Evolution and homosexuality - Page 2

Eftekhar Be Khoda · 11-26-2011, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshua

According to the time frame in the Gospel of Mark, the earliest gospel, Jesus was crucified at 9 A. M. and he died at 3 P. M. Therefore, Jesus was actually hanging alive on the cross for 6 hours.

Given that he had previously endured an entire night of beating, mockery and being pierced with a crown of thorns and spat on; and then early morning scourging - I'd say that's a long period of suffering.

Yes but cruxifixions in that same time period might take days. So 6 hours is fairly short for a Roman execution, even given the night before.

Boethiah · 01-03-2012, 11:25 PM

I have thought of some things about this subject. Take note, I am no geneticist.

To begin, I'm not aware of any causation link between any gene and homosexuality. That doesn't mean there isn't a correlational relationship between a gene and homosexuality, but there is no causation relationship. That being said, it would be irresponsible to say "Homosexuality is genetic" because we aren't sure. It might be true, it might be half-true, and it might not be true at all.

I'll do some more research on that, though. I'm not personally aware of any link. A causation link would have to be established in some sort of controlled laboratory/scientific setting.

Next, I'll elaborate on "half-true." I'd say very rarely is any psychological or physical problem caused by just one thing. It is oftentimes caused by several factors. For example, when Psychology was just becoming a legitimate study in the 1800's, there were basically two schools: Structuralism and Functionalism. It was an either-or phenomena. Psychologists now know that aspects of both schools of thought are valid in modern psychology.

That's a pretty far-off example, but there are a lot of unknowns with homosexuality.

If sexuality is the emotional and physical arousal to something, heterosexuality would by the emotional and physical arousal to the opposite sex while homosexuality would be emotional and physical arousal to the same sex. That is the only difference.

Actions made by either homosexuals or heterosexuals are completely up to the individual. A heterosexual or a homosexual may choose to act upon how they feel, or they may bottle it up. This is most often seen as celibacy in heterosexuals and repression in homosexuals. On another hand, individuals may choose to express themselves healthily. There are plenty of heterosexuals in healthy relationships or healthy lives, and there are plenty of homosexuals in healthy relationships or healthy lives. Whether or not it is spiritually sound is irrelevant.

And on another hand yet, there are heterosexuals and homosexuals that choose to be irresponsible with their urges. This could stem from irresponsible promiscuity to flagrant acts of immorality that society frowns upon, or even violence.

Just as there is no causation relationship between genes and homosexuality, there is no causation relationship that determines whether or not heterosexuals are healthy sexually or homosexuals are healthy sexually. Correlational studies have varied and only suggest, but they do not prove.

What I'm mainly trying to say here is that the situation is not very clear. It has been established by the American Psychological Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics that homosexuality is not a choice, but rather a state of being that is caused by what is most likely a combination of genetic, hormonal, and even environmental factors.

However, it still isn't correct to state "It's genetic!" or "It's not genetic!" when there isn't proper evidence.

If someone has proper evidence, please gimme some links. I'd like to read.

But even more importantly, we should treat all people with courtesy and human love, regardless of their sexual orientation. One of my favorite passages from the Hidden Words:

1. O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

That's about my opinion on the subject. What do ya'll think?

arthra · 01-04-2012, 04:47 AM

Yeshua... yeshua....

I don't know...but when you quote some Writings you put your own spin on them ..an example:

"...Reflect, and be not of them that have shut themselves out as by a veil from Him, and were of those that are fast asleep. He that married not (Jesus Christ) could find no place wherein to abide, nor where to lay His head, by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought. His holiness consisted not in the things ye have believed and imagined, but rather in the things which belong unto Us. Ask, that ye may be made aware of His station which hath been exalted above the vain imaginings of all the peoples of the earth. Blessed are they that understand..."

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 48)

Your spin:

In the Iqan Baha'u'llah praised Jesus for his ascetic - and therefore celibate - lifestyle, in which he lacked a permanent abode (a house, family, wife, possesions etc.) and held it up as the ideal of "detachment" in the cause of the Kingdom....

My comment:

Check the above quote again...

He that married not (Jesus Christ) could find no place wherein to abide, nor where to lay His head, by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought

Read the part again where it says:

"...by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought.."

Just a cautionary note.. interpreting the Writings is something that only has formally been devolved on Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

.................................................. .........

...and just for the record, Guatama the Buddha had a son.. Rahula..

He was not celibate as you should know before He joined some ascetics in the wilderness..

Later He left the extreme asceticism practices in favor of a more moderate lifestyle..

His cousin Devadatta was an advocate of extreme ascetic practices

Devadatta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and Devadatta later sought to end the life of Gautama..

Buddha, His Life and Teachings: Devadatta

True though Monasticism was as far as we know an Order approved by His followers...

arthra · 01-04-2012, 05:10 AM

Since we've been discussing marriage, celibacy, the Manifestations and so on I found a quote from Adib Taherzadeh that presents I personally believe a Baha'i view:

A Manifestation of God has two sides: human and divine. The human side performs a special role, veiling the splendours of the divine light that shines within His person. Therefore, a Manifestation of God is bound to regulate His life so as to express all His human characteristics. He has to eat, sleep and carry on His life like any other person. These limitations of human nature can become barriers for people in recognizing Him as the Manifestation of God. One of these is the marriage of the Manifestation -- an especially great obstacle for many of Christian background, who have been brought up to believe that celibacy befits a holy person and that marriage is inappropriate for a Manifestation of God.

On the other hand, the Manifestations of God are perfect in body as in spirit and attributing a lack of sexual urge to a holy person would amount to physical deficiency rather than a virtue. Perhaps the Christian view stems from the fact that Christ seems not to have been married when He declared His mission. However, Christ did not speak against marriage. That He Himself did not marry may be because His ministry was short and for most of it He was homeless, going from place to place until He was crucified.

Since the Manifestations of God share with the people all characteristics of human nature, it follows that they may live a normal life, engage in a profession, have a home, marry and raise a family. They also possess all human emotions. They are sensitive beings who experience feelings of joy and sadness, of pain and comfort, of likes and dislikes. What distinguishes them from the rest of mankind is that their spiritual side completely dominates their physical nature and they are absolutely detached from the material world.

~ Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, p. 18

cire perdue · 01-04-2012, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boethiah

I have thought of some things about this subject. Take note, I am no geneticist.

To begin, I'm not aware of any causation link between any gene and homosexuality. That doesn't mean there isn't a correlational relationship between a gene and homosexuality, but there is no causation relationship. That being said, it would be irresponsible to say "Homosexuality is genetic" because we aren't sure. It might be true, it might be half-true, and it might not be true at all.

I'll do some more research on that, though. I'm not personally aware of any link. A causation link would have to be established in some sort of controlled laboratory/scientific setting.

Next, I'll elaborate on "half-true." I'd say very rarely is any psychological or physical problem caused by just one thing. It is oftentimes caused by several factors. For example, when Psychology was just becoming a legitimate study in the 1800's, there were basically two schools: Structuralism and Functionalism. It was an either-or phenomena. Psychologists now know that aspects of both schools of thought are valid in modern psychology.

That's a pretty far-off example, but there are a lot of unknowns with homosexuality.

If sexuality is the emotional and physical arousal to something, heterosexuality would by the emotional and physical arousal to the opposite sex while homosexuality would be emotional and physical arousal to the same sex. That is the only difference.

Actions made by either homosexuals or heterosexuals are completely up to the individual. A heterosexual or a homosexual may choose to act upon how they feel, or they may bottle it up. This is most often seen as celibacy in heterosexuals and repression in homosexuals. On another hand, individuals may choose to express themselves healthily. There are plenty of heterosexuals in healthy relationships or healthy lives, and there are plenty of homosexuals in healthy relationships or healthy lives. Whether or not it is spiritually sound is irrelevant.

And on another hand yet, there are heterosexuals and homosexuals that choose to be irresponsible with their urges. This could stem from irresponsible promiscuity to flagrant acts of immorality that society frowns upon, or even violence.

Just as there is no causation relationship between genes and homosexuality, there is no causation relationship that determines whether or not heterosexuals are healthy sexually or homosexuals are healthy sexually. Correlational studies have varied and only suggest, but they do not prove.

What I'm mainly trying to say here is that the situation is not very clear. It has been established by the American Psychological Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics that homosexuality is not a choice, but rather a state of being that is caused by what is most likely a combination of genetic, hormonal, and even environmental factors.

However, it still isn't correct to state "It's genetic!" or "It's not genetic!" when there isn't proper evidence.

If someone has proper evidence, please gimme some links. I'd like to read.

But even more importantly, we should treat all people with courtesy and human love, regardless of their sexual orientation. One of my favorite passages from the Hidden Words:

1. O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

That's about my opinion on the subject. What do ya'll think?

I think you have been admirably clear in your analysis of the issue. AS a recovering homosexual who was also a sex addict with 22 years of sobriety let me add just a few things. First even IF homosexuality were to be found to be genetic, one CAN recover from it, just as one recovers from alcoholism which does have genetic causes or family patterns. I doubt there are healthy homosexual relationships in the way that a heterosexual relationship is healthy, or I doubt there are many healthy ones. The gay lifestyle is very, very unhealthy and only the naive should think so, promiscuity is the norm with lots and lots of adverse sexual practices. One only has to look on craigslist for evidence. There is an element of compulsion to gay sexual activity as well to indicate it results from faulty development. Authors Joseph Nicolosi, Richard Cohen, and Van Den Aardveg are rather congruent about all the issues.

4ourbestoutcome · 01-12-2012, 05:03 PM

cire perdue:
when you say you are recovering, does this mean you are now, or are heading toward heterosexuality?

Another spin on biology as the continuance of the species was referenced earlier.
What about infertility? Very many people are biologically infertile, or for that matter, outright sterile, e.g., a man with low or no sperm count.

Thoughts?

cire perdue · 01-13-2012, 03:58 PM

I have been in recovery from homosexuality since I became a Baha'i. The most success for me came in the late 1980's after encountering Joseph Nicolosi's work. There is very good material out there on the development of homosexuals. Now I don't expect the happy gays out there to accept this whatsoever, but the majority of the world does not accept the Baha'i Faith either. It does not matter if it is genetic or not, recovery is possible. Alcoholism is considered to have genetic factors and they recover nevertheless. That is not a cure either, but it sure gives them a life!!

4ourbestoutcome · 01-14-2012, 05:09 AM

Well, no, probably many won't accept the recovery model, true!
The alcoholism analagy is interesting-alcoholics who stop drinking are considered in recovery all their lives, but they will still always be an alcoholic. In your case though-would you see yourself being heterosexual?
Also though, since we were also touching on the biology of all this, when it's comes to nature, reproduction, etc, again, not every person is able to have biological children-countless people in fact, for reasons that are developmental, and how they were born, but it goes "against the grain" of the continuance of the species, but it does happen. And sure, there might be the nature's way then of saying there needs to be some measure of population control, but you have people who can't afford it having kid after kid like "giving birth gone wild" where the kids have all different fathers, end up in the system, on the streets, and so forth, and then they often start the same cycle themselves.
That may seem somewhat off topic, but it's a little related since obviously a homosexual couple cannot have a biological child, but at the same time, for many heterosexual couples, neither can they due to deviations in the "natural" order of things.

cire perdue · 01-14-2012, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4ourbestoutcome

Well, no, probably many won't accept the recovery model, true!
The alcoholism analagy is interesting-alcoholics who stop drinking are considered in recovery all their lives, but they will still always be an alcoholic. In your case though-would you see yourself being heterosexual?
Also though, since we were also touching on the biology of all this, when it's comes to nature, reproduction, etc, again, not every person is able to have biological children-countless people in fact, for reasons that are developmental, and how they were born, but it goes "against the grain" of the continuance of the species, but it does happen. And sure, there might be the nature's way then of saying there needs to be some measure of population control, but you have people who can't afford it having kid after kid like "giving birth gone wild" where the kids have all different fathers, end up in the system, on the streets, and so forth, and then they often start the same cycle themselves.
That may seem somewhat off topic, but it's a little related since obviously a homosexual couple cannot have a biological child, but at the same time, for many heterosexual couples, neither can they due to deviations in the "natural" order of things.

Unfortunately for me the homosexual urging is still there. It is bearable. However had I had fewer other problems I would be re-married. That would help. Unfortunately at my age and all that is probably not going to happen now. I know of others who are similar and much better than myself. It is a recovery state which I am very, very grateful for. I know others can go further than I did/have, but I have held my ground and believe it was the right thing to do.

4ourbestoutcome · 01-16-2012, 02:00 PM

cire perdue-that's an honest answer from you. If the urges remain, I just can't help but feel that it is the way you were born, and what you're doing is managing it in conjunction with your faith. I am happy for you that you are doing what you need. It does sound though that it is what it is, and that it's not like poof, you're suddenly now a converted heterosexual. It's just my belief that things don't work that way. I've never known anyone that was able to convert. Quite the opposite. I've known several people who in fact, ran from same sex relationships and even got married or otherwise in serious opposite sex dating relationships, only for it to be a horrendous disaster of deceit that they could not maintain. In other words, they aren't trying to be homosexual, and in fact, it was a painful realization. One person I know tried the whole conversion thing with all his heart and it just didn't work. He is not a promiscuous man out there living a dangerous life, picking up men and performing anonymous sex acts in bathroom stalls, etc. He's a professional business man in a committed relationship and you really wouldn't overtly realize he's gay. I don't feel qualified to pass judgment on him for being happy and in a committed relationship with one person. There are just as many single heterosexuals out there having sex with multiple different partners, strangers and so forth.
Anyway-I wish you well in your path, and I admire your courage and strength.

cire perdue · 01-17-2012, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4ourbestoutcome

cire perdue-that's an honest answer from you. If the urges remain, I just can't help but feel that it is the way you were born, and what you're doing is managing it in conjunction with your faith. I am happy for you that you are doing what you need. It does sound though that it is what it is, and that it's not like poof, you're suddenly now a converted heterosexual. It's just my belief that things don't work that way. I've never known anyone that was able to convert. Quite the opposite. I've known several people who in fact, ran from same sex relationships and even got married or otherwise in serious opposite sex dating relationships, only for it to be a horrendous disaster of deceit that they could not maintain. In other words, they aren't trying to be homosexual, and in fact, it was a painful realization. One person I know tried the whole conversion thing with all his heart and it just didn't work. He is not a promiscuous man out there living a dangerous life, picking up men and performing anonymous sex acts in bathroom stalls, etc. He's a professional business man in a committed relationship and you really wouldn't overtly realize he's gay. I don't feel qualified to pass judgment on him for being happy and in a committed relationship with one person. There are just as many single heterosexuals out there having sex with multiple different partners, strangers and so forth.
Anyway-I wish you well in your path, and I admire your courage and strength.

Urges still don't mean one is born that way. If one's first sex is with one's same gender and one is sexually active before one is a teenager, then I think urges have been conditioned. The urges are also for about 80% of pre-gender homosexuals (Nicolosi) a symptom of no same sex bonding at an early age, and have also been described as a impulse for heaing that goes awry when it becomes sexual. It is very, very hard and one has to have the motivation and desire to change. I had it as a Baha'i and there were times when I did not know how I would ever become sexual sober. Even then it was painful. One needs a support group, the proper knowledge, and a personal program to achieve this.

It does not matter if one is "born that way". Recovery is possible and that is important for Baha'is. Our position is not going to change on this issues. Thank God.

4ourbestoutcome · 01-18-2012, 03:28 AM

It sounds like it's been quite a road for you, and been a struggle. You have a lot of courage and motivation.

rushdy · 01-20-2012, 05:20 AM

O wow!

I don't think an ever-advancing civilization or the "New World Order" would be applied with such a state of mind.

Whether it is genetic or psychological, it doesnt give us the right to evaluate the condition with such ignorace. If they are happy, then let them be! You are not suppose to agree or disagree with homosexuality, you are just suppose to accept their existence. Just like Baha'is around the middleeast ask for the acceptance in their nations, not approval!

cire perdue · 01-21-2012, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rushdy

O wow!

I don't think an ever-advancing civilization or the "New World Order" would be applied with such a state of mind.

Whether it is genetic or psychological, it doesnt give us the right to evaluate the condition with such ignorace. If they are happy, then let them be! You are not suppose to agree or disagree with homosexuality, you are just suppose to accept their existence. Just like Baha'is around the middleeast ask for the acceptance in their nations, not approval!

Thank you for your naive input. It affects everyone when homosexuality is considered normal regardless of its cause. Baha'is believe in what will be the most beneficial to the most people. Everybody can't just do their thing without affecting others. What are you from the 1960's, carpe diem. FAR OUT, man. We are a bit past that.

Everyone has urges. IT does not make them go away to give into them.

01-04-2012, 04:47 AM	#43
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,055	Yeshua... yeshua.... I don't know...but when you quote some Writings you put your own spin on them ..an example: "...Reflect, and be not of them that have shut themselves out as by a veil from Him, and were of those that are fast asleep. He that married not (Jesus Christ) could find no place wherein to abide, nor where to lay His head, by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought. His holiness consisted not in the things ye have believed and imagined, but rather in the things which belong unto Us. Ask, that ye may be made aware of His station which hath been exalted above the vain imaginings of all the peoples of the earth. Blessed are they that understand..." (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 48) Your spin: In the Iqan Baha'u'llah praised Jesus for his ascetic - and therefore celibate - lifestyle, in which he lacked a permanent abode (a house, family, wife, possesions etc.) and held it up as the ideal of "detachment" in the cause of the Kingdom.... My comment: Check the above quote again... He that married not (Jesus Christ) could find no place wherein to abide, nor where to lay His head, by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought Read the part again where it says: "...by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought.." Just a cautionary note.. interpreting the Writings is something that only has formally been devolved on Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. .................................................. ......... ...and just for the record, Guatama the Buddha had a son.. Rahula.. He was not celibate as you should know before He joined some ascetics in the wilderness.. Later He left the extreme asceticism practices in favor of a more moderate lifestyle.. His cousin Devadatta was an advocate of extreme ascetic practices Devadatta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Devadatta later sought to end the life of Gautama.. Buddha, His Life and Teachings: Devadatta True though Monasticism was as far as we know an Order approved by His followers... Last edited by arthra; 01-04-2012 at 04:50 AM.

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01-03-2012, 11:25 PM	#42
Boethiah Member Joined: Jul 2010 From: Indiana Posts: 53	I have thought of some things about this subject. Take note, I am no geneticist. To begin, I'm not aware of any causation link between any gene and homosexuality. That doesn't mean there isn't a correlational relationship between a gene and homosexuality, but there is no causation relationship. That being said, it would be irresponsible to say "Homosexuality is genetic" because we aren't sure. It might be true, it might be half-true, and it might not be true at all. I'll do some more research on that, though. I'm not personally aware of any link. A causation link would have to be established in some sort of controlled laboratory/scientific setting. Next, I'll elaborate on "half-true." I'd say very rarely is any psychological or physical problem caused by just one thing. It is oftentimes caused by several factors. For example, when Psychology was just becoming a legitimate study in the 1800's, there were basically two schools: Structuralism and Functionalism. It was an either-or phenomena. Psychologists now know that aspects of both schools of thought are valid in modern psychology. That's a pretty far-off example, but there are a lot of unknowns with homosexuality. If sexuality is the emotional and physical arousal to something, heterosexuality would by the emotional and physical arousal to the opposite sex while homosexuality would be emotional and physical arousal to the same sex. That is the only difference. Actions made by either homosexuals or heterosexuals are completely up to the individual. A heterosexual or a homosexual may choose to act upon how they feel, or they may bottle it up. This is most often seen as celibacy in heterosexuals and repression in homosexuals. On another hand, individuals may choose to express themselves healthily. There are plenty of heterosexuals in healthy relationships or healthy lives, and there are plenty of homosexuals in healthy relationships or healthy lives. Whether or not it is spiritually sound is irrelevant. And on another hand yet, there are heterosexuals and homosexuals that choose to be irresponsible with their urges. This could stem from irresponsible promiscuity to flagrant acts of immorality that society frowns upon, or even violence. Just as there is no causation relationship between genes and homosexuality, there is no causation relationship that determines whether or not heterosexuals are healthy sexually or homosexuals are healthy sexually. Correlational studies have varied and only suggest, but they do not prove. What I'm mainly trying to say here is that the situation is not very clear. It has been established by the American Psychological Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics that homosexuality is not a choice, but rather a state of being that is caused by what is most likely a combination of genetic, hormonal, and even environmental factors. However, it still isn't correct to state "It's genetic!" or "It's not genetic!" when there isn't proper evidence. If someone has proper evidence, please gimme some links. I'd like to read. But even more importantly, we should treat all people with courtesy and human love, regardless of their sexual orientation. One of my favorite passages from the Hidden Words: 1. O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting. That's about my opinion on the subject. What do ya'll think?

01-04-2012, 05:10 AM	#44
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,055	Since we've been discussing marriage, celibacy, the Manifestations and so on I found a quote from Adib Taherzadeh that presents I personally believe a Baha'i view: A Manifestation of God has two sides: human and divine. The human side performs a special role, veiling the splendours of the divine light that shines within His person. Therefore, a Manifestation of God is bound to regulate His life so as to express all His human characteristics. He has to eat, sleep and carry on His life like any other person. These limitations of human nature can become barriers for people in recognizing Him as the Manifestation of God. One of these is the marriage of the Manifestation -- an especially great obstacle for many of Christian background, who have been brought up to believe that celibacy befits a holy person and that marriage is inappropriate for a Manifestation of God. On the other hand, the Manifestations of God are perfect in body as in spirit and attributing a lack of sexual urge to a holy person would amount to physical deficiency rather than a virtue. Perhaps the Christian view stems from the fact that Christ seems not to have been married when He declared His mission. However, Christ did not speak against marriage. That He Himself did not marry may be because His ministry was short and for most of it He was homeless, going from place to place until He was crucified. Since the Manifestations of God share with the people all characteristics of human nature, it follows that they may live a normal life, engage in a profession, have a home, marry and raise a family. They also possess all human emotions. They are sensitive beings who experience feelings of joy and sadness, of pain and comfort, of likes and dislikes. What distinguishes them from the rest of mankind is that their spiritual side completely dominates their physical nature and they are absolutely detached from the material world. ~ Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, p. 18

01-12-2012, 05:03 PM	#46
4ourbestoutcome Junior Member Joined: Dec 2011 From: US Posts: 14	cire perdue: when you say you are recovering, does this mean you are now, or are heading toward heterosexuality? Another spin on biology as the continuance of the species was referenced earlier. What about infertility? Very many people are biologically infertile, or for that matter, outright sterile, e.g., a man with low or no sperm count. Thoughts?

01-13-2012, 03:58 PM	#47
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,601	I have been in recovery from homosexuality since I became a Baha'i. The most success for me came in the late 1980's after encountering Joseph Nicolosi's work. There is very good material out there on the development of homosexuals. Now I don't expect the happy gays out there to accept this whatsoever, but the majority of the world does not accept the Baha'i Faith either. It does not matter if it is genetic or not, recovery is possible. Alcoholism is considered to have genetic factors and they recover nevertheless. That is not a cure either, but it sure gives them a life!!

01-14-2012, 05:09 AM	#48
4ourbestoutcome Junior Member Joined: Dec 2011 From: US Posts: 14	Well, no, probably many won't accept the recovery model, true! The alcoholism analagy is interesting-alcoholics who stop drinking are considered in recovery all their lives, but they will still always be an alcoholic. In your case though-would you see yourself being heterosexual? Also though, since we were also touching on the biology of all this, when it's comes to nature, reproduction, etc, again, not every person is able to have biological children-countless people in fact, for reasons that are developmental, and how they were born, but it goes "against the grain" of the continuance of the species, but it does happen. And sure, there might be the nature's way then of saying there needs to be some measure of population control, but you have people who can't afford it having kid after kid like "giving birth gone wild" where the kids have all different fathers, end up in the system, on the streets, and so forth, and then they often start the same cycle themselves. That may seem somewhat off topic, but it's a little related since obviously a homosexual couple cannot have a biological child, but at the same time, for many heterosexual couples, neither can they due to deviations in the "natural" order of things.

01-16-2012, 02:00 PM	#50
4ourbestoutcome Junior Member Joined: Dec 2011 From: US Posts: 14	cire perdue-that's an honest answer from you. If the urges remain, I just can't help but feel that it is the way you were born, and what you're doing is managing it in conjunction with your faith. I am happy for you that you are doing what you need. It does sound though that it is what it is, and that it's not like poof, you're suddenly now a converted heterosexual. It's just my belief that things don't work that way. I've never known anyone that was able to convert. Quite the opposite. I've known several people who in fact, ran from same sex relationships and even got married or otherwise in serious opposite sex dating relationships, only for it to be a horrendous disaster of deceit that they could not maintain. In other words, they aren't trying to be homosexual, and in fact, it was a painful realization. One person I know tried the whole conversion thing with all his heart and it just didn't work. He is not a promiscuous man out there living a dangerous life, picking up men and performing anonymous sex acts in bathroom stalls, etc. He's a professional business man in a committed relationship and you really wouldn't overtly realize he's gay. I don't feel qualified to pass judgment on him for being happy and in a committed relationship with one person. There are just as many single heterosexuals out there having sex with multiple different partners, strangers and so forth. Anyway-I wish you well in your path, and I admire your courage and strength.

01-18-2012, 03:28 AM	#52
4ourbestoutcome Junior Member Joined: Dec 2011 From: US Posts: 14	It sounds like it's been quite a road for you, and been a struggle. You have a lot of courage and motivation.

01-20-2012, 05:20 AM	#53
rushdy Youth Power Joined: Dec 2011 From: All over the place! Literally! Posts: 19	O wow! I don't think an ever-advancing civilization or the "New World Order" would be applied with such a state of mind. Whether it is genetic or psychological, it doesnt give us the right to evaluate the condition with such ignorace. If they are happy, then let them be! You are not suppose to agree or disagree with homosexuality, you are just suppose to accept their existence. Just like Baha'is around the middleeast ask for the acceptance in their nations, not approval!