StudentofBahai

Hello to all.

Yesterday was the first time I had ever started to research the Baha'i Faith. I find it to be very interesting, and I really like it and look forward to further research. I really like how The Baha'i faith accepts all religions as valid forms of Gods expression to man based on them, which is something I've always felt. However there is one thing that I found odd.

If the Baha'i Faith is so very accepting, which I believe it is, why are homosexuals not accepted. Do you think that this comes simply from the fact that the times the faith started in were very anti-gay? And as for the whole thing with Gay Marriage and rights that are going on in politics now, do you feel that though homosexuality is not right, that they should still be given their rights as free moral agents and leave that situation with them between them and God or do you feel that they should be treated the way that they are?

I ask this mainly because I know a lot of Gay people, but also becuase I come from a faith that accepts homosexuals as people who God still loves, and we do not prevent them from doing anything. Also, it seems to me that there must be something natural about homosexuality. Rather it be natural population control or what ever. I say this because it is found literally everywhere! In every faith, every nation, every social class, every profession, and even in animals.

Please let me know. I appreciate it and look forward to your answers and future interactions.

arthra

Thanks for the question!

You know we Baha'is also accept "homosexuals as people who God still loves"..

Baha'is are also opposed to discrimination or hatred or mistreatment "Gay bashing" of homosexuals in society.


As far as "gay marriage" which you have cited, the Faith has not accepted that for Baha'is.. Marriage in the Faith is a very specific institution that is defined as a man and woman who have the consent of their living parents vowing to abide by God's Will..

You can read a compilation of Baha'i sources on the issue here:

Compilation, the Baha'i Faith and Homosexuality

StudentofBahai

Well thank you. That makes me feel a little better about it.

cire perdue

Homosexuals usually don't have a choice about what they are. However neither do people with alcoholism, childhood diabetes, bipolar disorder, and/or cerebral palsy. I am a recovering homosexual because of the teachings of the Faith. I believed that there would not be a prohibition for which there would not be a solution. The knowledge had not been widely available until the 1980's anyway. Before then I was white knuckling it, and not very successfully.

The solution for me was to accept and understand the non-genetic view of homosexuality which is faulty development. Yes, I have always felt different, but then I have always not had the tender loving bond with my father that I and all babies needed from a pre-verbal age. I adored my father as any infant boy does, and it was rejected, not purposely, but it is just the way he was. His father was distant. He was distant from other men. You might want to read earlier posts I have made here by doing a search on "recovery". I have childhood pictures that show me reaching for him with total love. It was not accepted. What does an infant do with that kind of pain? It makes them vulnerable later in life.

I have found a way to be a Baha'i that is in line with those teachings about homosexuality. IT can be done. One has to realize that current thinking is popular in its acceptance, it does not mean it is correct. There has been no genetic link proven thus far. Even if it is, one can change genetics.

Gay people should be loved and accepted regardless. However within the Faith there are expectations of behavior, not being. We ultimately believe that as a way of life being gay is not a healthy spiritual path. That is our view simply.

I am sure I'm perceived as gay, but I don't mention it in the Faith, not to hide it, but there is a great deal to me other than my sexuality. I have always felt love and acceptance among Baha'is that I found no where else. Other Baha'is from whom I purposely sought help (ignorant help may do harm) taught me this is a human failing, no more than we all have, and that it could be worked on. There are other Baha'is in recovery. Even though this problem was a result of my very dysfunctional alcoholioc family, unintentional incest, early childhood molestation, and adult sexual experience as a child it has had a solution. The solution is that I can choose who I want to be and there is a God to help me, not do it for me..

I have had to do the work and it has not been easy. It would not be easy for someone with the same background who was not homosexually oriented to work out those issues. However it is done all the time. Recovering people given time overcome terrible, terrible things which to me proves that the basic nature of man is GOOD. We just have to uncover it, sometimes it is buried so deeply it is certainlly understandably easier not to start to dig at all.

The solution is not to go have successful sexual activity with the opposite sex. The solution is to become more of the gender you already are. To find non-sexual acceptance from your own gender, to re-inforce learning to love one's self. To replace the love that was missed. As a result of doing this studies have men reporting increased attraction to women. I know this happens as well.

In the sexually charge atmosphere of today it is very hard to put sexual activity in the perspective of its real importance in life, but it is part of the process, not to be so attached to gratification. One has to learn there are higher satisfactions with much more rewarding vistas, but it surely does not feel like it without recovery and faith to take that step! God did not send a new revelation for us to stay as we already were. I have been blessed to live in this Day. I see both sides.

StudentofBahai

I actually agree with a lot of what you have said cire perdu. Especially the part about some homosexuals seeking in their homosexual relationships with men what they missed with their fathers (Being love and acceptance of course, not sex). I have considered this possibitlity before and think that it is valid in many situations. However, I do not know if it is true in all.

Either way, I appreciate the comments and fully respect them. I know that you all are apart of a religion that is tolerant and it is clear that even though the official view is that Homosexuality is wrong, you all seem to still respect each persons ability to make their own decisions and leave that between that person and God, rather than involoving yourselves in that persons business. I respect that completly about your community. thank you again.

cire perdue

You are absolutely correct. I believe it is possible to be close to a blank slate and if one is introduced pleasantly into homosexual activity then that is just as reinforcing as sex can be. I know several people who fit that. William Glasser in his book POSITIVE ADDICTION said if we use the reinforcement of the orgasm to quit smoking then there would be no smokers.

Sex is very, very powerful, more than we realize and have a perspective for in this time. There are multiple factors for this outcome of development. Most of which are minimized or not considered because it is so difficult an issue to work on that it is far easier to say it is genetic. Emotional changes are very difficult to affect. To change can be as hard as learning to read and can take just as much time to become profficient or longer.

StudentofBahai

I completly agree

cire perdue

If the cause of homosexuality is known as developmental then there will be guidance for parents on how children are affected by how they are raised. I believe we already have a problem in the West with our children. Parents are not strongly bonded with their offspring and can easily not know what their children are really doing.

Joseph Nicolosi wrote a book for helping children who already appeared to be gay. It was very sad there were fathers who could have made a difference who would not make effort. How does a child respond to a parent who does not care? Self hate or mistrust comes to mind. Is there any wonder that the children of those fathers had issues?

People are not ready to accept the responsibility of their actions if homosexuality is developmental. Even if genetic parental intervention can help.

Napkin

I believe the guidance regarding homosexuality was meant for 130 years ago - middle-east.

Had Bahaullah lived today, He'd take one look at biological research and make different statements.

And I don't think homosexuality should be compared to a mental disease such as addiction. thank offends people. Especially if you believe in a faith meant to unite mankind.

You simply cannot say that Hermaphrodites should correct their behavior.

cire perdue

There is no proof that homosexuals are genetic products YET, but even if they are, they are capable of recovering. I have. The standards of behavior He set for us are for 1000 years, and this popularity of gay people is only a few decades old and not really understood well, but everyone is jumping on the bandwagon to "accept gay lifestyle and marriage". That is incredibly naive. There is an "underworld" aspect to gay lifestyle that regualr people would be totally unaware of.

Homosexuals are welcome in the Faith, I was, but they may not live that life. They do not even have to change. I was gay when I became a Baha'i in 1973, and I know a bit about it now as a result of wishing to live a Baha'i life, and not adapt the Faith to suit my desires. Homosexuality is very much like alcoholism and can be worked on by a 12 Step Program.

You come into this discussion very late. There is a great deal of information out there that is not popular "belief" or propaganda. The Faith refers people to 12 Step Programs all the time.

We cannot worry about offending people and be Baha'is. The Faith is not for everyone, and we are not going to change to believe in the bodily resurrection to attract Christians nor accept gay lifestyles to attract gays. If people cannot or will not part their own clouds to see the Glory of God, then we certainly should NOT change the Faith for them. It does not work that way. The Faith changes us, that is the whole point of a new revelation, it comes to change mankind. We will have numbers, but NOT by compromising values and changing revealed teachings.

Your statement makes me wonder if you realize the Station of Baha'u'llah. He declared and revealed things from God, and did not require research to make decisions. Baha'u'llah did not sit down and decide things, He revealed things. His knowledge was innate not acquired.

Lonemedic

I would like to add something, which may not have yet been touched on.

In the Baha'i Faith, people are encouraged to love all people, regardless of gender.

The purpose of marriage is to provide for children. Therefore the purpose for sexual activity is primarily one for having children. This is why contraception is considered to be against the spirit of marriage (and why permanent contraceptive methods are clearly not permitted).

Procreation can only happen between husband and wife, and therefore, homosexuality as an action can never be sanctioned.

The overemphasis on the importance of sex and sexuality (for everyone) cannot be overstated. Our culture is obsessed, and has gone to extreme degrees, to focus on sex, and it has resulted in disruption of countless lives, in a variety of circumstances.

The purpose for life is not to take pleasure in life. The purpose is to serve the Lord, and this results, secondarily, in true happiness.

Sboyce

Non Baha'is are not subject to Baha'i law. Simple as that. If the state lets Homosexuals get married so be it, they just can't be wed as Baha'is

Nuck81

If it is eventually discovered that Homosexuality IS genetic. Then would this Supercede Baha'u'llahs previous statements on Homosexuality?

After all if Science proves that Homosexuality is NOT a choice, then naturally the teachings on homosexuality would have to refer to the scientific discovery's correct?

LordOfGoblins

Erm. I never heard this. can you please show where that understanding comes from in the writings or is that just your own understadning??

arthra

If you google the words "genetic predisposition" you will find many behaviours of humans are based on predispositions.

Genetic predisposition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On the question of whether or not there is a biological predisposition to homosexuality, the letter indicates that the question is still open to dispute. In this regard, it may be important to note that while science may find that a predisposition to homosexuality is caused by genetic aberration, and in that sense may be considered "natural", it does not follow that it is "natural" for some people to be homosexual. A comparison can be drawn with the evidence which suggests that there is a genetic flaw which produces a predisposition to alcoholism. Most people would hesitate to conclude from such evidence that a person with such a genetic aberration would be destined to become an alcoholic in spite of any efforts to the contrary

Advice on Homosexuality

The laws of the Aqdas are for this time and age.. The Universal House of Justice would have the prerogative to review how Baha'is would respond to any area not included in the Writings.

arthra

BIRTH CONTROL
Birth control . . . when exercised in order to deliberately prevent the procreation of any children is against the Spirit of the Law of Bahá'u'lláh, which defines the primary purpose of marriage to be the rearing of children and their spiritual training in the Cause.

Letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, dated February 4, 1937, in Unrestrained As the Wind, pp. 133-34

To use birth control in order to have no children at all thwarts the purpose of marriage.

Letter from the Universal House of Justice, dated February 27, 1973

There is nothing in the Sacred Writings specifically on the subjects of birth control, abortion or sterilization, but Bahá'u'lláh did state that the primary purpose of marriage was the procreation of children, and it is to this primary purpose that the beloved Guardian alludes. . . . This does not imply that a couple are obliged to have as many children as they can; the Guardian's secretary clearly stated on his behalf, in answer to an inquiry, that it was for the husband and wife to decide how many children they would have. A decision to have no children at all would vitiate the primary purpose of marriage unless, of course, there were some medical reason why such a decision would be required.

You and your husband, therefore, should have no feeling that you are obliged to add to your already large family. This is a matter entirely for you to decide, and there are many methods of preventing conception, including self-discipline and restraint, to which you can have recourse. Sterilization, however, would be a more far-reaching action than any of these, with implications and results beyond those necessary for the immediate purpose of limiting the

cire perdue

People are naive about acceptance of gay lifestyle. It encompasses some rather ugly behaviors that the general population will be unaware of. Even if it is genetic, and alcoholism is thought to be genetic, then one can recover from it. I have. I am so grateful I had the motivation to recover. It has been the means of all my spiritual growth for which I am deeply deeply grateful.

The Fatih does not need people who want to change it to fit their inclinations. The whole purpose of a new revelation is to spritually uplift man. People treat this Faith as if it is something to join and it is not. It is a revelation to believe in and make a life around. IT is not the neighborhood church who seeks members to add to its rolls and budget.

BruceDLimber

LoG, what is prohibited in contraception with the intent of having no children whatever.

Its use for a time (as, for example, to control spacing of children) is fine!

Peace,

Bruce

cire perdue

Baha'is can choose not to have children.