harve1138

1. Is it ok to have a social drink if i do not get intoxicated i.e. my inlaws like to have wine with dinner is it ok to have a glass with them?

2.I am not a homosexual but I also dont see anthing wrong with it. is it condmeded in the Baha'i Faith?

3. I'm still confused about the whole afterlife issue could someone please help me out with this?

4.who is concidered a "manifistation of god"?

Thanx for whoever can help me out!

Lunitik

The Kitab-i-Aqdas states that Baha'is should not consume even a drop of alcohol.

A Baha'i is instructed to overcome homosexuality as it is considered a weakness. That said, Baha'is are also instructed to stand up for all oppressed groups. Thus, a homosexual Baha'i should be counselled toward that which is intended naturally, but since Baha'i laws are not binding on those outside the faith, we should likewise not permit prejudice against them. The intent of sex is reproduction and should be restricted to the confines of marriage, if it is otherwise, it is raw lust which should be suppressed in the Baha'i view. It is also written that not every person is intended to reproduce, as such, while a Baha'i is not required to change sexuality, if they do not pursue straight relationships then they are to avoid sexual relations entirely.

Where are you confused on this topic? In the Baha'i view, all those that believe will proceed on after death of their physical body - those which do not believe will not progress. Based on our spiritual growth (acquisition of virtues) some will enter the afterlife at different levels - I remind you, in the Baha'i view, heaven is closeness to God while hell is distance - but all will still have opportunities to advance in that plane. We will all continue to advance until we have gained the presence of God, which for Baha'is is the closest we can come. We will continue to serve God throughout our true life (physical and spiritual).

In the strictest sense, it can be said that all of creation is a Manifestation of God, since this very existence is through his love. That said, those Manifestations which have brought forward God's plan for humans in the Baha'i view are: Abraham, Zoroaster, Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah. Baha'is also accept that there have been Manifestations brought to all peoples of the world, many of which have been forgotten over time. Baha'is believe that it can be no other way if God loves all people, since otherwise he has shown favoritism.

(It is interesting to note that, other than Bab and Baha'u'llah in this list, it numbers seven, which is the number of angels addressed in Revelations of John.)

arthra

Harve,

Thanks for your questions! And welcome to the Baha'i Forums.. I'm going to provide you with responses as best as I can from a Baha'i view..


harve

1. Is it ok to have a social drink if i do not get intoxicated i.e. my inlaws like to have wine with dinner is it ok to have a glass with them?

For Baha'is drinking alcohol is forbidden. We don't use it in cooking either.. When I first became a Baha'i my father used to drink beer and not drinking it with him did break down some of our socializing .. however it really didn't change our relationship that much..


2.I am not a homosexual but I also dont see anthing wrong with it. is it condmeded in the Baha'i Faith?

Sexual relations outside marriage are forbidden for Baha'is and homosexuality is spiritually condemned:

"Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history, is the question of immorality, and over- emphasis of sex. Homosexuality, according to the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, is spiritually condemned. This does not mean that people so afflicted must not be helped and advised and sympathized with. It does mean that we do not believe that it is a permissible way of life; which, also, is all too often the accepted attitude nowadays.

"We must struggle against the evils in society by spiritual means, and medical and social ones as well. We must be tolerant but uncompromising, understanding but immovable in our point of view.

"The thing people need to meet this type of trouble, as well as every other type, is greater spiritual understanding and stability; and of course we Bahá'ís believe that ultimately this can only be given to mankind through the Teachings of the Manifestation of God for this Day."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, May 21, 1954) 365

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 364)

Basically Baha'is are conservative when it comes to our family life...


3. I'm still confused about the whole afterlife issue could someone please help me out with this?

Not sure what you have in mind but we believe the next life is parallel to a fetus emerging into this world.. In the world of the fetus this world would probably be considered "death".


4.who is concidered a "manifistation of god"?

According to the Baha'i Writings there are several enumerated.. however we cannot say for sure how many there are.. We only know of what is mentioend:

In the Word of God there is still another unity, the oneness of the Manifestations of God, His Holiness Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 258)

EACH religion teaches that a mediator is necessary between man and the Creator -- one who receives the full light of the divine splendor and radiates it over the human world, as the earth's atmosphere receives and diffuses the warmth of the sun's rays. This mediator between God and humanity has different designations though he always brings the same spiritual command.

In one era he is called Abraham, at another time Moses, again he is called Buddha, another time Jesus, and yet another time Mohammad. All turned to the divine reality for their strength. Those who followed Moses accepted him as their mediator; those who followed Zoroaster accepted him as their mediator; but all the Israelites deny Zoroaster, and the Zoroastrians deny Moses. They fail to see in both the one light. Had the Zoroastrians comprehended the reality of Zoroaster, they would have understood Moses and Jesus. Alas! the majority of men attach themselves 33 to the name of the mediator and lose sight of the real purport.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 30)

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunitik (It is interesting to note that, other than Bab and Baha'u'llah in this list [of Manifestations], it numbers seven, which is the number of angels addressed in Revelations of John.)

Actually no:

We know of a few more Divine Messengers given that our scriptures also include Adam and Noah on the list, and the Qur'an names two more: Hud and Salih.

As to the afterlife, the Baha'i scriptures have much to say! I'll post just some of it here.

Best regards, :-)

Bruce
_ _ _ _ _

According to the Bahá'í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

"Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun...."
―(Baha'u'llah and the New Era, p. 222)

"Bahá'u'lláh and &'Abdu'l-Bahá regard the descriptions of Heaven and Hell given in some of the older religious writings as symbolic, like the Biblical story of the Creation, and not as literally true. According to Them, Heaven is the state of perfection, and Hell that of imperfection; Heaven is harmony with God's will and with our fellows, and Hell is the want of such harmony; Heaven is the condition of spiritual life, and Hell that of spiritual death. A man may be either in Heaven or in Hell while still in the body. The joys of Heaven are spiritual joys; and the pains of Hell consist in the deprivation of these joys."
―Baha'u'llah and the New Era pp. 190-1

From the Baha'i scriptures:

“Thou hast asked Me whether man, as apart from the Prophets of God and His chosen ones, will retain, after his physical death, the self-same individuality, personality, consciousness, and understanding that characterize his life in this world. If this should be the case, how is it, thou hast observed, that whereas such slight injuries to his mental faculties as fainting and severe illness deprive him of his understanding and consciousness, his death, which must involve the decomposition of his body and the dissolution of its elements, is powerless to destroy that understanding and extinguish that consciousness? How can any one imagine that man's consciousness and personality will be maintained, when the very instruments necessary to their existence and function will have completely disintegrated?

“Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.”

-- (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 153-154)


“And now concerning thy question whether human souls continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from the body. Know thou that the souls of the people of Baha, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

“The people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another's state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another's capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.

“The souls of the infidels, however, shall -- and to this I bear witness -- when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought.”

-- (Baha'u'llah, Ibid., pp. 169-171)


“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station.... The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.”

-- (Baha'u'llah, Ibid., pp. 155-157)

"Know that, although the human soul has existed on the earth for prolonged times and ages, yet it is phenomenal. As it is a divine sign, when once it has come into existence, it is eternal. The spirit of man has a beginning, but it has no end; it continues eternally."

-- Some Answered Questions, p. 151
[continues]

BruceDLimber

[continued]
"You question about eternal life and the entrance into the Kingdom. The outer expression used for the Kingdom is heaven; but this is a comparison and similitude, not a reality or fact, for the Kingdom is not a material place; it is sanctified from time and place. It is a spiritual world, a divine world, and the center of the Sovereignty of God; it is freed from body and that which is corporeal, and it is purified and sanctified from the imaginations of the human world. To be limited to place is a property of bodies and not of spirits. Place and time surround the body, not the mind and spirit. Observe that the body of man is confined to a small place; it covers only two spans of earth. But the spirit and mind of man travel to all countries and regions−even through the limitless space of the heavens−surround all that exists, and make discoveries in the exalted spheres and infinite distances. This is because the spirit has no place; it is placeless; and for the spirit the earth and the heaven are as one since it makes discoveries in both. But the body is limited to a place and does not know that which is beyond it.

"For life is of two kinds: that of the body and that of the spirit. The life of the body is material life, but the life of the spirit expresses the existence of the Kingdom, which consists in receiving the Spirit of God and becoming vivified by the breath of the Holy Spirit. Although the material life has existence, it is pure nonexistence and absolute death for the holy saints. So man exists, and this stone also exists, but what a difference between the existence of man and that of the stone! Though the stone exists, in relation to the existence of man it is nonexistent.

"The meaning of eternal life is the gift of the Holy Spirit, as the flower receives the gift of the season, the air, and the breezes of spring. Consider: this flower had life in the beginning like the life of the mineral; but by the coming of the season of spring, of the bounty of the clouds of the springtime, and of the heat of the glowing sun, it attained to another life of the utmost freshness, delicacy and fragrance. The first life of the flower, in comparison to the second life, is death.

"... [T]he life of the Kingdom is the life of the spirit, the eternal life, and that it is purified from place, like the spirit of man which has no place. For if you examine the human body, you will not find a special spot or locality for the spirit, for it has never had a place; it is immaterial. It has a connection with the body like that of the sun with this mirror. The sun is not within the mirror, but it has a connection with the mirror.

"In the same way the world of the Kingdom is sanctified from everything that can be perceived by the eye or by the other senses - hearing, smell, taste or touch. The mind which is in man, the existence of which is recognized - where is it in him? If you examine the body with the eye, the ear or the other senses, you will not find it; nevertheless, it exists. Therefore, the mind has no place, but it is connected with the brain. The Kingdom is also like this. In the same way love has no place, but it is connected with the heart; so the Kingdom has no place, but is connected with man.

"Entrance into the Kingdom is through the love of God, through detachment, through holiness and chastity, through truthfulness, purity, steadfastness, faithfulness and the sacrifice of life.

"These explanations show that man is immortal and lives eternally. For those who believe in God, who have love of God, and faith, life is excellent - that is, it is eternal; but to those souls who are veiled from God, although they have life, it is dark, and in comparison with the life of believers it is nonexistence.

"For example, the eye and the nail are living; but the life of the nail in relation to the life of the eye is nonexistent. This stone and this man both exist; but the stone in relation to the existence of man is nonexistent; it has no being; for when man dies, and his body is destroyed and annihilated, it becomes like stone and earth. Therefore, it is clear that although the mineral exists, in relation to man it is nonexistent.

"In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God."
−(Some Answered Questions, Pages: 241-243)

[He also speaks about our status changing in the next world, and what's required for it.]

"When they [men] are delivered through the light of faith from the darkness of these vices, and become illuminated with the radiance of the sun of reality, and ennobled with all the virtues, they esteem this the greatest reward, and they know it to be the true paradise. In the same way they consider that the spiritual punishment ... is to be subjected to the world of nature, to be veiled from God, to be brutal and ignorant, to fall into carnal lusts, to be absorbed in animal frailties, to be characterized with dark qualities ... these are the greatest punishments and tortures....

"...The rewards of the other world are the perfections and the peace obtained in the spiritual worlds after leaving this world ... the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world ... consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favours, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.

"The wealth of the other world is nearness to God. Consequently it is certain that those who are near the Divine Court are allowed to intercede, and this intercession is approved by God....

"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice; for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have the power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God.... Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications.

"Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state.... There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned.

"Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world."
―Some Answered Questions, pp. 260-274 passim.

Lunitik

Bruce, yes we know there were many more, but those are the ones commonly listed and also one instance of why the #9 is important for Baha'u'llah. There are many threads of thought within the Baha'i community that state the 7 prior to Bab correlate to the seven angels of Revelation although of course I do not believe this is addressed in the authoritative scriptures at all.

I apologize for the confusion.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunitik Bruce, yes we know there were many more, but those are the ones commonly listed and also one instance of why the #9 is important for Baha'u'llah. There are many threads of thought within the Baha'i community that state the 7 prior to Bab correlate to the seven angels of Revelation although of course I do not believe this is addressed in the authoritative scriptures at all.

Understood, but part of the reason I pointed this out is because some folks mistakenly attribute virtually ANY occurrence of the number nine as indicating something or other completely without basis.

A good example of this is the fact that Baha'i temples have nine sides. This is because of the significance of that number as the literal value of "Baha" (2+1+5+1) in the Persian abjad system; but some claim it's because there are nine living religions today, which is NOT the reason.

I don't know about the seven angels offhand without looking up the references, but I do recall that Bob Riggs explains in his book The Apocalypse that the seven cities named there (Sardis, Philadelphia, etc.) in fact refer to the previous religions. (This book is available for detailed examination at: Bahá'í Library Online in the "Books" section.)

Regards, :-)

Bruce

Lunitik

That is exactly where I have gotten several such ideas

Yeshua

Catholics generally speaking regard the "Seven Churches" of Revelation as referring to the Seven Ages of the Third Age of the Holy Spirit. In our mindset there are Three Ages of Humankind - the Age of the Father, lasting from creation to the birth of Christ, the Age of the Son, lasting from the birth of Christ until the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and finally the Age of the Holy Spirit which begun at Pentecost and will last forevermore, well until the consummation of all things. The Age of the Holy Spirit is the Age of the Church. The Age of the Church is subsequently composed of Seven Ages which relate to both the Seven Days of creation and the Seven Churches of Revelation. The Ages are, according to the private visions of Venerable Bartholomew Holzhauser:

-the status seminativus or the first age of the Church, from Christ and the Apostles to Pope Linus and Emperor Nero,
-the status irrigativus or the second age of the Church, the days of persecution,
-the status illuminativus or the third age of the Church, from Pope Sylvester to Leo III,
-the status pacifitcus or the fourth age of the Church from Leo III to Leo X,
-the status afflictionis et purgativus or the fifth age of the Church, from Leo X to a strong ruler or grand monarch and a holy pope,
-the status consolationis of the sixth age of the Church, from that holy pope to the birth of Antichrist,
-the status desolationis are the seventh and last age of the Church, from the Antichrist to the end of the world.

We are, accordingly, in the Fifth Age of the Holy Spirit - in the Church of Sardis. We are about to enter the Sixth Age, the Golden Age of the Church of Philedelphia - which means in Greek "brotherly love".

The visionary, Holzhauser, expands upon this and elucidates it in his writings:



“The fifth period of the Church, which began circa 1520, will end with the arrival of the holy Pope and of the powerful Monarch who is called "Help From God" because he will restore everything [in Christ]…” 1



“The fifth period is one of affliction, desolation, humiliation, and poverty for the Church. Jesus Christ will purify His people through cruel wars, famines, plagues, epidemics, and other horrible calamities. He will also afflict and weaken the Latin Church with many heresies. It is a period of defections, calamities and exterminations. Those Christians who survive the sword, plague and famines, will be few on earth. Nations will fight against nations and will be desolated by internecine dissensions…” 2

...

“During this period, many men will abuse of the freedom of conscience conceded to them. It is of such men that Jude the Apostle spoke when he said, ‘These men blaspheme whatever they do not understand; and they corrupt whatever they know naturally as irrational animals do… They feast together without restraint, feeding themselves, grumbling murmurers, walking according to their lusts; their mouth speaketh proud things, they admire people for the sake of gain; they bring about division, sensual men, having not the spirit.’” 5

....


“They will ridicule Christian simplicity; they will call it folly and. nonsense, but they will have the highest regard for advanced knowledge, and for the skill by which the axioms of the law, the precepts of morality, the Holy Canons and religious dogmas are clouded by senseless questions and elaborate arguments. As a result, no principle at. all, however holy, authentic, ancient, and certain it may be, will remain free of censure, criticism, false interpretation, modification, and delimitation by man…” 7


“These are evil times, a century full of dangers and calamities.. Heresy is everywhere, and the followers of heresy are in power almost everywhere. Bishops, prelates, and priests say that they are doing their. duty, that they are vigilant, and that they live as befits their state in life. In like manner, therefore, they all seek excuses. But God will permit a great evil against His Church: Heretics and tyrants will come suddenly and unexpectedly; they will break into the Church while bishops, prelates and priests are asleep. They will enter Italy and lay Rome waste; they will burn down the churches and destroy everything.…” 8


“The Sixth Age of the Spirit commences with the powerful Monarch and the Holy Pontiff as previously mentioned and will last until the appearance of the Antichrist. This sixth epoch of the church – “the time of consolation” begins with the Holy Pope and the Powerful Emperor and terminates with the reign of Antichrist. This will be an age of solace wherein God will console His church after the many mortifications and afflictions she has endured in the Fifth period, for all nations will be brought to the unity of the True catholic faith. The sacerdocy will flower more than ever, and men will seek the kingdom of God in all solicitude. The Lord will give good pastors to the Church. Vocations will be abundant as never before and all men will seek only the kingdom of God and His justice . Men will live peace and this will be granted because people will make their peace with God. They will live under the protection of the Great Monarch and his successors….” 9

...

“The Sixth Epoch of the World, which commences with the emancipation of the people of Israel and the restoration of the Temple and of the city of Jerusalem, will endure until the advent of Jesus Christ…For likewise, in this epoch, the people of Israel will be consoled to a very high degree by the Lord, our God, who will deliver them from the captivity of Babylon. The kingdoms, the nations, and the people will submit to the Roman Empire, furiously vanquished by the very powerful and very illustrious monarch who will govern during fifty-six years, rendering the peace of the universe and reigning alone until the advent of Jesus Christand even after him. Thus, in the Sixth Age, God will delight his Church with the greatest prosperity…” 11



“The “angel” is the Great Monarch: “from heaven” means he will be a catholic: “clothed in clouds” implies he will be humble and modest; “rainbow” he will bring peace to the world; “sunshine” refers to his wisdom, talents and title; “feet” refers to his power and zeal; “Open book” he will rule with justice “Right and left foot” he will exercise power over all the world; “Lion Voiuce” he will put fear into the wicked. The “Golden Crown” refers to his Holy Roman (German) Empire; “Cutlass” means his victorious army; the other “angel” refers to the pope (Angelic pastor). “Other angels” are the other helpers of the Great Monarch who will help him crush the Turks…”12


“During the fifth period we saw only calamities and devastation, oppression of Catholics by tyrants and heretics, executions of kings and conspiracies to set up republics but by the hand of God almighty there occurs so wonderful a change during the sixth period that no one can humanly visualize it. The powerful Monarch, who is sent from God, will uproot every Republic. He will submit everything to this authority and he will show great zeal for the true church of Christ. The empire of the Mohamedans will be broken up and the monarch will reign in the east as well as in the west. All nations will come to worship God... here will be many saints and doctors of the church on earth. Peace will reign over the whole earth because God will bind Satan for a number of years before the days of the Son of Perdition. No one will be able to pervert the word of God since during the sixth period there will be an ecumenical council which will be the greatest of all councils. By the grace of God, by the power of the great Monarch, by the authority of the holy pontiff and by union of all the most devout princes atheism and every heresy will be banished from the earth. The council will define the true sense of Holy Scripture and this will be beloved and accepted by everyone.” 13



“When everything has been ruined by war; when Catholics are hard pressed by traitorous co-religionists and heretics, then the Hand of Almighty God will work a marvellous change, something apparently impossible according to human understanding. There will rise a valiant monarch anointed by God. He will be a Catholic, a descendant of Louis IX, yet a descendant of an ancient imperial German family, born in exile. He will rule supreme in temporal matters. The Pope will rule supreme in spiritual matters at the same time. Persecution will cease and justice shall rule. Religion seems to be suppressed, but by the changes of entire kingdoms it will be made more firm….He will root out false doctrines... His dominion will extend from the East to the West. All nations will adore God their Lord according to the Catholic teaching. There will be many wise and just men. The people will love justice, and peace will reign over the whole earth, for divine power will bind Satan for many years until the coming of the Son of Perdition.” 14



“The reign of the Great Ruler may be compared with that of Caesar Augustus who became Emperor after his victory over his enemies, thereby giving peace to the world, also with the reign of Constantine the Great, who was sent by God, after severe persecution, to deliver both the Church and State. By his victories on water and land he brought the Roman Empire under subjection which he then ruled in peace” 15

....

“[After a world war] will come a new period, in which two mighty ones will face each other. The wrangle between these two will begin in the second half of the twentieth century. It will overthrow mountains and silt up rivers. A great change will come to pass, such as no mortal man will have expected; Heaven and Hell will confront each other in this struggle, old states will perish and light and darkness will be pitted against each other with swords, but it will be swords of a different fashion. With these swords it will be possible to cut up the skies and split the earth. A great lament will come over all mankind and only a small batch will survive the storm, the pestilence and the horror. And neither of the two adversaries will conquer nor be vanquished. Both mighty ones will lie on the ground, and a new mankind will come into existence. God possesses the key to everything. Blessed is he who will then be able to praise him, having obeyed all his commandments. And the great monarch of the world will create new laws for the new mankind and will cause a new age to begin, in which there will be only one flock and one shepherd, and peace will be of long, long duration, for the glory of God in heaven and on earth…” 20


“Now the Great Monarch also will dominate over all the beasts of the earth, that is to say over the barbarian nations, over the rebellious peoples, over the heretic republics and over all men dominated by their evil passions…”21


“It is in that age that the relation of the sixth Spirit of the Lord will be known, that is to say the Spirit of Wisdom that God diffuses over all the surfaces of the globes in those times. For men will fear the Lord their God, they will observe the law and serve it with all their heart. The sciences will be multiplied and complete on the earth. The Holy Scriptures will be unanimously understood, without controversy and without the errors of heresies. Men will be enlightened, so much as in the natural sciences and in the celestial sciences…” 22

“Finally, the Sixth Church, the Church of Philadelphia, is the type of this sixth age, for Philadelphia signifies friendship of brothers, and again guarding the heritage in union with the Lord. Now all these characters convene perfectly in the sixth age, in which they will have love, concord and perfect peace and in which the powerful Monarch will have to consider almost the entire world as his heritage. He will deliver up the earth, with the aid of the Lord his God from all his enemies, of ruin and of all evil…” 23

Ephesus represents the apostolic age, which at its close found the church faithful in doctrine but lacking in its first love. Smyrna represents the age of persecutions. Pergamus represents the time of illumination from the Fathers, especially in the East, together with Balaam-like heresies. Thyatira represents the Church flourishing in peace in the high middle ages, especially in the West, but having Jezebel-like religious harlotries in its midst. Sardis is our own time, the age of affliction. The church suffering many heresies. ("You have a name that you are alive, but you are dead"). This brings us to Philadelphia, the faithful church, which represents the time ahead of us, the age of peace promised by the various saints, when multitudes will live in perfect harmony with each other. The corruption of the succeeding Laodicean age which will see the rise of Antichrist, is the final age in our mindset and a whole age and a bit lies between us and that time - perhaps thousands of years or more.

Lunitik

Thank you for this, although personally I do not believe in any "end of the world" type scenarios. James said that Christ marked the end of the world also, and yet records show the world merrily kept plodding along. I think things essentially will repeat, where most of the world doesn't even realize the end of the world happened. I certainly feel like that long range communication and other technologies have recreated the world, and see many empathetic movements in the world that show a change in the mindset of billions world wide. Christ said that no one will know the time until the seal is opened, so anything looking on it in a predictive way is probably wrong - not that I am telling you anything related to Baha'u'llah breaking the seal is correct, that is for you to decide.

I have seen Christians describe these as early Christian Churches, now you are saying they are different ages of the Church. I really honestly hope it is not so exclusive and rather includes all of humanity and its faithful (in God, not only Jesus) as without this, there will never be the perfect peace described. Well, unless you believe most of the human race will be killed off, but I really don't see why anyone would want to serve such a destructive God.

Yeshua

Hey

We believe that there will be a consummation of this world many hundreds of thousands, perhaps, of years from now. Or maybe longer We Catholics don't dwell much on "End Times" though, like some Evangelicals who seem rather morbidly obsessed with proposed world destructions. We look forward rather to an Age of World Peace which could last many thousands of years. It could be a million years, we just don't know or care. What we do care about though is spreading the love of Christ and making this world a better place, so that peace and harmony can reign throughout the cosmos. We aim to achieve on earth what Pope Pius called, "The Reign of Christ in the Peace of Christ"...this is a spiritual reigning of Christ in the hearts and minds of all human beings, not a literal rule, rather a condition of mind in which all people are Christ-like...."Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"...that is the Age of Peace and all people - of all religions, races and social classes - can recevive it in equal measure!

St. Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153) preached that in addition to the Second Coming, there would be some kind of intermediate appearance. "We know that there are three comings of the Lord. The third lies between the other two. It is invisible, while the other two are visible. In the first coming, He was seen on earth, dwelling among men; He himself testifies that they saw Him and hated Him. In the final coming, 'all flesh will see the salvation of our God, and they will look upon Him Whom they pierced.' The intermediate coming is a hidden one; in it only the elect see the Lord within their own selves, and they are saved. In His first coming Our Lord came in our flesh and in our weakness; in this middle coming, He is our rest and consolation. In case someone should think that what we say about this middle coming is sheer invention, listen to what our Lord himself ways: If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him. There is another passage of Scripture which reads: He who fears God will do good, but something further has been said about the one who loves, that is, that he will keep God’s word. Where is God’s word to be kept? Obviously in the heart, as the prophet says: I have hidden your words in my heart, so that I may not sin against you. Keep God’s word in this way. Let it enter into your very being, let it take possession of your desires and your whole way of life. Feed on goodness, and your soul will delight in its richness. Remember to eat your bread, or your heart will wither away. Fill your soul with richness and strength. Because this coming lies between the other two, it is like a road on which we travel from the first coming to the last. In the first, Christ was our redemption; in the last, he will appear as our life; in this middle coming, he is our rest and consolation. If you keep the word of God in this way, it will also keep you. The Son with the Father will come to you. The great Prophet who will build the new Jerusalem will come, the one who makes all things new. This coming will fulfill what is written: As we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, we shall also bear the likeness of the heavenly man. Just as Adam’s sin spread through all mankind and took hold of all, so Christ, who created and redeemed all, will glorify all, once he takes possession of all."

This intermediate coming, the one that will come like a "thief in the night" is the intermediate coming of Christ and the Age of Peace.

As for "Ages of the Church", you must remember that "Church" in Greek means "community" or "people". When these prophecies refer to "Church" they mean the Catholic Church - the universal People of God of all races, creeds and of both genders In our view the Church is the people of God which encompasses all the world and actually pre-existed the world. The Greek term that in its appearances in the New Testament is usually translated as "church" basically means "assembly". You can view it exclusively or inclusively, I opt for the latter

Also you must remember that these prophecies were written many hundreds of years ago in less developed times. We must interpret them with a 21st century mindset, understanding the limitations in which they were written.

So fear not! We are not been exclusivist

Lunitik

Still, for me at least, Catholics take things dangerously literally. You are right that it isn't as bad as other Christian branches but still is enough to cause me to avoid them. I think the Universal Community of God must be inclusive, as each tell us to love all we encounter, and as Abdu'l Baha has said, we should seek the light from wherever it emanates - not just from where we prefer. There are statements in the Bible that I personally find huge issue with, chief among them being "I am the only way", this is the foundation of exclusivity in the Christian community although for me - as other prophets have presented - it is actually God speaking through the prophet Jesus and actually it is God which is the path to eternal life. For me, this is best presented when Jesus says his apostles are now equal spiritually - fellow sons and equal friends - but this is seemingly ignored by Christians. It is amazing that Christians are actually taught by these apostles, not actually Christ, yet they generally do not understand that any prophet of God is equal not only those blessed in the Gospels.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunitik Christ said that no one will know the time until the seal is opened.....

For the record, Baha'is generally view Baha'u'llah's Kitab-i-Iqan (aka The Book of Certitude) as being this "unsealing."

Peace, :-)

Bruce

arthra

We should probably await for a response from Harve who initiated this thread so the following comments by me are really a diversion...

This would probably be considered a "pilgrim note" but there's nothing that really contradicts it:


... [Ethel Rosenberg] asked 'Abdu'l-Bahá about the meaning of the 'seven churches' mentioned in the Book of Revelation. 'Abdu'l-Bahá replied that the seven spirits and the seven stars mentioned in the Apocalypse refer to the seven letters of the alphabet that constitute the Most Great Name (in Arabic and Persian the title Bahá'u'lláh as well as the name Husayn-'Alí consist of seven letters each) -- and that the seven churches refer to the holy souls who were ignited with the fire of the love of their Lord.

~ Ethel Jenner Rosenberg, by Robert Weinberg, p. 70.




The following is from the appendix of the book "Apocalypse Unsealed" by Robert F. Riggs

New York: Philosophical Library, 1981.
ISBN 8022-2367-2 LCCN 89-81698


SEVEN ANGELS 1. the seven Prophets of the seven Faiths of Asia;
2. messengers of trial and punishment

SEVEN CHURCHES OF ASIA Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam,
Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Sabaeanism

SEVEN HEADS the seven dominions ruled by the Bani-Umayya: the
Roman-Byzantine dominion around Damascus, Persia, Arabia,
Egypt, Africa, Andalusia, Turkestan-Transoxania

SEVEN KINGS the seven dominions (ruled by kings) of the
Bani-Umayyad dynasty; five are fallen--the five dominions that
had been conquered; one is (sovereign)--Persia; not yet
come--Turkestan-Transoxania

SEVEN LAMPS seven Spirits (Manifestations of God)

SEVEN SPIRITS 1. Revelators of the Seven Churches: Jesus Christ,
Moses, Krishna, Gautama Buddha, Muhammad, Zoroaster, and
possibly Adam, Noah, or Enoch; 2. the seven letters in the
names HYSYN 'ALY (Husayn 'Ali) or BHA'LLH (Baha'u'llah)

Source:

Apocalypse Unsealed: appendix E

I look to Joachim de Flora (c. 1200 CE) though for the concept of the three ages of the Church:

His theories can be considered millenarian; he believed that history, by analogy with the Trinity, was divided into three fundamental epochs:

The Age of the Father, corresponding to the Old Testament, characterized by obedience of mankind to the Rules of God;

The Age of the Son, between the advent of Christ and 1260, represented by the New Testament, when Man became the son of God;

The Age of the Holy Spirit, impending (in 1260), when mankind was to come in direct contact with God, reaching the total freedom preached by the Christian message. The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit, a new dispensation of universal love, would proceed from the Gospel of Christ, but transcend the letter of it. In this new Age the ecclesiastical organization would be replaced and the Order of the Just would rule the Church. This Order of the Just was later identified with the Franciscan order by his follower Gerardo of Borgo San Donnino.

According to Joachim, only in this third Age will it be possible to really understand the words of God in its deepest meanings, and not merely literally. He concluded that this age would begin in 1260 based on the Book of Revelation (verses 11:3 and 12:6, which mention "one thousand two hundred and sixty days").[2] In this year, instead of the parousia (second Advent of Christ), a new Epoch of peace and concord would begin, thus making the hierarchy of the Church unnecessary.

Joachim of Fiore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some Baha'is I know compared this to the present epoch where "the hierarchy of the church will be unnecessary and for the new dispensation to be from a more spiritual interpretation..

The year 1260 in the Hijra corresponds to the year 1844.

Yeshua

Hey Arth

Thank you very much for this!

I have read of Joachim of Fiore. Generally speaking, Christians regard the Third Age as having begun at Pentecost, however if Joachim said it began later then that view must also be considered. He must genuinely have believed that the Third Age began in 1260.

The Vatican has had a ropy relationship with Joachim. Some regard him as being a "heretic", whereas others are trying to get him beatified. At the moment, nobody really knows what he is.

Some members of the Church criticized Barak Obama back in 2009 campaign for referring to Joachim of Fiore.

The US President referred in campaign speeches to Gioacchino da Fiore, or Joachim of Fiore, as a ''master of contemporary civilisation'' who had sought to create a better world. Drawing on the Book of Revelation, Gioacchino envisaged a "new age of the Holy Spirit" in which the Church hierarchy would cease to exist and Christians would unite with infidels in an "Order of the Just".

Dante refers to Gioacchino da Fiore, who lived from 1130 to 1202, as a ''gifted prophet'' in The Divine Comedy, and claimed that miracles occurred to those who prayed at his tomb. His followers have applied to the Vatican for him to be officially beatified, the step before sainthood.

Gioacchino da Fiore was the founder of the monastic order of San Giovanni in Fiore, whose followers are called Joachimites. Born near Cosenza in Calabria, he became a notary but underwent a spiritual crisis after a pilgrimage to the Holy Land, and lived as a hermit on his return to Italy.

He joined a Cistercian abbey as a lay brother and was later ordained, devoting himself to uncovering hidden meanings in the Scriptures, above all the Book of Revelation. He eventually founded his own abbey at Fiore in the Calabrian mountains as a branch of the Cistercian Order, with papal approval.


As I say Catholics are divided over him, although Mr Obama is clearly a fan He was a Catholic, if a bit radical, to say the least. He is traditionally called "Blessed Joachim of Fiore" even though he has never been officially beatified - yet, anyway.


Nevertheless even if you take it that the Third Epoch began at Pentecost, with the coming of the Holy Spirit, some Catholics also view each "epoch" as being tripartite as well - ie another subdivision of Father, Son and Holy Spirit - as well as the Seven Ages of Holhauzer's vision. It all gets quite confusing from there on But still very interesting!

As I say you can't quote him as an authority until the Church has fully decided if he is a saint or not but he might be so very intriguing

What's interesting is that as far as I am aware nothing of note happened in Christian 1260 So thats fascinating, that he could have been thinking of a different calendar. Meister Eckhart, though, was born in 1260. And he was an incredible man!

I have always found Catholic prophecy fascinating since there is a heck of a lot of prophecies and I find it hard to believe that they just came out of nowhere. Even Barak Obama is interested in Catholic prophecy lol! Some have disputed the evidence that Obama referred to him. It could have been a hoax or an off-hand remar, who knows, but its still funny that there was a media frenzy about it and it is said that there is a kernel of truth since Obama is said to be an admirer of him, though he may not have actually referred to him in his campaign. Whether Obama said it or not - Joachim is back in the limelight, read this:

Obama's speeches seem to espouse the utopia of a famous medieval monk and theologian: Joachim of Fiore, prophet of an "age of the Spirit" after the previous ages of the Father and the Son, a third and definitive age of peace, of justice, of humanity with no more divisions, not even among religions.

The intellectual kinship between Obama and Joachin of Fiore appears so strong that in 2008, the news came out in the media all over the world that the future president of the United States had referred to him three times in key speeches of his electoral campaign.

This website has an interesting write-up on Joachim of Fiore: http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/e...ing_gospel.htm

Yeshua

Hey Arth

Thank you very much for this!

I have read of Joachim of Fiore. Christians regard the new Age as having begun at Pentecost. We see Christ as the centre of history, the axis of time and not a mere "dispensation" in time as Joachim did. Joachim saw Christ as having had his Age, whereas we see him as being the centre of all time. Catholics reject the ideas of Joachim and side with his adversary, if you will, Saint Bonaventure.

I personally regard Joachim as being outwith the pale of Orthodoxy.

For example:

a current of Friars Minor called "spiritual" held that there was a totally new phase of history inaugurated with St. Francis; the "eternal Gospel" had appeared, of which Revelation speaks, which replaced the New Testament.

This group affirmed that the Church had now exhausted her historical role, and in her place came a charismatic community of free men guided interiorly by the Spirit, namely, the "spiritual Franciscans."

For Baha'is the idea of a new revelation supplanting the NT is acceptable, whereas for Christians it isn't. If Joachim taught this, as many of his followers did, then Catholics can't accept him.

He also had a lot of good things to say though, as in the following:

At the base of the ideas of this group were the writings of a Cistercian abbot, Joachim of Fiore, who died in 1202. In his works, he affirmed a Trinitarian rhythm of history. He considered the Old Testament as the age of the Father, followed by the time of the Son, the time of the Church. To be awaited yet was the third age, that of the Holy Spirit.

The whole of history was thus interpreted as a history of progress: from the severity of the Old Testament to the relative liberty of the time of the Son, in the Church, up to the full liberty of the children of God, in the period of the Holy Spirit, which would have been also the period of peace among men, of the reconciliation of peoples and religions

There's nothing wrong with per se, its only the idea that the age of the Holy Spirit is still to be awaited, whereas for Catholics it was inaugurated at Pentecost. Also some have accused him of tritheism, the idea that there are Three Gods since he divides history into "Father, Son and Holy Spirit". I do not accept the idea of Three Ages. I used to but since I've read into it further I've concluded that the Seven Ages is more scriptural.

I had copied and pasted the answer I wrote to Lunitik above about the "three Ages" from a word document I wrote about two years back, when I still adhered too the Three Ages belief. For waylaying you in that respect I must apologize, my opinion has progressed since then. Some Catholics still adhere to the Three Ages, but it is expressly not believed by the Church. The Seven Ages however, is a pure belief that the Church has never dogmatized but considers to be "Worthy of belief.

Joachim of Fiore announced a new monasticism and a totally new period of history, going beyond the revelation of the New Testament. St. Bonaventure rejected the idea of the Trinitarian rhythm of history. God is one for the whole of history and he is not divided into three divinities. As a consequence, history is one, even if it is a journey and — according to St. Bonaventure — a journey of progress. Jesus Christ is the last word of God — in him God has said all, giving and expressing himself. More than himself, God cannot express, cannot give. The Holy Spirit is Spirit of the Father and of the Son. Christ himself says of the Holy Spirit: He “…will bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you” (John 14:26), “he will take what is mine and declare it to you” (John 16:15). Hence, there is not another higher Gospel, there is not another Church to await. Because of this, the Order of St. Francis had also to insert itself in this Church, in her faith, in her hierarchical order.

This does not mean that the Church is immobile, fixed in the past and that novelties cannot be exercised in her. “Opera Christi non deficiunt, sed proficiunt,” the works of Christ do not go backward, do not fail, but progress, says the saint in the letter “De tribus quaestionibus.” Thus St. Bonaventure formulates explicitly the idea of progress.

I fear that Joachim's beliefs and visions could lead to a secular messianism. Salvation, for Christians, is spiritual, moral, ethical. I have always disliked the idea of "Secular salvation", as I would call it.

But we all have our own views Joachim may be right or he may be wrong. I leave that decision up to greater minds than my own!

However I personally reject him and side with Holhauser and the idea of the Seven Ages.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshua I have read of Joachim of Fiore. Generally speaking, Christians regard the Third Age as having begun at Pentecost, however if Joachim said it began later then that view must also be considered. He must genuinely have believed that the Third Age began in 1260.

In fact, Joachim had the year correct but used the wrong calendar!

The Fall 1972 issue of World Order Magazine had an excellent article by Howard Garey about this titled "1260 AD or AH--the Case of the Mistaken Date." It explained all this in detail.

Joachim determined that the date of the Return of the Christ Spirit was 1260 and announced this widely, getting a following called the "Eternal Gospel" movement.

Of course, 1260 AD came and went with no such "return," and Johchim got into big trouble with the Church therefor!

And in retrospect, it's clear to Baha'is that this Return did indeed happen on schedule in 1260--but AH (i.e., on the Islamic calendar, not the Christian one)! The corresponding Christian date was 1844 CE.

(There are prophecies of both the 1260 date and the 1844 date in both the Jewish scriptures (Daniel) and the Christian scriptures (Revelation).

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Yeshua

Hi Bruce

Thank you very much!

It is interesting to contemplate the idea that he might have had a vision in which God told him the correct year but with the Islamic calendar.

I like Joachim as a Christian. He was a very pious believer, a godly man. I'm just not sure of his theology however. The man I salute, the theology I'm skeptical of although not condemnatory. He has good points.

His views led to the Free Brethren Movement, did it not?

I'm quite convinced that Joachim would be Baha'i, rather than Catholic, if he'd been alive today. He anticipated the Baha'i belief in dispensations - he actually used the word 1,000 years before Baha'is did!

That is incredible.

This Baha'i Website explains it well: http://www.bahai-thinking.info/thinking009.html

According to the mystic and prophet, Abbot Joachim of Fiore (1130-1202), in the year 1260 an end would come to the power of the Church, and a peaceful, universal regime would arise with all the good religions together. Joachim called this New Jerusalem “the Third Age” under the global sovereignty of the Holy Spirit, after the lost Age of the Father (the realm of the Old Testament) and the declining realm of the Son (the world of the New Testament). But life on earth did not radically change in 1260 AD.

The numeral 1260 is mentioned in the Revelation of John, and is therefore called "apocalyptic". It refers to the return of Christ and the creation of a new heaven and a new earth. A chronological reference mark for the event is not given. But coincidentally the year 1260 in the chronology of Islam is identical to the year 1844 of the Christian era when in Persia a new era sprung forth.

In the Bahá'í Writings the "New Jerusalem" is described as the new era of mankind that began at the time of the Declaration of the Báb, in 1844: "The heavenly Jerusalem is none other than divine civilization, and it is now ready. It is to be and shall be organized, and the oneness of humankind will be a visible fact. Humanity will then be brought together as one." (‘Abdu'l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace)

Joachim was a good and saintly man, so I trust that he may indeed have had a vision of the future. It is a fascinating concept.

However according to what I've read Joachim of Fiore did not actually specify that the date 1260 would be when the Age of the Holy Spirit would begin. He rather said that three ages would define God’s Reign each lasting 1260 years (Using 1260 days or 42 months, numbers found in Revelation 11:3, 12:6 to equal 1260 years.). The age of the Father (Old Testament), The Age of the Son (New Testament), and The age of the Spirit (Millennial Reign). Even though He never set a time for the Millennial Reign of Christ, his followers believed it would begin in 1260 marking the “End of Days” because they believed that Christ was actually born in AD 1 and that the Christian dating system was correct when in fact Christ had been born about 4 BC - 1BC. So they guessed that if Joachim's 1260 hypothesis was correct then the Age of the Son would be over in the year 1260...the problem I see with this is that they based this prophecy on an inaccurate calendar which wrongly dated Christ's birth.

Hmm....I feel it might be a bit of a hasty jump to conclude that Joachim's personal understanding of Revelation as suggesting that God has a tripartite plan of salvation made up of three ages of 1260 years correlating to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit equals the year 1844 because it happens to be AD 1260 on the Islamic calendar...But I admit it is a fascinating coincidence. I'll read up on that Joachim of Fiore had indicated at the end of the 12th Century that the Antichrist was already born in Rome. If he really had had a vision from God, and God had given him the year 1260 and meant Islamic year 1260 (Christian year 1844), then why was he so convinced that the Antichrist was alive and ready to do his thing in the Twelfth century? I just don't see how genuine inspiration would lead to such glaring error. Joachim of Fiore actually predicted in 1190 that the Antichrist was already in the world, and that King Richard of England would defeat him. The Millennium would then begin, sometime before 1205, he stated. As I said the 1260 idea came from his followers and the mistaken assumption that Christ really had been born in 1260. If we date it from Christ's actual birth, which most scholars put at around 4 BC, you'd get the year 1256.

I've always been skeptical of assigning dates to apocalyptic events. Jesus warned us that, "of that time nobody knows, neither the Son nor the angels in heaven but only the father"...thus I have a problem with Joachim claiming to know. He is not the Son of God, nor a Manifestation, nor even an angel - so how could he violate this biblical passage and assign a date? There have been many predictions as to when the apocalypse would commence. Every generation since the time of Christ has believed it was living in the end times, many using scripture to support their belief.

Tyconius, 370 – 390, predicted Christ’s return based on Christ’s time in the tomb. He equated each day that Christ spent in the grave to 100 years, so since Christ spent three and a half days in the tomb He said Christ would Return 350 years after His Resurrection, in 381. He would outlive his prediction without Christ’s return. I believe this is the first ever recorded instance of somebody big assigning a date.

Melchior Hoffman, 1500-1543 Predicted the year 1533 William Miller, 1782-1849, Predicted 1843. Charles Taze Russell, 1852-1916, Predicted 1914 A.D. AD 992 A rumour that the end would come when the feast of the Annunciation coincided with Good Friday. This happened in 992, when Easter fell on March 22, and eager calculators established that the world would end before three years had passed. AD 1000 Christian authority all over the known world predicted the second coming in the year 1000. AD 1033 When the world did not end in 1000, the same Christian authorities claimed they had forgotten to add in the length of Jesus' life and revised the prediction to 1033. The writings of the Burgundian monk Radulfus Glaber described a rash of mass hysterias during the period from 1000-1033.
AD 1184 Various Christian prophets predicted the end of the world in the year 1184. Nobody seems to remember just why. Certain prophecies, during the time of the Third Crusade, began circulating in 1184, telling of a "new world order." These were believed to have been written by astrologers in Spain, and one of them, the "Letter of Toledo," appearing in 1186, urged everyone to flee to caves and other remote places, because the world was soon to be devastated by terrible storms, famine, earthquakes, and more. Only a few true belivers would be spared.
Pope Innocent III predicted the end of the world in the year 1284, 666 years after the founding of Islam - obviously inspired by the crusading atmosphere of the era.

Time would elude me if I was to go through all the predictions made by various Christian mystics down the years...we've had everything from 1306 to 1335, 1366, 1378, 1420, 1476...

Finally, writing in 1297, the friar Petrus Olivi predicted Antichrist's coming between 1300 and 1340, after which the world would enter the Age of the Holy Spirit, which itself would end around the year 2000 with Gog and the Last Judgement. So many other years were flown around for this proposed establishment of the "Age of the Holy Spirit", which makes me uncertain.

Yeshua

A list of predictions down the ages:

–2nd Century CE: Prophets and Prophetesses of the Montanist movement predicted that Jesus would return sometime during their lifetime and establish the New Jerusalem in the city of Pepuza in Asia Minor.

–365 CE: A man by the name of Hilary of Poitiers, announced that the end would happen that year. It didn’t.

–375 to 400 CE: Saint Martin of Tours, a student of Hilary, was convinced that the end would happen sometime before 400 CE.

–500 CE: This was the first year-with-a-nice-round-number-panic. The antipope Hippolytus and an earlier Christian academic Sextus Julius Africanus had predicted Armageddon at about this year.

–968 CE: An eclipse was interpreted as a prelude to the end of the world by the army of the German emperor Otto III.

–992: Good Friday coincided with the Feast of the Annunciation; this had long been believed to be the event that would bring forth the Antichrist, and thus the end-times events foretold in the book of Revelation. Records from Germany report that a new sun rose in the north and that as many as 3 suns and 3 moons were fighting. There does not appear to be independent verification of this remarkable event.

–1000-JAN-1: Many Christians in Europe had predicted the end of the world on this date. As the date approached, Christian armies waged war against some of the Pagan countries in Northern Europe. The motivation was to convert them all to Christianity, by force if necessary, before Christ returned in the year 1000. Meanwhile, some Christians had given their possessions to the Church in anticipation of the end. Fortunately, the level of education was so low that many citizens were unaware of the year. They did not know enough to be afraid. Otherwise, the panic might have been far worse than it was. Unfortunately, when Jesus did not appear, the church did not return the gifts. Serious criticism of the Church followed. The Church reacted by exterminating some heretics. Agitation settled down quickly.

–1000-MAY: The body of Charlemagne was disinterred on Pentecost. A legend had arisen that an emperor would rise from his sleep to fight the Antichrist.

–1005-1006: A terrible famine throughout Europe was seen as a sign of the nearness of the end.

–1033: Some believed this to be the 1000th anniversary of the death and resurrection of Jesus. His second coming was anticipated. Jesus’ actual date of execution is unknown, but is believed to be in the range of 27 to 33 CE.

–1147: Gerard of Poehlde decided that the millennium had actually started in 306 CE during Constantine’s reign. Thus, the world end was expected in 1306 CE.

–1179: John of Toledo predicted the end of the world during 1186. This estimate was based on the alignment of many planets.

–1205: Joachim of Fiore predicted in 1190 that the Antichrist was already in the world, and that King Richard of England would defeat him. The Millennium would then begin, sometime before 1205.

–1284: Pope Innocent III computed this date by adding 666 years onto the date the Islam was founded.

–1346 and later: The black plague spread across Europe, killing one third of the population. This was seen as the prelude to an immediate end of the world. Unfortunately, the Christians had previously killed a many of the cats, fearing that they might be familiars of Witches. The fewer the cats, the more the rats. It was the rat fleas that spread the black plague.

–1496: This was approximately 1500 years after the birth of Jesus. Some mystics in the 15th century predicted that the millennium would begin during this year.

–1524: Many astrologers predicted the imminent end of the world due to a world wide flood. They obviously had not read the Genesis story of the rainbow.

–1533: Melchior Hoffman predicted that Jesus’ return would happen a millennium and a half after the nominal date of his execution, in 1533. The New Jerusalem was expected to be established in Strasbourg, Germany. He was arrested and died in a Strasbourg jail.
bullet 1669: The Old Believers in Russia believed that the end of the world would occur in this year. 20 thousand burned themselves to death between 1669 and 1690 to protect themselves from the Antichrist.

–1689: Benjamin Keach, a 17th century Baptist, predicted the end of the world for this year.

–1736: British theologian and mathematician William Whitson predicted a great flood similar to Noah’s for OCT-13 of this year.

–1792: This was the date of the end of the world calculated by some believers in the Shaker movement.

–1830: Margaret McDonald, a Christian prophetess, predicted that Robert Owen would be the Antichrist. Owen helped found New Harmony, IN.

–1843-MAR-21: William Miller, founder of the Millerite movement, predicted that Jesus would come on this date. A very large number of Christians accepted his prophecy.

–1844-OCT-22: When Jesus did not return, Miller predicted this new date. In an event which is now called “The Great Disappointment,” many Christians sold their property and possessions, quit their jobs and prepared themselves for the second coming. Nothing happened; the day came and went without incident.

–1850: Ellen White, founder of the Seven Day Adventists movement, made many predictions of the timing of the end of the world. All failed. On 1850-JUN-27 she prophesized that only a few months remained before the end. She wrote: “My accompanying angel said, ‘Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.’ …now time is almost finished…and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months.” 10
bullet 1856 or later: At Ellen White’s last prediction, she said that she was shown in a vision the fate of believers who attended the 1856 SDA conference. She wrote “I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: ‘Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.” 11 That is, some of the attendees would die of normal diseases; some would die from plagues at the last days, others would still be alive when Jesus came. “By the early 1900s all those who attended the conference had passed away, leaving the Church with the dilemma of trying to figure out how to explain away such a prominent prophetic failure.” 12

–1891: Mother Shipton, a 16th century mystic predicted the end of the world: “…The world to an end shall come; in eighteen hundred and eighty-one.”

–1891 or before: On 1835-FEB-14, Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, attended a meeting of church leaders. He said that the meeting had been called because God had commanded it. He announced that Jesus would return within 56 years — i.e. before 1891-FEB-15. (History of the Church 2:182)

–1914 was one of the more important estimates of the start of the war of Armageddon by the Jehovah’s Witnesses (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society). They based their prophecy of 1914 from prophecy in the book of Daniel, Chapter 4. The writings referred to “seven times”. The WTS interpreted each “time” as equal to 360 days, giving a total of 2520 days. This was further interpreted as representing 2520 years, measured from the starting date of 607 BCE. This gave 1914 as the target date. When 1914 passed, they changed their prediction; 1914 became the year that Jesus invisibly began his rule.

–1925. Watchtower magazine predicted: “The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914; but it would be presumptuous on the part of any faithful follower of the Lord to assume just what the Lord is going to do during that year.”

–1919: Meteorologist Albert Porta predicted that the conjunction of 6 planets would generate a magnetic current that would cause the sun to explode and engulf the earth on DEC-17.

–1936: Herbert W Armstrong, founder of the Worldwide Church of God, predicted that the Day of the Lord would happen sometime in 1936. Nothing much happened that year, except for the birth of the compiler of this list — who has been referred to as an Anti-Christ. When the prediction failed, he made a new estimate: 1975.

–1940 or 1941: A Bible teacher from Australia, Leonard Sale-Harrison, held a series of prophesy conferences across North America in the 1930’s. He predicted that the end of the world would happen in 1940 or 1941. 7

–1948: During this year, the state of Israel was founded. Some Christians believed that this event was the final prerequisite for the second coming of Jesus. Various end of the world predictions were made in the range 1888 to 2048.

–1953-AUG: David Davidson wrote a book titled “The Great Pyramid, Its Divine Message”. In it, he predicted that the world would end in 1953-AUG.

–1957-APR: The Watchtower magazine quoted 6 a pastor from California, Mihran Ask, as saying in 1957-JAN that “Sometime between April 16 and 23, 1957, Armageddon will sweep the world! Millions of persons will perish in its flames and the land will be scorched.’

–1959: Florence Houteff’s, who was the leader of the Branch Davidians faith group, prophesied that the 1260 days mentioned in Revelation 11:3 would end and the Kingdom of David would be established on 1959-APR-22. Followers expected to die, be resurrected, and transferred to Heaven. Many sold their possessions and moved to Mt. Carmel in anticipation of the “end time”. It didn’t happen. The group almost did not survive; only a few dozen members remained.

Most Branch Davidians did die on 1993-APR-29 as a result of arson apparently ordered by their leader, David Koresh. They were not bodily resurrected — on earth at least.

–1960: Piazzi Smyth, a past astronomer royal of Scotland, wrote a book circa 1860 titled “Our Inheritance in the Great Pyramid.” It was responsible for spreading the belief in pyramidology throughout the world. This is the belief that secrets are hidden in the dimensions of the great pyramids. He concluded from his research that the millennium would start before the end of 1960 CE.

–1967: During the six day war, the Israeli army captured all of Jerusalem. Many conservative Christians believed that the rapture would occur quickly. However, the final Biblical prerequisite for the second coming is that the Jews resume ritual animal sacrifices in the temple at Jerusalem. That never happened.

–1970’s: The late Moses David (formerly David Berg) was the founder of the Christian religious group, The Children of God. He predicted that a comet would hit the earth, probably in the mid 1970’s and destroy all life in the United States. One source indicated that he believed it would happen in 1973.

–1972: According to an article in the Atlantic magazine, “Herbert W. Armstrong’s empire suffered a serious blow when the end failed to begin in January of 1972, as Armstrong had predicted, thus bringing hardship to many people who had given most of their assets to the church in the expectation of going to Petra, where such worldly possessions would be useless.”

–1974: Charles Meade, a pastor in Daleville, IN, predicted that the end of the world will happen during his lifetime. He was born circa 1927, so the end will probably come early in the 21st century.

–1975: Many Jehovah’s Witness predicted this date. However, it was not officially recognized by the leadership.

–1978: Chuck Smith, Pastor of Calvary Chapel in Cost Mesa, CA, predicted the rapture in 1981.

–1980: Leland Jensen leader of a Baha’i Faith group, predicted that a nuclear disaster would happen in 1980. This would be followed by two decades of conflict, ending in the establishment of God’s Kingdom on earth.

–1981: Arnold Murray of the Shepherd’s Chapel taught an anti-Trinitarian belief about God, and Christian Identity. Back in the 1970’s, he predicted that the Antichrist would appear before 1981.
bullet Rev. Sun Myung Moon, founder of the Unification Church predicted that the Kingdom of Heaven would be established this year.

–1982: Pat Robertson predicted a few years in advance that the world would end in the fall of 1982. The failure of this prophecy did not seem to adversely affect his reputation.

–1982: Astronomers John Gribben & Setphen Plagemann predicted the “Jupiter Effect” in 1974. They wrote that when various planets were aligned on the same side of the sun, tidal forces would create solar flares, radio interruptions, rainfall and temperature disturbances and massive earthquakes. The planets did align as seen from earth, as they do regularly. Nothing unusual happened.

–1984 to 1999: In 1983, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, later called Osho, teacher of what has been called the Rajneesh movement, is said to have predicted massive destruction on earth, including natural disasters and man-made catastrophes. Floods larger than any since Noah, extreme earthquakes, very destructive volcano eruptions, nuclear wars etc. were to happen. Tokyo, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Bombay will all disappear. Actually, the predictions were read out by his secretary; their legitimacy is doubtful.

–1985: Arnold Murray of the Shepherd’s Chapel predicted that the war of Armageddon will start on 1985-JUN 8-9 in “a valley of the Alaskan peninsula.”

–1986: Moses David of The Children of God faith group predicted that the Battle of Armageddon would take place in 1986. Russia would defeat Israel and the United States. A worldwide Communist dictatorship would be established. In 1993, Christ would return to earth.

–1987 to 2000: Lester Sumrall, in his 1987 book “I Predict 2000 AD” predicted that Jerusalem would be the richest city on Earth, that the Common Market would rule Europe, and that there would be a nuclear war involving Russia and perhaps the U.S. Also, he prophesized that the greatest Christian revival in the history of the church would happen: all during the last 13 years of the 20th century. All of the predictions failed.

–1988: Hal Lindsey had predicted in his book “The Late, Great Planet Earth” that the Rapture was coming in 1988 – one generation or 40 years after the creation of the state of Israel. This failed prophecy did not appear to damage his reputation. He continues to write books of prophecy which sell very well indeed.

–1988: Alfred Schmielewsky, a psychic whose stage name was “super-psychic A.S. Narayana,” predicted in 1986 that the world’s greatest natural disaster would hit Montreal in 1988. Sadly, his psychic abilities failed him on 1999-APR-11 when he answered the door of his home only to be shot dead by a gunman.

–1988-MAY: A 1981 movie titled “The man who saw tomorrow” described some of Nostradamus predictions. Massive earthquakes were predicted for San Francisco and Los Angeles.

–1988-OCT-11: Edgar Whisenaut, a NASA scientist, had published the book “88 Reasons why the Rapture will Occur in 1988.” It sold over 4 million copies.

–1990: Peter Ruckman concluded from his analysis of the Bible that the rapture would come within a few years of 1990.

arthra

Again this is a diversion in this thread.. since Harve was the one who had questions.. and not on prophecies.

I'd like to see what more he has in mind.

Yeshua posted above:

–1843-MAR-21: William Miller, founder of the Millerite movement, predicted that Jesus would come on this date. A very large number of Christians accepted his prophecy.

–1844-OCT-22: When Jesus did not return, Miller predicted this new date. In an event which is now called “The Great Disappointment,” many Christians sold their property and possessions, quit their jobs and prepared themselves for the second coming. Nothing happened; the day came and went without incident.

Well of course you know for us this period was the Declaration of the Bab and the prophecied fulfillment of the Return of Christ for Baha'is..

and you might as well mention where your material is from? I suspect much of it comes from

Failed end of the world predictions from 30 to 1920 CE

It presupposes the prophecies "failed" and also that they concerned the "end of the world" rather than an end of an age..

Also we have near duplicate posts from Yeshua above..hmmm..and I thought one post should do. and those postscripts are still all large and glaring too...

Lunitik

Yeshua, again you have listed more exclusivity within the Christian Church for which I have voiced my opinion already. You have displayed the Church siding with men over other men, both sides of the discussion are almost entirely irrelevant as neither are prophets are anything of this nature - although based on your words, it would seem Joachim could have been considered as such. As liberal as you represent yourself often on this site, still you are convinced that certain men trying to maintain power are correct and that they cannot be competed with despite their obvious motives. For me, the Council of Nicea and all else that Constantine did harmed the Christians more than anyone would be willing to admit. That was the start of uniformity within the Church, and it fought the true unity which had previously been established to this date.

You yourself have gone through and found an appreciation for the Gnostic Gospels, yet you are aware that such texts are banned because they present too much liberation for the individual which Constantine saw as dangerous. He was solely interested in a way to brainwash his troops and re-establishing solidarity within the empire under a new ideal. I do not believe this was ever the intent of Jesus, else why did he never make arrangements for his words to be recorded? The very earliest texts we have are still too late to be of the actual apostles - each would have been dead except perhaps John by this time. Within my own studies of the Gnostic Gospels, I see much correlation between them and Baha'u'llahs texts, yet apparently you do not see the same. I do not believe true Christianity exists in the world today, Christians are limited to the spirituality Constantine deemed appropriate for his subjects. Certainly, there were those of the various branches which were included, but it was Constantine which had the last say. He is the one which began creating uniformity, and now we see those disagreeing with what he decided claimed as heretics. You know as well as anyone that this heresy leads to greater spiritual knowledge yet it seems you're sort of ok with knowing your Church prefers the masses avoid any such growth. I simply do not understand how you can resolve this for yourself, and I pray you someday see the flaw.

This is of course the danger in becoming loyal to men rather than to God. Muslims actually only reaffirmed in writing those laws which Moses set forth, which Christ said he has come to uphold and yet many Christians refuse Mohammad and despise him because they decided Christ was only about love. We see in Revelations that each man will be judged by his deeds, yet Christians say if you repent your deeds do not matter. Mohammad corrected them on this matter even though it is in your scriptures. It is deemed that God is much more forgiving in the New Testament, but in actuality it only discusses a mission of three years. Due to this, Mohammad is considered a savage for merely behaving as those prophets have prior to him which have encountered strife. Muhammad did not deny or conflict with anything Christ taught at all, yet Christians miss the mark on him, they hate him because men have told them to. Due to this, you have subsequently missed the returning Christ, I see in Christian circles those longing to speed up his coming, longing to do all they can to fulfill the conditions of his return... all the time missing the fact that he already has. You use the words of mere men to justify blindness, yet still you were directed to this faith by the grace of God if you would see it.

Yeshua

Hey Arth

I hear you. Perhaps the website is a little biased, my reason for using it however was to illustrate my hesitancy in basing my belief in a religion on prophecy.

I understand that prophecies of former religions are important to the Baha'i Faith, just as Christian understandings of Old Testament prophecies are central to the validation of Christ's ministry.

So my apologies if you took any offence

And yes I posted my initial post and then went back to do edits but somehow posted another post instead with my edits I don't quite know how that happened.

Yeshua

The problem I see with the above is that your opinion of Constantine is not shared by the Baha'i Faith

Constantine was very highly regarded by Abdu'l-Baha, who said of him in authentic Baha'i scripture:

The first person to establish public clinics throughout the Roman Empire where the poor, the injured and the helpless received medical care, was the Emperor Constantine. This great king was the first Roman ruler to champion the Cause of Christ. He spared no efforts, dedicating his life to the promotion of the principles of the Gospel, and he solidly established the Roman government, which in reality had been nothing but a system of unrelieved oppression, on moderation and justice. His blessed name shines out across the dawn of history like the morning star, and his rank and fame among the world's noblest and most highly civilized is still on the tongues of Christians of all denominations - `Abdu'l-Bahá, in The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 80

Have you ever actually read Constantine's writings? A portion of them are available here on wikiquote: Constantine the Great - Wikiquote

He does not appear to be the kind of person you portray him as.

Also, I do indeed see much good in Gnostic and other apochryphal texts, however with the exception of the Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Mary and the Apochryphon of James, I recognize as do all scholars that the Gnostic Gospels were written much later than the canonicals. The Four Canon Gospels are our closest link to Jesus. The Gnostic material contains genuine traditions and sayings, but you have to sift through a lot of later material to find these. Gnostic texts are often built upon the basis of earlier texts which in turn stem from some ancient traditions.

All in all the most reliable records of Christ's teaching are:

1. The Four Canon Gospels
2. The Gospel of Thomas
3. Agraphon (Sayings preserved outwith the NT by Church Fathers or in fragments from lost texts)

After these three and only after these three should Gnostic texts, which are later, be consulted. In addition we have the rich and vast Sufi literature on Jesus.

Baha'u'llah defended the Four Gospels, saying that in essence they posses the true and essential teachings of Christ. Indeed he quotes and refers to the Gospels many times in his Writings:

"We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His *most great testimony* amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation? What *law* could be their stay and guide? ... Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!"
Íqán 89-90

Gnosticism has true traditions of Jesus in it. But it also contains long, complicated discourses full of archons and Greek myth which the first century Galilean Jew we call Jesus could not possibly have preached. Jesus was positive about life, whereas Gnostic texts say that the flesh is evil.

So Gnostic scriptures deserve respect and contain truth but not entirely. It is up to scholars to determine which parts of these texts could be built upon the basis of earlier texts from the time of the canonicals. All the quotations from Gnostic writings I provide are from parts of the texts which scholars deem to have plausibly stemmed from genuine traditions about Jesus.

Contrary to popular belief the Gospels of Thomas, Mary and the Apochryphon of James are not Gnostic texts. Jesus was not a Gnostic. He was a Jew. The Sayings of Jesus preserved as "Agrapha" are not Gnostic but Judaeo-Christian. Gnosticism is a form of Christianity which developed in the Second Century AD and had many manifestations - some positive and some more negative, lile Valentinianism.

Scholars do not regard Gnostic beliefs in archons, evil flesh or complex creation myths as stemming in anyway from Jesus. What they do believe is that in writing their texts Gnostics used ancient and genuine material and gnosticized this material. By de-Gnosticizing or searching for inconsistencies in the theology of these texts, scholars can de-code and resurrect genuine extra-canonical traditions about Jesus.

This is very different from a blank acceptance of these texts, most of which were written in the early third and fourth centuries AD about 100-200 years after the canon gospels.

There are many false views going around about Constantine. One has to read history with a skeptical and impartial eye. In the 19th and early 20th centuries some historians had a negative view of Constantine, in reaction to the near flawless adoration he had received before. Now, in most modern histories of his life written in the past five years, historians take a more balanced view: Constantine was a committed Christian who brought peace to the Roman Empire, proclaimed religious liberty for all peoples of all faiths under his rule, improved the social welfare of his subjects and generally speaking had a positive impact on history. Like all people though, he had his faults.

One of the greatest accomplishments of the Baha'i Faith, in my opinion, is its clarifying misconceptions about Islam and Christianity.

Christians traditionally have a very negative view of Muhammad. The Baha'i Faith corrects this.

Muslims have traditionally believed that Saint Paul and Constantine were false believers who usurped and warped the Christian Movement, even though there is nothing negative about these two great men in either the Qur'an or the Hadiths. The Baha'i Faith exonerates these two men and affirms anew their sanctity and holiness.

It thus saddens me when I read someone, such as yourself, perpetrating the very myths that the Baha'i Faith has so bravely and admirably dispelled ie regarding the Apostle Paul and Equal-to-the-Apostles Constatine.

As concerns Paul, I think that you have come to realize - through your faith in Baha'u'llah - that your initial view of him was wrong and that he actually was divinely inspired. I hope too that the Baha'i Faith will help change your view of Emperor Constantine the Great.

The Baha'i Faith also gave Holy Apostle to the Apostles and Equal-to-the-Apostles Mary Magdalene her true station of exaltation in history and dispelled many myths about her. The Baha'i Faith re-affirmed and indeed augmented the historical Christian veneration of the Magdalene, separating the truth from the falsehood.

Her titles in Christianity are:

1. Apostle to the Apostles - "The apostles proclaimed the resurrection of Christ to the whole world. But Mary proclaimed the resurrection of Christ to the apostles themselves: she was an apostle to the apostles!"

(The Apostles were the educators of mankind, whereas Mary Magdalene was an educator of the Apostles. They educated us but she educated them.)

2. Equal-to-the-Apostles - "Mary Magdalen is held by the Christian Church to be an 'equal of the apostles': because she was the first messenger sent by the Lord Himself to announce His resurrection."

Mary Magdalene was the first person to be given the title, "Equal to the Apostles". Empress Helena and her son Constantine the Great, both saints, were also to receive this special, most holy and elevated title as well, later on.

Holy Equal-to-the-Apostles Saint-Empress Helena - Constantine's mother - is also highly regarded in Baha'i scripture:

For instance, consider the day of Christ, which was the day of the renewal of the Kingdom of God. The people of the world attached no importance to it and did not realize its significance to such an extent that the sepulchre of Christ remained lost and unknown for three hundred years, until the maidservant of God, Helen, the mother of Constantine arrived and discovered the sacred spot. - Selections From the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, Pages 310-311: gr3

Abdu'l-Baha believed that it was only AFTER the time of Constantine that disputes started to break out:

After the time of Constantine, who was the protagonist of Christianity, divisions broke out among them. The point is this, that Christ united these nations but after a while governments became the cause of discord. What I mean is that Christ sustained a Cause that all the kings of the earth could not establish! He united the various religions and modified ancient customs. Consider what great differences existed between Romans, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians, Phoenicians, Israelites and other peoples of Europe. Christ removed these differences and became the cause of love between these communities. Although after some time governments destroyed this union, the work of Christ was accomplished - Some Answered Questions, Pages 7-11: gr12

Notice he gives Constantine the unique title of, "Protagonist of Christianity". This is a view Constantine himself would have approved for he said of himself in his authenticated writings (which I URGE you to read):

"By keeping the Divine faith, I am made a partaker of the light of truth: guided by the light of truth, I advance in the knowledge of the Divine faith. Hence it is that, as my actions themselves evince, I profess the most holy religion; and this worship I declare to be that which teaches me deeper acquaintance with the most holy God; aided by whose Divine power, beginning from the very borders of the ocean, I have aroused each nation of the world in succession to a well-grounded hope of security; so that those which, groaning in servitude to the most cruel tyrants and yielding to the pressure of their daily sufferings, had well nigh been utterly destroyed, have been restored through my agency to a far happier state" - Letter of Constantine to Shapur, King of the Persians 333 AD

Don't also forget that Constantine built the city of Constantinople, which bears his name. This city became first the centre of Christianity for many centuries, a rival to Rome and then the centre of the Islamic world when it became the seat of the Caliphate. Its name was only changed to Istanbul by Turkey in the early 20th century, however Constantine is still revered as its founder and it is still informally called "Constantinople", as Shoghi Effendi reminds us:

"Even the city of Constantinople, “the Dome of Islám,” apostrophized in such condemnatory terms by Bahá’u’lláh, which, after the fall of Byzantium, had been hailed by the great Constantine as “the New Rome,” and exalted to the rank of the metropolis of both the Roman Empire and of Christendom, and subsequently revered as the seat of the Caliphs, was relegated to the position of a provincial city and stripped of all its pomp and glory, its soaring and slender minarets standing sentinel at the grave of so much vanished splendor and power. “O Spot that art situate on the shores of the two seas!” Bahá’u’lláh has thus apostrophized the Imperial City, in terms that call to mind the prophetic words addressed by Jesus Christ to Jerusalem " - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 95-99: 98

Constantinople played a very important part in Baha'u'llah's life, and it IS and will always BE the City of Constantine, founded by him and for most of its existence named after him - the centre of both Christianity and Islam for many, many centuries and now important to Baha'is, although in a negative fashion, since Baha'u'llah was exiled there and suffered greatly in it. What this nevertheless demonstrates is Constantine's enduring legacy.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshua William Miller, 1782-1849, Predicted 1843.

It should be noted that Miller revised his prophecy to 1844 when it was pionted out to him that the calendar had no Year Zero.

(So he and his followers were indeed right about the date, but because they then took the prophecies literally, they missed the boat, so to speak!

Regards, :-)

Bruce

BruceDLimber

In fact, IOV the Battle of Armageddon has already taken place near the end of World War I, when British Generall Allenby defeated the Ottoman Turks on the Plain of Megiddo ("Armageddon") near Haifa, Palestine!

This also had the benefit of saving 'Abdu'l-Baha's life as the Turks were planning to crucify him.

Bruce

Yeshua

Thank you Bruce You can blame the author I quoted for this error lol

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshua Have you ever actually read Constantine's writings?

Please note that you must be cautious in doing so because some of "Constantine's writings" are in fact notorious forgeries!

The Donation of Constantine is a well-known example.

Bruce

Yeshua

Compare:

Lunitik on Emperor Constantine:

*Ironically Constantine's second most famous 'catchphrase' is "liberis mentibus", which means "With Free Minds". Contrary to what you claim the historical Constantine would never have tried to brainwash anybody or curtail liberty because he was out-right opposed to the use of force and intimidation, he is quoted as writing something along the lines of:

It is one thing acting with free will to enter into contest for immortality, another to compel others to do so by force through the fear of punishment. No one should greatly trouble another, rather, everyone should follow what his soul prefers - Constantine

Also Constantine merely convened a council at Nicea, he himself took no active part in the formulation of dogma. In fact he tried to get the Christian bishops to "acquiesce", to respect their fellow Christians and seek concord rather than in-fighting:

"How pleasing to the wise and intelligent portion of mankind is the concord which exists among you...what can be more honorable than gladly to acquiesce in the prosperity of all men? O holy faith, who givest us in our Saviour's words and precepts a model, as it were, of what our life should be, how hardly wouldst thou thyself resist the sins of men, were it not that thou refusest to subserve the purposes of gain! In my own judgment, he whose first object is the maintenance of peace, seems to be superior to Victory herself...clamor is always wrong, and from the collision of discordant elements both sparks and flame will arise. I protest, as I desire to please God and you, and to enjoy a happiness commensurate with your kind wishes, that I love you, and the quiet haven of your gentleness, now that you have cast from you that which defiled, and received in its place at once sound morality and concord, firmly planting in the vessel the sacred standard, and guided, as one may say, by a helm of iron in your course onward to the light of heaven" - Letter of Constantine the Great to the Antiochians 332 AD


Abdu'l-Baha on Constantine:

Constantine himself on Constantine:

And two modern historians on Constantine (2009 and 2010):


I leave you with the evidence to make up your own mind on Constantine

Yeshua

Oh I know I'm referring to his authenticated letters preserved by Eusebius in his history I'm well aware of the spurious Donation His letters have been authenticated as being his own, as well as the Edict of Milan.

arthra

Well in my view the thread has morphed into something beyond the intentions of the original post..

Constantine:

While Abdul-Baha gives Constantine some credit and his mother as a "maidservant of God" it does not mean He conferred on them any special status beyond that as Yeshua indicates above as "apostle to the apostles".

Mirza Abul Fadl also indicated in his writings the following:

It is therefore recorded in church history that during this long period, that is since the conversion of the Great Constantine down to our time, both in the days of Charlemagne and during the crusades, they repeatedly attempted to force the Jews to accept Christianity, but in the end they failed.

(Mirza Abu'l-Fadl, The Brilliant Proof, p. 20)



The subject of disagreement by the doctors as to the station of the Manifestation of God has been one of those abstruse and difficult questions to solve which proved beyond the power of great minds and baffled a mighty king Constantine the Great. For notwithstanding the assistance and cooperation of the great bishops of the East and West he could not reconcile the various parties to the Aryan controversy. Nay, during this long time the power of local councils, the sword of European powers and the verdicts of Inquisitorial Boards failed to remove divisions and schisms 28 caused by metaphysical discussions.

(Mirza Abu'l-Fadl, The Brilliant Proof, p. 27)

So while Constantine is recognized as a focal point of unity for Christianity he also is not highly elevated beyond that .. Consider the Emperor Asoka who united much of India under the Mauryan Empire .. To get to that place it was achieved by military means and blood shed but Buddhism was then recognized throughout India at that time. I see parallels between Asoka and Constantine..other than achieving a degree of unity they were not saints in my view...

There are also problematic aspects in the personal life of the "Great" Constantine:

On some date between 15 May and 17 June 326, Constantine had his eldest son Crispus, by Minervina, seized and put to death by "cold poison" at Pola (Pula, Croatia).[221] In July, Constantine had his wife, the Empress Fausta, killed at the behest of his mother, Helena. Fausta was left to die in an over-heated bath.[222] Their names were wiped from the face of many inscriptions, references to their lives in the literary record were erased, and the memory of both was condemned. Eusebius, for example, edited praise of Crispus out of later copies of his Historia Ecclesiastica, and his Vita Constantini contains no mention of Fausta or Crispus at all.[223]

From wiki:

Constantine the Great - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lunitik has shared his personal view on Constantine and the Council of Nicea.

Mary Magdalene:


Mary Magdalene was noted by Abdul-Baha and here "greater than them (the Apostles)":

Many queens have reigned who are remembered by their dates in history, and nothing more is known of them. But Mary the Magdalene is greater than them all. It was she whose love strengthened the disciples when their faith was failing. What she did for the world cannot be measured. See what a divine power was enkindled in her by the power of God!"

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 87)

All were shaken but Mary Magdalen. She was a veritable lioness. She gathered the others together and said, "Why do ye mourn? Did not the Christ foretell his crucifixion? Arise, and be assured. They have killed but the body; the reality can never die, for it is supreme, eternal, the word of God, the son of God. Why, therefore, are ye agitated?" Thus this heroine became the cause of re-establishing the faith of the apostles.

My hope is that each one of you may become as Mary Magdalen - for this woman was superior to all the men of her time and her reality is ever shining from the horizon of Christ.

Be pure - to be pure is to be selfless.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 50)

Gnostics:

As to the Gnostic writings in my belief we don't have any special regard for them and take no position on their veracity other than what scholars have suggested..

Also according to Shoghi Effendi Abdul-Baha did refer to "gnostics" in a similar way that he did to "Sufis" and "theosophists":

"Abdu'l-Bahá says that the main difference between the gnostics and the religionists is that the gnostics maintain the existence of only two worlds, the world of God and the world of the creature. The prophets, however, maintained the existence of three worlds the world of God, the world of the Will or the Word, and the world of created things. The prophets, therefore, maintained that a knowledge of God was impossible. As "

'Abdu'l-Bahá says man can never know God or even imagine Him. If he does that object is not God but an imaginary idol."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 29, 1929)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 510)

We do accept that the Gospels are inspired and contain spiritual truth but are not necessarily accurate...

Yeshua

Thank you Arth, an excellent post One small correction, I did not call Constantine or his mother "Apostles to the Apostles"...that is solely Mary Magdalene's title, I did call them "Equal-to-the-Apostles" since we believe that their contrubtions to Christian civilisation have been nearly as great as the original Apostles...but Constantine is not "Apostle to the apostles", that is given only to Mary Magdalene. But other than that I support and applaud all you have written above, thank you for your clear delineations.

If you look above you will see that I stated, "Constantine had his personal faults", its Lunitik's condemnation of his policies that I take stock with.

Also the Fausta incident has been resolved in the most recent historical writings on Constantine. All of the recent writings show the complexity of the situation, and how Constantine's involvement was either non-existent or partial. It is now largely thought that Fausta was trying to have an abortion, for example, since in Ancient Rome they believed that hot baths would kill babies in the womb. Her and Crispus definetly had a sexual affair, either he raped her as she claimed or it was a genuine affair, since all the ancient sources agree on this point.

So we can conclude that his wife and son betrayed him, had an affair. He exiled his son and his wife, in regret, tried to have an abortion which went horribly wrong as often happened before the advancves of medicine...As for Crispus his circumstances of death are really odd...There is no known punishment or use of poison as execution. The most likely situation was that Crispus, in his exile, committed suicide since that was considered the "noble thing" to do in Roman times. No one really knows about him though.

One historically possible scenario delineated now goes as follows...

David Woods:

"Crispus and Fausta had sex, whether consensual or rape (it is impossible to know). Fausta became pregnant. Constantine could hardly have ignored such a flagrant violation of family and political order. What was his response?...If they were both guilty, the death penalty for adultery was on the books, and Constantine was within his legal rights to condemn them...Yet there is no other evidence that Constantine applied the death penalty for adultery, and the manner of Crispus' death is unusual. He died by poison on the out-of-the-way island of Pola. Had he been executed, he would have been beheaded rather than poisoned. And the location is unusual too. Shortly before this incident Constantine had exiled a senator because of adultery, and it is possible that Crispus too was exiled. The exiled Crispus was possibly given the chance that many Romans before had been given, to bury his shame in suicide. Fausta's manner of death is even more unusual...Ancient medical treasises sometimes recommended hot-baths to induce abortion, and Fausta, pregnant by her stepson, may have died in a botched abortion attempt...In short...Constantine wanted neither Fausta nor Crispus dead...he setenced his son to exile and pressured his wife to have an abortion which, like many ancient abortions, went wrong"

Constantine also spent the rest of his life in grief and atonement for the loss of his wife and son...that's why he spent so much time building churches and praying...So who are we to judge him?

My only contention with Lunitik is his view of Constantine's policies which undeniably helped civilisation, introducing freedom of religion, liberty and the like.

Constantine had his personal character flaws. He was an Emperor. No easy job, even for someone with noble intentions.

Abdu'l-Baha called him "blessed" and compared him with the "morning star"...I've always deeply revered Abdu'l-Baha and if he praised Constantine and thought he was a true, noble Christian than who am to doubt him either? He was an excellent judge of character!

And the modern histories written with a positive view of him in the last five years just re-enforce Abdu'l-Baha's claims. The history on Constantine has changed over the years. And as we both know well - you can't trust wikipedia (I mean anybody can edit wikipedia articles. So I'd be war of believing what's written on it).

arthra

The following may also may be of interest even though it is a Pilgrim Note from Ten Days In the Light Of ‘Akká by Julia Grundy..

The topic is the House of Justice but has reference to the "Council of Constantine":

“The House of Justice must be obeyed in all things because it has been established by the Blessed Perfection. The Council of Constantine decided many things wisely, but its power and influence did not continue because it was not established by Christ Himself. It was founded upon the Words of Christ interpreted according to the ideas of men. The House of Justice will be appointed by the people. It must be obeyed because it is the Law of God expressed through the people by their own will and voice.”

“In this Day we are near to the Source of true Religion and the Law of God, before Revelation has been corrupted by the interpretations of men. The true believer is the one who follows the Manifestation of God in all things. After the Departure of Bahá‘u’lláh we are commanded to obey the House of Justice. I myself will obey the House of Justice because it is founded upon the Commands of the Blessed Perfection. The Council of Constantine did not survive because it was not founded by Christ; but in this Day the House of Justice has been established by the Manifestation of God. It is the center of true government and must be obeyed in all things. It is the Law of God embodied in the people, reflecting His Will and their need and desire, not blindly following command.”

Source:

Ten Days in the Light of Akka: The Universal House of Justice

Yeshua

Constantine's best friend and private physiscian, the Church historian Eusebius, was an Arian. Constantine actually tried to save Arius and stop him being condemned at the Council. Not very widely known!

Also I see nothing wrong written above. The Council obviously wasn't done by Christ since it was 4 hundred years later, it was wise I agree and it was intelligent men interpretating Christ's words to achieve concord and some basic essentials. Christians believe they were inspired, but they were still men so I don't actually disagree with that Pilgrim Note. I'd say its pretty darn accurate However even though I think its pretty much correct it is a pilgrim note with no authority or substantive authenticity, so I don't know if its really that useful. Something written by Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi directly, instead of hearsay, would be very useful though.

The truth is Arth, there is nothing condemnatory of Constantine in the Baha'i Writings. Even Shoghi Effendi called him the "great Constantine". The writings have nothing but praise for him. Please do not fall for 19th and early 20th century revisionism...they did it with Saint Paul as well...You often correct me for criticizing the Arabians, even though I do praise Al-Andaluz and its great advances in civilisation. The very same scholars who attacked Constantine...well you should see what they wrote about Muhammad...I could quote a handful but even I think its offensive...So, do you really think they're impartial?

History is ever-evolving. You'll always get those who are biased towards great figures like Muhammad, Constantine and Paul but history is history and its uneniable that the most recent accounts of Constantine's life and accomplishments have been very positive ie

"Under Constantine's policy of concord, the Church was flooded with new converts, not through coercion but by force of Imperial example...Eventually, Christian Emperors abandoned Constantinian religious policy...Constantine favoured the Church but gave serious attention to protecting the rights of non-Christians. One cannot help but muse how European history would have been different if Christians had had the patience to let Constantine's original settlement alone" - Peter J. Leithart

The first person to establish public clinics throughout the Roman Empire where the poor, the injured and the helpless received medical care, was the Emperor Constantine. This great king was the first Roman ruler to champion the Cause of Christ. He spared no efforts, dedicating his life to the promotion of the principles of the Gospel, and he solidly established the Roman government, which in reality had been nothing but a system of unrelieved oppression, on moderation and justice. His blessed name shines out across the dawn of history like the morning star, and his rank and fame among the world's noblest and most highly civilized is still on the tongues of Christians of all denominations - `Abdu'l-Bahá, in The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 80

The above is very praiseful of Constantine. It cannot be read any other way. Many of the Cardinals and Popes are frequently condemned by Abdu'l-Baha so he had no reason to be so full of praise for him, unless he genuinly believed he was "a good guy"

Yeshua

The subject of disagreement by the doctors as to the station of the Manifestation of God has been one of those abstruse and difficult questions to solve which proved beyond the power of great minds and baffled a mighty king Constantine the Great. For notwithstanding the assistance and cooperation of the great bishops of the East and West he could not reconcile the various parties to the Aryan controversy. Nay, during this long time the power of local councils, the sword of European powers and the verdicts of Inquisitorial Boards failed to remove divisions and schisms 28 caused by metaphysical discussions.

(Mirza Abu'l-Fadl, The Brilliant Proof, p. 27)

..."Aryan" that is a mispelling of "Arian"...

Aryan = Nazi racial theory

Arian = early Christians who regarded Jesus as a created being and lower than God

...Just in case anybody gets confused

Lunitik

Can someone explain how a peaceful and honorary person has been recorded as having his wife and son killed? I personally question his motives, he saw in his subjects a lack of loyalty developing, he used the adoption of Christianity which was widely contributing to this chasm as a way to consolidate once more. Whether it was Constantine or otherwise, it certainly became policy to force Christianity on the Empire.

Any text that did not place the Bishops in power was rejected, this is almost the universal common denominator within the rejected texts. It is also true to assert that many Gnostic texts are at least as old as the official Gospels. There is wide acceptance that even these Gospels were not written by the Apostles at all, since they were almost certainly dead when the originals were written. Thus we are forced to conclude that at the very least they are a fake asserting authority. While it is likely that they comprise all facets of the current teachings of that time as the Bishops had decided them, the whole point of Nicea was to effectively edit out all things which were not agreeable, to contain only those points that those summoned agreed upon. That Baha'u'llah quotes certain sections gives credence to them, but that he also apparently sides with the Gnostics on some points (such as the resurrection, and that flesh limits spirit - that to grow spiritually we must suppress the desires of flesh) appears to give them credence also. The Baha'i Faith is very much about sober spirituality, but alas there is certainly a strong mystic tone to much that is written. I find most concepts from the Yogi's, Sufi's, Gnostics, etc within Baha'u'llahs writings and for me he is initiating society at large into these mysteries while Abdu'l Baha also tells us to "accept the light from wherever it emanates". I also find it interesting that these spiritual souls are equally working towards much of what Baha'u'llah has written - only they are taking a more dynamic approach rather than spelling it out and telling us to do it.

That said, I also uphold what Baha'u'llah has written about the unwise decision to embark on the mystic path at this time, most mystical groups indeed warn of the dangers to sanity that this might cause. I believe this is the ultimate goal of progressive religion, that all might realize truths which no man today even in these groups can grasp. I personally dislike Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi's outright rejection of various beliefs as they create unnecessary contentions which is evidenced through Orthodox on these forums, and this has caused me to seek elsewhere for the common truths of all faiths, but I am sure they had their reasons - I have posited a theory in a thread about consultation to this end. I do not believe we are evolved enough yet to establish that which mystics have described.

Lunitik

Aryan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe what Mirza Fadl was actually referring to was likely:

In scholarly usage:
- Indo-Iranian languages (Iranian and Indo-Aryan) and their speakers

Lunitik

I still do not understand how the begotten can be equal with the unbegotten nor how the indivisible can sit at his own right hand, but we have beaten this topic to death at this point.

Yeshua

And you don't have to my friend I have promised myself that I will never, ever again have a debate over the Creed. It is a Baha'i Forum, as well, so it would be really inappropriate to debate Christian theology. We're only debating about the historical personage of Constantine, which is a historical discussion if anything. Right? lol No Creed debate! Please haha

Yeshua

He spoke of the "Aryan Controversy" in the context of the council of Nicea, which is a reference to "Arianism" and not "Aryan" as in genetics or linguistics I'm a little fussy with "Aryan/Arian" its like a pet hate - it just annoys me when people confuse the two terms. I know I probably have mild OCD

Yeshua

Umm...why don't you read up on the datings of Gnostic texts. You'll see that they are dated VERY late, either mid second century at the earliest to fourth century at the latest

And I agree the gospels were not written by the Apostles, they written by the immediate generation after the Apostles Sadly, that's as close as well ever get to Jesus and we all just have to accept that. Saint Paul's writings are actually the earliest of all Christian texts circa 40-55 AD.

Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark. Scholars practically universally believe this.

Luke definetly wrote Luke.

Matthew definetly came from early Jewish Christians around 70 AD. A proto-Gospel is thought to have been written by Matthew and then embellished by his disciples.

John was, in my opinion, originally written by Mary Magdalene.