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Old 01-08-2017, 10:09 PM   #1
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Why Has thou Forsaken Me

This thread wishes to explore this Statement by Christ at His Crucifixion and how it also reflects the Questions asked by Baha'u'llah in the Fire Tablet.

In the light of the Sun and Mirror analogy of the Manifestations of God, this statement was made on a forum post;

"I still fail to see how a perfect mirror could question the object that creates the reflection. It doesn't sound to me like he was aware of God's will or intentions if he thought God had abandoned him".

This appears to be a question asked and we have an unpublished Pilgrim Note of May & Mary Maxwell "Haifa Notes of Shoghi Effendi's Words, Jan, Feb, Mar 1937" that reports the Guardian has said;

"Christ's Words: "Why has Thou Forsaken Me"? Baha'u'llah says Jesus was overwhelmed and the human element in Him became impatient. Jesus had His moments of fear and agitation; and the human element is always there in a Prophet".

This Paper explores this question - http://hurqalya.ucmerced.edu/sites/h...-1_lambden.pdf

Abdul'Baha has given a tablet that contains this;

"...Remind them of these words and say unto them: ‘Verily did the Pharisees rise up against Messiah, despite the bright beauty of His face and all His comeliness, and they cried out that He was not Messiah [Masíh] but a monster [Masíkh], because He had claimed to be Almighty God, the sovereign Lord of all, and told them, ‘I am God’s Son, and verily in the inmost being of His only Son, His mighty Ward, clearly revealed with all His attributes, all His perfections, standeth the Father.’ This, they said, was open blasphemy and slander against the Lord according to the clear and irrefutable texts of the Old Testament. Therefore they passed the sentence upon Him, decreeing that His blood be shed, and they hanged Him on the cross, where He cried out,O My beloved Lord, how long wilt Thou abandon Me to them? Lift Me up unto Thee, shelter Me close to Thee, make Me a dwelling by Thy throne of glory. Verily art Thou the Answerer of prayers, and Thou art the Clement, the Merciful. O My Lord! Verily this world with all its vastness can no longer contain Me, and I love this cross, out of love for Thy beauty, and yearning for Thy realm on high, and because of this fire, fanned by the gusts of Thy holiness, aflame within My heart. Help me, O Lord, to ascend unto Thee, sustain Me that I may reach unto Thy sacred Threshold, O My loving Lord! Verily Thou art the Merciful, the Possessor of great bounty! Verily Thou art the Generous! Verily Thou art the Compassionate! Verily Thou art the All-Knowing! There is none other God save Thee, the Mighty, the Powerful!"

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAB/sab-20.html

Now that changed the event into a Prayer from Christ.

Now, I am yet to find this clear enough to explain

Please offer thoughts.

Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 01-08-2017 at 10:34 PM.
 
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Old 01-09-2017, 04:55 AM   #2
Minor Bloodsucker
 
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Yes, that is Abdu'l-Bahá's Prayer of Christ. I'd say that it is kind of the same thing as good poetry or opera, where a single moment is extended into a large mass of text. Abdu'l-Bahá was able catch the essence of the moment and turn it into words.

I think that essentially we are dealing with an essence beyond words.

Remember the saying that all the suris of the Koran are contained in its first suri, and the first suri is contained in its first (primal) point. And the Báb was the Primal Point, thus in Himself containing the whole of the essence of the Koran.

Best

from

gnat
 
Old 01-10-2017, 12:40 PM   #3
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In speaking with a Christian one day he gave what I thought a good explanation. As he said this quote of Christ is in Psalms and as he said those Jews who knew their Bible would have recognized it, and hopefully would make them think.
But of course it is something we will not be positive about so I will not worry myself too much.
But what you have said here Tony is interesting.
Love to all Bill
 
Old 01-10-2017, 01:35 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
In speaking with a Christian one day he gave what I thought a good explanation. As he said this quote of Christ is in Psalms and as he said those Jews who knew their Bible would have recognized it, and hopefully would make them think.
But of course it is something we will not be positive about so I will not worry myself too much.
But what you have said here Tony is interesting.
Love to all Bill
Good catch!! Full quote from Psalms if anyone is interested:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psalm 22
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.

Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.

In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.

To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.

But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.

All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,

“Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”

Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.

Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.

Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.

Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.

They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.

I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.

My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.

For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.

I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;

They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.

But You, O LORD, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.

Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.

Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.

I will tell of Your name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.

You who fear the LORD, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.

For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.

From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.

The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the LORD.
Let your heart live forever!

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.

For the kingdom is the LORD’S
And He rules over the nations.

All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.

Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.

They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.
^ The above is pretty similar to Abdu'l-Baha's explanation, that the "forsakened me" line was merely one part of a prayer.

Quote:
"Christ's Words: "Why has Thou Forsaken Me"? Baha'u'llah says Jesus was overwhelmed and the human element in Him became impatient. Jesus had His moments of fear and agitation; and the human element is always there in a Prophet".
It bears in mind that this is not the only time that Jesus did something like this. He is also recorded to have cursed a fig tree when he was hungry and looked to it for food, only to find it barren.

So with what Shoghi Effendi and Abdu'l-Baha say in combination with the fact it is a quote of a well-noted Psalm:

It would seem Jesus was in a moment of humanity calling out for God's name quoting a common prayer/psalm that invokes God's aid against adversary.
 
Old 01-11-2017, 11:16 PM   #5
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
In speaking with a Christian one day he gave what I thought a good explanation. As he said this quote of Christ is in Psalms and as he said those Jews who knew their Bible would have recognized it, and hopefully would make them think.
But of course it is something we will not be positive about so I will not worry myself too much.
But what you have said here Tony is interesting.
Love to all Bill
Thank you Bill, that is good information and has got many thoughts to consider. I would agree that this is a place to further consider an answer to the question asked.

Hope you are Happy and full of Joy, also hope you have the opportunity to see the Temple. Kam made it over there.

Regards Tony
 
Old 01-11-2017, 11:28 PM   #6
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
It would seem Jesus was in a moment of humanity calling out for God's name quoting a common prayer/psalm that invokes God's aid against adversary.
That is what seems to be unfolding with this search.

Thus with the original obserbation of "I still fail to see how a perfect mirror could question the object that creates the reflection. It doesn't sound to me like he was aware of God's will or intentions if he thought God had abandoned him".

Thus sill contemplating how we explain this using the Sun and the Mirror explanation.

Is there times of clouds for the Messengers? Or more likely are these moments, Clouds for us to penertrate?

Regards Tony
 
Old 01-12-2017, 05:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
Thus sill contemplating how we explain this using the Sun and the Mirror explanation.
Then sticking just to metaphor: even the most perfect mirror in the whole of the universe can still only show you a two-dimensional image of the sun. (I'm saying a mirror, by design, regardless of the level of perfection in its function, is incapable of showing you a perfect view of the sun, in case that was not clear)

Last edited by Walrus; 01-12-2017 at 05:56 AM.
 
Old 01-12-2017, 05:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
Thus sill contemplating how we explain this using the Sun and the Mirror explanation.
Another random thought while using the Sun/Mirror explanation:

Even if it does the best job at reflecting the sun that a mirror could do, the mirror is still a mirror. It, while reflecting the properties of the sun, still retains the qualities of a mirror, IE, being hard, flat, smooth, etc.

If we flip that out of metaphor-speak, we then can also say that even if he does the best job at reflecting God that any human can do, the prophet is still a human. He, while reflecting the properties of God, still retains the properties of a human, IE, humanity.
 
Old 01-12-2017, 06:06 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
"It doesn't sound to me like he was aware of God's will or intentions if he thought God had abandoned him"
Also, not necessarily. He's directly quoting David's writings in Psalms. I'm fairly certain David is a minor prophet. Jesus quoted the minor prophets quite a bit, to make various points. He quotes David, who in Psalms is unsure if God has or has not abandoned him in that passage, but David goes on to profess trust in God anyway in that particular Psalm.

It's not a statement of Jesus' own, but his quote of another person's. That's important to consider.
 
Old 01-12-2017, 09:51 AM   #10
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David... among more exalted manifestations...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Also, not necessarily. He's directly quoting David's writings in Psalms. I'm fairly certain David is a minor prophet. Jesus quoted the minor prophets quite a bit, to make various points. He quotes David, who in Psalms is unsure if God has or has not abandoned him in that passage, but David goes on to profess trust in God anyway in that particular Psalm.

It's not a statement of Jesus' own, but his quote of another person's. That's important to consider.
. "None of the many Prophets sent down, since Moses was made manifest, as Messengers of the Word of God, such as David, Jesus, and others among the more exalted Manifestations who have appeared during the intervening period between the Revelations of Moses and Muḥammad, ever altered the law of the Qiblih." . Kitab-i-Iqan p 51

. ... "others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah... " . . Some Answered Questions p 164
 
Old 01-12-2017, 10:45 AM   #11
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Also, not necessarily. He's directly quoting David's writings in Psalms. I'm fairly certain David is a minor prophet. Jesus quoted the minor prophets quite a bit, to make various points. He quotes David, who in Psalms is unsure if God has or has not abandoned him in that passage, but David goes on to profess trust in God anyway in that particular Psalm.

It's not a statement of Jesus' own, but his quote of another person's. That's important to consider.
Now we add the Fire Tablet into the picture

Personally I see the Humanity aspect of a Manifestation as not being an Issue...to me this adds to the Power of the Word being aware of the trials and tribulations they faced.

The Poster asked a question I had not previously considered and when researching found it has been a question that has not been given a clear answer.

I am hesitant to say in any way that a Manifestation was not aware of anything, I am also sure that when they are asking God the questions like this one of Christs or as in the Fire Tablet of Baha'u'llah, that there is no lack of knowledge as to the answer.

How to consider this must be enshrined within the last part of the Fire Tablet;

"Verily, I have heard Thy Call, O All-Glorious Beloved; and now is the face of Bahá flaming with the heat of tribulation and with the fire of Thy shining word, and He hath risen up in faithfulness at the place of sacrifice, looking toward Thy pleasure, O Ordainer of the worlds.
O ‘Alí-Akbar, thank thy Lord for this Tablet whence thou canst breathe the fragrance of My meekness, and know what hath beset Us in the path of God, the Adored of all the worlds.
Should all the servants read and ponder this, there shall be kindled in their veins a fire that shall set aflame the worlds".

Well for me, back to more contemplation

Regards Tony
 
Old 01-12-2017, 11:00 AM   #12
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Then sticking just to metaphor: even the most perfect mirror in the whole of the universe can still only show you a two-dimensional image of the sun. (I'm saying a mirror, by design, regardless of the level of perfection in its function, is incapable of showing you a perfect view of the sun, in case that was not clear)
We are aware that the Essence of God Can not be Known, the door being shut even to the Manifestations.

The key to this I guess is what is the wisdom of the Fire Tablet contained in the last verse we were asked to Meditate upon, as I posted in the reply above.

It could be with these questions they are showing us how to come to terms with our Humanity, to me they are fully aware and the questions asked were for us and not them. Armed with this thought we can begin to appreciate their meekness and sacrafices.

Regards Tony
 
Old 01-13-2017, 01:30 PM   #13
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Thank you dear Tony, I get weaker daily, but still God does not release me, lived such a bad life I guess, smile
Thank you Walrus for quoting in full for me too weak I am.
Loving blessings to all my brothers and sisters.
bill
 
Old 01-13-2017, 06:08 PM   #14
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Thank you dear Tony, I get weaker daily, but still God does not release me, lived such a bad life I guess, smile
Thank you Walrus for quoting in full for me too weak I am.
Loving blessings to all my brothers and sisters.
bill
Stay strong in Spirit and you always have our prayers Bill.

May God grant your flight when the time is just right,
while we are still here, our path to walk has been made clear,
Read, Pray and unto others with a question do say,
have you heard of Baha'u'llah, in this mighty, this most great Day?

Be happy Bill, there is always a reason that God keeps us in the Material World or takes us from it, when we are given a gift so precious.

Love from Annette and I.
 
Old 01-14-2017, 12:03 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Thank you dear Tony, I get weaker daily, but still God does not release me, lived such a bad life I guess, smile
Thank you Walrus for quoting in full for me too weak I am.
Loving blessings to all my brothers and sisters.
bill
Dear Bill,

Your words are so touching. You are with me in my prayers.

gnat
 
Old 01-14-2017, 11:03 AM   #16
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love to all

thank you Tony and gnat.
Tony what of that address
bill
 
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