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Old 07-12-2011, 08:39 PM   #1
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The Faith and homosexuality

We shrink, for very shame, from treating of the subject of boys.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 58)

Let's think about this statement by the Blessed Beauty. Why is Baha'u'llah shrinking from shame? We used in this statement probably infers the Manifestation and its human temple. One needs to consider that the sight/vision/grasp of anything He viewed was supernatural and likely overwhelming. He was not simply one of us, but an entirely different station. His retreats that one now visits were to relieve Him of this burden. If one was in His presence one could be sure that his whole existence could be displayed in the Lord of Hosts' faculty(I presume to think this). I do not know if anyone knows if this occurred by choice for Baha'u'llah or not. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah answered very specific questions that were not asked or written. Therefore for Baha'u'llah to dwell on unpure subjects at any length would have been painful in the extreme for Him/him. Baha'u'llah's station could be written as HE/he in my understanding. It makes sense that the successors would enlarge this meaning b/c they would not be so affected by exposure to the subject. This may be true for many subjects.

Presently it should be a little clearer to those who are willing to accept this view why more was not said by Baha'u'llah on this issue. No past religion has accepted homosexuality. A healthier, less decadent society with wholesome family lives will not have the number of homosexuals that result from today's lifestyles. If as I believe the cause is recognized as learned and/or developmental that will also provide options and solutions. It is an issue that is as hard or harder than alcoholism from which to recover. It is also a fact that huge number of alcoholics do not recover. It is the exception rather than the rule at this time.

Now if someone wants to dissect the Writings, ignore the blessing of the Covenant, and continue to argue this point, then there is very little one can say to him or her. It is so typical however in western materialism that people are not willing to work hard to accomplish more than average, nor are they willing not to have their way. Just to cover the bases and provide the information, below is the definition of perderasty which is another argument used to attempt to validate homosexuality.
ped·er·as·ty   /ˈpɛdəˌræsti, ˈpidə-/ Show Spelled
[ped-uh-ras-tee, pee-duh-] –noun
sexual relations between two males, especially when one of them is a minor.
 
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:09 AM   #2
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Shame

Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed and do not possess it.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 63)

More on this is that if you thrust meat in a vegetarian's face it is repulsive to him/her. It is a visceral unconscious reaction. They are not going to be able to discourse on the pleasures of rare steak. There is repulsion to things for which one has no attaction or avoids. This is not a justification for homophobia, but it does explain that there is a limit that is probably an appropriate one for acceptance for homosexuals. Baha'is have always accepted me. We do not reject individuals, we just expect them to live by the same standard, become firm in the Covenant, and progress spiritually.
 
Old 07-26-2011, 08:06 AM   #3
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freedom is surrender

Quote:
Originally Posted by cire perdue View Post
We shrink, for very shame, from treating of the subject of boys.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 58)

Let's think about this statement by the Blessed Beauty. Why is Baha'u'llah shrinking from shame? We used in this statement probably infers the Manifestation and its human temple. One needs to consider that the sight/vision/grasp of anything He viewed was supernatural and likely overwhelming. He was not simply one of us, but an entirely different station. His retreats that one now visits were to relieve Him of this burden. If one was in His presence one could be sure that his whole existence could be displayed in the Lord of Hosts' faculty(I presume to think this). I do not know if anyone knows if this occurred by choice for Baha'u'llah or not. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah answered very specific questions that were not asked or written. Therefore for Baha'u'llah to dwell on unpure subjects at any length would have been painful in the extreme for Him/him. Baha'u'llah's station could be written as HE/he in my understanding. It makes sense that the successors would enlarge this meaning b/c they would not be so affected by exposure to the subject. This may be true for many subjects.

Presently it should be a little clearer to those who are willing to accept this view why more was not said by Baha'u'llah on this issue. No past religion has accepted homosexuality. A healthier, less decadent society with wholesome family lives will not have the number of homosexuals that result from today's lifestyles. If as I believe the cause is recognized as learned and/or developmental that will also provide options and solutions. It is an issue that is as hard or harder than alcoholism from which to recover. It is also a fact that huge number of alcoholics do not recover. It is the exception rather than the rule at this time.

Now if someone wants to dissect the Writings, ignore the blessing of the Covenant, and continue to argue this point, then there is very little one can say to him or her. It is so typical however in western materialism that people are not willing to work hard to accomplish more than average, nor are they willing not to have their way. Just to cover the bases and provide the information, below is the definition of perderasty which is another argument used to attempt to validate homosexuality.
ped·er·as·ty   /ˈpɛdəˌræsti, ˈpidə-/ Show Spelled
[ped-uh-ras-tee, pee-duh-] –noun
sexual relations between two males, especially when one of them is a minor.
---------

thank you for this, cire perdue. when i first found this forum manymany months ago i stumbled across your comments/posts re homosexuality. i was holding onto a misconception re the baha'i's and their stance towards gays. your posts opened my eyes and mind and gave me the incentive to dig deeper. i meditated deeply on the subject and prayed to God for guidance, wisdom. It became brilliantly clear to me that my problem was NOT that i was gay. But that I had identified myself as gay. Being gay had become as much a part of my identity as being female. And THAT was the crux of the struggle for me. When i understood that, i gave it up. i declared my faith in Baha'ullah and turned to Him for help in overcoming something that was as natural to me as breathing. i surrendered my identity as gay. i assumed the role of lover of God - i am empty, Thou art All; fill me. that has become my strength and i don't believe for a moment it could have been otherwise. The words to the short obligatory prayer: 'i testify, at this moment to my powerless and to Thy might,' has been my rock. these identities are like weeds and continually crop and recrop up unless a power Higher then ourselves assists us. It is thru the love, the desire, and the absolute surrender -- emphasis on the continual practice of surrender, over and over. all my opinion, yes i admit. I do not assume it is the same for others. Your words were a God send. Your conviction, honesty and forthrightness....i thank you for it all. Those with ears will hear when the time is right.

blessings
 
Old 07-26-2011, 08:34 AM   #4
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For you if the road becomes steeper

Dearest Blessings,
This spiritual experience of yours must be treasured all your life. Do not minimize it ever. IF your road becomes difficult it will not be because you have done anything wrong, it may be because there is more to do. Most of the literature I have read is for men. Regardless it is important for one to bond with their own gender without sexual relations and to achieve those without sexual tension. Find someone that one is NOT attracted to and start there. We need to become whole, because we were not usually afforded the gender identity that we needed from our parents and peers. It is not done by marrying, but by becoming more yourself, then one can marry. I have never run into a gay woman who did not have terrible abuse issues. It is important to become yourself and not be affected by developmental failures.

Your response comes at time for me when I am having to renew my struggle, not sexually which I do seem to have put behind me largely, but in the peronsality development that I did not have, maturity. At my age it is a jolt, but not a surprise. Anyway i cannot tell you how special your response is and as I read what I wrote I cannot believe I wrote it. It is NOW apparent at least to me that I have been getting help from above to write, and that I need to pay attention to that as I struggle right now.

Marriage is a goal, but we may be too flawed or damaged. This Faith wants us to be with someone that is good for us however, so we have an advantage, b/c we need to be friends and know how we fit if we are to consider marriage. If possible it is wonderful to be a couple, but know yourself, do not fool yourself.

I am moved to tell you that if, IF it gets harder it is not that you have not achieved what you think, it is that it may requre more of you than you realized. I am not saying it has to get harder, but it may. I have not been able to heal and accomplish as much as I would like, but I would not change or give up what I have. Baha'u'llah loves me. I will be re-reading and following your example through my hard times. How interesting that your posts and interest has come when I, me, needed it. As you already know it is a journey, not a destination, and a process not perfection. Allah'u'abha.

PS Thank you so much for understanding what I wrote. It came to me and I was compelled to write it though it seemed un useable at the time. We have to be careful how we judge these things apparently.
 
Old 08-08-2013, 02:41 PM   #5
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My issue has always been the subtle prejudices that exist in the Baha'i community toward homosexuals. I find that this is very very well hidden by merely reciting Baha'i law on the subject, and thus it deflects any attention away from addressing issues of prejudice or discrimination.

I have not been directly discriminated against within the Baha'i community because I am gay, (at least not that I know of...) but suspicion, and a sense of second-guessing my sincerity,...definitely. Ignorance (superstitions) for sure, expectations of being "cured" when there is no cure, and of course, the intense discomfort of others around me when I bring up the subject.

Some say these attitudes are "cultural". Well, I find that attitudes vary across cultures, but for the most part, it's a pandemic. Secondly, we have to ask ourselves not if such attitudes are cultural, but if they are Baha'i.

Because one of the key tenants of the Baha'i community is elimination of prejudices of all kinds, it is very difficult for Baha'is to accept the fact that any prejudices may exist within the Baha'i community. Denial takes on an entirely different life within the realm of the Baha'i community.

I often wonder if eliminating prejudices has the same "weight" if you will, of a Baha'i law. Some well, say, well, no one is perfect everyone has prejudices, we are still in our infant stages of growth, etc. etc. etc. and to that I say, well, I'm not perfect either..so your sin covering eye towards me is appreciated as well.

To hold any negative attitudes toward any particular group of people does not "reform" them, it only worsens the situation. I think this can be found throughout history.
 
Old 08-08-2013, 04:31 PM   #6
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I have posted this before, but I think it's a good watch to post again.

It gets me every time and says it all in a short time.

 
Old 08-08-2013, 09:14 PM   #7
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To all that struggle to live up to the Laws of the Baha'i Faith,well done in making the effort and may God grant us all the strength to overcome what holds us back from the Blessed Beauty.

If we make the effort the blessings flow. Like turning on a tap, the more you turn it on the stronger the flow!

Shame I turn mine on and off

Regards Tony
 
Old 08-09-2013, 07:32 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blessings View Post
---------

thank you for this, cire perdue. when i first found this forum manymany months ago i stumbled across your comments/posts re homosexuality. i was holding onto a misconception re the baha'i's and their stance towards gays. your posts opened my eyes and mind and gave me the incentive to dig deeper. i meditated deeply on the subject and prayed to God for guidance, wisdom. It became brilliantly clear to me that my problem was NOT that i was gay. But that I had identified myself as gay. Being gay had become as much a part of my identity as being female. And THAT was the crux of the struggle for me. When i understood that, i gave it up. i declared my faith in Baha'ullah and turned to Him for help in overcoming something that was as natural to me as breathing. i surrendered my identity as gay. i assumed the role of lover of God - i am empty, Thou art All; fill me. that has become my strength and i don't believe for a moment it could have been otherwise. The words to the short obligatory prayer: 'i testify, at this moment to my powerless and to Thy might,' has been my rock. these identities are like weeds and continually crop and recrop up unless a power Higher then ourselves assists us. It is thru the love, the desire, and the absolute surrender -- emphasis on the continual practice of surrender, over and over. all my opinion, yes i admit. I do not assume it is the same for others. Your words were a God send. Your conviction, honesty and forthrightness....i thank you for it all. Those with ears will hear when the time is right.

blessings
I found your words very honest and true.
Yes no one when declaring says they are this or that when they sign the card. We declare for God and Baha'u'llah not for people's acceptance.

We all struggle with living up to the teachings of Baha'u'llah the very reason we are told not to look at each others imperfections.
Yes we all struggle to surrender our all to God, the very thing that the word "Islam" means.
As We are told in the writings God does not wish us to be shamed. Sorry am away from home and don't have my quotes to hand.

Blessings to you friend.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 08:29 AM   #9
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the faith and homosexuality 2 years later

this morning a link to this thread showed up in my inbox - its been two years since i wrote that post and had utterly forgotten it. cire perdu's words proved prophetic.
"I am moved to tell you that if, IF it gets harder it is not that you have not achieved what you think, it is that it may requre more of you than you realized. I am not saying it has to get harder, but it may. I have not been able to heal and accomplish as much as I would like, but I would not change or give up what I have. Baha'u'llah loves me..."

It did prove to be much much harder. In the end I realized that surrendering one's identity as gay is like surrendering one's identity as a human. And all the love in the world and high ideals just does not change that.
Like all intensely spiritual experiences, they occur at a level far beyond where we live and are impossible to hold onto; and that is a necessary thing. we live in the flesh. instead of being disappointed in myself for being unable to hold on to the experience i have a deeper conviction of myself as a human, a female who is, yes, lesbian. and the human need for a companion, love at the personal level, acceptance and understanding of that which i couldn't change and was unable to 'kill-off' for yet another stab at acceptance....i accept that as well.
the need for love is what makes us human. all the talk in the world by straight baha'is re chastity in the end doesn't work for one blaring reason....no matter how 'chaste' a baha'i might be, they look forward to marriage, sex, love, children. to say a gay is bound by no different rules then a straight is simply a prejudice unseen because every single person telling me this was married, some more the once, with many children. who among these people had any clue of what it is like to be utterly alone....and all the talk of friendship as filler or simply 'fixing' ones 'learned' preferences ; uh huh, walk a mile in my mocs.... sorry, just facts as i see them.

and being loved / tolerated by Baha'is because one has a 'Mental illness' and 'we all have something we struggle with' just wasn't help enough because so many people, however loving, seemingly suffer from many mental/emotional illnesses that i found myself being tolerant towards . tolerant and silent because we're all human and most of our flaws we manage to contain but not change. we learn to become more loving, more accepting, but still the same person.

i feel the Bahai's have an enormous way to go in an understanding of gays that goes beyond the reciting of scriptures or simple acceptance because its a mental illness. its just not enough. so, i ended up complete failure as Bahai's poster child turned straight. still, i'm thankful of the experience because i now have a greater peace and acceptance of myself as just a plain ole' human who isn't willing to cut out any more pieces of myself in an effort to conform and gain God's love.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 08:49 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blessings View Post
instead of being disappointed in myself for being unable to hold on to the experience i have a deeper conviction of myself as a human, a female who is, yes, lesbian. and the human need for a companion, love at the personal level, acceptance and understanding of that which i couldn't change and was unable to 'kill-off' for yet another stab at acceptance....i accept that as well.
the need for love is what makes us human. all the talk in the world by straight baha'is re chastity in the end doesn't work for one blaring reason....no matter how 'chaste' a baha'i might be, they look forward to marriage, sex, love, children. to say a gay is bound by no different rules then a straight is simply a prejudice unseen because every single person telling me this was married, some more the once, with many children. who among these people had any clue of what it is like to be utterly alone....and all the talk of friendship as filler or simply 'fixing' ones 'learned' preferences ; uh huh, walk a mile in my mocs.... sorry, just facts as i see them.

and being loved / tolerated by Baha'is because one has a 'Mental illness' and 'we all have something we struggle with' just wasn't help enough because so many people, however loving, seemingly suffer from many mental/emotional illnesses that i found myself being tolerant towards . tolerant and silent because we're all human and most of our flaws we manage to contain but not change. we learn to become more loving, more accepting, but still the same person.

i feel the Bahai's have an enormous way to go in an understanding of gays that goes beyond the reciting of scriptures or simple acceptance because its a mental illness. its just not enough. so, i ended up complete failure as Bahai's poster child turned straight. still, i'm thankful of the experience because i now have a greater peace and acceptance of myself as just a plain ole' human who isn't willing to cut out any more pieces of myself in an effort to conform and gain God's love.
Thank you, you wonderful human being you! The honesty and the foundation of all human virtues "TRUTHFULNESS" is an example for all to follow.

As a gay baha'i man, I too have failed at being the poster child for the gay turned straight. But of course, it's not our failure at all. These are expectations born of fantasy and superstition and are not grounded in any proven scientific framework. Like you say, "all the talk in the world" doesn't change anything. Even CP has to admit that, even though I'm sure that some of his supporters would experience discomfort at such an admission by many more than him; It bursts the bubble of the fantasy world they have created in their own minds. What they don't realize is that fantasy world is covering people like us who struggled and struggled and endured endless pain of wondering if your life is even worth living - the likes of which they will never experience nor understand.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 10:44 AM   #11
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Counseling and group work with peers which I have done a litttle bit of can make a big difference. Staying in your own solutions without getting out of your box is not going to make as big a difference in how one feels day to day. Accepting who you are is part of the solution and having peers who do the same is even more healing.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 12:38 PM   #12
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For what it's worth CP, been there done that. Also have been to several BNASAA conferences.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 01:02 PM   #13
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Hmmmmmm!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noexalt View Post
For what it's worth CP, been there done that. Also have been to several BNASAA conferences.
The group work I did made a difference for me. I have not expected 100% acceptance, and I have gotten 120%. I was initially known by a few as gay, but turned my back on it by myself and attempted the poster child route. I then found out it didn't work that way, and failed with sexual addiction. Once I overcame the sexual addiction and went to that group, I have had a lot of peace, not total, but enough. I don't worry about acceptance from others. Or about other's prejudices.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 02:43 PM   #14
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I guess that's where you and I depart CP. I do care about prejudice towards myself and other gays. I am concerned not only about direct acts of prejudice but also the all-so subtle forms as well. Prejudice attitudes also harm the perpetrators even though they do not see it.

Right now I think Russia is serving an example of how extreme that prejudice can be. The US has improved, but the history is still quite shameful. I personally feel that the Baha'i community has a lot of work to do in this area.

In the BNASAA circles I have met many other gay Baha'is. And yes, there are Persian gay Baha'is, and they have been raised in Baha'i families. I have met others from Baha'i families whose parents serve in for lack of better word "high ranking positions" and have "historically recognizable" surnames in the Baha'i community. I have met two gay Baha'is who have died from AIDS, and it wasn't from a blood transfusion either.

I cannot tell you any of their personal stories, because that would be a breach of confidentiality, but I can tell you that I can't hold a torch to what many of them have went through at all. - from their families, from other community members, from the administrative bodies - The situation in the Baha'i community is quite egregious. I continue to be frustrated because the issues of prejudice towards gays in the Baha'i community are not addressed in a systematic way. The guidance in letters about "prejudice and disdain, etc." are words and may suggest actions, but do not necessarily encourage in the way, say that other initiatives are encouraged which involve community meetings and deepening sessions.

I have not had to battle sexual addiction so I can't speak to that.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 02:54 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blessings View Post
I feel the Bahai's have an enormous way to go in an understanding of gays that goes beyond the reciting of scriptures or simple acceptance because its a mental illness. its just not enough. so, i ended up complete failure as Bahai's poster child turned straight. still, i'm thankful of the experience because i now have a greater peace and acceptance of myself as just a plain ole' human who isn't willing to cut out any more pieces of myself in an effort to conform and gain God's love.
Thank you for the follow up, it was a heartfelt reply to which we can all learn from!

I feel for your struggle and well done! It would be hard for one who is not Gay to have an idea of this issue, but I can assure you if we do not have this issue we have others! Some of these other issues are just as confronting in a spiritual sense.

Until medical science and dietary science is improved, there will be no easy solution to this issue IMHO.

But does one have to deny what is in them or just recognise it is there?

If we can come to terms with what we are and capable of, then we could use this in some positive way to strengthen our service to this cause? We know that the bounty and blessings are available if we make the effort, so in a way our issues/shortcomings could be the trigger to rise to greater heights?

Regards Tony
 
Old 08-09-2013, 03:28 PM   #16
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Okay,no exalt, now you make sense at last. Still I believe I should mostly focus on what is in front of me which is how I am being treated right now. I have had not complaints about prejudice, but I have not been out there as a gay Baha'i. I consider myself a homosexual who is a Baha'i, not a gay Baha'i. To me to do otherwise is to get into side issues when we need to grow, not fight inside batttles, but I have not seen what you have seen. I cannot fight for someone to be a gay Baha'i, but for homosexuals to be accepted as anyone else is. Being gay means to me you are still going out. I realize it does not mean that, but it still sounds like it. It's not a label I am going to stand up to defend. Sorry. I also believe in keeping it to myself except in rare instances. It's no one's business, but mine.ALso any Baha'i who does not familiarize him/herself on developmental pathways to homosexulaity is cheating him/herself out of a grace of understanding. Developmental theory will explain the most perplexing of the issues with the historical Baha'is having homosexual children. It is fairly easy to do, my parents surely did it.I highly recc'd Joseph Nicolosi's books.

Last edited by cire perdue; 08-09-2013 at 04:11 PM.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 04:21 PM   #17
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NIcolosi's work

BookFinder.com: Search Results (Matching Titles)

I have an MA in counseling, and this is the best work on homosexuality out there. HE is not a charlatan, but a terribly harassed hero. The best but toughest read is Shame and Attachment LOSS"

Last edited by cire perdue; 08-09-2013 at 04:23 PM.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 04:27 PM   #18
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P.S.

I read Nicolosi and became the poster child for the developmental theory of homosexuality.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 05:03 PM   #19
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Quote:
Okay,no exalt, now you make sense at last.
You have to admit that was a rude statement.

Quote:
Still I believe I should mostly focus on what is in front of me which is how I am being treated right now. I have had not complaints about prejudice, but I have not been out there as a gay Baha'i.
Another area where you and I come from a much different experience. I challenge you to try that. Have you been to a BNASAA conference? Does the majority of your community know you are gay?

Quote:
I consider myself a homosexual who is a Baha'i, not a gay Baha'i. To me to do otherwise is to get into side issues when we need to grow, not fight inside batttles, but I have not seen what you have seen. I cannot fight for someone to be a gay Baha'i, but for homosexuals to be accepted as anyone else is.
I understand what you are saying but labels I think may have less of a meaning to me than you. I just don't like the assumptions (sterotypes) that labels bring. Sorry, I have no interior decorating skills, no fashion skills, and don't do hair.

Quote:
Being gay means to me you are still going out. I realize it does not mean that, but it still sounds like it. It's not a label I am going to stand up to defend. Sorry. I also believe in keeping it to myself except in rare instances. It's no one's business, but mine.
Believe you me "going out" has never been high on my agenda. When I was in college, people would say "Oh, you're gay? What bar do you go to?" - Um, I don't go to bars.. I think this again is a sterotype.

Quote:
ALso any Baha'i who does not familiarize him/herself on developmental pathways to homosexulaity is cheating him/herself out of a grace of understanding. Developmental theory will explain the most perplexing of the issues with the historical Baha'is having homosexual children. It is fairly easy to do, my parents surely did it.I highly recc'd Joseph Nicolosi's books.
I think most people are generally familiar with the theories of father-mother roles, birth orders, abuse by family or peers, etc. etc. Again, understanding these things even on a deep, detailed level does not "change" one's orientation. Let's say Nicolosi is 100% correct. Still there are those like yourself who have not changed from gay to straight. And can we be honest enough to say that is the intended goal? I'm sure there are many people out there that support him and think that by knowing these things that gays should be able to change, and have their bubbles completely burst by learning that is not the case.

I have read online other's experience with Nicolosi and have not changed. Captivating information, yes, but no results.

My concern is not to feed people with unrealistic expectations. Some believe that homosexuality is so destructive that it will destroy society. However, Abdu'l-Baha has a different view.

And among the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh is, that religious, racial, political, economic and patriotic prejudices destroy the edifice of humanity. As long as these prejudices prevail, the world of humanity will not have rest. For a period of 6,000 years history informs us about the world of humanity. During these 6,000 years the world of humanity has not been free from war, strife, murder and bloodthirstiness. In every period war has been waged in one country or another and that war was due to either religious prejudice, racial prejudice, political prejudice or patriotic prejudice. It has therefore been ascertained and proved that all prejudices are destructive of the human edifice. As long as these prejudices persist, the struggle for existence must remain dominant, and bloodthirstiness and rapacity continue. Therefore, even as was the case in the past, the world of humanity cannot be saved from the darkness of nature and cannot attain illumination except through the abandonment of prejudices and the acquisition of the morals of the Kingdom.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 286)

If we really ask ourselves which is worse, homosexuality or prejudice, I think the Writings truly tell us the answer. My signature quote below also points to what makes the world "desolate" - Distinctions and Preferences which, IMHO, are expressions of prejudice. While I feel the quote has more to do with how we as human beings "rank" people as some being more important than others, this also applies to homosexuals being seen as less human than others.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 05:32 PM   #20
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Could I make an observation?

Could it be that there is less Prejudice than one Perceives?

I know a lot of Baha'is and I know a lot of them would not be Prejudice against a person because who they are and what they are struggling with. I would observe they would be willing to help.

Could the perceived Prejudice be because one thinks that change is not required and thus is looking for reactions?

The Prejudice word is used a lot these days and I would like to know how many times I have been called such. No one really knows another heart, so one could be best to forget about what others may think and get on with improving ones own life in our quest for perfection.

Would this not be a fair comment?

Regards Tony
 
Old 08-09-2013, 06:36 PM   #21
Jcc
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I think the issue is that it is not good enough as a Baha'i to think of himself as free of prejudice, and certainly not want to show any prejudice.

Abdu'l-Baha said "beware, beware lest ye offend any heart".

I have thought this many time over the past few years, that the Guardian said the most challenging issue is racism, but at the present time it is not racism any more it is homophobia. It seems odd that the term meaning "fear of" is used, rather that hatred, or even pre-judging. But fear is one of the deepest emotions, and extremely difficult to overcome.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 07:18 PM   #22
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcc View Post
I think the issue is that it is not good enough as a Baha'i to think of himself as free of prejudice, and certainly not want to show any prejudice.

Abdu'l-Baha said "beware, beware lest ye offend any heart".

I have thought this many time over the past few years, that the Guardian said the most challenging issue is racism, but at the present time it is not racism any more it is homophobia. It seems odd that the term meaning "fear of" is used, rather that hatred, or even pre-judging. But fear is one of the deepest emotions, and extremely difficult to overcome.
Good points! One would most likely be full of pride if one thought they had no Prejudices!

Regards Tony
 
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