Saladin

I have a question regarding Sayyid 'Ali Muhammad Shirazi or the Bab. I know this may sound challenging but do realize that is not my intent. Do Baha'is believe that the Bab is Imam al-Mahdi? If so, how can this be possible when prophet Isa (pbuh) didn't arrive with him? What is the Bab to the Baha'i faith? I have read that he was a predecessor of Baha'u'llah and that you consider him to be more than what I just mentioned.

arthra

The Bab in our view was a Manifestation of God that fulfilled the prophecies of the Return of the Twelfth Imam, the Mahdi and the Qa'im.. the Expected or Promised One of Islam.. He also fulfileld prophecies of the Return of Christ..

His role in respect to Baha'u'llah was very much like the role of John the Baptist to Christ and in His writings the Bab refers many times to "Him Whom God would make manifest" Who we believe was Baha'u'llah..

But since this post is a rather limited space I will refer to you an essay by a famous Baha'i teacher Muhammad Mustafa:

Baha'u'llah: The Great Announcement of the Qur'an

and specifically the chapter two on the Advent of Two Manifestations.

You may also be interested in

Symbol and Secret: Qur'an Commentary in Baha'u'llah's Kitab-i-Iqan

Which details aspects of the Kitab-i-Iqan.

Saladin

What do you mean exactly?

arthra

Baha'is believe that the Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the Return Christ in 1844..

There were two movements far apart culturally one in the Iraq-Iran area and one in the United States and a few other countries.. On one hand you had the Shaykhi movement led by Shaykh Ahmad and later Siyyid Kazim in Iraq and Iran.. who expected the Promised One in 1260 AH.

On the other you had the Millwerite movement that expected the Return of Christ..
There are many parallels between the life of Jesus and that of the Bab..

Saladin

This is getting confusing. Do you think he is prophet Isa or Jesus Christ (pbuh) or do you think he is Imam al-Mahdi (as)? He can't be both. Both were suppose to come at the same time. So which is he? At any rate, how can you say he fufilled the prophecy when he didn't achieve all the Mahdi (as) was suppose to bring? He didn't bring justice and truth to the entire world and all of this was suppose to be before the day of judgement. He didn't do this.

I am also aware of the Shaykhi movement and there links to all this. I however wasn't aware of the Millerite movement or the advent churches and so on but as far as Christianity is concerned, I tend to trust the Orthodox or Catholic teachings as opposed to the Protestant teachings as they often bastardize and misinterpret and add on to Christianity, whereas the Orthodox and Catholics, in general, do not, but I'm not sure what you mean't exactly by your statement in regards to this and how it relates to this.

Point being? I am not trying to be offensive, I'm just having a hard time believing this when it doesn't match up entirely, in my opinion atleast.

arthra

He can be both..yes in our view the Bab fulfilled the prophecies of the Mahdi and the prophecies of the return of Christ..

Please read the chapter I cited earlier of the work The Great Annoubncement of the Qur'an" as it may answer in more depth..

Also I'll close with a passage from the Kitab-i-Iqan:

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God!" He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not *179* Thine!"[1] And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God."[2]

And were any of them to voice the utterance: "I am the Messenger of God," He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God."[3] Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence.

And were they all to proclaim: "I am the Seal of the Prophets," they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last," the "Seen" and "Hidden" -- all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say: "We are the servants of God," this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of being were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible.

~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 178

Also

Consider with due attention, for the path is very strait, even while it is more spacious than the heavens and the earth and what is between them.

For instance, if all those who were expecting the fulfilment of the promise of Jesus had been assured of the manifestation of Muhammad, the Apostle of God, not one would have turned aside from the sayings of Jesus.

So likewise in the Revelation of the Point of the Bayan, if all should be assured that this is that same Promised Mihdi [One Who is guided] whom the Apostle of God foretold, not one of the believers in the Qur'án would turn aside from the sayings of the Apostle of God.

So likewise in the Revelation of Him Whom God shall make manifest, behold the same thing; for should all be assured that He is that same 'He Whom God shall make manifest' *111* whom the Point of the Bayan hath foretold, not one would turn aside. IX, 3.

~ The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 109

bwb

We believe that Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah were all the return of Christ, but this is meant figuratively, not literally. The same Spirit of God is "returning" and appearing in different individuals. "In the same way, if we regard the return of the individual, it is another individual; but if we regard the qualities and perfections, the same have returned." (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 133) . The Bab claimed that He was the Mahdi referred to in Islamic hadiths.

bwb

According to Baha'i teachings, the two Manifestations (Mahdi and Christ) are the Bab and Baha'u'llah:

"All the peoples of the world are awaiting two Manifestations, Who must be contemporaneous; all wait for the fulfillment of this promise. In the Bible the Jews have the promise of the Lord of Hosts and the Messiah; in the Gospel the return of Christ and Elijah is promised.

In the religion of Muhammad there is the promise of the Mihdi and the Messiah, and it is the same with the Zoroastrian and the other religions, but if we relate these matters in detail, it would take too long. The essential fact is that all are promised two Manifestations, Who will come, one following on the other. It has been prophesied that in the time of these two Manifestations the earth will be transformed, the world of existence will be renewed, and beings will be clothed in new garments. Justice and truth will encompass the world; enmity and hatred will disappear; all causes of division among peoples, races and nations will vanish; and the cause of union, harmony and concord will appear. The negligent will awake, the blind will see, the deaf will hear, the dumb will speak, the sick will be cured, the dead will arise. War will give place to peace, enmity will be conquered by love, the causes of dispute and wrangling will be entirely removed, and true felicity will be attained. The world will become the mirror of the Heavenly Kingdom; humanity will be the Throne of Divinity. All nations will become one; all religions will be unified; all individual men will become of one family and of one kindred. All the regions of the earth will become one; the superstitions caused by races, countries, individuals, languages and politics will disappear; and all men will attain to life eternal, under the shadow of the Lord of Hosts."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 39)

Muhstadi

Is it true that the Bab claim to be the servant of the 12th Imam?

arthra

If you read the Writings of the Bab and are familiar the revelation of the Bab it was a progressive developement.. At first it appeared He was the Bab (Gate) to the Twelfth Imam just as there had been historically four Babs in the past supplying guidance..

Later the Bab revealed He was the Promised One the Qa'im..and so on

Similarly in the Bible in the Gospels Jesus asked who people thought He was.. some said a prophet.. and so on but His identity was only gradually revealed as the Messiah..

Baha'is don't accept as literal that the Twelfth Imam was mysteriously hidden or was alive.. Most likely his life was snuffed out just as for the other Imams but the fulfillment of the expectation of divine guidance was realized we believe in the Bab.

This from a scholarly source:

History. Bahaism as a religion had as its background two earlier and much different movements in nineteenth-century Shiʿite Shaikhism (following Shaikh Aḥmad Aḥsāʾī) and Babism. Shaikhism centered on theosophical doctrines and believed that a perfect Shiʿite existed on earth at all times, and many Shaikhis (as well as other Shiʿites) expected the return of the hidden Twelfth Imam in 1260/1844. Shaikhis in particular joined the messianic Babi movement of the 1840s, which shook Iran as Sayyed ʿAlī-Moḥammad Šīrāzī proclaimed himself, first the bāb or “gate” of the Twelfth Imam, and then the return of the imam himself.

bwb

Sorry, but I completely disagree with your scholarly source on this. The Bab never claimed to be a gate to the Hidden Imam/Mahdi/Qa'im. Some people assumed that about Him during the very early stage of His Mission, because of His title, the Bab, but it was entirely a false assumption on their part. The title "The Bab" or "Gate" really referred to the Bab's station as precursor to "Him whom God will make manifest" which was Baha'u'llah.

Muhstadi

So indeed the Bab did claim to be "the" Bab, or intermediary, between Imam Mahdi and the believers. How can the Bab claim to be the gate of Imam Mahdi, thus distinguishing between himself and the Mahdi, then turn around and claim to be the Mahdi?

bwb

"He made Himself known as the Qá'im, the High Prophet or Messiah so long promised, so eagerly expected by the Muhammadan world. He added to this the declaration that he was also the Gate (that is, the Bab) through whom a greater Manifestation than Himself was to enter the human realm."

(Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. xxix)

The Imam-Jum'ih ... then, turning to the Báb, asked Him to be brief, as this, he said, would allay the excitement of the people. The Báb, as He faced the congregation, declared: "The condemnation of God be upon him who regards me either as a representative of the Imam or the gate thereof.The condemnation of God be also upon whosoever imputes to me the charge of having denied the unity of God, of having repudiated the prophethood of Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets, of having rejected the truth of any of the messengers of old, or of having refused to recognize the guardianship of Ali, the Commander of the Faithful, or of any of the imams who have succeeded him."

(The Dawn-Breakers, p. 153)

bwb

No, he did not. If you read my previous two posts in this thread, you can see that Artha's information is mistaken.

arthra

It was a gradual process as I mentioned before..

All of these figures in the Shiah mind were connected...The Return of the Twelfth Imam, the Mahdi and such and what happend inmy view is that the Bab claimed to fulfill the expectations also He minimalized the literal mindedness of some..

In Shia Islam, the belief in the Mahdi is a "powerful and central religious idea" and closely related to the Twelfth Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, whose return from occultation is deemed analagous with the coming of the Mahdi.[4]

The source for the above quote was actaually Juan Cole, a Baha'i scholar...

Bahá'í Faith

Also read the following by Robert Stockman:

Founding Figures. The Bahá’í Faith arose from the Bábí Faith, a religion that had a short-lived flourishing in Iran in the 1840s. It was established by `Alí-Muhammad of Shiraz (1819-50), who in 1844 took on the title of the Báb or “the gate” and who declared himself to be the fulfillment of Islamic prophecies. The Twelver Shi’ite branch of Islam that dominates Iran expected the return of the twelfth imam (a messianic figure) and the expectation peaked among some Shi’ites in 1844. The Báb initially hinted that he was a gate to the twelfth imam, but gradually made explicit a claim to be the twelfth imam himself. He also penned mystic commentaries on the Qur’án, whose style and content signified a claim to divine revelation.

Source:

Bahá'í Faith, The

So it was a gradual unfoldment.. Jesus did a very similar thinig in my opinion..He was baptized by John the Baptist.. Disclosed His station over time to His disciples and in some situations asked that His station be kept secret..

bwb

The Dawn-Breakers can be downloaded for free from reference.bahai.org . Here is the English version. I don't know if reference.bahai.org has a farsi or arabic version of "The Dawn-Breakers".
Baha'i Reference Library: The Works of Other Authors

"The reading of the Dawn-Breakers is sure to arouse the friends to renewed zeal and added perseverance in spreading the Cause of Bahá'u'lláh. Consider to what extent the Báb and those early leaders of the Faith suffered. It was not through a blind religious zeal but because they desired to bring about for the future generations that promised era that the Faith of the Báb promised to start -- an era of peace, good-will and full realization of the spiritual significance of the life of man upon the earth. They suffered that we may be happy. They died that we may live in perfect bliss. What a sacred debt, therefore, we owe to them! How much we ought to labour to repay them for their sacrifices, and how willing and earnest we should be in consecrating our life in the path they trod!"

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 27, 1933)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 568)

bwb

The Cause of the Bab was born when He declared His mission to His first disciple, Mulla Husayn, May 23, 1844. Here is an account of that dramatic and moving event from God Passes by. (Dawn-breakers gives a more detailed account.) :

THE DECLARATION OF THE BAB TO HIS FIRST DISCIPLE, MULLA HUSAYN

The opening scene of the initial act of this great drama was laid in the upper chamber of the modest residence of the son of a mercer of Shiraz, in an obscure corner of that city. The time was the hour before sunset, on the 22nd day of May, 1844. The participants were the Báb, a twenty-five year old siyyid, of pure and holy lineage, and the young Mulla Husayn, the first to believe in Him. Their meeting immediately before that interview seemed to be purely fortuitous. The interview itself was protracted till the hour of dawn. The Host remained closeted alone with His guest, nor was the sleeping city remotely aware of the import of the conversation they held with each other. No record has passed to posterity of that unique night save the fragmentary but highly illuminating account that fell from the lips of Mulla Husayn.

"I sat spellbound by His utterance, oblivious of time and of those who awaited me," he himself has testified, after describing the nature of the questions he had put to his Host and the conclusive replies he had received from Him, replies which had established beyond the shadow of a doubt the validity of His claim to be the promised Qá'im. "Suddenly the call of the Mu'adhdhin, summoning the faithful to their morning prayer, awakened me from the state of ecstasy into which I seemed to have fallen. All the delights, all the ineffable glories, which the Almighty has recounted in His Book as the priceless possessions of the people of Paradise -- these I seemed to be experiencing that night. Methinks I was in a place of which it could be truly said: 'Therein no toil shall reach us, and therein no weariness shall touch us;' 'no vain discourse shall they hear therein, nor any falsehood, but only the cry, "Peace! Peace!"'; 'their cry therein shall be, "Glory to Thee, O God!" and their salutation therein, "Peace!", and the close of their cry, "Praise be to God, Lord of all creatures!"' Sleep had departed from me that night. I was enthralled by the music of that voice which rose and fell as He chanted; now swelling forth as He revealed verses of the Qayyúmu'l-Asmá', again acquiring ethereal, subtle harmonies as He uttered the prayers He was revealing. At the end of each invocation, He would repeat this verse: 'Far from the glory of thy Lord, the All-Glorious, be that which His creatures affirm of Him! And peace be upon His Messengers! And praise be to God, the Lord of all beings!'"

"This Revelation," Mulla Husayn has further testified, "so suddenly and impetuously thrust upon me, came as a thunderbolt which, for a time, seemed to have benumbed my faculties. I was blinded by its dazzling splendor and overwhelmed by its crushing force. Excitement, joy, awe, and wonder stirred the depths of my soul. Predominant among these emotions was a sense of gladness and strength which seemed to have transfigured me. How feeble and impotent, how dejected and timid, I had felt previously! Then I could neither write nor walk, so tremulous were my hands and feet. Now, however, the knowledge of His Revelation had galvanized my being. I felt possessed of such courage and power that were the world, all its peoples and its potentates, to rise against me, I would, alone and undaunted, withstand their onslaught. The universe seemed but a handful of dust in my grasp. I seemed to be the voice of Gabriel personified, calling unto all mankind: 'Awake, for, lo! the morning Light has broken. Arise, for His Cause is made manifest. The portal of His grace is open wide; enter therein, O peoples of the world! For He Who is your promised One is come!'"

(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 6)