Bab and Baha'u'llah coexistance?

aidan · 08-09-2011, 02:43 PM

As each of the manifestations are one and the same,would someone please explain how Bab and Baha'u'llah lived on earth at the same time

cire perdue · 08-09-2011, 03:23 PM

This is a subject for contemplattion. To my knowledge They never met, but They did exchange communication. My thoughts on the matter are not to take the meaning of "one and the same" too literally. On Pilgrimage one is made aware by artifacts of clothing and nail parings that Baha'u'llah was a human being who had a personality. This it true of The Bab as well. It is my understanding they were endowed with constancy. I don't know if anyone knows what that means. It is written that anytime Baha'u'llah needed knowledge that it was displayed before his eyes, and even that it was the knowledge and/or sources available at that time, so that It could be possible the facts stated could be different that other sources perhaps in England vs Persia. The revealed Word stayed within the context of knowledge in Persia at the time. There is some rub about Philosophers' dates and such that is in dispute, but that is a so what to me. However They were 2 men with distinct personalities.

I do not know if anyone knows what kind of oneness the two Manifestations shared. It's rather academic. I think They knew what was needed when needed. I think in Their presence our soul and history would be bared to view. I also suspect it was difficult for them to be around people all the time and bear this burden of sight. I think that is why the retreats were important to Baha'u'llah. I also remember that as He grew older it was said that the majesty He exuded became more pronounced.

Though people act as if it was an oversight or left open to error the statement about homosexuality possibly illustrates that Baha'u'llah did not want to dwell on a subject that was abhorrent to Him due to His power of vision into human affairs, when it was written that "We shrink..." from that subject (of boys). Remember He has also written that very few people have a sense of shame, and it stands to reason that the Blessed Beauty would not wish to elaborate on an abhorent subject that should be understood without much difficutly by the pure in heart or at least accepted by His followers. However in our decadent time nothing is too shameful to bring to light. In that context I do not believe it was an oversight, but abhorent.

armin · 08-09-2011, 05:35 PM

If I recall correctly they were both present in one occasion though I do not remember what the setting was; I'm inclined to say it was when the Bab was arrested. Regardless, during the Bab's lifetime Baha'u'llah's position was not revealed to him. So, technically speaking at least, there were no two manifestations present at the same time more or less in the same place.

Even if that was the case I don't see any problem with that. The source of their knowledge and revelations are the same but each hold their own unique and distinguished position, and physical being of course. Besides, like the Days of Concealment there is a purpose and many intricacies to each revelation beyond our understanding.

Fadl · 08-09-2011, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aidan

As each of the manifestations are one and the same,would someone please explain how Bab and Baha'u'llah lived on earth at the same time

If you accept that the manifestations could be one when they lived at different times (Baha'u'llah is return of Christ) then why is it difficult to believe they are one when they lived at the same time (the Bab is Baha'u'llah)?

The manifestation of God is a spiritual phenomenon, not a physical one. When Christ said "I and the Father are one" he was not speaking of his body, he was speaking of his spiritual reality as a manifestation of God.

The manifestations are all one reality, one purpose, and one authority. But they have all had different bodies, whether living at the same time or different times. The Bab and Baha'u'llah represent one and the same spiritual reality and in this sense they are one. Read from The Book of Certitude for a full explanation of this:

Quote:

"To them that are endowed with understanding, it is clear and manifest that when the fire of the love of Jesus consumed the veils of Jewish limitations, and His authority was made apparent and partially enforced, He the Revealer of the unseen Beauty, addressing one day His disciples, referred unto His passing, and, kindling in their hearts the fire of bereavement, said unto them: "I go away and come again unto you." And in another place He said: "I go and another will come Who will tell you all that I have not told you, and will fulfil all that I have said." Both these sayings have but one meaning, were you to ponder upon the Manifestations of the Unity of God with divine insight.

Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur'án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muhammad, Himself, declared: "I am Jesus." He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muhammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: "I go away and come again unto you." Consider the sun. Were it to say now, "I am the sun of yesterday," it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles" (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 18).

aidan · 08-10-2011, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fadl

If you accept that the manifestations could be one when they lived at different times (Baha'u'llah is return of Christ) then why is it difficult to believe they are one when they lived at the same time (the Bab is Baha'u'llah)?

The manifestation of God is a spiritual phenomenon, not a physical one. When Christ said "I and the Father are one" he was not speaking of his body, he was speaking of his spiritual reality as a manifestation of God.

The manifestations are all one reality, one purpose, and one authority. But they have all had different bodies, whether living at the same time or different times. The Bab and Baha'u'llah represent one and the same spiritual reality and in this sense they are one. Read from The Book of Certitude for a full explanation of this:

Fadl I did not say that his was challenging my beliefs per se,I am merely looking for help with understandind

Fadl · 08-10-2011, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aidan

Fadl I did not say that his was challenging my beliefs per se,I am merely looking for help with understandind

I'm sure your faith is very firm, Aidan.

LordOfGoblins · 08-10-2011, 12:15 AM

manifestations are dependant on God, not the otherway around. There is no codepandance between God and Baha'u'llah so you can throw the trinity away. Therefore God can manifest as many manifestations of God in as many places as he likes at any moment in time...

arthra · 08-10-2011, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aidan

As each of the manifestations are one and the same,would someone please explain how Bab and Baha'u'llah lived on earth at the same time

As Baha'is we do acknowledge the Bab and Baha'u'llah as Twin Manifestations...and the Bab acknowledged Baha'u'llah as Him Whom God would make manifest... and Baha'u'llah acknowledged the Bab as the Remembrance of God...

The Baha'i Era also begins with the Declaration of the Bab.. and we also observe the Feast of Ridwan...so these are unique to the Baha'i dispensation and it is more powerful for that reason.

Spiritually They are one... The same Spirit animates Them... but They have distinct Missions and distinct social ordinances are revealed as applicable.. So we observe the ordinances of the Kitab-i-Aqdas as they superceded those of the Bayan.

I recommend reading the Revelation of Baha'u'llah by Adib Taherzadeh to gain a better grasp of the history of the Faith.

cire perdue · 08-10-2011, 05:30 AM

[QUOTE=armin;22646]If I recall correctly they were both present in one occasion though I do not remember what the setting was; I'm inclined to say it was when the Bab was arrested. Regardless, during the Bab's lifetime Baha'u'llah's position was not revealed to him. So, technically speaking at least, there were no two manifestations present at the same time more or less in the same place.QUOTE]

I am certain They never met. I would think that The Bab did know who Baha'u'llah was or would be. The Bab named Him Baha. He sent Baha'u'llah very special prayers and tablets that were unique, one in our prayer books with explanation as footnote that it was written in a star shape. However Baha'u'llah did not know His own station that later would be revealed to Him in the Siyaah'Chal.

Fadl · 08-10-2011, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordOfGoblins

you can throw the trinity away...

I used to think so, but eventually came to realize that Baha'u'llah's explanation of the manifestations of God as perfect mirrors, which reflect God's image, is actually the trinity unravelled, if you ponder it. Similarly, the ringstone symbol works well to explain the trinity...give it a try, you'll see what I mean.

InvestigateTruth · 08-10-2011, 06:59 AM

"One day, the disturbing trumpet-blast shall disturb it [the universe] which the second blast shall follow.... Verily, it will be but a single blast..." -Qur'an 79:6,7&13

Fadl · 08-10-2011, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

"One day, the disturbing trumpet-blast shall disturb it [the universe] which the second blast shall follow.... Verily, it will be but a single blast..." -Qur'an 79:6,7&13

The truth of Allah is great!

armin · 08-10-2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armin

If I recall correctly they were both present in one occasion though I do not remember what the setting was; I'm inclined to say it was when the Bab was arrested. Regardless, during the Bab's lifetime Baha'u'llah's position was not revealed to him. So, technically speaking at least, there were no two manifestations present at the same time more or less in the same place.QUOTE]

I am certain They never met. I would think that The Bab did know who Baha'u'llah was or would be. The Bab named Him Baha. He sent Baha'u'llah very special prayers and tablets that were unique, one in our prayer books with explanation as footnote that it was written in a star shape. However Baha'u'llah did not know His own station that later would be revealed to Him in the Siyaah'Chal.

From what I just read Abdul'baha has explicitly said that they did not meet. Either the source of the story was misguided or my memory failed me.

aidan · 08-10-2011, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

"One day, the disturbing trumpet-blast shall disturb it [the universe] which the second blast shall follow.... Verily, it will be but a single blast..." -Qur'an 79:6,7&13

What a fabulus quote.Thank you so much dear friend

InvestigateTruth · 08-10-2011, 06:14 PM

That quote from Quran regarding the 2 trumpets following each other, also reminds me the 2 woes quickly after each from Bible:

"And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" Rev 8:13

"One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter." Rev 9:12

“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” Rev. 11:14.

"The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! .... This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb." Abdul-baha - Some Answered Questions

08-09-2011, 02:43 PM	#1
aidan Senior Member Joined: Jul 2011 From: n ireland Posts: 413	Bab and Baha'u'llah coexistance? As each of the manifestations are one and the same,would someone please explain how Bab and Baha'u'llah lived on earth at the same time

08-09-2011, 03:23 PM	#2
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,601	They are men also! This is a subject for contemplattion. To my knowledge They never met, but They did exchange communication. My thoughts on the matter are not to take the meaning of "one and the same" too literally. On Pilgrimage one is made aware by artifacts of clothing and nail parings that Baha'u'llah was a human being who had a personality. This it true of The Bab as well. It is my understanding they were endowed with constancy. I don't know if anyone knows what that means. It is written that anytime Baha'u'llah needed knowledge that it was displayed before his eyes, and even that it was the knowledge and/or sources available at that time, so that It could be possible the facts stated could be different that other sources perhaps in England vs Persia. The revealed Word stayed within the context of knowledge in Persia at the time. There is some rub about Philosophers' dates and such that is in dispute, but that is a so what to me. However They were 2 men with distinct personalities. I do not know if anyone knows what kind of oneness the two Manifestations shared. It's rather academic. I think They knew what was needed when needed. I think in Their presence our soul and history would be bared to view. I also suspect it was difficult for them to be around people all the time and bear this burden of sight. I think that is why the retreats were important to Baha'u'llah. I also remember that as He grew older it was said that the majesty He exuded became more pronounced. Though people act as if it was an oversight or left open to error the statement about homosexuality possibly illustrates that Baha'u'llah did not want to dwell on a subject that was abhorrent to Him due to His power of vision into human affairs, when it was written that "We shrink..." from that subject (of boys). Remember He has also written that very few people have a sense of shame, and it stands to reason that the Blessed Beauty would not wish to elaborate on an abhorent subject that should be understood without much difficutly by the pure in heart or at least accepted by His followers. However in our decadent time nothing is too shameful to bring to light. In that context I do not believe it was an oversight, but abhorent.

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08-09-2011, 05:35 PM	#3
armin Senior Member Joined: Mar 2011 From: san diego Posts: 141	If I recall correctly they were both present in one occasion though I do not remember what the setting was; I'm inclined to say it was when the Bab was arrested. Regardless, during the Bab's lifetime Baha'u'llah's position was not revealed to him. So, technically speaking at least, there were no two manifestations present at the same time more or less in the same place. Even if that was the case I don't see any problem with that. The source of their knowledge and revelations are the same but each hold their own unique and distinguished position, and physical being of course. Besides, like the Days of Concealment there is a purpose and many intricacies to each revelation beyond our understanding.

08-10-2011, 12:15 AM	#7
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 1,316	manifestations are dependant on God, not the otherway around. There is no codepandance between God and Baha'u'llah so you can throw the trinity away. Therefore God can manifest as many manifestations of God in as many places as he likes at any moment in time...

08-10-2011, 05:30 AM	#9
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,601	[QUOTE=armin;22646]If I recall correctly they were both present in one occasion though I do not remember what the setting was; I'm inclined to say it was when the Bab was arrested. Regardless, during the Bab's lifetime Baha'u'llah's position was not revealed to him. So, technically speaking at least, there were no two manifestations present at the same time more or less in the same place.QUOTE] I am certain They never met. I would think that The Bab did know who Baha'u'llah was or would be. The Bab named Him Baha. He sent Baha'u'llah very special prayers and tablets that were unique, one in our prayer books with explanation as footnote that it was written in a star shape. However Baha'u'llah did not know His own station that later would be revealed to Him in the Siyaah'Chal.

08-10-2011, 06:59 AM	#11
InvestigateTruth Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Canada Posts: 396	"One day, the disturbing trumpet-blast shall disturb it [the universe] which the second blast shall follow.... Verily, it will be but a single blast..." -Qur'an 79:6,7&13

08-10-2011, 06:14 PM	#15
InvestigateTruth Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Canada Posts: 396	That quote from Quran regarding the 2 trumpets following each other, also reminds me the 2 woes quickly after each from Bible: "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" Rev 8:13 "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter." Rev 9:12 “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” Rev. 11:14. "The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! .... This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb." Abdul-baha - Some Answered Questions