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Old 01-28-2018, 11:33 AM   #1
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Was Jesus' death on the cross a sin offering or Not?

What is the official Baha'i interpretation of Jesus' death on the cross? I was curious about Baha'is theology about this. Can someone please explain this to me

Last edited by joey473; 01-28-2018 at 02:17 PM.
 
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Old 01-28-2018, 01:46 PM   #2
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I found the Bahai interpretation about Jesus Christ on Bahai.org.

In addition to discussing Jesus Christ in general terms, and in terms of the Trinity, the Bahá'í writings discuss Jesus Himself. Jesus' death on the cross is recognised as an atonement for humanity (God Passes By, 188; Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bahá Abbas, 543). Bahá'u'lláh describes Jesus' impact on the world in very specific terms:
Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole of Creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent spirit . . . He it is who purified the world. Blessed the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him. (Gleanings 86)

Bahá'u'lláh states that while all the Manifestations of God hold an equal spiritual station, they are not equal in terms of the intensity and potency of their revelations (Kitáb-i-Íqán 104). The above quotation suggests that Jesus Christ, the Manifestation who founded what is today the largest religious community on the planet, had a unique impact on human history; an impact that perhaps was greater than that of any other Manifestation before Bahá'u'lláh.
 
Old 01-28-2018, 01:48 PM   #3
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I think I was misunderstanding Baha'i interpretation. I'm new to the Baha'i faith and am just learning. The Baha'i faith has there own interpretations and I need to learn them all. I get confused a lot because I am new to the faith and am learning it.
 
Old 01-28-2018, 01:53 PM   #4
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I found more on the essence of the manifestations of God:

Two philosophical terms might be useful to clarify the twofold station of the Manifestations that Bahá'u'lláh describes. One is ontology, 'the science or study of being' (Oxford English Dictionary). Ontology pertains to the nature or essence of things. The other term is epistemology, 'the theory or science of the method or grounds of knowledge' (Oxford English Dictionary). Epistemology pertains to what we can know about things. What we can know about a thing is not necessarily identical to the thing itself.

One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9).


Bahá'u'lláh uses the concept of the twofold station to explain seemingly contradictory statements in the Qur'án and hadith about Muhammad:
The first station, which is related to His [the Manifestations] innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testified the tradition: 'Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is. And in like manner, the words: 'Arise, O Muhammad, for the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee. He similarly saith: 'There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee [God] and Them [the Manifestations], except that They are Thy servants. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: 'I am but a man like you. 'Say praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle? (Gleanings 66-67).
 
Old 01-28-2018, 02:00 PM   #5
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So I guess that Baha'is do believe in the atonement according to my research on Bahia.org.

the Bahá'í writings discuss Jesus Himself. Jesus' death on the cross is recognised as an atonement for humanity (God Passes By, 188; Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bahá Abbas, 543

Looks like I got the answer to my question. Someone told me that Baha'is don't believe in Jesus' death on the cross as an atoning sacrifice. So I had to look it up myself on Bahai.org to be sure. Lot's of misunderstanding on my part. I just want to understand the Baha'i faith better because I think it's a cool religion.
 
Old 01-28-2018, 02:14 PM   #6
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Found more on Jesus' atonement:

"Christ, Who is the Word of God, sacrificed Himself. This has two meanings, an apparent and an esoteric meaning. The outward meaning is this: Christ’s intention was to represent and promote a Cause which was to educate the human world, to quicken the children of Adam, and to enlighten all mankind; and since to represent such a great Cause—a Cause which was antagonistic to all the people of the world and all the nations and kingdoms—meant that He would be killed and crucified, so Christ in proclaiming His mission sacrificed His life. He regarded the cross as a throne, the wound as a balm, the poison as honey and sugar. He arose to teach and educate men, and so He sacrificed Himself to give the spirit of life. He perished in body so as to quicken others by the spirit.
 
Old 01-29-2018, 01:16 AM   #7
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Good on you my friend, I hope God helps you find what your after
 
Old 01-29-2018, 09:14 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Yousefy2 View Post
Good on you my friend, I hope God helps you find what your after
I understand the Baha'i interpretation now. Baha'is have there own interpretation which is different from the Catholic and Protestant interpretations.
 
Old 01-29-2018, 09:25 AM   #9
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In conclusion, we can see that the concept of atonement, as it is understood in the Bahá'í texts, denies the idea that God requires the payment of a blood sacrifice in order for the forgiveness of sins to be achieved; it rejects belief in the inherent supremacy of Jesus over other religious founders and discards the notion that only Jesus suffered and died for humanity’s sake

After reading this I think I will remain a Christian.
 
Old 01-29-2018, 09:27 AM   #10
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I didn't know anything about this religion. It sounded cool at first. But now it doesn't sound cool at all. I believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of my sins.
 
Old 01-29-2018, 10:54 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by joey473 View Post
In conclusion, we can see that the concept of atonement, as it is understood in the Bahá'í texts, denies the idea that God requires the payment of a blood sacrifice in order for the forgiveness of sins to be achieved; it rejects belief in the inherent supremacy of Jesus over other religious founders and discards the notion that only Jesus suffered and died for humanity’s sake

After reading this I think I will remain a Christian.
If God required Christ to be crucified in order for our sins to be forgiven, that would make Him an unmerciful God.

Last edited by Duane; 01-29-2018 at 02:26 PM.
 
Old 01-29-2018, 11:01 AM   #12
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Indeed, why is death required for salvation? I initially I struggled with the thought of being responsible for the washing away of my own sins, instead of being forgiven for what Christ had experienced. How unfair God would have treated Jesus, if it were the case that he atoned for our sins? God of all beings, the all-merciful and all-loving, would force the death of a person so that peoples sins could be forgiven?

No. We are responsible for our sins. We are the ones who sin, after all. We must take matters into our own hands and right the wrongs we as people may have done. This is not an area I'm extremely experienced with outside of my initial struggle, so my apologies if there's any quotes that go against what I've said.

I wish you the best of luck on your spiritual journey, no matter what religion you find yourself in
 
Old 01-30-2018, 12:58 AM   #13
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I didn't know anything about this religion. It sounded cool at first. But now it doesn't sound cool at all. I believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of my sins.
Christ did indeed die so we could find forgiveness for the sins we commit.

The Bab gave His life so we find our Salvation in the One Whom God would make Manifest. Baha'u'llah.

Baha'ullah faced years of Persecution so that mankind could find true liberty which is submission unto God and His Laws, for the Salvation of all Humanity.

This forgiveness remains in our acceptance of Christ and in following God's Laws and guidance in Word and Deed.

Regards Tony
 
Old 01-30-2018, 03:58 AM   #14
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One place an answer can be found is in the Fire Tablet where a dialog between He who is the Recipient of Revelation and the Voice of God occurs. The Voice of God uttered, “When the swords flash, go forward! When the shafts fly, press onward! O Thou Sacrifice of the worlds.” For a fuller understanding, please see the entire Tablet here: Bahá'à Reference Library - Bahá’à Prayers: A Selection of Prayers Revealed by Bahá’u’lláh, the Báb, and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 214-220

-LR
 
Old 01-31-2018, 12:01 PM   #15
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now what does it really mean to be an atonement for the sins of humanity? I was thinking about this ever since I started studying Bible, because I saw this particular sentence very often in it. then I reached to this part "Letter to the Hebrews" and it is the first time I see a clear explanation about "being an atonement for the sins of humanity". It may be the only time there is that explanation in the Bible. it goes as this:

Therefore because the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner hath been partaker of the same: that, through death, he might destroy him who had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil: 15 And might deliver them, who through the fear of death were all their lifetime subject to servitude. 16 For nowhere doth he take hold of the angels: but of the seed of Abraham he taketh hold.


so in fact Jesus Christ, through His death, delivered people of their fear of death. and what is death in Biblical and religious symbolism? it is sin. so in a way, when Christ died on the cross, He showed the Jews that it is not a sin, not a source of fear, to declare their faith on Jesus even if in the past they believed that the laws of Moses were unchangeable. Jews for example, I saw many many times in Bible, argued about the matter of "Circumcision" and it remained a problem for them and a barrier. they were afraid to take the new laws; they thought only the old laws could save them. Jesus died to show them that their fear was useless and illogical.

with this explanation, do you think, dear Joey, that your fear of death is also cured? do not you fear to let go of the old laws for the new ones? I hope that is the case. I am not saying that you should, but I think to do so is a sign of being delivered from sin through Jesus crucification.
 
Old 02-01-2018, 02:05 AM   #16
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I offer for consideration more words from Bahá’u’lláh, the manifestation of that ancient, divine, and universal Reality - the Primal Will - that cycles in and out of human history to illuminate and educate humankind.

“Praise be to Thee, O Lord My God, for the wondrous revelations of Thy inscrutable decree and the manifold woes and trials Thou hast destined for Myself. At one time Thou didst deliver Me into the hands of Nimrod; at another Thou hast allowed Pharaoh’s rod to persecute Me. Thou, alone, canst estimate, through Thine all-encompassing knowledge and the operation of Thy Will, the incalculable afflictions I have suffered at their hands. Again Thou didst cast Me into the prison-cell of the ungodly, for no reason except that I was moved to whisper into the ears of the well-favored denizens of Thy Kingdom an intimation of the vision with which Thou hadst, through Thy knowledge, inspired Me, and revealed to Me its meaning through the potency of Thy might. And again Thou didst decree that I be beheaded by the sword of the infidel. Again I was crucified for having unveiled to men’s eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity, for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and everlasting power. How bitter the humiliations heaped upon Me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbilá! How lonely did I feel amidst Thy people! To what a state of helplessness I was reduced in that land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, My persecutors decapitated Me, and, carrying aloft My head from land to land paraded it before the gaze of the unbelieving multitude, and deposited it on the seats of the perverse and faithless. In a later age, I was suspended, and My breast was made a target to the darts of the malicious cruelty of My foes. My limbs were riddled with bullets, and My body was torn asunder. Finally, behold how, in this Day, My treacherous enemies have leagued themselves against Me, and are continually plotting to instill the venom of hate and malice into the souls of Thy servants. With all their might they are scheming to accomplish their purpose…. Grievous as is My plight, O God, My Well-Beloved, I render thanks unto Thee, and My Spirit is grateful for whatsoever hath befallen me in the path of Thy good-pleasure. I am well pleased with that which Thou didst ordain for Me, and welcome, however calamitous, the pains and sorrows I am made to suffer.” (Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XXXIX)

-LR
 
Old 05-21-2018, 08:47 AM   #17
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Hello all Bahia's I am back! I decided that I was misunderstanding the Bahia faith and decided to give it another chance. This religion really isn't a bad religion it's pretty good actually. No hell, no everlasting torment. It sounds really good. I was a Christian before joining the Bahai faith. I decided that religion Christianity comes from Rome and I don't believe the Romans. So I will give the Bahai faith a chance. I like this one! I will stay this time.
 
Old 05-21-2018, 12:32 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by joey473 View Post
Hello all Bahia's I am back! I decided that I was misunderstanding the Bahia faith and decided to give it another chance. This religion really isn't a bad religion it's pretty good actually. No hell, no everlasting torment. It sounds really good. I was a Christian before joining the Bahai faith. I decided that religion Christianity comes from Rome and I don't believe the Romans. So I will give the Bahai faith a chance. I like this one! I will stay this time.
I am happy that you decided to stay. It is worth the ride
The Baha'i Faith is not always that easy to understand so we have to take it in increments.
 
Old 05-22-2018, 05:07 AM   #19
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Hello all Bahia's I am back! I decided that I was misunderstanding the Bahia faith and decided to give it another chance. This religion really isn't a bad religion it's pretty good actually. No hell, no everlasting torment. It sounds really good. I was a Christian before joining the Bahai faith. I decided that religion Christianity comes from Rome and I don't believe the Romans. So I will give the Bahai faith a chance. I like this one! I will stay this time.
You are very welcome to participate in the forum regardless of what religion you believe in, but we are certainly happy you are giving The Baha'i Faith a chance. It is truly vast, greater than any of us can represent, and it can take a lifetime and more to fully appreciate.

When I saw your questions back in January, I thought to comment, but didn't have a chance. With regard to the Atonement of Jesus, what I have realized is that we have the ability with this new Revelation to look back and think about what the meaning of atonement is, what is the significance of the sacrifices and offerings that people have made to God over many thousands of years and countless religions. Does God need our sacrifices? I don't think so, God is independent of all things. Rather, we need to make sacrifices, it helps us grow. So how does the sacrifice of Jesus help us grow if it is really us that need to sacrifice ourselves?
 
Old 05-25-2018, 12:01 PM   #20
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If God required Christ to be crucified in order for our sins to be forgiven, that would make Him an unmerciful God.
I decided to join the Bahai faith so I did just recently. I was just misunderstanding Bahai interpretation that is all. I like this religion. I like the concept of this religion better. I like that everyone has a chance to learn and develop spiritually. If you think about it Christ's death was a sacrifice for our spiritual well being. So that we can learn and progress into the afterlife spiritually. I think I have the correct understanding now. I almost remained a Christian. But realized I'd rather be living in the new era than the old one. I eventually came around I just needed to study and develop spiritually.
 
Old 05-25-2018, 12:17 PM   #21
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Found more on Jesus' atonement:

"Christ, Who is the Word of God, sacrificed Himself. This has two meanings, an apparent and an esoteric meaning. The outward meaning is this: Christ’s intention was to represent and promote a Cause which was to educate the human world, to quicken the children of Adam, and to enlighten all mankind; and since to represent such a great Cause—a Cause which was antagonistic to all the people of the world and all the nations and kingdoms—meant that He would be killed and crucified, so Christ in proclaiming His mission sacrificed His life. He regarded the cross as a throne, the wound as a balm, the poison as honey and sugar. He arose to teach and educate men, and so He sacrificed Himself to give the spirit of life. He perished in body so as to quicken others by the spirit.
Jesus' teachings help us to spiritually grow in this world and in the afterlife is how I understand Bahai interpretation now.
 
Old 05-25-2018, 02:39 PM   #22
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In conclusion, we can see that the concept of atonement, as it is understood in the Bahá'í texts, denies the idea that God requires the payment of a blood sacrifice in order for the forgiveness of sins to be achieved; it rejects belief in the inherent supremacy of Jesus over other religious founders and discards the notion that only Jesus suffered and died for humanity’s sake

After reading this I think I will remain a Christian.
I misunderstood this statement! After closer examination of it I decided to become a Bahai!
 
Old 05-25-2018, 04:00 PM   #23
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I didn't know anything about this religion. It sounded cool at first. But now it doesn't sound cool at all. I believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of my sins.
So it looks like I can now retract this statement I made a couple of months ago. Because I think that I was just misunderstanding Bahai interpretation. Now my spiritual journey into the Bahai faith begins...
 
Old 05-25-2018, 08:29 PM   #24
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So it looks like I can now retract this statement I made a couple of months ago. Because I think that I was just misunderstanding Bahai interpretation. Now my spiritual journey into the Bahai faith begins...
It is one of constant discovery of ebb and flow.

You will enjoy your journey in this unlimited knowledge.

Regards Tony
 
Old 05-25-2018, 09:59 PM   #25
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You are very much right to say that it was for our spiritual well being. Had he decided to retract his message while being subject to such horrors, his teachings would be invalidated just as the people wanted. However he remained firm and was willing to die for the most true cause: The cause of God.

I would also like to point out to some friends that as of today (May 25th) another man was being tortured and soon to be killed for upholding the cause of God. I know largely the Sikh tradition is not mentioned by Baha'i's, and so I seek to mention that today is the day that the first of 5 days of torture began for Guru Arjan, the 5th Guru of Sikhism. He had guided the Sikh people and compiled the initial version of what would become the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, called the Adi Granth. He had taught the people and kept them strong in faith despite constant persecution, and it was this day that he was arrested and his days of torment leading to his death began.

After refusing to change lines in the Adi Granth that the 4th Emperor of the Mughal Empire named Jahangir did not agree with, he was sentenced to be executed. On this first day he was not given food and was not allowed to sleep. He stayed peaceful and continued to chant the name of the Lord until the coming day, where things would get much worse for him.

I know this is not directly related to the topic at hand, but it ties in. People such as Christ would not think of retracting their revelations, as God had chosen them to deliver His message, and I am sure that Christ knew that even if these people destroyed his body, his message would live on forever. Jesus had died but as a result his teachings were given a seal of truth. A man who was so adamant in faith that, through spiteful words, outright torture, and immense pain in death, he endured all to show people one thing: The cause of God can not be defeated. Truly the death of Jesus has had a tremendous impact on the souls of billions throughout the ages. You are certainly right to say that it has helped us spiritually grow

And welcome back!!
 
Old 05-27-2018, 05:31 AM   #26
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I found more on the essence of the manifestations of God:

Two philosophical terms might be useful to clarify the twofold station of the Manifestations that Bahá'u'lláh describes. One is ontology, 'the science or study of being' (Oxford English Dictionary). Ontology pertains to the nature or essence of things. The other term is epistemology, 'the theory or science of the method or grounds of knowledge' (Oxford English Dictionary). Epistemology pertains to what we can know about things. What we can know about a thing is not necessarily identical to the thing itself.

One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9).


Bahá'u'lláh uses the concept of the twofold station to explain seemingly contradictory statements in the Qur'án and hadith about Muhammad:
The first station, which is related to His [the Manifestations] innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testified the tradition: 'Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is. And in like manner, the words: 'Arise, O Muhammad, for the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee. He similarly saith: 'There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee [God] and Them [the Manifestations], except that They are Thy servants. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: 'I am but a man like you. 'Say praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle? (Gleanings 66-67).
Good unbiased post.

Thank you.

peace

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