In memory of an atheist prophet

Fadl · 12-18-2011, 04:17 AM

Christopher Hitchens, author of 'God is not Great', and one of the loudest voices of neo-atheism passed away recently. He was an important man who brought to the front and center the very important issues of faith and spirituality.

Here is a wonderful debate between him and Rabi Boteach:

Full Version: Hitchens and Boteach Debate on God - YouTube

Rest in peace, Mr. Hitchens. At last you know the truth of the things which greatly troubled you.

LordOfGoblins · 12-18-2011, 06:57 AM

RIP Mr Hitchens...
Hope you dont have a lot of debates with theists in the next world..

Ali · 11-03-2012, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fadl

Christopher Hitchens, author of 'God is not Great', and one of the loudest voices of neo-atheism passed away recently. He was an important man who brought to the front and center the very important issues of faith and spirituality.

Here is a wonderful debate between him and Rabi Boteach:

Full Version: Hitchens and Boteach Debate on God - YouTube

Rest in peace, Mr. Hitchens. At last you know the truth of the things which greatly troubled you.

Now you think that Atheists will enter God's kingdom too? To hell with him.

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

Now you think that Atheists will enter God's kingdom too? To hell with him.

I find that to be most uncharitable

I heartily hope - and in fact believe - that Christopher Hitchens, God rest his soul, will be in eternal peace now.

I did not agree with everything the man said but I sure as hell pay homage to the skill and the conviction with which he said it, which deserves my wholehearted respect.

In the last days of his life, he bravely battled cancer even in the face of what he believed would be "non-existence" after he died. Till his dying breath, he never recanted his disbelief in theism.

For that, as well as for many other things, I admire Hitchens.

And anyway, Hitchens was right. God doesn't exist. Most believers probably believe in a God they have thought up in their own head, one who corresponds to their personal needs, a comfort and a crutch to lean upon. That God, the God of "reward and punishment", the God of nationalisms and narrow belief systems, he certainly doesn't exist. The worship of this God is idolatry, a subtle form of idolatry, that I am sure many people are innocently guilty of. Hitchens was one of the few people on earth who was not guilty of this idolatry.

Quote:

"...In order to attain perfect union, we must divest ourselves of God...The common belief about God, that He is a great Taskmaster, whose function is to reward or punish, is cast out by perfect love; and in this sense the spiritual man does divest himself of God as conceived of by most people. The intellectual where is the essential unnameable nothingness. So we must call it, because we can discover no mode of being, under which to conceive it...it seems to us to be no-thing...You must give up human understanding if you want to reach the goal, because the truth is known by not knowing...This is the highest goal and the 'where' beyond boundaries. In this the spirituality of all spirits ends. Here to lose oneself forever is eternal happiness...Here in this region beyond thought the human spirit actively soars...In this wild mountain region of the 'where' beyond God there is an abyss full of play and feeling for all pure spirits...It is hidden for everything that is not God, except for those with whom he wants to share Himself...Eternity is life that is beyond time but includes within itself all time but without a before or after. And whoever is taken into the Eternal Nothing possesses all in all and has no 'before or after'. Indeed a person taken within today would not have been there for a shorter period from the point of view of eternity than someone who had been taken within a thousand years ago...Now these people who are taken within, because of their boundless immanent oneness with God, see themselves as always and eternally existing...be steadfast and never rest content until you have obtained the Now of Eternity as your present possession in this life..."

- Blessed Henry Suso (c. 1296-1366), German Catholic mystic & Dominican priest

Ali · 11-03-2012, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshua

I find that to be most uncharitable

I heartily hope - and in fact believe - that Christopher Hitchens, God rest his soul, will be in eternal peace now.

I did not agree with everything the man said but I sure as hell pay homage to the skill and the conviction with which he said it, which deserves my wholehearted respect.

In the last days of his life, he bravely battled cancer even in the face of what he believed would be "non-existence" after he died. Till his dying breath, he never recanted his disbelief in theism.

For that, as well as for many other things, I admire Hitchens.

And anyway, Hitchens was right. God doesn't exist. Most believers probably believe in a God they have thought up in their own head, one who corresponds to their personal needs, a comfort and a crutch to lean upon. That God, the God of "reward and punishment", the God of nationalisms and narrow belief systems, he certainly doesn't exist. The worship of this God is idolatry, a subtle form of idolatry, that I am sure many people are innocently guilty of. Hitchens was one of the few people on earth who was not guilty of this idolatry.

"Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6 NIV)

Noexalt · 11-03-2012, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

Now you think that Atheists will enter God's kingdom too? To hell with him.

Seriously Ali? We Baha'is are going to hate Atheists too now? When did that start?

Gosh, why don't we just make a list of everyone we hate in the Baha'i Faith and go down the list and damn them all to hell.

dwlehning · 11-03-2012, 11:07 AM

There was a period when I doubted the existence of God, and I have read all of the books of the "New Atheists", including God is Not Great, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris, etc. I listened to several debates by Mr. Hitchens, and he was a formidable debater indeed. Fortunately, I did not wade too deeply into the agnostic/atheistic waters before I turned back to God. Here are some passages from Gleanings to share.

Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is a direct evidence of the revelation within it of the attributes and names of God, inasmuch as within every atom are enshrined the signs that bear eloquent testimony to the revelation of that Most Great Light.... To a supreme degree is this true of man.... For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpasssed.... And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished, and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations, live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace. (Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, pp. 177-79.)

Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.... He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His mission than the proof of His Own Person.(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, p. 49.)

The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being [God] hath ever been, and will continue to be, closed in the face of men. No man's understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self.(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, pp. 49-50.)

I would say rather than condemn the atheists, we should keep them in our prayers that perhaps they may have a change of heart, either in this world or in the life to come, and turn toward the Light and Love of God and His Messengers. We do not know what our own end may be, thus we also need to pray for steadfastness.

Ali · 11-03-2012, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noexalt

Seriously Ali? We Baha'is are going to hate Atheists too now? When did that start?

Gosh, why don't we just make a list of everyone we hate in the Baha'i Faith and go down the list and damn them all to hell.

There is a difference between hating the person and hating the person's actions. I love Christopher as a member of my species but hate his crusade against the Abrahamic religions. I love homosexuals as members of my species but hate any of their homosexual acts even if it is looking at a same-sex with lust. Can I get any clearer than this?

Ali · 11-03-2012, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshua

I find that to be most uncharitable

I heartily hope - and in fact believe - that Christopher Hitchens, God rest his soul, will be in eternal peace now.

I did not agree with everything the man said but I sure as hell pay homage to the skill and the conviction with which he said it, which deserves my wholehearted respect.

In the last days of his life, he bravely battled cancer even in the face of what he believed would be "non-existence" after he died. Till his dying breath, he never recanted his disbelief in theism.

For that, as well as for many other things, I admire Hitchens.

And anyway, Hitchens was right. God doesn't exist. Most believers probably believe in a God they have thought up in their own head, one who corresponds to their personal needs, a comfort and a crutch to lean upon. That God, the God of "reward and punishment", the God of nationalisms and narrow belief systems, he certainly doesn't exist. The worship of this God is idolatry, a subtle form of idolatry, that I am sure many people are innocently guilty of. Hitchens was one of the few people on earth who was not guilty of this idolatry.

Whether you use Jewish, Christian, Islamic, or Bahai standards, atheists like Christopher Hitchens are condemned for their disbelief in God.

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

Whether you use Jewish, Christian, Islamic, or Bahai standards, atheists like Christopher Hitchens are condemned for their disbelief in God.

Not by the Catholic Church (or the Baha'i Faith, really, I don't think it does).

Quote:

"...I am not at all worried about my dear Master. It has always been far from me to think that God's mercy allows itself to be circumscribed by the visible church's boundaries. God is truth. All who seek truth seek God, whether this is clear to them or not..."

- Saint Edith Stein (1891 - 1942), Jewish Catholic mystic & Holocaust victim, speaking about her atheist mentor Edmund Husserl

The Catholic Church teaches as doctrine that atheists can attain to salvation. One does not need an explicit faith in God, what one needs is to elicit love and strive towards the truth, whereby one receives the grace of faith even without explicit faith in a Supreme Deity. Implicit faith is enough, provided that the person in question is sincere and genuine in his erroneous disbelief in God. Only God can judge the sincerity of a human heart, so by what authority can you condemn Christopher Hitchens or anyone to hell? That is exercising a judgement reserved only to God alone.

Quote:

The Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)

“The Catholic Church has ever taught that nothing else is needed to obtain justification than an act of perfect charity and of contrition. Whoever, under the impulse of actual grace, elicits these acts receives immediately the gift of sanctifying grace, and is numbered among the children of God. Should he die in these dispositions, he will assuredly attain heaven.”

Certainly we have no right to judge the eternal fate of any soul. That is not in keeping with faith.

Quote:

"...It is false that we say to anyone that he is damned. To do so would be false to our general doctrine relating to sects outside the bosom of the Church. We are persuaded that all of those who with sincerity remain in their errors, who through inculpable ignorance believe themselves in the way of salvation . . . are children of the Catholic Church. Such is the opinion of all divines from St. Augustine..."

- Nicolas-Sylvestre Bergier, (1715 – 1790), celebrated French Catholic theologian

In Lumen Gentium (a document of Vatican II in the 60s) we find this:

Quote:

"...Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life..." (Lumen Gentium, 2.16; cf. Gaudium et Spes 1.22)

The Council also recognized that, by not always showing the true face of God, believers may have contributed to the rise of atheism (cf. Gaudium et spes, n. 19; CCC, n. 2125). In fact the Second Vatican Council, subsequent magisterial documents and the Catechism all teach that it is possible for atheists - people "who have not arrived at an explicit knowledge of God" - to receive redemption in Christ since the sin of rejecting/disbelieving in God can be moderated and significantly lessened by a wide variety of factors, be they social or psychological.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us:

Quote:

2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is [...] against the virtue of religion. The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."

Rather than blame individual atheists, the Catholic Church encourages we believers to look first to ourselves. We are often to blame for atheism.

In addition, Servant of God Pope Paul VI said the following things about atheists in an encyclical:

Quote:

"...The Church can regard no one as excluded from its motherly embrace, no one as outside the scope of its motherly care. It has no enemies except those who wish to make themselves such. Its catholicity is no idle boast. It was not for nothing that it received its mission to foster love, unity and peace among men...We are firmly convinced that the basic propositions of atheism are utterly false and irreconcilable with the underlying principles of thought...In these circumstances dialogue is very difficult, not to say impossible, although we have today no preconceived intention of cutting ourselves off from the adherents of these systems and these regimes. For the lover of truth discussion is always possible...Though We speak firmly and clearly in defense of religion, and of those human, spiritual values which it proclaims and cherishes, Our pastoral solicitude nevertheless prompts Us to probe into the mind of the modern atheist, in an effort to understand the reasons for his mental turmoil and his denial of God. They are obviously many and complex, and we must come to a prudent decision about them, and answer them effectively. They sometimes spring from the demand for a more profound and purer presentation of religious truth, and an objection to forms of language and worship which somehow fall short of the ideal. These things we must remedy. We must do all we can to purify them and make them express more adequately the sacred reality of which they are the signs. We see these men serving a demanding and often a noble cause, fired with enthusiasm and idealism, dreaming of justice and progress and striving for a social order which they conceive of as the ultimate of perfection, and all but divine. This, for them, is the Absolute and the Necessary. It proves that nothing can tear from their hearts their yearning for God, the first and final cause of all things. It is the task of our teaching Office to reveal to them, with patience and wisdom, that all these things are immanent in human nature and transcend it. Again we see these men taking pains to work out scientific explanation of the universe by human reasoning, and they are often quite ingenuously enthusiastic about this. It is an enquiry which is all the less reprehensible in that it follows rules of logic very similar to those which are taught in the best schools of philosophy. Such an enquiry, far from providing them, as they suppose, with irrefutable arguments in defense of their atheism, must of its very nature bring them back finally to the metaphysic al and logical assertion of the existence of the supreme God...They are sometimes men of great breadth of mind, impatient with the mediocrity and self-seeking which infects so much of modern society. They are quick to make use of sentiments and expressions found in our Gospel, referring to the brotherhood of man, mutual aid, and human compassion. Shall we not one day be able to lead them back to the Christian sources of these moral values?... We do not therefore give up hope of the eventual possibility of a dialogue between these men and the Church..."

- ECCLESIAM SUAM, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI , AUGUST 6, 1964

And the Pope said this at the height of the Cold War when atheist, communist "systems" were dominating Eastern Europe behind the Iron Curtain.

Judge and be judged...?

Noexalt · 11-03-2012, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

There is a difference between hating the person and hating the person's actions. I love Christopher as a member of my species but hate his crusade against the Abrahamic religions. I love homosexuals as members of my species but hate any of their homosexual acts even if it is looking at a same-sex with lust. Can I get any clearer than this?

Oh yes, let's be clear...YOU SAID and I quote VERBATIM

Quote:

To hell with him.

Crusade against Abrahamic religions? So if he crusaded against Zorastrian, Hinduism and Buddhism, that would be acceptable in your view? Or have you deemed these to be People of the Book now too

This line about hating the sin and not the sinner is old and tired.

So many writings in the Faith about not condemning others, not breathing the sins of others, and overlooking the sins of others, so many writings about how individual Baha'is are to treat others irrespective of their supposed shortcomings. Yet, you said "to hell with Him".

It seems that you are a relatively new Baha'i, and while I myself am not well versed on the Twelver Shiism sect you came from, I will say that Baha'u'llah has taught that Hell is not a physical place, Hell is one's self, and Satan is the Ego. I suggest you read up on these concepts intensely, I sense a vein of a sense of superiority in you and you need to keep it in check.

How ignorant, therefore, the thought that God, Who created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, made the sun and all phenomenal existence for his benefit, bestowed upon him tenderness and kindness and then did not love him. This is palpable ignorance, for no matter to what religion a man belongs, even though he be an atheist or materialist, nevertheless, God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light. How then can we believe God is wrathful and unloving? How can we even imagine this, when as a matter of fact we are witnesses of the tenderness and mercy of God upon every hand? All about us we behold manifestations of the love of God. If, therefore, God be loving, what should we do? We have nothing else to do but to emulate Him. Just as God loves all and is kind to all, so must we really love and be kind to everybody. We must consider none bad, none worthy of detestation, no one as an enemy. We must love all; nay, we must consider everyone as related to us, for all are the servants of one God. All are under the instructions of one Educator. We must strive day and night that love and amity may increase, that this bond of unity may be strengthened, that joy and happiness may more and more prevail, that in unity and solidarity all mankind may gather beneath the shadow of God, that people may turn to God for their sustenance, finding in Him the life that is everlasting. Thus may they be confirmed in the Kingdom of God and live forever through His grace and bounty.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 266)

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 12:29 PM

Wow, brilliant brother/sister Noexalt

Noexalt · 11-03-2012, 12:39 PM

Thank you Yeshua,

I get so tired of this attitude that God doesn't love or even like "certain people", and then people think it's OK to be hateful and ignorant towards them. Then they turn around and say, "OH no, I don't hate anyone....". What a bunch of manure.

Ali · 11-03-2012, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noexalt

Thank you Yeshua,

I get so tired of this attitude that God doesn't love or even like "certain people", and then people think it's OK to be hateful and ignorant towards them. Then they turn around and say, "OH no, I don't hate anyone....". What a bunch of manure.

Fine, I hate disbelievers and I'm proud of it. I hope Hitchens is in Hell along with any other dead atheist. May God curse all of them. And may God curse any active homosexual too.

Essence of GOD · 11-03-2012, 01:24 PM

indeed he was a great man who set out to guide mankind in a path in which he thought would be best for it.
i praise him for his strength in his beliefs and setting out to guide humanity to a more exulted station.
may he rest in peace.

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence of GOD

indeed he was a great man who set out to guide mankind in a path in which he thought would be best for it.
i praise him for his strength in his beliefs and setting out to guide humanity to a more exulted station.
may he rest in peace.

Amen, amen, amen!

Beautifully put brother Essence.

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

Fine, I hate disbelievers and I'm proud of it. I hope Hitchens is in Hell along with any other dead atheist. May God curse all of them. And may God curse any active homosexual too.

Please tell me you don't mean that...?

Christ told us to love even our enemies, as does the Baha'i Faith - which teaches one to love all humanity...God does not curse, anyone.

I have NEVER read anything so downright heinous on an internet forum. And I've read many dire things but man, that has got to be the worst.

Hence why, I hope that you do not mean what you said above. Please tell me that you don't?

Ali · 11-03-2012, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshua

Please tell me you don't mean that...?

Christ told us to love even our enemies, as does the Baha'i Faith - which teaches one to love all humanity...God does not curse, anyone.

I have NEVER read anything so downright heinous on an internet forum. And I've read many dire things but man, that has got to be the worst.

Hence why, I hope that you do not mean what you said above. Please tell me that you don't?

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (NT)

As I said, may God curse Hitchens and anyone who agrees with him.

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (NT)

As I said, may God curse Hitchens and anyone who agrees with him.

Brother,

You are taking a 2,000 year old text out of context to buttress your hatred of certain groups of humanity?

Nice brother. You remind me of those who pick out the "sword verse" of the Qur'an, completely out of context, and try to present a faulty image of Islam based upon it.

It is speaking of those who break the unity of the Church of God. Baha'i writings, yes, do teach against such sects as well (Covenant-Breakers), as does Islam, however the translation above is faulty. It would be wrong to place anyone under a curse, according to Christ's teaching and Baha'u'llah's. Every human being, at his deepest core, wants to be loved and to find love (even if they aren't aware of that fact).

It says nothing about the eternal fate of schismatists!

It actually reads:

Quote:

I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel. But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!

As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!

Galatians 1:6-9

He says nothing about God "cursing", because as I said God does not curse, human beings curse. And he is being exaggerative to demonstrate to his readers the importance of not straying into schism and breaking the unity of the Body of Christ. It is not meant to be taken literally, note that he isn't even speaking about individuals but a hypothetical "schismatist".

To balance what you are saying above, consider these Pauline texts:

Quote:

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).

Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification, according to the need of the moment, that it may give grace to those who hear...” (Eph. 4:29).

And this from Jesus:

Quote:

"...But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect..."

- Jesus Christ (Gospel of Matthew 5:44-48)

Illumine · 11-03-2012, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

As I said, may God curse Hitchens and anyone who agrees with him.

God isn't going to curse Hitchens, or indeed anyone - not even you

Noexalt has already provided some beautiful quotations. It is our job to love only. Hitchens is safe with God and the only person that your hatred will harm is yourself, which is very sad.

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illumine

God isn't going to curse Hitchens, or indeed anyone - not even you

Noexalt has already provided some beautiful quotations. It is our job to love only. Hitchens is safe with God and the only person that your hatred will harm is yourself, which is very sad.

Yes! Just simply: Yes!

Ali · 11-03-2012, 01:59 PM

pluralism at its best - LOL!

Noexalt · 11-03-2012, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshua

Please tell me you don't mean that...?

Christ told us to love even our enemies, as does the Baha'i Faith - which teaches one to love all humanity...God does not curse, anyone.

I have NEVER read anything so downright heinous on an internet forum. And I've read many dire things but man, that has got to be the worst.

Hence why, I hope that you do not mean what you said above. Please tell me that you don't?

Honestly Yeshua, I don't think he does mean it. I think he is throwing a temper tantrum like a 5-year old. He lost the battle, and now he's mad. His ego has been bruised and he has been called out on his attitude so now, it's time to scream and pound his fists and kick his feet against the floor. He is much too prideful to admit that he was wrong, and much to egotisitical to admit that others are his equals. This isn't about right and wrong any more, his satanic ego is battling for attention. This is the truest form provoking a demon in an exorcism. He has two choices 1) Correct his Ego and stay Baha'i, 2) go back to Twelver Shiism where he can get much attention for rejecting the Baha'is, and perhaps become an Imam or Teacher or something where his Ego can be kowtowed to appropriately.

Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: "Do men think when they say 'We believe' they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?"[1]
[1 Qur'án 29:2.]

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 8)

O maid-servant of God! Verily the Cause is great and great! Regiments and regiments enter therein! Some people must necessarily turn their backs upon it, on account of their lack of sincerity in the Cause of God and for their selfishness and egotism.

O maid-servant of God! A pure sea doth not accept a dead body, therefore the waves will necessarily throw the dead finally upon the shores.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 290)

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noexalt

Honestly Yeshua, I don't think he does mean it. I think he is throwing a temper tantrum like a 5-year old. He lost the battle, and now he's mad. His ego has been bruised and he has been called out on his attitude so now, it's time to scream and pound his fists and kick his feet against the floor. He is much too prideful to admit that he was wrong, and much to egotisitical to admit that others are his equals. This isn't about right and wrong any more, his satanic ego is battling for attention. This is the truest form provoking a demon in an exorcism. He has two choices 1) Correct his Ego and stay Baha'i, 2) go back to Twelver Shiism where he can get much attention for rejecting the Baha'is, and perhaps become an Imam or Teacher or something where his Ego can be kowtowed to appropriately.

Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: "Do men think when they say 'We believe' they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?"[1]
[1 Qur'án 29:2.]

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 8)

O maid-servant of God! Verily the Cause is great and great! Regiments and regiments enter therein! Some people must necessarily turn their backs upon it, on account of their lack of sincerity in the Cause of God and for their selfishness and egotism.

O maid-servant of God! A pure sea doth not accept a dead body, therefore the waves will necessarily throw the dead finally upon the shores.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 290)

Thank you brother/sister Noexalt. A wonderful post.

I must admit that I was shocked but I believe you to be correct. He does not mean it, he finds himself hurting and wanted to strike back because his arguement had fallen.

He is in my prayers, God Bless him!

Great insights and quotes from the Writings btw!

Ali · 11-03-2012, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshua

Thank you brother/sister Noexalt. A wonderful post.

I must admit that I was shocked but I believe you to be correct. He does not mean it, he finds himself hurting and wanted to strike back because his arguement had fallen.

He is in my prayers, God Bless him!

Great insights and quotes from the Writings!

Quite frankly, I believe that every revelation that God sent was exclusive. So if you are not a devout Bahai, you're cursed (deprived of God's mercy). Now Mr. NoExalt can cite as many non-Aqdas sources he wants, the Aqdas makes it quite clear...

"Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed" (1)

P.S. Save yourself from God's wrath and then pray for me.

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

Quite frankly, I believe that every revelation that God sent was exclusive. So if you are not a devout Bahai, you're cursed (deprived of God's mercy). Now Mr. NoExalt can cite as many non-Aqdas sources he wants, the Aqdas makes it quite clear...

"Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed" (1)

Again you quote tiny texts from religious scriptures out of context. You know, as well as I do, that the Aqdas is binding in its injuctions - including that one above - only on Baha'is who declare for Baha'u'llah. Since neither myself nor yourself are Baha'is (Christian and Shi'ite Muslim) it does not apply to us.

The Baha'i Faith does not teach exclusive salvation. It does not even believe in a literal hell or Satan.

You arguement therefore has no ground/basis.

You are doing the exact same thing you did with the Bible above with the Kitab-i-Aqdas.

Ali · 11-03-2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshua

Again you quote tiny texts from religious scriptures out of context. You know, as well as I do, that the Aqdas is binding in its injuctions - including that one above - only on Baha'is who declare for Baha'u'llah. Since neither myself nor yourself are Baha'is (Christian and Shi'ite Muslim) it does not apply to us.

The Baha'i Faith does not teach exclusive salvation. It does not even believe in a literal hell or Satan.

You arguement therefore has no ground/basis.

You are doing the exact same thing you did with the Bible above with the Kitab-i-Aqdas.

1) I am a Bahai. Even if you and NoExalt disagree, that's fine. I have doubts on that homosexual anyways.

2) The Aqdas is binding on everyone even if one doesn't believe in it. So you don't believe in it, may God help you.

3) Hell is not a literal place but considered much worse than the descriptions mentioned in the Bible and Koran. So if you fear being sent to a "lake of fire" then you better fear the Bahai conception of hell.

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

P.S. Save yourself from God's wrath and then pray for me.

Neither myself nor yourself nor anyone participating in this thread is under "God's Wrath". God cannot have "wrath" because God is immutable (unchanging) and impassible (without human emotions). For him to experience wrath would bring him down to the human sphere and denote change within him, which as you know cannot be because God in his Essence is wholly transcendent and unknowable. Christian, Islamic and Baha'i theology all teach this.

All language attributing emotion to God in the Bible or Qur'an is figurative. If it were not, then these holy books would be self-contradictory and therefore not worthy of belief.

The only thing we all need saving from is ourselves. Neither God nor the devil cause us to fail. It is the "me" that makes one fall.

Did you read nothing of the Catholic mystic Suso above? He explained that the idea of a wrathful, punishing God is a "myth". As does Angelus Silesius:

Quote:

"...The vengeful God
of wrath and punishment
is a mere fairytale.
It simply is the Me
that makes me fail.

God stands far above the anger,
rage and indignation
ascribed to Him by primitive imagination

All heaven's glory is within
and so is hell's fierce burning.
You must yourself decide
in which direction
you are turning

Unless you find paradise
at your own center,
there is not
the smallest chance
that you may enter..."

- Angelus Silesius (1624 - 1677), Polish-German Catholic mystic & poet

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

1) I am a Bahai. Even if you and NoExalt disagree, that's fine. I have doubts on that homosexual anyways.

2) The Aqdas is binding on everyone even if one doesn't believe in it. So you don't believe in it, may God help you.

3) Hell is not a literal place but considered much worse than the descriptions mentioned in the Bible and Koran. So if you fear being sent to a "lake of fire" then you better fear the Bahai conception of hell.

Apologies for my mistake, I was not aware that you had declared. It makes me even more disturbed that you hold views in direct opposition to your faith.

Baha'is believe that heaven and hell are conditions of nearness and remoteness to God.

Noexalt · 11-03-2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

Quite frankly, I believe that every revelation that God sent was exclusive. So if you are not a devout Bahai, you're cursed (deprived of God's mercy). Now Mr. NoExalt can cite as many non-Aqdas sources he wants, the Aqdas makes it quite clear...

"Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed" (1)

P.S. Save yourself from God's wrath first and then pray for me.

And here we go. That demon is just fighting for his life!

Looking at it the Faith from the Aqdas only leaves out Abdu'l Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice. This was the successorship of Baha'u'llah. You claim to be a Twelver, so surely you understand succession, but you reject it as a Bahai?

Cut the temper tantrum and grow up. We love you even though you were wrong, if not we wouldn't keep up the discussion.

Noexalt · 11-03-2012, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

1) I have doubts on that homosexual anyways.

Grow up.

Ali · 11-03-2012, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noexalt

Grow up.

Your pluralistic mentality contradicts the first paragraph of Aqdas. May God guide you.

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

I have doubts on that homosexual anyways.

Well you might as well have "doubts" on me as well then, because as you know I am not heterosexual either but asexual. Target all the sexual minorities why don't you! What would you do with us - have us burnt at the stake medieval style?

(The last part is not intended literally btw).

Please do not refer to another member of this forum as "that homosexual" in front of my eyes again please.

Noexalt · 11-03-2012, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

Your pluralistic mentality contradicts the first paragraph of Aqdas. May God guide you.

First of all, that's just wrong, secondly, you are blatantly rejecting every other Baha'i scripture other than the Aqdas, which I doubt you are able to live by 100% anyway.

Even if your accusations of me were true, I have not rejected the authority of any of the Baha'i sacred scriptures.

You are drunk on your own ego, you don't even know what you are saying anymore. I think you will say anything if it keeps you from admitting your own weaknesses and deficiencies.

IndistinctDreamer · 11-03-2012, 02:51 PM

I take from your responses Ali you are homophobic. It is not so much that Noexalt has invalidated your arguments but much rather that he is a homosexual who has invalidated your arguments. In your state of egoism you seem to place yourself superior to him based on your orientation.

I will quote one writing and only one for I believe it is up to you to correct your own actions and the responsibility ultimately falls upon yourself.

O SON OF BEING! Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds.

Yeshua · 11-03-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndistinctDreamer

I take from your responses Ali you are homophobic. It is not so much that Noexalt has invalidated your arguments but much rather that he is a homosexual who has invalidated your arguments. In your state of egoism you seem to place yourself superior to him based on your orientation.

I will quote one writing and only one for I believe it is up to you to correct your own actions and the responsibility ultimately falls upon yourself.

O SON OF BEING! Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds.

Zhang · 11-03-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali

I have doubts on that homosexual anyways.

Astaghfirullah bro...

Such a harsh tongue makes me wonder if you are on some kind of Baha'i crusade. Is he not a submitter to God like you?

Please pray for true hidayah... :\

-张

Noexalt · 11-03-2012, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndistinctDreamer

It is not so much that Noexalt has invalidated your arguments but much rather that he is a homosexual who has invalidated your arguments. [/B]

OMG, ID, that was beautiful! I could cry. People are "getting it" woohoo!!!

Thank you you beautiful, beautiful human being!

Of course, this isn't just about Ali..omg.

IndistinctDreamer · 11-03-2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noexalt

Of course, this isn't just about Ali

It is prevalent in our society

Anis · 11-03-2012, 04:10 PM

If I could share some parting words with Hitchens, rest his soul, I'd say: I contend that we are both atheists, and when you discover the reason why you dismiss all gods, you may then know the reason why I dismiss all but One.

11-03-2012, 04:10 PM	#40
Anis Member Joined: Oct 2012 From: The rose of thy heart Posts: 55	One is All, All is One. If I could share some parting words with Hitchens, rest his soul, I'd say: I contend that we are both atheists, and when you discover the reason why you dismiss all gods, you may then know the reason why I dismiss all but One.

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12-18-2011, 06:57 AM	#2
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 2,056	RIP Mr Hitchens... Hope you dont have a lot of debates with theists in the next world..

11-03-2012, 11:07 AM	#7
dwlehning Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Boalsburg, PA, USA Posts: 48	There was a period when I doubted the existence of God, and I have read all of the books of the "New Atheists", including God is Not Great, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris, etc. I listened to several debates by Mr. Hitchens, and he was a formidable debater indeed. Fortunately, I did not wade too deeply into the agnostic/atheistic waters before I turned back to God. Here are some passages from Gleanings to share. Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is a direct evidence of the revelation within it of the attributes and names of God, inasmuch as within every atom are enshrined the signs that bear eloquent testimony to the revelation of that Most Great Light.... To a supreme degree is this true of man.... For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpasssed.... And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished, and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations, live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace. (Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, pp. 177-79.) Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.... He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His mission than the proof of His Own Person.(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, p. 49.) The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being [God] hath ever been, and will continue to be, closed in the face of men. No man's understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self.(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, pp. 49-50.) I would say rather than condemn the atheists, we should keep them in our prayers that perhaps they may have a change of heart, either in this world or in the life to come, and turn toward the Light and Love of God and His Messengers. We do not know what our own end may be, thus we also need to pray for steadfastness.

11-03-2012, 12:29 PM	#12
Yeshua Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: United Kingdom Posts: 1,908	Wow, brilliant brother/sister Noexalt

11-03-2012, 12:39 PM	#13
Noexalt Senior Member Joined: Dec 2011 From: Maryland Posts: 193	Thank you Yeshua, I get so tired of this attitude that God doesn't love or even like "certain people", and then people think it's OK to be hateful and ignorant towards them. Then they turn around and say, "OH no, I don't hate anyone....". What a bunch of manure.

11-03-2012, 01:24 PM	#15
Essence of GOD Senior Member Joined: Nov 2010 From: EARTH Posts: 334	indeed he was a great man who set out to guide mankind in a path in which he thought would be best for it. i praise him for his strength in his beliefs and setting out to guide humanity to a more exulted station. may he rest in peace.

11-03-2012, 01:59 PM	#22
Ali Member Joined: Dec 2011 From: Brampton Posts: 62	pluralism at its best - LOL!

11-03-2012, 02:51 PM	#35
IndistinctDreamer Senior Member Joined: Oct 2012 From: Tristan da Cunha Posts: 131	I take from your responses Ali you are homophobic. It is not so much that Noexalt has invalidated your arguments but much rather that he is a homosexual who has invalidated your arguments. In your state of egoism you seem to place yourself superior to him based on your orientation. I will quote one writing and only one for I believe it is up to you to correct your own actions and the responsibility ultimately falls upon yourself. O SON OF BEING! Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds.