Ben Bet Beh

From another thread:
Christians believe this "essense" to be the Holy Spirit. According to Christianity, every believer who is Baptized is endowed with this gift of the Holy Spirit. Each Christian is of one spirit with Jesus and when they follow the teachings of Christ are one and the same with him in that sense. Do those of the Baha'i faith believe that only the Baha'u'llah is one and the same in this sense? Do all followers of Baha'i faith become Jesus one and the same in this sense?

InvestigateTruth

No body can be like the Manifestations of God. Manifestations of God are unique. According to Baha'i Scriptures, the World of Existance is devided into three.
The first division is God, who is preexistent and on whom the rest of creation is contingent. The second division is God's logos, which is the realm of God's commands and grace. This realm pervades all created things. The Manifestations of God, messengers from God, are appearances of the logos in the physical world.
The third division is creation, which includes the physical world.

1) -------------God--------------
2) -----Manifestations of God (like Baha'u'llah, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Krishna--
3) ------Creations------------

Thus, regular human are in the division 3, while Manifestations of God are in division 2, between God and human.

"...of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations, live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace. “But for Thee, I would have not created the heavens.” Nay, all in their holy presence fade into utter nothingness, and are a thing forgotten. Human tongue can never befittingly sing their praise, and human speech can never unfold their mystery." Baha'u'llah - Book of Iqan

cire perdue

The way things are said make a difference. Jesus and Baha'u'llah manifested the Holy Spirit, They had innate knowledge that is a result of being that very special Vessel which ordinary human beings are not ever going to be. We can mirror Jesus and Baha'u'llah by letting the Holy Spirit into our lives. Even Paul wrote about this reflected mirror, "..as in a mirror darkly" I believe, that explained Their special statement. (In older translations the mirror was not used, it was the reflection in water)

I relate to your statement about all being one and feel it is true among Baha'is that are firm in the Covenant. There is a unity among Baha'is that is beyond any other relationship I have ever experienced.

We are told to make no distinction between the Messengers of God, in that Their station is the same. HOWEVER the intensity of their revelation and its content were proportional to the people and time in which They appeared. That may show the differences that are perplexing. Jesus united and directly affected a part of the world, as did Muhammed. The difference in the cultures required a "fit" in with those people. I presume that They had supra-natural knowledge to which we have no access and that it was far above mine and yours, that they could see our whole life if we were in Their presence. IF we have the eyes to see and the ear to hear we will be able to acknowledge them. We are like those who heard the message in Israel, "The Messiah has appeared..." and we have set forth to see if this is true.

The Baha'i Revelation conitnues the essence of the teachings, the same morality, compassion, love, mercy, grace, the attributes of God. The message is specific to the needs of this day. That message could be said to be the same one Christ revealed, because it is from the manifestation of the Holy Spirit to bring about change in men just as Christ did. Do you doubt this change is sorely needed? As I knew that you cannot put new wine in an old skin, I accepted that this is the new wine in the new vessel for which we have prayed through the centuries. It remains the same wine of a new season.

Yeshua

Yes but don't forget the famous "Glory" passage:

"..Our competence is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry of death, chiseled in letters on stone tablets, came in glory so that the people of Israel could not gaze at Moses' face because of the glory of his face, a glory now set aside, how much more will the ministry of the Spirit come in glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, much more does the ministry of justification abound in glory! Indeed, what once had glory has lost its glory because of the greater glory; for if what was set aside came through glory, much more has the permanent come in glory! Since, then, we have such a hope, we act with great boldness, not like Moses, who put a veil over his face to keep the people of Israel from gazing at the end of the glory that was being set aside. But their minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day, when they hear the reading of the old covenant, that same veil is still there, since only in Christ is it set aside. Indeed, to this very day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds; but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit..." (2 Corinthians 3:5-18)

The last passage is an excellent illustration of how Jesus acts like a mirror for our soul, so that we can ascend in glory towards becoming the very likeness and reflection of God.

I count 14 "glory"'s in that passage!

Ben Bet Beh

It appears that only Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God. Moses and Muhammad did not. I'm unfamiliar with Baha'u'llah's reference of himself. Why does Jesus refer to himself differently than the others?

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Bet Beh It appears that only Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God.

In fact, Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of man.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Fadl

Hi Ben,

This is a very common misconception. You will not find anywhere in the Bible that Jesus called himself the son of God. It was others who said it of him. There are also many others besides Jesus called son of God or even sons of God, in the Bible so this is not a unique title peculiar to Jesus.

InvestigateTruth

Yes, among the Manifestations of God, only Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of God. Abdul-Baha has said in Some Answered Questions:


"...as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God."

...Furthermore, in the first chapter of the Gospel of John, verses 12 and 13, it is said: “But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believed on His name:
“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”


...The honor and greatness of Christ is not due to the fact that He did not have a human father, but to His perfections, bounties and divine glory. If the greatness of Christ is His being fatherless, then Adam is greater than Christ, for He had neither father nor mother.


To the best of my knowledge, every Manifestation referred to Himself with certain titles. For example, Abraham title was Friend of God, Moses "He Who held converse with God", Jesus, Son of God, Muhammad Apostle of God, The Bab, Remembrance of God, and Baha'u'llah is Glory of God.

Baha'u'llah in one of His Tablets also referred to Himself as "The Father":

"...Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom
is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He
said: `Ye cannot bear it now.'"

But these are only their titles. Their reality is the same:

"These attributes of God are not and have never been vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favoured, His holy, and chosen Messengers, are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light." Baha'u'llah, Book of Iqan

Ben Bet Beh

When asked if he was the son of God, he responded by saying "I am." So while you may technically be correct that he didn't call himself Son of God, Jesus acknowledged that he was the Son of God with his response to a question as to whether or not he was.

Ben Bet Beh

These titles must be of significance however would you not agree? Why is Jesus the Son? Why is Baha'u'llah the Father?

InvestigateTruth

I agree. Each of these manifestations had certain mission. Their titles may have to do with their missions. The main mission of Jesus might have been to create love between God and His children. He referred to God as the Father.
Baha'u'llah had many titles, which were also prophesized in scriptures. To Him, Isaiah, the greatest of the Jewish prophets, had alluded as the “Glory of the Lord,” the “Everlasting Father". Baha'u'llah taught the concept of "Manifestation", and He referred to Himself as the Manifestation of The Father.

arthra

I was thinking that one response to this is that each Manifestation has some unique stations.. Abraham was "Friend of God"... Kahlil.. Jesus in being "Son of God" is a spiritual station not meant to be literal..so Jesus refers to God as a Father..a close relationship between a father and son is meant not a biological sense.

Baha'u'llah revealed:

And further We have said: "He Who is the Father is come, and the Son (Jesus Christ), in the holy vale, crieth out: 'Here am I, here am I, O Lord, my God!', whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: 'The All-Bounteous is come mounted upon the clouds! Blessed is he that draweth nigh unto Him, and woe betide them that are far away.'

~ Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 57