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Old 12-02-2015, 05:18 AM   #1
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Question Teaching a Sunni Muslim...

Hi friends,

i have many questions, because I'm helping a Muslim friend to understand the Baha'i faith...he has many obstacles, which i cannot really clear for him...his questions also were never a concern for me, when I became a Baha'i, because I have a Christian background...
I don't know how to help him, or if it's even possible...maybe his heart is closed. But I don't give up, because he always asks me about certain things in the faith...his last question, which is busying my mind is:

The faith evolved from a Shiite movement (the Sheikhis)...how can that be valid for a Sunni?

My friend believes, Shiites are not even Muslims -.-
Maybe I should just give up teaching him, and let him find his own way...but then, I think, it would be such a benefit for him and his family when he became a Baha'i. I can't let him down, but he freaks me out...what can I do? I know many things about Islam and out faith, but still it's not enough...Sometimes I cried, because he asked me so many questions, I could not answer-.- He told me :"Prove me that Baha'u'llah is really a messenger". This is a mission indeed...but my friend doesn't read Baha'u'llah's writings...he just wants to know everything from me, and then starts to argue with me. Really, I don't know, what will open his heart...he doen't even listen properly...but still, he thinks a lot about the faith. He is serious about finding out the truth...maybe his ego is in the way?

My next plan is, to take him to a friend, who is really an expert about Islam and the Baha'i faith...if he cannot help him, maybe I can do nothing for my friend, but pray.
Do you have any suggestions, any experience to share? I really don't know what to do anymore...
 
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Old 12-02-2015, 05:28 AM   #2
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Evolved from a Shiite movement? Certainly not. It is a new revelation.

But being a new Bahá'í with a Christian background, trying to explain the Faith to a Muslim: that's tough. Muslims attach important to so many things that are hard to understand for Christians.

I think your plan is excellent: t take your Muslim friend to someone who knows more about Islam.

Experience: it is often easier to find common ground when you leave the intellectual discussions and instead share the common spiritual experiences, such as th virtues.

gnat
 
Old 12-02-2015, 05:46 AM   #3
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All your arguments shall be derived from the Scriptures (Bible, Quran, Hadiths, Bayan, Baha'i Writings, and these only).

1_Expose some clear miracles of the Teachings (Baha'u'llah's foretelling of two world wars for instance).

2_Explain to him the contractual nature of religion.

The last verse of the Quran for instance :
Quote:
Zoaster taught that there's two Gods, a God of good and a God of evil. Abraham taught that there's only one God. Jesus taught that He is the Son of God. Mohammad taught that God has no son.Are all correct?
This final verse is the divine signature on the Alliance of God with the Muslims. But everything, including the religion of Muhammad, will return to the One God.

3_There is a deep clash between Sunnis and Shias. But Shias and Sunnis are both wrong in the fact that they have associated their ideology with their actions, that are two separate things.
For instance, the fact that the Imams were the mirrors of Muhammad don't imply that Shias act right. Sunnis can be closer to guidance than Shias, which doesn't prevent the Imams from being right.
So, don't speak of the Shias compared to the Sunnis. Don't defend Shias or Shia. But examine the life and deeds of the Twelve Imams.

4_Examine the elements that make clear that Ali was a successor of the Prophet.
5_Acknowledge the facts that the Imamate do not make of Caliphs bad leaders of their religion. The purpose of Shia was to preparing the ground for the Bayanic revelation, by slightly unfolding a certain science.

Quote:
maybe his ego is in the way?
The Quran is clear : only God can produce Sacred Verses that can compare with the Quran. It's called the dogma of inimitability.
If you can prove that the Baha'i writings have superhuman litterary qualities, he will listen.

The best way to convince a Muslim is through the Quran and the Hadith. Their are also more personnal ways of proving a religious points, but it's all related to miracles, behaviour or prophecies.
 
Old 12-02-2015, 08:45 AM   #4
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What Language your friend speaks?

I would supply him some materials for reading. Then he can decide on his own.

If he reads english, give him the online book called, 'Baha'u'llah the great anouncement of Quran'

Tell him, every religion had been divided into sects, and each sects believed the other sects are false. But in Quran, God had asked Muslims, to leave that to God, and Hadithes states that Mahdi, would judge among them.

Tell him, same proofs that Muhammad has, which is revealing the verses, are also given to the Bab and Baha'u'llah. According to established historical accounts The Bab and Baha'u'llah, like Muhammad did not study religions, but knew about all things.
 
Old 12-02-2015, 11:44 AM   #5
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Hi Tina,

I will be referring to the article: ‘A Bahá'í Approach to the Claim of Finality in Islam’ by the Bahia’s Seena Fazel and Khazeh Fananapazir.

The authors’ stated intention is to: ‘provide the basis of a new framework reconciling the Bahá'í belief that manifestations of God have appeared, in the persons of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, and will continue to appear "till the end that hath no end” with the time-honoured Islamic doctrines of khatm al-nubuwwa (finality of prophethood), and Islam as the final divinely revealed religion.’

They challenge (in particular) the doctrine of khatm al-nubuwwa; seeing it as: ‘the major theological barrier between the Bahá'í Faith and Islam.’

It is necessary to clarify their use of the word ‘prophet’; an alien word when applied to the Arabic language; and especially so when it is used within the context of Islam. The correct words to use when applying the term ‘prophet’ to the Noble Qur’an are ‘Nabī’ and ‘Rasūl’.

In the Islamic context, a Nabī (‘Prophet’) is a man sent by Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) to provide guidance to humankind; but who is not given scripture. A Rasūl (‘Messenger’) is also charge with providing guidance, but he is given scripture. All Rasūl are considered to be Nabī; but not all Nabī were Rasūl.

In a section of their article entitled ‘The Founder of Islam as Nabí’ the authors write:

‘Two different words are used in the Qur'án for the messenger of God: prophet (nabí) and apostle/messenger (rasúl). The word prophet is used on 75 occasions while apostle occurs 331 times. Most Muslims use these words interchangeably as indicated by the usual rendering of the shahada, as if it would be the confession that "there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is His Prophet", whereas the Arabic title of Muhammad here is rasúl-Alláh (God's apostle/messenger).

‘The discussion on the use of the terms prophet and apostle has been conducted for over 50 years by several Orientalists. In 1924, Wensinck defended the thesis that there is a distinction between prophet and apostle in the Qur'án.....Horovitz, agreeing with Wensinck in so far that the two words have distinctive meanings, rejects the above difference because Abraham is not referred to as an apostle in the Qur'án, but only a prophet. He suggested that nabí (prophet) is used mostly, though not exclusively, for biblical prophets, and, along with rasúl (messenger), for Muhammad himself during the Medina period. Bell and Jeffrey both argue that the words are synonymous. For instance, Jeffrey concludes: "Apparently he (Muhammad) made no special distinction between the two names rasúl and nabí".’

Comment:

It is misleading to state that Islam was founded by a ‘Nabī’. Islam was ‘founded’ by Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) by means of revelation to Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam); who became a Rasūl the moment his Lord first said to him (through Jibril - ʿalayhi as-salām): ‘Read! In the name of your Lord who created. He created man from a clinging form. Read! Your Lord is the Most Bountiful One who taught by (means of) the pen, who taught man what he did not know.’ (Al-‘Alaq: 1-5).

It makes no difference (as the authors would have us believe) how many times the words ‘Rasūl’ or
‘Nabī’ are applied to Muhammad; or whether one was used more (or less) in a certain period of his life that the other; or why this might or might not have been the case. What matters is that he was (and is) the Rasúl-Alláh.

The authors claim that the terms Nabí (prophet) and Rasúl (messenger) have:

‘….distinctly different semantic applications in the Qur'án which sometimes overlap, and have a bearing on the correlative language of the religions of the world. These semantic differences leave open the possibility, in a number of verses, for the appearance of future messengers.’ (My emphasis).

Imam Ghazali was very well aware that if one relies on the words of a given revelation alone, then many possibilities of interpretation may exist; and that some these may seriously undermine the purpose of that revelation. He insisted that any interpretation must be measured against how it was understood in the Islamic community. According to him, where there is a consensus in the community about that revelation then this consensus must be the true reflection of its purpose; and such is binding.

In respect of the finality of prophethood he writes:

‘As for the received tradition, the person (who says that a `new messenger' can still arise) will not be incapable of making various interpretations of the prophetic tradition ‘la nabiya ba`di’ ("There is no prophet after me") and God's words ‘khatam al-nabiyyin’ ("seal of the prophets"). Thus he might say that by ‘khatam al-nabiyyin’ God means the last of the prominent messengers. If you argue that nabiyyin (prophets) is general and is used without any specification, then it is not difficult to give a general term a specific meaning.

‘In respect of the prophetic tradition la nabiya ba`di ("There is no prophet after me") a person can say that this expression does not cover messengers and there is a difference between a messenger and prophet, prophet being (according to his view) superior to a messenger (so that a prophet cannot arise after the Prophet Muhammad but a messenger can still arise). Similarly, he can put forward many other arguments, which on the basis of the language used cannot be rejected. Indeed, we admit the possibility of even more remote interpretations of words used in the symbolic statements (zawahir al-tashbih).

‘We cannot even say that a person who makes such interpretations is guilty of rejecting the clear injunctions. But in refuting him we shall say that the entire Ummah by a consensus understands that the word (la nabiya ba`di) in view of the circumstances of the Prophet means that neither a prophet nor a messenger will ever arise after him. There is no room for any different interpretation nor for giving special meaning (to the term nabiyyin, prophets).

‘If, therefore, any one denies this interpretation, he can (in the first place) be described only as the denier of the consensus. And then in the second place, if the consensus is considered binding, we can unhesitatingly pronounce such a person a non-believer.’ (al-iqtisad fi al-i‘tiqad).

Comment:

This is a clear rejection of the authors’ claim that ‘……semantic differences leave open the possibility, in a number of verses, for the appearance of future messengers.’

In his work ‘The Creed of a Muslim’, Abū al-Ḥasan ʿAlī ibn Ismāʿīl Al-Ashʿarī writes that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) has: ‘...sealed this Messengership, warning, and Prophethood with his Prophet Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, whom He made the last of the Messengers - “A bringer of good news and a warner, calling to Allah by His permission and an illuminating lamp.”

Commenting on this statement Afroz Ali, of the al-Ghazzali Centre for Islamic Sciences and Human Development, writes: ‘Revelation, which is warning and prophethood, which is informing about what Allah has said, reaches its end with the Prophet Muhammad. There will be no Prophets after him. He brings the good news that whoever follows him will be happy and whoever does not will be punished. He calls to Allah, conveying tawhid to the legally responsible…….He is an illuminating light because his Shari’a is a light which guides the bewildered – whoever follows it and proceeds along the Straight Path will emerge from the darkness of disbelief to the light of belief.’

Comment:

Abū al-Ḥasan ʿAlī ibn Ismāʿīl Al-Ashʿarī is recognised as one of the three or four most influential and orthodox thinkers in the history of Islam. He has been referred to as: ‘this greatest theological authority in orthodox Islam.’ (Ignaz Goldziher). Ashʿarite doctrine is recognised as the official orthodoxy of Sunnī Islam; and its teachings are generally seen as the embodiment of Islamic orthodoxy.

Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Alawi al-Maliki al-Hasani says of the Ashʿarīs: ‘(They) are the Imams of the notable figures of guidance among the scholars of the Muslims, whose knowledge has filled the world from both east to west……They include whole sections of the foremost Imams of Hadith, Sacred Law and Qur’anic exegesis…..If we wanted to name all of the top scholars of Hadith, Qur’anic exegises, and Sacred Law who were Imams of the Ashʿarīs we would be hard pressed to do so.’ (Notions That Must Be Corrected; Page 78.)

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyya said of the Ashʿarīs: ‘The scholars are the helpers of the religious sciences, and the Ashʿarīs are the helpers of the fundamentals of the religion.’ (Al-Fatawa, Vol. 4).

In the ‘Reliance of the Traveller’ - the classic manual of Islamic sacred law - by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri; translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, we find this: ‘Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace) is the last prophet and messenger. Anyone claiming to be a prophet or messenger of Allah after him or to found a new religion is a fraud, misled and misleading. Islam is the final religion that Allah Most High will never lessen or abrogate until the Last Day’.

Comment:

The Reliance of the Traveller is widely acknowledged one of the finest and most reliable works in Shafi'i jurisprudence; a school with, perhaps, the least amount of scholarly differences on rulings than any other. For over a thousand years the Muslims have held to the conviction that Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is the last of the Rasūl and of the Nabī, and they have done so in complete accord with the scholars of Islam.

Concerning the Bahá'í literature:

According to the authors: ‘The predominant explanation of khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) in Bahá'í literature is focussed on the belief that Baha’u’llah is the fulfilment of the Qur'ánic eschatology. In this perspective, Muhammad is the last prophet prior to the Last Day, rather than the last prophet in a temporal sense.’

Comment:

According to Islam, the Day of Judgement (‘Yawm ad-Dīn’) will come only after certain signs have been fulfilled. There is no point dwelling on all of these signs; a few will suffice:

Medina will be deserted. Yeshua will return (not as prophet, but as Messiah). Mecca will be attacked, and the Ka’aba destroyed. The Noble Qur’an will be forgotten; and all Islamic knowledge will be lost.

The Mahdi will arise to assist Yeshua in the battle against Masih ad-Dajjal.

Medina is not yet deserted and the Ka’aba is intact. The Noble Qur’an has not been forgotten, and all Islamic knowledge has not been lost. There is no sign of Yeshua. There is no sign of the Mahdi (although there have been several claimants; namely):

Muhammad Ahmad of Sudan, who died of typhus at the age of forty; Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who did rather better, dying at the age of seventy three from complications arisng out of dysentery; and Siyyid `Alí Muḥammad Shírází - founder of Bábism and a central figure in the Bahá'í Faith. He was murdered by firing-squad at the age of thirty.

As far as I am aware, none of these people ever fought alongside Yeshua against Masih ad-Dajjal; and since they are now dead, doing so is going to be a wee bit tricky. May Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) have mercy on each of them.

Concerning the Shia ‘Twelvers’:

Followers of Twelver Shi'a Islam believe in twelve divinely ordained Imams - starting with Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (ʿalayhi as-salām), the Fourth Caliph of the Muslims……. and ending with a certain Muhammad ibn Hasan al-Mahdī.

Hasan al-Mahdī was born in 869 AD and ‘disappeared’ at the age of seventy. Some say he is lurking in the ether somewhere; and others that he is still among us, but in disguise. All I can say is that this disguise must be pretty effective, since it ought to be quite easy to suss a geezer who is over a thousand years old.

According to the Noble Qur’an the Day of Judgement will see:

People resurrected and gathered with the living, to account for their deeds; and with neither having the will nor the opportunity to pay attention to those around them; irrespective of whether these are parents, spouses or children.

On this Day each person will be alone before the presence of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla); and each deeds and thought will be displayed.

Since this Day has not yet arrived; and since Bahá'u'lláh is dead, I have no idea how he can be the ‘fulfilment of the Qur'ánic eschatology’.

The authors write:

‘After the cycle of prophecy (dá'irat al-nubúwa) that ended with Muhammad, the "Seal of the Prophets," there comes the cycle of Initiation (dá'irat al-waláya), the present cycle, placed under the spiritual rule of the Twelfth Imám, the hidden Imám . . .’

Comment:

‘…….the cycle of prophecy (dá'irat al-nubúwa) that ended with Muhammad’. Is this an admission that he truly was the last Rasūl and Nabī after all? It sure look like one; so why have the authors spent so much effort saying he wasn’t?

‘…….there comes the cycle of Initiation (dá'irat al-waláya), the present cycle, placed under the spiritual rule of the Twelfth Imám, the hidden Imám . . .’

I would love to know how this super geriatric is managing to do this.

And that:

‘With the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, in the Bahá'í view, humankind has entered a new religious cycle characterized by a fuller theophany. In this cycle, concepts like `prophet' and `messenger' have been transcended.’

Comment:

I would say of the authors that their true purpose is not to reconcile Islam with Bahá’í beliefs, but to persuade the reader that the latter is a continuation of divine policy by other means (with apologies to Carl von Clausewitz).

By all means continue to instruct your Muslim friend. That is his right (and yours). I wish both of you well.

Paul

Last edited by Niblo; 12-02-2015 at 11:49 AM.
 
Old 12-02-2015, 01:06 PM   #6
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Dear Paul,

You have a long list, and my time is limitted.
I am certain that the Day of Ressurection is passed. All the signs have come to pass.

To make it short, if you like, pick one or two signs that must come to pass before the Day from Quran or an Authentic Hadith with the Source. Pick the one that you strongly believe it did not pass and you cannot find evidence that it passed. Then God willing, I can find some information to indicate it passsed. Its your choice. I don't have all the knowwledge. But I spent a lot of time on these signs, so I might be able to supply you with information.
 
Old 12-02-2015, 02:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
You have a long list, and my time is limitted.
I am certain that the Day of Resurrection is passed. All the signs have come to pass.
How strange. I was reading, literally moments ago, from a provisional translation of the Bab's "Seven Proofs", and the 'Day of Judgement' (resurrection) in your comment jumped out at me!


In one word, today is the Day of the Last Judgment, it is the Day in which each one should cy: "Alas for me!", or each one should occupy himself with His own sorrow, following His religion and not following the world, for this lower world is not worthy of the preoccupation of God. Look at what happens outside of your religion: there men are rich in goods and in honors, and yet they do not have faith.

Examine with perspicacity the verses of the Qur’án related to the Last Judgment, and you will see therein the people of paradise in paradise — these are those who have known God. And the people of hell in hell — these are those who have remained in ignorance of the Most High. But as you do not wish to hold except to the ahadith of the family of Muhammad, compare with those this Manifestation, even though it is not seemly to prove a Testimony by means of old ahadith.

In effect, it is upon a word of the Master of this Manifestation that are created those who create ahadith, for that is the divine Will. God, if He wishes, and if His servants are worthy, could created as many ‘Alís as there are days in the year. The grace of God has been perfect and complete for all eternity, and, if there have occurred breaks in this grace, they are due to His servants and not to Him. In effect, the first thing that He requires is purity, and how is it that the one who has heard the voice that cried, "Am I not your Lord?" and who has not answered, "Yes," how can he be pure and arrive at the knowledge of the Manifestation?

Imagine the creatures that live today as if they were living at the time of Muhammad. At the epoch in which this Sun arose, whoever accepted it was accepted in His turn. Their acceptance was such, relative to the preceding Manifestations, that God approved of their change of faith and accorded them saintliness.

How perfect is the grace of God and how far men are from it! How much they wish they had been of those who had heard a single verse issue from the mouth of Muhammad, and today when these verses descend from the heaven of the divine mercy like a spring shower, nobody listens to them! With the
passage of time, the Bayánis (Bábis) will form also the same wishes, but they will be put to the test by the Man Yazhiruhu'llah *

* footnote (They would be good, excellent Bábís, but when Him Whom God shall manifest will appear (Baha'u'llah) they will hesitate to recognize Him.)

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/bab_n...rry_proofs.pdf

Last edited by Josh; 12-02-2015 at 02:47 PM.
 
Old 12-03-2015, 05:51 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Dear Paul,

To make it short, if you like, pick one or two signs that must come to pass before the Day from Quran or an Authentic Hadith with the Source. Pick the one that you strongly believe it did not pass and you cannot find evidence that it passed. Then God willing, I can find some information to indicate it passsed. Its your choice. I don't have all the knowwledge. But I spent a lot of time on these signs, so I might be able to supply you with information.
Hi there:

‘Narrated Abu Huraira:

‘Allah's Apostle said: "The Hour will not be established till religious knowledge is taken away (by the death of Religious scholars)………till wealth will be in abundance - so abundant that a wealthy person will worry lest nobody should accept his Zakat, and whenever he will present it to someone, that person (to whom it will be offered) will say: 'I am not in need of it’…..and till the sun rises from the West. So when the sun will rise and the people will see it (rising from the West) they will all believe (embrace Islam) but that will be the time when: (As Allah said,): “No good will it do to a soul to believe then, if it believed not before, nor earned good (by deeds of righteousness) through its Faith.' (6.158)’ (Sahih Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 88, Number 237).

I confess to spending little time on such signs...not because I doubt them, but because - at the age of seventy - I'm far too close to my End of days

Have a great week, and very best regards.

Paul
 
Old 12-03-2015, 07:18 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hi there:

‘Narrated Abu Huraira:

‘Allah's Apostle said: "The Hour will not be established till religious knowledge is taken away (by the death of Religious scholars)………till wealth will be in abundance - so abundant that a wealthy person will worry lest nobody should accept his Zakat, and whenever he will present it to someone, that person (to whom it will be offered) will say: 'I am not in need of it’…..and till the sun rises from the West. So when the sun will rise and the people will see it (rising from the West) they will all believe (embrace Islam) but that will be the time when: (As Allah said,): “No good will it do to a soul to believe then, if it believed not before, nor earned good (by deeds of righteousness) through its Faith.' (6.158)’ (Sahih Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 88, Number 237).

I confess to spending little time on such signs...not because I doubt them, but because - at the age of seventy - I'm far too close to my End of days

Have a great week, and very best regards.

Paul
Hi Paul,


Muhammad said this Hadith at a Time, when the Number of Muslims were very low, and there were relatively few Muslims in the World.

He prophecied that a time will come, that the Sun will Rise from the West, and at that time, there will be Many who will be believers, but their belief is not acceptable as it won't do any good.

In the Writings of Prophets, Manifold meaning is given to each word.

In Baha'I Writings, it is said, by the Word 'Sun', several meaning is intended.

In this particular case, it is the Sun of Knowledge. For knowledge is Light, and ignorence is darkness.

Look at today, the Sun of Knowledge is risen in the west when a new age started after 19th century which corrusponds to the Revelation of the Bab.
If we look, knowledge and science is progressed from the west in our Age and the westerners advanced.
But today, as Muhammad prophecied, though there are many Muslims, yet, it does not do any good for them. Consider how much war and mischief exists in east among Muslims. And consider, when a new Revelation has come, how would it be good, if the Muslims reject it, and yet say 'we believe'
The true wealth is the guidence from God, which has come and it is so abundant. Baha'u'llah revealed 17000 works. Yet, almost no one want it.

This is how I believe this Hadith is fulfilled. My understanding is based on Baha'I Writings....
 
Old 12-03-2015, 07:26 AM   #10
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if the real son, the burning sun, ever comes out of west and goes to east (reverse of how it is now) then the whole order of all milky way planets will be destroyed; earth's as well and then there would be no earth, no time for Qaim to come! these sentences are VERY symbolic. as God has said in Quran "before accepting anything, look to see if it agrees with science and logic". something will be ever changing in science but some other things like order of planets and the place of sun will never change.
I do agree with what InvestigateTruth has said; that is what Baha'ullah has said as well. I have another idea too and that if rising of the sun from west may be indicative of a word in which order has turned into disorder and anarchy.
 
Old 12-03-2015, 08:42 AM   #11
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Dear Maryam and Paul,

Another point that comes to my mind, is the very basic teachings of Quran.

The Quran has many examples, where it says, Hadithes require interpretation (Taweel).

Consider Surrah of Joseph. A man saw a true dream: 7 slim cows eat 7 fat cows. The Quran calls this a Hadith.
No ordinary man knew its interpretation, until they asked Prophet Joseph. He said its interpretation is this: 7 rich years appear, followed by 7 years of poverty.

When the time of it come to pass, it did pass as Joseph had interpreted.

Consider, how a true dream appears as 7 cows eaten by another 7 cows, but when it came to pass, it appeared as 7 years of prosperity followed by 7 years of poverty!

The Prophets and chosen ones of God, were inspired in dreams and visions. These are the true Hadithes.
Then how can we say, the Hadith that says the Sun rises from the west, would come to pass as it says?
Did the 14 cows appear? No, it appeared in another way. Likewise, the Hadithes of the Prophet which fortells of future events, would come to pass in another way. But who else other than the True Joseph can tell us, its interpretation?

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 12-03-2015 at 11:54 AM.
 
Old 12-03-2015, 02:44 PM   #12
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"And those who have been bestowed with knowledge and faith will say: "Indeed you have stayed according to the Decree of Allah, until the Day of Resurrection, so this is the Day of Resurrection, but you knew not."

Quran 30:56
 
Old 12-04-2015, 03:28 AM   #13
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Hi Maryamr, Investigate.

Going back to that Hadith (and taking just one ‘sign’):

‘Narrated Abu Huraira:

‘Allah's Apostle said: "The Hour will not be established till the sun rises from the West………………..’

Neither of you are saying that this Hadith is spurious. I assume, therefore, that you accept it as a genuine prophecy.

Here’s a statement: ‘The sun appears to traverse the sky in a clockwise direction…rising in the East and setting in the West.’

We all agree with this statement. The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) would also have agreed with it.

Another statement: ‘The sun will appear to traverse the sky in an anti-clockwise direction….rising in the West and setting in the East.’

This statement creates a bizarre image; one that prompted Maryamr to write: ‘If the real sun, the burning sun, ever comes out of west and goes to east (reverse of how it is now) then the whole order of all milky way planets will be destroyed; earth's as well and then there would be no earth, no time for Qaim to come! These sentences are VERY symbolic. As God has said in Quran "before accepting anything, look to see if it agrees with science and logic". Something will be ever changing in science but some other things like order of planets and the place of sun will never change. I do agree with what InvestigateTruth has said; that is what Baha'ullah has said as well. I have another idea too and that if rising of the sun from west may be indicative of a word in which order has turned into disorder and anarchy.’

A final statement: ‘The sun will appear to traverse the sky in a clockwise direction….rising in the West and setting in the East.’

This is what the Hadith is prophesising: Not a change in the sun’s direction of motion (clockwise to anti-clockwise) but a change of compass.

It is a matter geological record that this phenomenon has happened before. It will happen again. It is due to magnetic reversal; the process by which the North pole becomes the South, and the South pole becomes the North. The latest reversal - known as the Laschamp Event - is said to have taken place around forty-one thousand years ago, and to have lasted around four hundred and forty years. Had Maryamr been around then, standing with a compass in her hand and looking toward the Arctic her compass needle would have been pointing South. Had she then turned to face the new compass direction she would have seen the sun (moving in its usual clockwise direction, of course) rising from the West and setting in the East.

Mary wrote: ‘before accepting anything, look to see if it agrees with science and logic’. The ‘sign’ prophesied in this Hadith agrees with science and logic. Will you now accept it as the literal truth?

‘SCIENTISTS have warned Earth could be heading towards an extraordinary event which would see compasses point SOUTH and the sun rise in the West.’ (Article heading by Jon Austin. Published August 2015).

Have a nice day.

Paul.

Last edited by Niblo; 12-04-2015 at 03:40 AM.
 
Old 12-04-2015, 07:13 AM   #14
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Hi Paul,

God and The Prophets had tested people with these symbolic and parables.
With their words they guided many, and mislead many. I suppose this is what God does. Remember the Quran "He guides many, and He misleads many'.

This is how they separate the people of reality from the disbelievers.
I hope my saying is clear. I know, its hard to believe.


How could it be a Test, if the answer to the Test is given prior to the Test? So, they did not tell you, the Day of Resurrection is the Day that the Dead rises, or did they?
If they did, why they don't believe it happend?
Today, the answer to the Test has come. We know what is Dead and what is Alive. And we know how the Dead is raised.
Therefore, be happy that after our death, we were raised again.
But some returned as Dead and some as Live.
So, how can it be that Dead who is raised after Death, has still remained Dead?

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 12-04-2015 at 07:22 AM.
 
Old 12-04-2015, 07:28 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Hi Paul,

God and The Prophets had tested people with these symbolic and parables.
With their words they guided many, and mislead many. I suppose this is what God does. Remember the Quran "He guides many, and He misleads many'.

This is how they separate the people of reality from the disbelievers.
I hope my saying is clear. I know, its hard to believe.


How could it be a Test, if the answer to the Test is given prior to the Test? So, they did not tell you, the Day of Resurrection is the Day that the Dead rises, or did they?
If they did, why they don't believe it happend?
Today, the answer to the Test has come. We know what is Dead and what is Alive. And we know how the Dead is raised.
Therefore, be happy that after our death, we were raised again.
But some returned as Dead and some as Live.
So, how can it be that Dead who is raised after Death, has still remained Dead?
Hi Friend.

I take it that your answer to my question (post 13) is 'No'.

Nothing more to be said. Time for coffee and biscuits.

Have a great weekend, and very best regards.

Paul
 
Old 12-04-2015, 09:08 AM   #16
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that thing you said about reversal in magnetic fields of earth is very interesting Paul; I would like to think about and consider that
but there is one thing I would like to ask you. let's say that you are right. I mean when it is said that someday Sun will rise from west and go to east, then it is scientifically possible. I am sure you can find good scientific reasons and explanations for many other signs as well. am I not right? then we have read in Quran and in all other sacred book that in that day, day of Resurrection, many people will stand against Qaim. they cannot believe in Him. they will say that He cannot be Qaim and will finally kill him etc. now if those signs are going to be physically true, and if they will outwardly and clearly happen they how can people (logically) deny Qaim? seeing those many strange sings, all fulfilled, all of them, can anyone then deny Qaim?!!!
 
Old 12-04-2015, 09:22 AM   #17
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Hi Friend.

I take it that your answer to my question (post 13) is 'No'.

Nothing more to be said. Time for coffee and biscuits.

Have a great weekend, and very best regards.

Paul
Good day my Friend!

The creation of God would be meaningless, and even unjust if all people, regardless of the purity of their heart are given equally. So, He gives understanding to each one according to the purity of their heart. For this is justice, and otherwise unjust! If the impure and pure in heart are given equally, then how can we say God is just?
I suppose we cannot!
How can we say, both those students who make an effort, are given the same as those students that do not make any effort? Then this would be meaningless.
Likewise how can we say, those who make an effort to clean the impurity of their heart are given the same understanding as the ones who do not make an effort?
Therefore, He has established ways of Testing, so that everyone may be given an understanding according to the purity of their heart. For if there was no Tests, how could they be separated? How could those who make an effort for the Truth who is Our God, be separated from those who make an effort for their own self?

If we examine the Holy Books of the Past, such as Quran and Bible, the people who were after miracles, were a rejected people. So, He said "is it not enough that we sent down the Book?"

When the Prophet of their People left the World, the people are Tested by His Book.
The people who are after miracles, they see the symbolic Terms as miracles. These are the same people that if they lived at the time of Prophet, would have asked Him miracles. These are the people, whose hearts are not after God, but the miracles. They use their imaginations, to see the symbolic terms as Miracles.
But the people of reality, are after the Truth, not miracles.

You see how God tests us?

For if, there was no Tests after the Prophet leaves, how can we say, God treated both who lived at the time of Prophet and later equally?


By the term 'heart' I suppose it is meant the power of understanding of the Soul. A Soul that has not become pure and clean, it would be as Dead. So upon separation from the body, it remains as Dead. The so called Hell. The Prophets called them Dead, because they have eyes, they cannot see, they have ears, they cannot hear, and they have heart with which they cannot understand.
By the expression of 'cleaning the heart', it is meant, to clean it from love and hate, worldy desires and vein imaginations, so that the heart can search only after the True Friend, and all else beside, is removed from the heart. I suppose, this is the meaning of the verse of Quran "those who make an effort for Us, in our ways, shall we Guide him".
But who and where is God? He is the One who Promised to appear on the Day of Resurrection, did He not?

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 12-04-2015 at 11:56 AM.
 
Old 12-04-2015, 10:51 AM   #18
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Hi Friend.

I take it that your answer to my question (post 13) is 'No'.

Nothing more to be said. Time for coffee and biscuits.

Have a great weekend, and very best regards.

Paul
Paul - I am more prone to believe that every verse of scripture has 70 and One meanings and which at least one has a material fulfillment or explanation.

Anything is possible and I can not say what will be, but to say there is indeed an event in the future that will have a big impact on humanity.

From a Spiritual perspective it Could be that the dawn of the Sun Rising from the West is already perceivable. The Holy land has always Persecuted and Killed its Messengers, the future may have one rising in the West. Even now as the East still attempts to surpress the Light, it is building in brightness from the West.

Peace be with you regards Tony
 
Old 12-04-2015, 12:54 PM   #19
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A sunrise is usually the rise of the devine revelation. That way it may be wierd, because Bahaullah was manifested north of arabia.

But if you look at it in another sense, the faith really has risen in the west. Bahaullahs values are not really manifest in the east. While they are hugely manifest in the west (Democracy, equality of women, peace between religions, strife for peace, unity of nations etc)

That way, even though Bahaullah was manifest in persia, the sun of Bahaullah is shining stronger in the western world.

But this is a bit of a wierd way to explain the hadith and I can understand how people cant believe it.


(Interestingly there is a hadith that is used to criticize Muhammad, it goes like that:
"After the sun sets, it waits under Allahs throne, until it gets permission to rise from another point."

I never knew how Muhammad could have said such a "stupid" thing but This makes so much sense if we know that the sun is devine Manifestation)

Last edited by save; 12-04-2015 at 01:02 PM.
 
Old 12-04-2015, 01:53 PM   #20
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I remember Shoghi Effendi had interpreted it, as how the west was changed.

I also remember another interpretation.

By 'west' is meant the point of Sun Set.

The Sun of Islam had set, and the Sun of Baha'I Revelation was risen from Islam.
 
Old 12-04-2015, 04:36 PM   #21
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Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:
“Be nice to each other, do kindness to one another, and have compassion to one another. I swear by the One Who split the seed and created the people, a time will come to you when no one of you will find a place for his dinar and dirham to spend, for the lack of need of all the people with the blessing of Allah and the blessing of his Wali” I asked: “When will that happen?”
He said: “This will happen when you miss your Imam and you will continue to remain in that state until he rises over you the way the sun rises. Wherever you may be, beware of doubt and suspicion! Reject doubts from your hearts. You have been warned so abstain. I beseech Allah for your success and your guidance.”





It is narrated through his chains from Salim Abu Khadija from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that a person was asking some questions and the Imam was explaining to him: that man asked:
“After the Morning Prayers, I recite the obligatory devotions and then I like to go sleep before sunrise, although it not something that I should do.”
“Why is that?” asked the Imam.
He replied: “Perhaps the sun might rise from another direction.”
Imam (a.s.) said: “There is no problem. The sun always rises from the same direction. Once you have recited the devotions, there is no problem if you go to sleep.”

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 12-04-2015 at 05:01 PM.
 
Old 12-05-2015, 05:34 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
that thing you said about reversal in magnetic fields of earth is very interesting Paul; I would like to think about and consider that
but there is one thing I would like to ask you. let's say that you are right. I mean when it is said that someday Sun will rise from west and go to east, then it is scientifically possible. I am sure you can find good scientific reasons and explanations for many other signs as well. am I not right? then we have read in Quran and in all other sacred book that in that day, day of Resurrection, many people will stand against Qaim. they cannot believe in Him. they will say that He cannot be Qaim and will finally kill him etc. now if those signs are going to be physically true, and if they will outwardly and clearly happen they how can people (logically) deny Qaim? seeing those many strange sings, all fulfilled, all of them, can anyone then deny Qaim?!!!
Hello Maryam,

Many thanks for your reply.

The geomagnetic reversal of the Earth’s magnetic field, such that the positions of magnetic north and magnetic south are interchanged, is an established fact. As you know, the four cardinal points of a compass are North, East, South and West (reading clockwise). The needle of a compass always points towards the cardinal point ‘North’ (magnetic north). At present, magnetic north lies over the Arctic; and so the sun - appearing to move in a clockwise direction - rises from the cardinal point ‘East’.

A geomagnetic reversal will switch magnetic north from its current location to the Antarctic (the current South Pole). The compass needle will, of course, still point to magnetic north, only this time the Antarctic will be its ‘target’ (so to speak). The cardinal points will still read North, East, South and West (reading clockwise). This means that the sun - still appearing to move in a clockwise direction (its apparent direction of motion never changes) - will rise from the cardinal point ‘West’. In short, the sun will rise from the West.

You ask if I can ‘find good scientific reasons and explanations for many other signs as well.’ I assume you are referring to those that will precede the Day of Judgement (‘Yawm ad-Dīn’). The absence of these signs can be confirmed by simple observation: Medina has not yet been desert d; the Ka’aba is still intact. The Noble Qur’an is not yet forgotten; and Islamic knowledge is still with us (and the Sun is still rising from the East! ). Christians and Muslims say that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) has not yet returned. When he does, his presence will be obvious to all - scientist and non-scientist alike. Those who have yet to believe in him - or in the Qaim - will be convinced by their own eyes.

The article I referred to in a previous post (‘A Baha’i Approach to the Claim of Finality in Islam’ by the Bahia’s Seena Fazel and Khazeh Fananapazir’) states: ‘(That) Baha’u’llah is the fulfilment of the Qur'ánic eschatology.’ The Muslim argument (my argument) is that he is not; and for the reasons I have given. All that can safely be said is that he is the fulfilment of Baha’i eschatology; and that is a different matter altogether.

Have a great weekend, and very best regards.

Paul.

Last edited by Niblo; 12-05-2015 at 05:38 AM.
 
Old 12-05-2015, 05:37 AM   #23
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Anything is possible and I can not say what will be, but to say there is indeed an event in the future that will have a big impact on humanity.
Hello Tony.

I trust this finds you well and happy.

As you say, there are big things coming.

Have a great weekend, and very best regards,

Paul
 
Old 12-05-2015, 05:52 AM   #24
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Hello Tony.

I trust this finds you well and happy.

As you say, there are big things coming.

Have a great weekend, and very best regards,

Paul
Or, as you put it in God's own language: Cynt y cyferfydd dau ddyn na dau fynydd.

Best

from

gnat
 
Old 12-05-2015, 09:25 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hello Maryam,

Many thanks for your reply.

The geomagnetic reversal of the Earth’s magnetic field, such that the positions of magnetic north and magnetic south are interchanged, is an established fact. As you know, the four cardinal points of a compass are North, East, South and West (reading clockwise). The needle of a compass always points towards the cardinal point ‘North’ (magnetic north). At present, magnetic north lies over the Arctic; and so the sun - appearing to move in a clockwise direction - rises from the cardinal point ‘East’.

A geomagnetic reversal will switch magnetic north from its current location to the Antarctic (the current South Pole). The compass needle will, of course, still point to magnetic north, only this time the Antarctic will be its ‘target’ (so to speak). The cardinal points will still read North, East, South and West (reading clockwise). This means that the sun - still appearing to move in a clockwise direction (its apparent direction of motion never changes) - will rise from the cardinal point ‘West’. In short, the sun will rise from the West.

You ask if I can ‘find good scientific reasons and explanations for many other signs as well.’ I assume you are referring to those that will precede the Day of Judgement (‘Yawm ad-Dīn’). The absence of these signs can be confirmed by simple observation: Medina has not yet been desert d; the Ka’aba is still intact. The Noble Qur’an is not yet forgotten; and Islamic knowledge is still with us (and the Sun is still rising from the East! ). Christians and Muslims say that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) has not yet returned. When he does, his presence will be obvious to all - scientist and non-scientist alike. Those who have yet to believe in him - or in the Qaim - will be convinced by their own eyes.

The article I referred to in a previous post (‘A Baha’i Approach to the Claim of Finality in Islam’ by the Bahia’s Seena Fazel and Khazeh Fananapazir’) states: ‘(That) Baha’u’llah is the fulfilment of the Qur'ánic eschatology.’ The Muslim argument (my argument) is that he is not; and for the reasons I have given. All that can safely be said is that he is the fulfilment of Baha’i eschatology; and that is a different matter altogether.

Have a great weekend, and very best regards.

Paul.
thank you Paul for your kind answer. but you have not yet answered the second part of what I asked "then we have read in Quran and in all other sacred books that in that day, day of Resurrection, many people will stand against Qaim. they cannot believe in Him. they will say that He cannot be Qaim and will finally kill him etc. now if those signs are going to be physically true, and if they will outwardly and clearly happen they how can people (logically) deny Qaim? seeing those many strange sings, all fulfilled, all of them, can anyone then deny Qaim?!!!"
I hope you have time to answer me
 
Old 12-05-2015, 09:58 AM   #26
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This is also interesting story and explanation by Baha'u'llah:

"And it came to pass that on a certain day a needy man came to visit this Soul, craving for the ocean of His knowledge. While conversing with him, mention was made concerning the signs of the Day of Judgment, Resurrection, Revival, and Reckoning. He urged Us to explain how, in this wondrous Dispensation, the peoples of the world were brought to a reckoning, when none were made aware of it. Thereupon, We imparted unto him, according to the measure of his capacity and understanding, certain truths of Science and ancient Wisdom. We then asked him saying: “Hast thou not read the Qur’án, and art thou not aware of this blessed verse: ‘On that day shall neither man nor spirit be asked of his sin’?127 Dost thou not realize that by ‘asking’ is not meant asking by tongue or
speech, even as the verse itself doth indicate and prove? For afterward it is said: ‘By their countenance shall the sinners be known, and they shall be seized by their forelocks and their feet.’”128
Thus the peoples of the world are judged by their countenance. By it, their misbelief, their faith, and their iniquity are all made manifest. Even as it is evident in this day how the people of error are, by their countenance, known and distinguished from the followers of divine Guidance. Were these people, wholly for the sake of God and with no desire but His good-pleasure, to ponder the verses of the Book in their heart, they would of a certainty find whatsoever they seek. In its verses would they find revealed and manifest all the things, be they great or small, that have come to pass in this Dispensation. They would even recognize in them references unto the departure of the Manifestations of the names and attributes of God from out their native land; to the opposition and disdainful arrogance of government and people; and to the dwelling and establishment of the Universal Manifestation in an appointed and specially designated land. No man, however, can comprehend this except he who is possessed of an understanding heart."

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 12-05-2015 at 10:00 AM.
 
Old 12-05-2015, 10:32 AM   #27
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Hello Tony.

I trust this finds you well and happy.

As you say, there are big things coming.

Have a great weekend, and very best regards,

Paul
Dear Paul

What I have found is The biggest struggle is Self. What else happens is a picnic compared to the battle of Self.

Paul, all the promises of the Return of scriptures past have been fulfilled. Much the same as Muhummad came, but Biblically the Christians refused to see that great message, mainly because all the signs they wait for were not fulfilled, the Jews also still wait.

Thus God has tested His Servants since the beginning that has no beginning to the end that has no end.

In the end it is but our own selves that reject what is always from God. Even when we say we believe we continue to be ignorant of the greatness of Gods Causes.

Regards Tony
 
Old 12-07-2015, 04:21 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
thank you Paul for your kind answer. but you have not yet answered the second part of what I asked "then we have read in Quran and in all other sacred books that in that day, day of Resurrection, many people will stand against Qaim. they cannot believe in Him. they will say that He cannot be Qaim and will finally kill him etc. now if those signs are going to be physically true, and if they will outwardly and clearly happen they how can people (logically) deny Qaim? seeing those many strange sings, all fulfilled, all of them, can anyone then deny Qaim?!!!"
I hope you have time to answer me
Hello Maryam,

I find this subject very difficult to deal with, in that there are so many ways to interpret End Day writings. Plenty of scope for a fertile imagination to run riot!

There is no mention of the Qaim (Mahdi) in the Qur’an, nor in the aHadith collections of Bukhari and Muslim. According to aHadith from other sources (both Sunni and Shia) the Qaim will be a Rightly-Guided Caliph, and leader of the world’s Muslims. He will not be a prophet. As you know, some claim that he is already with us; some that he has yet to come. Perhaps the wisest course of action is to accept that he will appear before the Day of Judgment, but exactly when, only Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) knows.

The Qaim will be involved with three conflicts, and under his caliphate there will be a great Islamic revival; with unity restored to the Muslims. During his caliphate, the Messiah - Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) - will descend from Heaven and will slay the Dajjal, along with his followers. Islam will become the only religion; and the Qaim, with Yeshua, will rule the whole world with equity and justice for seven (some say five or nine) years thereafter, during which peace will prevail.

The Qaim will die before the Day of Judgement (also known as the Day of Resurrection) - as will Yeshua - and so there is no question of him being attacked or killed on that Day.

This is best answer I can give, using the sources available to me.

Have a good day, and very best regards,

Paul.
 
Old 12-07-2015, 04:29 AM   #29
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Or, as you put it in God's own language: Cynt y cyferfydd dau ddyn na dau fynydd.

Best

from

gnat
Wel yn wir i daioni!
 
Old 12-07-2015, 06:22 AM   #30
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Hello Maryam,

I find this subject very difficult to deal with, in that there are so many ways to interpret End Day writings. Plenty of scope for a fertile imagination to run riot!

There is no mention of the Qaim (Mahdi) in the Qur’an, nor in the aHadith collections of Bukhari and Muslim. According to aHadith from other sources (both Sunni and Shia) the Qaim will be a Rightly-Guided Caliph, and leader of the world’s Muslims. He will not be a prophet. As you know, some claim that he is already with us; some that he has yet to come. Perhaps the wisest course of action is to accept that he will appear before the Day of Judgment, but exactly when, only Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) knows.

The Qaim will be involved with three conflicts, and under his caliphate there will be a great Islamic revival; with unity restored to the Muslims. During his caliphate, the Messiah - Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) - will descend from Heaven and will slay the Dajjal, along with his followers. Islam will become the only religion; and the Qaim, with Yeshua, will rule the whole world with equity and justice for seven (some say five or nine) years thereafter, during which peace will prevail.

The Qaim will die before the Day of Judgement (also known as the Day of Resurrection) - as will Yeshua - and so there is no question of him being attacked or killed on that Day.

This is best answer I can give, using the sources available to me.

Have a good day, and very best regards,

Paul.
Paul - One word - Kitab-i-iquan

Regards Tony.
 
Old 12-07-2015, 07:29 AM   #31
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Paul - One word - Kitab-i-iquan

Regards Tony.
Hi Tony,

Thank you. I have this particular work.

‘Twelve hundred and eighty years have passed since the dawn of the Muhammadan Dispensation, and with every break of day, these blind and ignoble people have recited their Qur’án, and yet have failed to grasp one letter of that Book!’ (Part 2. Page 99).

I count myself privileged to be one of the ‘blind and ignoble people’ spoken of here. I’m in excellent company. It includes: Moulay Ali Ben Moussa Ben Rached El Alami; ʻAbd al-Salām ibn Mashīsh al-ʻAlamī; Idris al-Azhar ibn Idris (Idris II of Morocco); Idris ibn Abdullah (Idris I of Morocco); Abdullah al-Kamil; Hasan ibn `Ali ibn Abi Ṭalib; `Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib and Fâṭimah bint Muhammad; and, of course, Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim (the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam). They are grandparents of three of my grandchildren; and may Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) bless and reward each of them for the great, and noble, work they did on His behalf. And may He forgive all who slander or libel them.

Have a great day.

Paul

Last edited by Niblo; 12-07-2015 at 07:37 AM.
 
Old 12-07-2015, 07:42 AM   #32
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Hi Tony,

Thank you. I have this particular work.

‘Twelve hundred and eighty years have passed since the dawn of the Muhammadan Dispensation, and with every break of day, these blind and ignoble people have recited their Qur’án, and yet have failed to grasp one letter of that Book!’ (Part 2. Page 99).

I count myself privileged to be one of the ‘blind and ignoble people’ spoken of here. I’m in excellent company. It includes: Moulay Ali Ben Moussa Ben Rached El Alami; ʻAbd al-Salām ibn Mashīsh al-ʻAlamī; Idris al-Azhar ibn Idris (Idris II of Morocco); Idris ibn Abdullah (Idris I of Morocco); Abdullah al-Kamil; Hasan ibn `Ali ibn Abi Ṭalib; `Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib and Fâṭimah bint Muhammad; and, of course, Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim (the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam). They are grandparents of three of my grandchildren; and may Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) bless and reward each of them for the great, and noble, work they did on His behalf. And may He forgive all who slander or libel them.

Have a great day.

Paul
Mr. Paul,

With the same Words, the Quran had rebuked Christian and Jewish people for their ignorence and false interpretations. Perhaps you want to say, God bless them for distorting the Holy Books of the past as well!.
 
Old 12-07-2015, 07:48 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
thank you Paul for your kind answer. but you have not yet answered the second part of what I asked "then we have read in Quran and in all other sacred books that in that day, day of Resurrection, many people will stand against Qaim. they cannot believe in Him. they will say that He cannot be Qaim and will finally kill him etc. now if those signs are going to be physically true, and if they will outwardly and clearly happen they how can people (logically) deny Qaim? seeing those many strange sings, all fulfilled, all of them, can anyone then deny Qaim?!!!"
I hope you have time to answer me
Dear Maryam,

Paul and other Sunni friends do not believe or trust the hadithes in Shia Texts.
The term 'Qaim' is mostly from Shia Texts.

However, in Quran, there are verses that even when the Day of Resurrection come, the unbelievers are still unaware and still they deny and curse each other. I suppose for Sunni friends, it can be asked to clear for us, how can all those extraordinary signs come to pass and still the unbelievers be unaware.

There are also Sahih hadithes from Sunni sources that say, on that Day, God comes to them, but they do not recognize God! There many hadithes like this.

From my experience, they ignore these when they are told about them.
As Paul says, it is a difficault subject to deal with.
 
Old 12-07-2015, 07:49 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Mr. Paul,

With the same Words, the Quran had rebuked Christian and Jewish people for their ignorence and false interpretations. Perhaps you want to say, God bless them for distorting the Holy Books of the past as well!.
It was Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) who gave that rebuke. If you disagree with Him then take it up with Him.
 
Old 12-07-2015, 08:06 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Dear Maryam,

Paul and other Sunni friends do not believe or trust the hadithes in Shia Texts.
Hi,

Please do not presume to speak for me. It is not that I disbelieve, or distrust, Shia aHadith, it is that I have less knowledge of them.

Have a nice day.

Paul
 
Old 12-07-2015, 08:24 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
It was Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) who gave that rebuke. If you disagree with Him then take it up with Him.
Baha is the Greatest Name of Allah, by the way. So no problem there.

Once I was discussing this with a Sunni.
I told him, Baha is the Greatest Name of Allah which is the 100th Name. In Quran 99 names of Allah is mentioned. The 100th one is hidden. But in some Hadithes it is alluded that this Name is Baha.
He told me which Hadith, I never heard. I found the Hadith for him, from Shia sources. He said these are Shia Sources, I cannot trust. Then I found it in Sunni sources. He never came back to discuss. Just saying my experiences. But, I suppose we cannot say everyone is the same.
 
Old 12-07-2015, 09:23 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Baha is the Greatest Name of Allah, by the way.
Then I found it in Sunni sources. He never came back to discuss. Just saying my experiences. But, I suppose we cannot say everyone is the same.
Feel free to reference your source. I am more than happy to discuss it.
 
Old 12-07-2015, 09:40 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post

However, in Quran, there are verses that even when the Day of Resurrection come, the unbelievers are still unaware and still they deny and curse each other. I suppose for Sunni friends, it can be asked to clear for us, how can all those extraordinary signs come to pass and still the unbelievers be unaware.
yes, sooo true. that is the question I asked Paul but I guess he has forgotten to answer me
 
Old 12-07-2015, 10:03 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Feel free to reference your source. I am more than happy to discuss it.
Dear Paul,

When I get some time, God willing I will find them and quote them.
But what difference does it make really?

Suppose, the Bible says, when Jesus returns, He comes with a new name, which is the Name of God. Suppose the hadithes says, Baha is the greatest name of God. Suppose a hadith says, their given names are Muhammad and Hussein. Suppose Hadithes says, Christ Rules for 40 years, and Mahdi for 7 years. Suppose, Hadithes and Bible says, the Promised one is from Persia. Suppose Hadithes says, Akka the city in Palastine haas significant importence on the Day of Resurrection. Suppose the hadithes says the End of People of Muhammad comes in 1000 years. Suppose Bible refers to year 1260 as the time of the End.....so on and on and on.

Suppose all of this match with the Bab and Baha.
What difference does it make?
There is a Hadith that says, when Mahdi appeares, They say: it is plain sorcery!
 
Old 12-07-2015, 10:05 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by maryamr View Post
yes, sooo true. that is the question I asked Paul but I guess he has forgotten to answer me
Try reading post 28.......including your quoted question
 
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