of Muslims to accept the Baha’i notion of the Qaim (you’ve not phrased the question in this manner, but we both know what you’re driving at!).

I think I need to stop here, and ask that we agree to differ on this matter. It’s not possible to answer your question fully without reference to the Baha’i faith itself, and to its leaders. Such reference can cause disquiet to others, and that’s not why I’m here (honestly ).

Have a great day, and very best regards,

Paul
Yes disquiet is never good, I could see that would be an issue.

I would suggest It would be much Like a Christian would Have to look at and Appreciate who Muhummad was and why Gods Will unfolded as it did.

The Jew likewise for Christ, before the conversation could expand.

I would offer that What I like most of all is that the Bab and Baha'u'llah came at a time when the world needed the remedy they gave. They knew of the consequence man would face in the unfolding rejection of God and His way and the remedy given is perfect.

Pick a sickness of mankind the solution was foretold and the world as it totters on its own destination can only grasp part of the solution and thus falls back again and again.

Dear Paul you and I can have our tea, coffee and snacks and post a few comments here and there, but we will not stop what God has Willed, God the Unconstrained. As long as we do share what we each Love of God, then at least we will not add to the woes unfolding.

I like it thatbWe are only here as God allows us to be and all our hearts fully known.

Regards Tony
 
Old 12-08-2015, 10:49 AM   #58
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And maybe I was just full of self-love and did matters worse, and would have done better to quote some Bahá'í writings here? What do I know?

gnat
That we do not know

Lot of curve balls!

Regards Tony
 
Old 12-08-2015, 12:43 PM   #59
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Hi Maryam.

Many thanks. The cat is being picky over her food at the moment (having two broken jaws - one wired, one left to heal itself - is not helping). I’ll have to plug away, I guess, bless her.

I’ve been doing some work on your question concerning the refusal of Muslims to accept the Baha’i notion of the Qaim (you’ve not phrased the question in this manner, but we both know what you’re driving at!).

I think I need to stop here, and ask that we agree to differ on this matter. It’s not possible to answer your question fully without reference to the Baha’i faith itself, and to its leaders. Such reference can cause disquiet to others, and that’s not why I’m here (honestly ).

Have a great day, and very best regards,

Paul
Dear paul,

Actually when I read Maryam's post, I don't think, it is concerning the refusal of Muslims to accept Baha'I Faith.
My suggestion is, forget about Baha'I Faith, at least for the time being.
Let's assume, we live even before Baha'u'llah appeared.
Let's only read Quran verses regarding the Day of Resurrection and think about them for a while. What harm is there, in doing that?

You actually don't have to answer these questions here if you feel it is a difficult subject to deal with, but I suggest try answering to yourself:

If it is physical resurrection of the Dead and the Signs shall appear in a physical sense, why the Quran says, even after the Sun is darkend, the trumpet is blown, the earth quake happend, angels came, Deads had come out of their graves, Allah came and the earth has become bright with the light of God, yet the unbelievers are unaware and some are denying each other and some are cursing each other?


How could all these overwhelming events happen and still, the unbelievers be heedless? Just imagine, even the most stubborn unbeliever, after seeing all these, would be scared and frosen to death! How can they still be heedless after the inevitable has come to them?

So, If I take a while to ponder, personally have no choice, either to think the Quran is false and irrational, yet accept it or reject it or the other option is to say the Day of Resurrection have another interpretation than its outward appearance. That is the Mutishabihat verses and in its own time God would reveal it.
God likes us to use our common sense.
Another option is to ignore it and to not even think about the verses of Quran, which off course, that's not what the Author of Quran asks the Muslims to do.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 12-08-2015 at 12:52 PM.
 
Old 12-11-2015, 02:21 AM   #60
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Dear paul,

Actually when I read Maryam's post, I don't think, it is concerning the refusal of Muslims to accept Baha'I Faith.
My suggestion is, forget about Baha'I Faith, at least for the time being.
Let's assume, we live even before Baha'u'llah appeared.
Let's only read Quran verses regarding the Day of Resurrection and think about them for a while. What harm is there, in doing that?

You actually don't have to answer these questions here if you feel it is a difficult subject to deal with, but I suggest try answering to yourself:

If it is physical resurrection of the Dead and the Signs shall appear in a physical sense, why the Quran says, even after the Sun is darkend, the trumpet is blown, the earth quake happend, angels came, Deads had come out of their graves, Allah came and the earth has become bright with the light of God, yet the unbelievers are unaware and some are denying each other and some are cursing each other?


How could all these overwhelming events happen and still, the unbelievers be heedless? Just imagine, even the most stubborn unbeliever, after seeing all these, would be scared and frosen to death! How can they still be heedless after the inevitable has come to them?

So, If I take a while to ponder, personally have no choice, either to think the Quran is false and irrational, yet accept it or reject it or the other option is to say the Day of Resurrection have another interpretation than its outward appearance. That is the Mutishabihat verses and in its own time God would reveal it.
God likes us to use our common sense.
Another option is to ignore it and to not even think about the verses of Quran, which off course, that's not what the Author of Quran asks the Muslims to do.
Hello again.

Muhammad Abdel Haleem writes: ‘In the Qur’an, life in this world is an inseparable part of a continuum, a unified whole - life, death, life - which gives our life a context and relevance. In this context, the life of the individual is made meaningful and enriched inasmuch as it is full of “good works”. Life in this world leads to the afterlife, a belief which is fundamental in the Qur’an.’ (‘Understanding the Qur’an - Themes and Style’).

According to the Qur’an, belief in the physical resurrection of the body, and in the afterlife, was central to the mission of Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), and of all the Prophets before him. They must have done their work well, since this belief is an article of faith not only in Islam, but also in Christianity and Judaism.

The resurrection of the body is an essential Christian doctrine; as Paul declares: ‘If the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.’ (1 Cor. 15:13-18).

The Fourth Lateran Council declared that at the second coming: ‘Jesus will judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad.’ (Constitution 1 - Confession of Faith).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: ‘(At death) the human body decays. The soul goes to meet God while awaiting reunion with the body. God will definitely grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls. All will rise: "Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (Jn 5:29).’

Pope Clement 1 writes: ‘Let us consider, beloved, how the Master is continually proving to us that there will be a future resurrection, of which he has made the Lord Jesus Christ the firstling, by raising him from the dead. Let us look, beloved, at the resurrection which is taking place seasonally. Day and night make known the resurrection to us. The night sleeps, the day arises. Consider the plants that grow. How and in what manner does the sowing take place? The sower went forth and cast each of the seeds onto the ground; and they fall to the ground, parched and bare, where they decay. Then from their decay the greatness of the master’s providence raises them up, and from the one grain more grow and bring forth fruit.’ (Letter to the Corinthians).

The Apostles’ Creed states: ‘I believe in…………..the resurrection of the body. Amen.’

The Nicene Creed states: ‘We confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins; we look for a resurrection of the dead and life in the age to come. Amen.’

The Athanasian Creed states: ‘(Jesus Christ) sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From there he shall come to judge the living and the dead; at his coming all men have to rise again with their bodies and will render an account of their own deeds; and those who have done good will go into life everlasting, but those who have done evil, into eternal fire. This is the Catholic faith, unless everyone believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.’

Polycarp of Smyrna writes: ‘Whoever perverts the sayings of the Lord for his own desires, and says that there is neither resurrection nor judgment, such a one is the firstborn of Satan. Let us, therefore, leave the foolishness and the false-teaching of the crowd and turn back to the word which was delivered to us in the beginning.’ (Letter to the Philippians).

Justin Martyr writes: ‘The prophets have proclaimed his (Christ’s) two comings. One, indeed, which has already taken place, was that of a dishonored and suffering man. The second will take place when, in accord with prophecy, he shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality, but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire along with the evil demons.’ (First Apology). And again: ‘Indeed, God calls even the body to resurrection and promises it everlasting life. When he promises to save the man, he thereby makes his promise to the flesh. What is man but a rational living being composed of soul and body? Is the soul by itself a man? No, it is but the soul of a man. Can the body be called a man? No, it can but be called the body of a man. If, then, neither of these is by itself a man, but that which is composed of the two together is called a man, and if God has called man to life and resurrection, he has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and the body.’ (The Resurrection).

Theophilus of Antioch writes: ‘God will raise up your flesh immortal with your soul; and then, having become immortal, you shall see the immortal, if you will believe in him now; and then you will realise that you have spoken against him unjustly. But you do not believe that the dead will be raised. When it happens, then you will believe, whether you want to or not; but unless you believe now, your faith then will be reckoned as unbelief.’ (To Autolycus).

Tertullian writes: ‘In regard to that which is called the resurrection of the dead, it is necessary to defend the proper meaning of the terms ‘of the dead’ and ‘resurrection.’ The word ‘dead’ signifies merely that something has lost the soul, by the faculty of which it formerly lived. The term ‘dead’ then applies to a body. Moreover, if resurrection is of the dead, and ‘dead’ applies only to a body, the resurrection will be of a body. . . . ‘To rise’ may be said of that which never in any way fell, but which was always lying down. But ‘to rise again’ can only be said of that which has fallen; for by ‘rising again’ that which fell is said to ‘re-surrect.’ The syllable ‘re-’ always implies iteration (happening again). We say, therefore, that a body falls to the ground in death . . . and that which falls, rises again" (Against Marcion).

St Augustine writes: ‘Perish the thought that the omnipotence of the Creator is unable, for the raising of our bodies and for the restoring of them to life, to recall all (their) parts, which were consumed by beasts or by fire, or which disintegrated into dust or ashes, or were melted away into a fluid, or were evaporated away in vapors.’ (The City of God). And again: ‘God, the wonderful and inexpressible Artisan, will, with a wonderful and inexpressible speed, restore our flesh from the whole of the material of which it was constituted, and it will make no difference to its reconstruction whether hairs go back to hairs and nails go back to nails, or whatever of these had perished be changed to flesh and be assigned to other parts of the body, while the providence of the Artisan will take care that nothing unseemly result.’ (Handbook of Faith, Hope, and Charity).

Belief in the resurrection is also expressed in Jewish liturgy; for example, in the Morning Prayer Elohai Neshamah: ‘The soul that You, my God, have given me is pure. You created it, You formed it, You breathed it into me, You protect it within me, and You will some day take it from my body and return it to me in the world-to-come. As long as my soul is within me, I give thanks to You Adonai, my God and the God of my ancestors, Master of all Creation, Lord of all souls. Praised are You, Adonai, Restorer of souls to bodies that have died.’; in the Shemoneh 'Esreh; in the funeral services; and in the benediction: ‘Blessed be Thou who revivest the dead’ - recited upon awakening from the sleep.

In his commentary on the Mishnah, Maimonides compiles what he refers to as the ‘Shloshah-Asar Ikkarim’, the ‘Thirteen Articles of Faith’; compiled from Judaism's 613 commandments found in the Torah. Maimonides refers to these thirteen principles of faith as: ‘The fundamental truths of our religion and its very foundations.’ The Thirteenth Article confirms Jewish belief in the resurrection of the dead. Maimonide declared that those who deny the concept of resurrection of the dead have forfeited their share in Olam Haba - the Hereafter (Mishneh Torah Hilkhot Teshuvah).

The resurrection of the physical body seems incredible only to unbelievers such as you. Indeed, much of what the Baha’i have to say on this matter is reminiscent of that said by unbelievers when the Qur’an was being revealed. These people believed the resurrection to be biologically impossible, asking again and again: ‘What? When we are dead and have become dust and bones, shall we then be raised up? And our earliest forefathers too?’ (Al-Waqi‘a: 47-48).

You wonder how unbelievers can ‘be heedless’ when faced with these overwhelming events.

T.S. Eliot said: ‘Humankind cannot bear very much reality.’ He was correct. How many times do we say - when confronted by some shocking event: ‘This cannot be happening to me……you must be joking…….this is a nightmare…….this can’t be real (or words to that effect). Our minds cannot accept the enormity of what has happened; and our first response is denial. Our second is anger; often aimed at inanimate objects, complete strangers, friends or family. Our third is a need to regain control (this is when we utter the most futile words of all: ‘If only’). It is also when we try and make a deal with the Almighty: ‘Turn back the clock, give me a second chance, and I’ll do the right thing this time.

Professor Fazlur Rahman writes: ‘The basic idea underlying the Qur’an’s teaching on the hereafter is that there will come a moment, "The Hour (al-sā‘a)", when every human will be shaken into a unique and unprecedented self-awareness of his deeds: he will squarely and starkly face his own doings, not-doings, and misdoings.’ (‘Major Themes of the Qur’an’).

On that Day, the unbeliever will be told: ‘You paid no attention to this (Day); but today We have removed your veil and your sight is sharp.’ (Qaf:22).

On that Day, when the veil that stood between the truth of objective reality and the fairy tales of their imagination has been torn aside, the unbelievers will discover - to their horror and dismay - that their treasured opinions were nothing but lies. Denial and anger will follow.

As for the believers; the ones who never doubted that the fact of human existence is a clear sign of divine power - the power to create; the ones who never doubted that having created mankind once, the Creator can do it a second time; the ones who did not make a liar of their Lord. Their fate will be quite different: ‘On that Day (they will have) radiant faces, looking towards their Lord.’ (Al-Qiyama: 22-23).

Professor Fazlur Rahman writes: ‘The central endeavour of the Qur’an is for man to develop this "keen sight" here and now, when there is opportunity for action and progress, for at the Hour of Judgment it will be too late to remedy the state of affairs; there one will be reaping, not sowing or nurturing. Hence one can speak there only of eternal success or failure, of everlasting Fire or Garden - that is to say, for the fate of the individual.’ (Major Themes of the Qur’an).

You write: ‘So, If I take a while to ponder, personally have no choice, either to think the Quran is false and irrational…….(or)…….to say the Day of Resurrection have another interpretation than its outward appearance.

By stating that Day of Resurrection can be interpreted differently to that taught by the Qur’an (and the Bible) you are, in fact, stating that both Books are ‘false and irrational’. You are, in fact, denying centuries of teaching and witness; the teaching and witness, not only of the ordinary believer, but of the Prophets themselves. Tell me: Who would you have a Muslim, or Christian or Jew believe....… Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) who revealed the truth of a physical resurrection; or the deniers?

Have a nice day.

Paul
 
Old 12-11-2015, 08:00 AM   #61
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Dear Paul,

1. You can keep your belief and we keep our belief and we stay friends.
2. When an earth quake happens or a tsunami occurs somewhere in the World, everyone becomes aware of it as we have seen many times Today. For obvious reasons, if the events of the Day of Judgement were to occur physically, no one remains heedless as they are by far greater than those earthquakes we have heard of. This is like, saying, a person says, I can feel the pinch of a niddle, but cannot feel the wound of a knife!
3. In Quran it says after all these Events "The earth will shine with the Light of God". If the Last day, was literally the last day of the earth, what is the point that the earth to Shine with the Light of Knowledge and Guidence of God?!
4. In Bible the term of Resurrection of Dead has a spiritual signification. Jesus already taught by stories what it means. Among the stories is the story in chapter of Luke 15:
"...For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate."

It clearly says he was lost (dead) and now found (alive)! Please read the whole story from that chapter.

5. In Quran it says when people of the Past followed their shcolars, they were mislead from the Path of God.
6. Muhammad prophecied there come a time, the Muslim Scholars will be the most evil ones.
7. Quran teaches if anyone kills a person, it is like killing all mankind, whereas it is hard to find a day, some group of Muslims do not kill another group. How can we say, Quran is Not forgotten?
8. In Bible, Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, no one come to Father except through Me". The Christians interpret it literally, thus they were deprived of the Revelation of Muhammad. If litertalism helped them in that Age, it would also Help us in this Age.


Regards,
Enjoy the night.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 12-11-2015 at 11:09 AM.
 
Old 12-11-2015, 11:08 AM   #62
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hello again.Have a nice day.

Paul
You too Paul

If you do want answers to what you have posted, this was the purpose of the Kitab-i-quan. May have said that a couple of times

We could post scriptures back and forward, we could offer passages that say The Fleash profiteth Nothing and we must be born again in Spirit etc.

Frame of Reference Paul - One keeps with the same Frame of Reference to hold a view or explores other Frames of reference to see if the view has other possible interpretations.

God bless and regards Tony
 
Old 12-11-2015, 11:11 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Dear Paul,

1. You can keep your belief and we keep our belief and we stay friends.
2. When an earth quake happens or a tsunami occurs somewhere in the World, everyone becomes aware of it as we have seen many times Today. For obvious reasons, if the events of the Day of Judgement were to occur physically, no one remains heedless as they are by far greater than those earthquakes we have heard of. This is like, saying, a person says, I can feel the pinch of a niddle, but cannot feel the wound of a knife!
3. In Quran it says after all these Events "The earth will shine with the Light of God". If the Last day, was literally the last day of the earth, what is the point that the earth to Shine with the Light of Knowledge and Guidence of God?!
4. In Bible the term of Resurrection of Dead has a spiritual signification. Jesus already taught by stories what it means. Among the stories is the story in chapter of Luke 15:
"...For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate."

It clearly says he was lost (dead) and now found (alive)! Please read the whole story from that chapter.

5. In Quran it says when people of the Past followed their shcolars, they were mislead from the Path of God.
6. Muhammad prophecied there come a time, the Muslim Scholars will be the most evil ones.
7. Quran teaches if anyone kills a person, it is like killing all mankind, whereas it is hard to find a day, some group of Muslims do not kill another group. How can we say, Quran is Not forgotten?
8. In Bible, Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, no one come to Father except through Me". The Christians interpret it literally, thus they were deprived of the Revelation of Muhammad. If litertalism helped them in that Age, it would also Help us in this Age.


Regards,
Enjoy the night.
I enjoy your discussion with Paul; thanks to both of you
it is a very interesting discussion. the reasons Paul brings on, are the ones I hear almost everyday living in an Islamic society. some of them are my questions as well and if they are not answers, they can turn into doubts. I am happy that these questions are talked about here. thank you
 
Old 12-11-2015, 11:57 AM   #64
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
I enjoy your discussion with Paul; thanks to both of you
it is a very interesting discussion. the reasons Paul brings on, are the ones I hear almost everyday living in an Islamic society. some of them are my questions as well and if they are not answers, they can turn into doubts. I am happy that these questions are talked about here. thank you
Maryamr - Much on this in the Baha'i Writing's, you can start a thread if you like!

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 88-94

The whole physical creation is perishable. These material bodies are composed of atoms; when these atoms begin to separate decomposition sets in, then comes what we call death. This composition of atoms, which constitutes the body or mortal element of any created being, is temporary. When the power of attraction, which holds these atoms together, is withdrawn, the body, as such, ceases to exist.
With the soul it is different. The soul is not a combination of elements, it is not composed of many atoms, it is of one indivisible substance and therefore eternal. It is entirely out of the order of the physical creation; it is immortal!
Scientific philosophy has demonstrated that a simple element (‘simple’ meaning ‘not composed’) is indestructible, eternal. The soul, not being a composition of elements, is, in character, as a simple element, and therefore cannot cease to exist.

Consider decomposed elements move to other forms. For the past form to be remade with those elements would mean the decomposition of what they are currently attached to.

Pointless really in an ever advancing creation.

God bless always and Regards Tony
 
Old 12-12-2015, 03:43 AM   #65
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In my honest opinion - and I say this not in order to criticize anyone, but just in order to express some deeply-felt thoughts of mine - discussions about prophecies, specific texts in the Bible and the Quran, pointing - or not pointing - to Bahá'u'lláh and the Báb, have a tendency to quickly turn into page-finding exercises, where issues of authenticity, certain formulations, the validity of different translations, the authenticity of certain traditions, are at the core of the exchanges. Such discussions, in my experience, become intellectual, rather cold, quite similar to academic seminars - but lacking the relatively established procedures of such seminars.

I've never seen long exchanges on such issues turn into agreement. Instead, to my experience, they lead into entrenched positions. I believe that the reason is that they usually lack the warm spirit of true spiritual encounters.

That's why personally I try to avoid such subjects. I believe much more in exchanges on such topics as virtues, reflection on events in the light of a spiritual approach. I find it much easier to find common grounds with adherents of other creeds when deliberating on those aspects.

After all, one doesn't really convince anyone with intellectual arguments. Hearts open when met with love, compassion, genuine concern. Never heard of a heart opened by means of an intellectual discussion.

But all this said, the year 1260 mentioned in the Book of Revelation is fascinating, because, in order to interptret it, one has to accept both the Christ and Muhammad. Christians who don't believe in Muhammad, cannot accept that 1260 according to the Muslim calendar - that is 1844 in the Christian calendar - could have any significance at all. Muslims, on the other hand, have to accept that there are good reasons to turn back to the Bible in order to find additional information. So that is why the Báb, who appeared in 1260/1844, so clearly foretold, still appeared as a thief in the night, because hardly anyone was able to read and understand. And the core of this matter, although it's an intellectual one, actually is faith, and the intellectual understanding, which comes from that faith guides the intellect.

Best

from

gnat

Last edited by gnat; 12-12-2015 at 03:45 AM.
 
Old 12-12-2015, 08:41 AM   #66
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Hello Maryam,

You write, in a post to Investigate Truth, that the arguments I put forward (presumably regarding the physical resurrection of the body) are ones you hear: ‘Almost everyday living in an Islamic society’.

This should not surprise you, since my arguments are in full accord with Islamic teaching (and with Christian and Jewish teaching, for that matter). As you know, it is a great sin in Islam to misrepresent its teachings; to say that such-and-such is an Islamic truth when it is not. I would say that it is also a sin to misrepresent the teachings of all other faiths, too. That is why I take care to support my argument with relevant quotes; either from the Holy Books, or from the scholars. It this way, people can judge for themselves whether or not my arguments are truly representative. What they do next is, of course, entirely their affair.

Have a good day, and very best regards,

Paul.
 
Old 12-12-2015, 08:42 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
In my honest opinion - and I say this not in order to criticize anyone, but just in order to express some deeply-felt thoughts of mine - discussions about prophecies, specific texts in the Bible and the Quran, pointing - or not pointing - to Bahá'u'lláh and the Báb, have a tendency to quickly turn into page-finding exercises, where issues of authenticity, certain formulations, the validity of different translations, the authenticity of certain traditions, are at the core of the exchanges. Such discussions, in my experience, become intellectual, rather cold, quite similar to academic seminars - but lacking the relatively established procedures of such seminars.

I've never seen long exchanges on such issues turn into agreement. Instead, to my experience, they lead into entrenched positions. I believe that the reason is that they usually lack the warm spirit of true spiritual encounters.

That's why personally I try to avoid such subjects. I believe much more in exchanges on such topics as virtues, reflection on events in the light of a spiritual approach. I find it much easier to find common grounds with adherents of other creeds when deliberating on those aspects.

After all, one doesn't really convince anyone with intellectual arguments. Hearts open when met with love, compassion, genuine concern. Never heard of a heart opened by means of an intellectual discussion.

But all this said, the year 1260 mentioned in the Book of Revelation is fascinating, because, in order to interptret it, one has to accept both the Christ and Muhammad. Christians who don't believe in Muhammad, cannot accept that 1260 according to the Muslim calendar - that is 1844 in the Christian calendar - could have any significance at all. Muslims, on the other hand, have to accept that there are good reasons to turn back to the Bible in order to find additional information. So that is why the Báb, who appeared in 1260/1844, so clearly foretold, still appeared as a thief in the night, because hardly anyone was able to read and understand. And the core of this matter, although it's an intellectual one, actually is faith, and the intellectual understanding, which comes from that faith guides the intellect.

Best

from

gnat
Hello Gnat,

‘Myself when young did eagerly frequent doctor and saint, and heard great argument about it and about: but evermore came out by the same door as in I went.’ Omar Khayyam.

We both share this sentiment; that much is clear.

As long as the Bahai are content to discuss their own religious writings, and to confine their opinions to those writings, then why should a non-Bahai complain? On the other hand, should the Bahai seek to justify their beliefs by misrepresting the teachings of other faiths, then they cannot complain when members of those faiths call them to account.

Have a good day, and very best regards,

Paul.
 
Old 12-12-2015, 08:44 AM   #68
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Joined: Jun 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Dear Paul,

1. You can keep your belief and we keep our belief and we stay friends.
2. When an earth quake happens or a tsunami occurs somewhere in the World, everyone becomes aware of it as we have seen many times Today. For obvious reasons, if the events of the Day of Judgement were to occur physically, no one remains heedless as they are by far greater than those earthquakes we have heard of. This is like, saying, a person says, I can feel the pinch of a niddle, but cannot feel the wound of a knife!
3. In Quran it says after all these Events "The earth will shine with the Light of God". If the Last day, was literally the last day of the earth, what is the point that the earth to Shine with the Light of Knowledge and Guidence of God?!
4. In Bible the term of Resurrection of Dead has a spiritual signification. Jesus already taught by stories what it means. Among the stories is the story in chapter of Luke 15:
"...For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate."

It clearly says he was lost (dead) and now found (alive)! Please read the whole story from that chapter.

5. In Quran it says when people of the Past followed their shcolars, they were mislead from the Path of God.
6. Muhammad prophecied there come a time, the Muslim Scholars will be the most evil ones.
7. Quran teaches if anyone kills a person, it is like killing all mankind, whereas it is hard to find a day, some group of Muslims do not kill another group. How can we say, Quran is Not forgotten?
8. In Bible, Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, no one come to Father except through Me". The Christians interpret it literally, thus they were deprived of the Revelation of Muhammad. If litertalism helped them in that Age, it would also Help us in this Age.

Regards,
Enjoy the night.
Investigate Truth.

Of course we can hold to our respective beliefs and remain friends.

Concerning your third point: The Qur’an states, clearly and directly, that the earth and the heavens, as we know them, were created for a purpose and for a fixed time: ‘This Scripture is sent down from Allāh, the Almighty, the Wise. It was for a true purpose and a specific term that We created heaven and earth and everything in between, yet those who deny the truth ignore the warning they have been given.’ (Al-Ahqaf 2-3).

It is also made clear that the events of the Day of Judgment will bring new heavens and a new earth: ‘So do not think (Prophet) that Allāh will break His promise to His messengers: He is mighty, and capable of retribution. One Day - when the earth is turned into another earth, the heavens into another heaven, and people all appear before Allāh, the One, the Overpowering.’ (Ibrahim 47-48)

This revelation is in full accord to that made by Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) to the prophet Isaiah (ʿalayhi as-salām): ‘For look, I am going to create new heavens and a new earth, and the past will not be remembered and will come no more to mind.’ (Isaiah 65:17)

Setting your fourth point in context: ‘The tax collectors and sinners, however, were all crowding round to listen to him, and the Pharisees and scribes complained saying: “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” So he told them this parable…’ (Luke 15: 1-3).

The parable continues: ‘Then he said: “There was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, "Father, let me have the share of the estate that will come to me." So the father divided the property between them. A few days later, the younger son got together everything he had and left for a distant country where he squandered his money on a life of debauchery.

'When he had spent it all, that country experienced a severe famine, and now he began to feel the pinch; so he hired himself out to one of the local inhabitants who put him on his farm to feed the pigs. And he would willingly have filled himself with the husks the pigs were eating but no one would let him have them. Then he came to his senses and said, "How many of my father's hired men have all the food they want and more, and here am I dying of hunger! I will leave this place and go to my father and say: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son; treat me as one of your hired men."

‘So he left the place and went back to his father. While he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was moved with pity. He ran to the boy, clasped him in his arms and kissed him. Then his son said, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I no longer deserve to be called your son." But the father said to his servants, "Quick! Bring out the best robe and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the calf we have been fattening, and kill it; we will celebrate by having a feast, because this son of mine was dead and has come back to life; he was lost and is found." And they began to celebrate.’ (Verses 11-24).

Comment: The purpose of this parable is to teach that ‘there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner repenting than over ninety-nine upright people who have no need of repentance.’ (Verse 7). Clearly the son did not die. His father was using a figure of speach, nothing more.

Concerning your fifth point. Indeed they were. But we who believe in the physical resurrection of the body are not misled. We do not follow the scholars in this matter; we follow Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) speaking through His prophets.

Concerning your sixth point: Indeed he did. But he could not have been referring to scholars who teach acceptance of the physical resurrection, since that revelation precedes him by centuries.

Concerning your seventh point: How can we say that the Qur’an is not forgotten? Because I for one have not forgotten it; and nor have millions of other Muslims.

The murder of another human being is a crime. This is not a matter of forgetting the Qur’an, but of disobeying the Qur’an.

Concerning your final point: This has nothing to do with the matter in hand. There is no dispute between Muslims and Christians concerning the physical resurrection of the body.

Have a great day.

Paul
 
Old 12-12-2015, 09:57 AM   #69
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Dear Paul,

Here are some more questions for you, if you had time look at them:
These questions are only related to verse 3:7. And my intention is to consider many points that from this verse alone can be understood, if we think about it word for word:

1. What is the Purpose of the Author of Quran to reveal some verses that are Clear (Muhkamaat) and some verses that are Figurative (Mutishabihat)?
2. Why He did not reveal all as Clear verses? Why he included Mutishabihat as well?
3. Why the Author of Quran did not say which verses are the Figurative ones. I mean, He did not say, for example verse 19:39 is of the clear ones or Figurative ones? But He left that to our own Judjement.
4. The Verse says, only God knows the interpretation of the Figurative verses. What is the benefit of such verses, if regular people do not know their interpretation?
5. What does it mean, "those who in their hearts is discord, follow the Figurative verses"??
6. What is intended by 'following the Figurative'?
7. In another verse, Quran says, it is a clear Book. How can it be clear and at the same time have verses that only God knows their interpretation?
8. Why would those who in their heart is discord, follow its Figurative and crave for interpretation?
9. Why should God puts such verses that can cause 'craving for interpretation', even though no one knows their interpretation? It looks like putting something that causes craving, so that those who crave, come after it (follow it). Yes? But those who in their heart is NOT discord, would not crave to interpret them. Yes? Is this not a way to separate these Two from each other?
10. Quran in this verse prophecied that such people appear that crave for the interpretation of Figurative verses. So, how did this prophecy fulfilled? Do you know some group that they craved for interpretation?
11. So, if we come across some verses that are not so clear, what should we do then? What is the instruction of Quran when we are faced with some unclear verses?
12. Quran says on the Day of Resurrection, its interpretation shall come! Perhaps this means, the Author of Quran had instructed that, the Muslims should not try to interpret those unclear verses and wait for its interpretation to come on the Day of Resurrection. Yes?
13. In Quran, it says with such verse He guides many, and misleads many! Why should God include such parables that can mislead many? Quran is a Book of guidence, is it not?

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 12-12-2015 at 10:06 AM.
 
Old 12-12-2015, 11:18 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hello Maryam,

You write, in a post to Investigate Truth, that the arguments I put forward (presumably regarding the physical resurrection of the body) are ones you hear: ‘Almost everyday living in an Islamic society’.

This should not surprise you, since my arguments are in full accord with Islamic teaching (and with Christian and Jewish teaching, for that matter). As you know, it is a great sin in Islam to misrepresent its teachings; to say that such-and-such is an Islamic truth when it is not. I would say that it is also a sin to misrepresent the teachings of all other faiths, too. That is why I take care to support my argument with relevant quotes; either from the Holy Books, or from the scholars. It this way, people can judge for themselves whether or not my arguments are truly representative. What they do next is, of course, entirely their affair.

Have a good day, and very best regards,

Paul.
Hi dear Paul
I hope you are fine... I accept what you have said here " it is a great sin in Islam to misrepresent its teachings; to say that such-and-such is an Islamic truth when it is not.". very very true. in fact it is a sin in any religion and not also about Islam. no religious scripture can be (and mustn't be) interpreted by any human being in a wrong way. yet the matter here is that we Bahai's don't think that Baha'ullah is just anyone. it is said in Muslim Hadiths that when Qaim comes, He will bring the real Islam and then Muslims will oppose Him saying that what He has brought is not Islam but a kind of blasphemy.
you know, I sincerely think that no arguments' can ever change a Muslim mind or a Baha'i mind or a Christian mind. any argument which is brought up will be well answered by another argument from the other side of the argument. the only way is to read the scripture (in this case Baha'i scripture) and then see if you feel a light and love in your heart or not. if you feel that then you can be sure that you are going the right path and then you can accept other matters. I am not suggesting you to change your mind or to read our scripture. I still remember that you said you have made a fix decision and you are no more in need of finding another truth
I am just saying that whether you have better explanations or we have better explanations doesn't show anything. one must read for himself and accept a faith first of all in his own heart
 
Old 12-12-2015, 11:46 AM   #71
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
Hi dear Paul
I hope you are fine... I accept what you have said here " it is a great sin in Islam to misrepresent its teachings; to say that such-and-such is an Islamic truth when it is not.". very very true. in fact it is a sin in any religion and not also about Islam. no religious scripture can be (and mustn't be) interpreted by any human being in a wrong way. yet the matter here is that we Bahai's don't think that Baha'ullah is just anyone. it is said in Muslim Hadiths that when Qaim comes, He will bring the real Islam and then Muslims will oppose Him saying that what He has brought is not Islam but a kind of blasphemy.
you know, I sincerely think that no arguments' can ever change a Muslim mind or a Baha'i mind or a Christian mind. any argument which is brought up will be well answered by another argument from the other side of the argument. the only way is to read the scripture (in this case Baha'i scripture) and then see if you feel a light and love in your heart or not. if you feel that then you can be sure that you are going the right path and then you can accept other matters. I am not suggesting you to change your mind or to read our scripture. I still remember that you said you have made a fix decision and you are no more in need of finding another truth
I am just saying that whether you have better explanations or we have better explanations doesn't show anything. one must read for himself and accept a faith first of all in his own heart
The first 2 Hidden words confirm this;

"O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting."

"O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."

Regards Tony
 
Old 12-12-2015, 12:39 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Dear Paul,

Here are some more questions for you, if you had time look at them:
These questions are only related to verse 3:7. And my intention is to consider many points that from this verse alone can be understood, if we think about it word for word:

1. What is the Purpose of the Author of Quran to reveal some verses that are Clear (Muhkamaat) and some verses that are Figurative (Mutishabihat)?
2. Why He did not reveal all as Clear verses? Why he included Mutishabihat as well?
3. Why the Author of Quran did not say which verses are the Figurative ones. I mean, He did not say, for example verse 19:39 is of the clear ones or Figurative ones? But He left that to our own Judjement.
4. The Verse says, only God knows the interpretation of the Figurative verses. What is the benefit of such verses, if regular people do not know their interpretation?
5. What does it mean, "those who in their hearts is discord, follow the Figurative verses"??
6. What is intended by 'following the Figurative'?
7. In another verse, Quran says, it is a clear Book. How can it be clear and at the same time have verses that only God knows their interpretation?
8. Why would those who in their heart is discord, follow its Figurative and crave for interpretation?
9. Why should God puts such verses that can cause 'craving for interpretation', even though no one knows their interpretation? It looks like putting something that causes craving, so that those who crave, come after it (follow it). Yes? But those who in their heart is NOT discord, would not crave to interpret them. Yes? Is this not a way to separate these Two from each other?
10. Quran in this verse prophecied that such people appear that crave for the interpretation of Figurative verses. So, how did this prophecy fulfilled? Do you know some group that they craved for interpretation?
11. So, if we come across some verses that are not so clear, what should we do then? What is the instruction of Quran when we are faced with some unclear verses?
12. Quran says on the Day of Resurrection, its interpretation shall come! Perhaps this means, the Author of Quran had instructed that, the Muslims should not try to interpret those unclear verses and wait for its interpretation to come on the Day of Resurrection. Yes?
13. In Quran, it says with such verse He guides many, and misleads many! Why should God include such parables that can mislead many? Quran is a Book of guidence, is it not?
Well hello Again!

This reply is a direct quote from the Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Book 3); a far better reply than any I can give.

Here is the verse in question: ‘There is no God but Him, the Mighty, the Wise: It is He Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow (only) that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah, and seeking its Ta'wil, but none knows its Ta'wil except Allāh. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; all of it is from our Lord.'' And none receive admonition except men of understanding’ (Al‘Imran 6-7).

Tafsir:

‘Allāh states that in the Qur'an, there are Ayat that are Muhkamat, entirely clear and plain, and these are the foundations of the Book which are plain for everyone. And there are Ayat in the Qur'an that are Mutashabihat not entirely clear for many, or some people. So those who refer to the Muhkam Ayat to understand the Mutashabih Ayat, will have acquired the correct guidance, and vice versa. This is why Allāh said: “They are the foundations of the Book”, meaning, they are the basis of the Qur'an, and should be referred to for clarification, when warranted.

‘And others not entirely clear, as they have several meanings, some that agree with the Muhkam and some that carry other literal indications, although these meaning might not be desired. The Muhkamat are the Ayat, that explain the allowed, the prohibited, the laws, limits, obligations and rulings that should be believed in and implemented.

‘As for the Mutashabihat Ayat, they include the parables, oaths, and what should be believed in, but not implemented. Muhammad bin Ishaq bin Yasar (said of the words): “In it are verses that are entirely clear” (that they): “Containing proof of the Lord, immunity for the servants and a refutation of opponents and of falsehood. They cannot be changed or altered from what they were meant for.” He also said: “As for the unclear Ayat, they can (but must not) be altered and changed, and this is a test from Allāh to the servants, just as He tested them with the allowed and prohibited things. So these Ayat must not be altered to imply a false meaning or be distorted from the truth.”

‘Therefore, Allāh said: “So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation”, meaning, those who are misguided and deviate from truth to falsehood (and): “They follow that which is not entirely clear thereof”, meaning, they refer to the Mutashabih, because they are able to alter its meanings to conform with their false interpretation since the wordings of the Mutashabihat encompass such a wide area of meanings.

‘As for the Muhkam Ayat, they cannot be altered because they are clear and, thus, constitute unequivocal proof against the misguided people. This is why Allāh said: “seeking Al-Fitnah”, meaning, they seek to misguide their following by pretending to prove their innovation by relying on
the Qur'an - the Mutashabih of it - but, this is proof against and not for them. For instance, Christians might claim that `Isa is divine because the Qur'an states that he is Ruhullah and His Word, which He gave to Mary, all the while ignoring Allāh 's statements that he (Isa): “Was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him.’ (43:59) and: “Verily, the likeness of `Isa before Allāh is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!'' and he was. (3:59). There are other Ayat that clearly assert that `Isa is but one of Allāh 's creatures and that he is the servant and Messenger of Allāh, among other Messengers.

‘Concerning the words: “Seeking Al-Fitnah”: Imam Ahmad recorded that Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allāh recited: “It is He Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book; and others not entirely clear), until, (Men of understanding)” and he said: “When you see those who argue in it (using the Mutashabihat), then they are those whom Allāh meant. Therefore, beware of them.''

‘Al-Bukhari recorded a similar Hadith in the Tafsir of this Ayah (3:7) as did Muslim in the book of Qadar (the Divine Will) in his Sahih, and Abu Dawud in the Sunnah section of his Sunan, from Aishah: "The Messenger of Allāh recited this Ayah: “It is He Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are entirely clear”, until: “And none receive admonition except men of understanding”. He then said: “When you see those who follow what is not so clear of the Qur'an, then they are those whom Allāh described, so beware of them.'' This is the wording recorded by Al-Bukhari.

‘Allāh said: “But none knows its Ta'wil except Allāh.” (According to Ibn Abbas): “Tafsir is of four types: Tafsir that the Arabs know in their language; Tafsir that no one is excused of being ignorant of; Tafsir that the scholars know; and Tafsir that only Allah knows.''

‘The Messenger of Allāh supplicated for the benefit of Ibn Abbas: “O Allāh! Bestow on him knowledge in the religion and teach him the Ta'wil (interpretation).”

‘Ta'wil has two meanings in the Qur'an: The true reality of things, and what they will turn out to be. For instance, Allāh said: “And he said: "O my father! This is the Ta'wil of my dream aforetime!'' 12:100) and: “Awaited they for it's Ta'wil On the Day (Day of Resurrection). It's Ta'wil is finally fulfilled.” (7:53) refers to the true reality of Resurrection that they were told about.

‘Allāh's statement that: “Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in it; all of it is from our Lord.’'' means, they believe in the Mutashabih. “All of all of it is from our Lord”, meaning, both the Muhkam and the Mutashabih are true and authentic, and each one of them testifies to the truth of the other. This is because they both are from Allāh and nothing that comes from Allāh is ever met by contradiction or discrepancy. Allāh said: “Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully! Had it been from other than Allāh, they would surely have found therein many a contradiction.” (4:82)

Allāh said in this Ayah: “And none receive admonition except men of understanding.” meaning, those who have good minds and sound comprehension, understand, contemplate and comprehend the meaning in the correct manner. Further, Ibn Al-Mundhir recorded in his Tafsir that Nafi` bin Yazid said: "Those firmly grounded in knowledge are those who are modest for Allāh 's sake, humbly seek His pleasure, and do not exaggerate regarding those above them, or belittle those below them.''

‘Allāh said that they supplicate to their Lord: “Our Lord! Let not our hearts deviate (from the truth) after You have guided us.” meaning: "Do not deviate our hearts from the guidance after You allowed them to acquire it. Do not make us like those who have wickedness in their hearts, those who follow the Mutashabih in the Qur'an. Rather, make us remain firmly on Your straight path and true religion. And grant Mercy, with which You make our hearts firm, and increase in our Faith and certainty, Truly, You are the Bestower.”

‘Ibn Abi Hatim and Ibn Jarir recorded that Umm Salamah said that the Prophet used to supplicate: “O You Who changes the hearts, make my heart firm on Your religion.” He then recited: "Our Lord! Let not our hearts deviate (from the truth) after You have guided us, and grant us mercy from You. Truly, You are the Bestower.''’

End of quote.

That’s me done!

Have a great weekend, and very best regards,

Paul
 
Old 12-12-2015, 01:00 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
Hi dear Paul
I hope you are fine... I accept what you have said here " it is a great sin in Islam to misrepresent its teachings; to say that such-and-such is an Islamic truth when it is not.". very very true. in fact it is a sin in any religion and not also about Islam. no religious scripture can be (and mustn't be) interpreted by any human being in a wrong way. yet the matter here is that we Bahai's don't think that Baha'ullah is just anyone. it is said in Muslim Hadiths that when Qaim comes, He will bring the real Islam and then Muslims will oppose Him saying that what He has brought is not Islam but a kind of blasphemy.
you know, I sincerely think that no arguments' can ever change a Muslim mind or a Baha'i mind or a Christian mind. any argument which is brought up will be well answered by another argument from the other side of the argument. the only way is to read the scripture (in this case Baha'i scripture) and then see if you feel a light and love in your heart or not. if you feel that then you can be sure that you are going the right path and then you can accept other matters. I am not suggesting you to change your mind or to read our scripture. I still remember that you said you have made a fix decision and you are no more in need of finding another truth
I am just saying that whether you have better explanations or we have better explanations doesn't show anything. one must read for himself and accept a faith first of all in his own heart
Dear Maryam.

I am very well, thank you; and I hope it is the same for you.

I believe the Baha’i are honourable people, and I respect their devotion to Baha’u’llah, and to their sacred writings. Some Baha’i drive me nuts some of the time (and I guess I drive them nuts, perhaps for most of the time). Such is life.

Argument can change both heart and mind - that is why people convert from one faith to another. However, both heart and mind must desire change, and be open to the unknown. Easier said than done!

I agree, wholeheartedly, that the very best way is to read the scriptures (and to remember the Beloved in prayer, of course. This above all). The greatest argument against argument is that it robs us of time with the Beloved.

May Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) bless you, and keep you happy.

Your friend, Paul.
 
Old 12-13-2015, 05:38 AM   #74
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Hi Paul,

Yes, I can agree overall with that tafseer.

So, I want to tell you something else:


"Do they await except its TAWEEL? The Day its TAWEEL comes those who had ignored it before will say, "The messengers of our Lord had come with the truth, so are there [now] any intercessors to intercede for us or could we be sent back to do other than we used to do?" They will have lost themselves, and lost from them is what they used to invent." 7:53


In this verse I put the original Quranic word 'TAWEEL'. It can be translated as 'interpretation', 'Fulfillment', or 'Final Result'.
All of them are correct.

But the best way to understand its meaning, is from other verse of Quran this word was used.

This word is used in instances, where a Prophetic saying or dream was said. Then people waited to see how this saying or dream would come to pass. Then Quran says the TAWEEL of the dream or saying.
In all cases, it meant the fulfillment or interpretation according to inner and hidden meaning. An Example was '7 fat cows appeared followed by 7 slim Cows'.
When its TAWEEL came, it appeared as 7 years of prosperity followed by 7 years of poverty. This was the fulfillment according to its hidden meaning.

Now, in 7:53, it says, when the TAWEEL of Day of Resurrection comes, they will know. The Usage of the Word TAWEEL in this verse, is a sufficient proof that, the Day of Resurrection would be fulfilled according to a hidden meaning of the verses, Not its outward form.

Today, many people in Muslim countries are suffering from Fire of war. They all wish to flee. From Iran, Iraq, Lebonan,..to Syria. They are suffering.
Had these people recognized that Today, the promised Day have come, and they had entered under protection of this New Faith, had not they been in peace and unity with each other?

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 12-13-2015 at 05:43 AM.
 
Old 12-13-2015, 07:26 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Hi Paul,

Yes, I can agree overall with that tafseer.

So, I want to tell you something else:


"Do they await except its TAWEEL? The Day its TAWEEL comes those who had ignored it before will say, "The messengers of our Lord had come with the truth, so are there [now] any intercessors to intercede for us or could we be sent back to do other than we used to do?" They will have lost themselves, and lost from them is what they used to invent." 7:53


In this verse I put the original Quranic word 'TAWEEL'. It can be translated as 'interpretation', 'Fulfillment', or 'Final Result'.
All of them are correct.

But the best way to understand its meaning, is from other verse of Quran this word was used.

This word is used in instances, where a Prophetic saying or dream was said. Then people waited to see how this saying or dream would come to pass. Then Quran says the TAWEEL of the dream or saying.
In all cases, it meant the fulfillment or interpretation according to inner and hidden meaning. An Example was '7 fat cows appeared followed by 7 slim Cows'.
When its TAWEEL came, it appeared as 7 years of prosperity followed by 7 years of poverty. This was the fulfillment according to its hidden meaning.

Now, in 7:53, it says, when the TAWEEL of Day of Resurrection comes, they will know. The Usage of the Word TAWEEL in this verse, is a sufficient proof that, the Day of Resurrection would be fulfilled according to a hidden meaning of the verses, Not its outward form.

Today, many people in Muslim countries are suffering from Fire of war. They all wish to flee. From Iran, Iraq, Lebonan,..to Syria. They are suffering.
Had these people recognized that Today, the promised Day have come, and they had entered under protection of this New Faith, had not they been in peace and unity with each other?
 
Old 12-13-2015, 07:30 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
I accept this is your interpretation. It is not that of the Muslims (nor of the Jews and Christians, if it comes to that!).
dear Paul
I dare say that what Investigatetruth has said IS the interpretation of Muslims (those Muslims who have deeply read the Quranic lines). yes, many Muslims read in Quran that the Taweel of Day of Resurrection will be clear in that day and then they don't ask themselves why should Qur'an use Taweel? see what I mean? I mean if the sings of day of resurrection were to be fulfilled outwardly and physically, Quran would have not used Taweel; instead in would have said something like fulfillment. this and many other similar examples are the reason for Imams to say in Hadiths that knowledge of people has 70 words and only one word of it is known; when Qaim comes He will bring all sixty nine other words.
 
Old 12-13-2015, 07:50 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
dear Paul
I dare say that what Investigatetruth has said IS the interpretation of Muslims (those Muslims who have deeply read the Quranic lines). yes, many Muslims read in Quran that the Taweel of Day of Resurrection will be clear in that day and then they don't ask themselves why should Qur'an use Taweel? see what I mean? I mean if the sings of day of resurrection were to be fulfilled outwardly and physically, Quran would have not used Taweel; instead in would have said something like fulfillment. this and many other similar examples are the reason for Imams to say in Hadiths that knowledge of people has 70 words and only one word of it is known; when Qaim comes He will bring all sixty nine other words.
Dear Maryam,

As I have said….on far too many occasions (and will say again now…..for the very last time): the physical resurrection of the body is an article of faith in the three major Abrahamic religions. Those who choose to deny this article of faith are free to do so.

From now on my response to any further questions - comments - on this matter will be…

Have a great week, and very best regards,

Paul
 
Old 12-13-2015, 09:26 AM   #78
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Posts: 1,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Dear Maryam,

As I have said….on far too many occasions (and will say again now…..for the very last time): the physical resurrection of the body is an article of faith in the three major Abrahamic religions. Those who choose to deny this article of faith are free to do so.

From now on my response to any further questions - comments - on this matter will be…

Have a great week, and very best regards,

Paul
Yes, the majority of Jews, Christians, and Muslims understood it as physical resurrection. However the Quran says, its interpretation (Taweel) comes on the Day of Resurrection and then we will know. I personally go with what Quran says, and I am not responsible for what others believe.

Have a nice weekend
 
Old 12-13-2015, 10:40 AM   #79
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Dear Maryam,

As I have said….on far too many occasions (and will say again now…..for the very last time): the physical resurrection of the body is an article of faith in the three major Abrahamic religions. Those who choose to deny this article of faith are free to do so.

From now on my response to any further questions - comments - on this matter will be…

Have a great week, and very best regards,

Paul
Yes a good history lesson

The Jews because of this reject Christ.

The Christians because of this reject Muhammad

And this mindset continues until this day?

I am currently reading the Kitab-i-iquan

Woops might have suggested that, yes it.is a challenge to is all. Funny thing is I had started it before then thread started, just read a little each morning and evening. All these complexities answed.

God bless and regards Tony
 
Old 12-14-2015, 02:49 AM   #80
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And I for my part will try my best not to pester Niblo with conclusive proof from the writings. The connections between Sufis and Bahá'ís often have been very close - Bahá'u'lláh's stay in Kurdistan being a case in point. Bahá'u'lláh's Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys, as well as the Ode to the Dove, were revealed in response to requests from Muslim mystics. It is noteworthy that they are not primarily concerned with prophecy but with spiritual experiences, a fact which I think is food for thought:

The Valley of True Poverty and Absolute Nothingness

This station is the dying from self and the living in God, the being poor in self and rich in the Desired One. Poverty as here referred to signifieth being poor in the things of the created world, rich in the things of God’s world. For when the true lover and devoted friend reacheth to the presence of the Beloved, the sparkling beauty of the Loved One and the fire of the lover’s heart will kindle a blaze and burn away all veils and wrappings. Yea, all he hath, from heart to skin, will be set aflame, so that nothing will remain save the Friend.

When the qualities of the Ancient of Days stood revealed,
Then the qualities of earthly things did Moses burn away.


(from the Seven Valleys)

Best

from

gnat
 
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