Pantheism, natural magick, and Baha'i?

tessmi7 · 12-27-2011, 02:21 PM

I have been studying the Baha'i faith for almost a year now, and I identify myself as accepting this faith as my own, as well as Unitarian Universalism (which serves more as a title to show I am studying various religions as well, they interest me greatly). I like to think I am a pantheist, which is defined as believing God and the universe are the same. God is the energies and power flowing through nature, through the natural magnetic waves the Earth and universe emits, through each and every constellation. I also believe in natural magick (essentially witchcraft), and that the forces of nature can assist you if you call upon them. I'm not talking about Harry Potter magic, or flying broom sticks, nor pet black cats. Natural magick is difficult for many to comprehend if they have not studied at least the surface of it, as it has taken a beaten throughout history.
Do my beliefs in pantheism and natural magick clash with my beliefs in the Baha'i faith? I have not come across any doctrines or discussions regarding this matter, and I've been extremely curious to find an answer. Thank you!

Fadl · 12-27-2011, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tessmi7

Do my beliefs in pantheism and natural magick clash with my beliefs in the Baha'i faith? I have not come across any doctrines or discussions regarding this matter, and I've been extremely curious to find an answer. Thank you!

Hi Tessmi!

You've asked a pretty simple and direct question, and the answer is- yes. We don't believe in natural magic in our faith.However, I wouldn't let it stop you, as I feel once you grow deeper in your faith in Baha'u'llah, that you will become less interested in these things of your own accord and will replace them with other things that will naturally become more satisfactory to you spiritually and intellectually.

Cheers!

cire perdue · 12-27-2011, 02:36 PM

No, those are not Baha'i teachings. It is especially expressed that God is absolutely separate from His creation. We do not practice astrology i.e. as how do we know we do not affect the stars? I am very unclear about natural magic, so I won't say. To be a Baha'i means accepting the Covenants and Institutions. It is a committment. "I say" one does not join this Faith, one believes in it. If one accepts Baha'u'llah as the Promised One of all the religions of the world, then one listens to His explanations rather than cling to one's own. Sometime it is a profound relief to give up some of these ideas. There is a tendancy to have a superficial understanding of this Faith and just shelve it with all the others. It is much, much more than that.

Pantheism: "It is evident then that each elemental atom of the universe is possessed of a capacity to express all the virtues of the universe. This is a subtle and abstract realization. Meditate upon it, for within it lies the true explanation of pantheism. From this point of view and perception, pantheism is a truth, for every atom in the universe possesses or reflects all the virtues of life, the manifestation of which is effected through change and transformation. Therefore the origin and outcome of phenomena is verily the omnipresent God for the reality of all phenomenal existence is through Him. There is neither reality nor the manifestation of reality without the instrumentality of God."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 58)

Pollwr · 12-27-2011, 05:49 PM

Hi Tessmi7,
My view of natural magic is this. I think these beliefs hail from a very early religion with very little documentation. I suspect that this comes from a time when mankind was not ready to comprehend One God and so were taught about attributes of God. I believe each force of nature represented an attribute of God and calling on these forces was a primitive form of prayer. Whilst I respect the people who practise this sincerely I would not call on a force of nature because I have learned to pray using Bahá'í prayers. I do not see calling on a force of nature as an alternative or supplement to prayer but a different more ancient way of praying.

arthra · 12-27-2011, 05:55 PM

Tessmi..

Welcome to the forum!

Tessmi wrote:

"Do my beliefs in pantheism and natural magick clash with my beliefs in the Baha'i faith?"

Simple question for you:

What are your beliefs in the Baha'i Faith?

4ourbestoutcome · 12-30-2011, 08:50 AM

Tessmi7--minus the magic/witchcraft, I can identify. Recently I have contemplated UU as basically covering my bases, but not joining a physical UU congregation. But I am very interested in Baha'i, and of course UU allows the individual to believe so one can be a UU Baha'i/Chrisitian/Buddhist and so forth. My thing is that I want to really focus on one faith that unifies all and believes in God, has inspirational teachings but is not a reprimanding type, and which also does not condemn a person for reading other religious texts like the Bhagavad Gita/Upahishads, I Ching, etc and deriving spiritual meaning from them as well. UU it would be cool with, but IMHO, UU is also almost TOO vast. It's a real push-pull thing for me. I have strived for all my life to have a genuine spiritual home, and to be able to actually pray for real to God-I just have real difficulties with that and have gone years without even thinking about God in any real way-just never seem to feel moved the way I want to. And I have had several facets of Christianity explored, and come up totally empty and wonder if it's just me being empty. As an American, the whole Chrisitian influence is inescapable, though I don't consider the US a Christian nation per se. But when one is from origins of Roman Catholicism like me and rejected it, the next thing would be to look at Protestantism-just the canned way it is, and of course found it equally empty. So here I sit. I do have interest in some of the chakra energy centers too, and but don't believe crystals can outright heal sort of thing other than perhaps an actual chemical property but just like I also think there is something to the Chinese acupuncture meridians. I think there are many mystical things out there that God creates and people can look at. But I believe people's beliefs and faith in God to then for the person to conduct oneself kindly and lovingly is the true "magic". Well, it's part of my not yet developed faith system. I've been on a long journey...

cire perdue · 12-30-2011, 09:34 AM

Baha'is believe by committing to this Faith that we are changing the world spiritually, that the Promised One of all religions is come, literally, and that the guidance we are receiving will transform the world as we allow it to transform us. It is similar to being an early Christian in Rome and going agains the grain. If one truly grasps who Baha'u'llah is then one does not simply add His Revelation to the shelf and go about their way without changing. We don't seek people to join, we seek believers. That is a test of this Faith to use it to transform one's life. You must also realize that there are still Baha'is in Iran who lives and livlihoods remain under dire threat. They don't leave, because they have a purpose being there and making sacrifices. It will ultimately change Iran. There is a great depth in this Revelation that I hope will not be missed. It is incredibly special.

12-27-2011, 02:21 PM	#1
tessmi7 Truth Seeker Joined: Dec 2011 From: NC Posts: 1	Pantheism, natural magick, and Baha'i? I have been studying the Baha'i faith for almost a year now, and I identify myself as accepting this faith as my own, as well as Unitarian Universalism (which serves more as a title to show I am studying various religions as well, they interest me greatly). I like to think I am a pantheist, which is defined as believing God and the universe are the same. God is the energies and power flowing through nature, through the natural magnetic waves the Earth and universe emits, through each and every constellation. I also believe in natural magick (essentially witchcraft), and that the forces of nature can assist you if you call upon them. I'm not talking about Harry Potter magic, or flying broom sticks, nor pet black cats. Natural magick is difficult for many to comprehend if they have not studied at least the surface of it, as it has taken a beaten throughout history. Do my beliefs in pantheism and natural magick clash with my beliefs in the Baha'i faith? I have not come across any doctrines or discussions regarding this matter, and I've been extremely curious to find an answer. Thank you!

12-27-2011, 02:36 PM	#3
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,601	I am probably the least tactful to answer here, but No, those are not Baha'i teachings. It is especially expressed that God is absolutely separate from His creation. We do not practice astrology i.e. as how do we know we do not affect the stars? I am very unclear about natural magic, so I won't say. To be a Baha'i means accepting the Covenants and Institutions. It is a committment. "I say" one does not join this Faith, one believes in it. If one accepts Baha'u'llah as the Promised One of all the religions of the world, then one listens to His explanations rather than cling to one's own. Sometime it is a profound relief to give up some of these ideas. There is a tendancy to have a superficial understanding of this Faith and just shelve it with all the others. It is much, much more than that. Pantheism: "It is evident then that each elemental atom of the universe is possessed of a capacity to express all the virtues of the universe. This is a subtle and abstract realization. Meditate upon it, for within it lies the true explanation of pantheism. From this point of view and perception, pantheism is a truth, for every atom in the universe possesses or reflects all the virtues of life, the manifestation of which is effected through change and transformation. Therefore the origin and outcome of phenomena is verily the omnipresent God for the reality of all phenomenal existence is through Him. There is neither reality nor the manifestation of reality without the instrumentality of God." (Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 58)

12-30-2011, 09:34 AM	#7
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,601	The Baha'i Faith is a challenge Baha'is believe by committing to this Faith that we are changing the world spiritually, that the Promised One of all religions is come, literally, and that the guidance we are receiving will transform the world as we allow it to transform us. It is similar to being an early Christian in Rome and going agains the grain. If one truly grasps who Baha'u'llah is then one does not simply add His Revelation to the shelf and go about their way without changing. We don't seek people to join, we seek believers. That is a test of this Faith to use it to transform one's life. You must also realize that there are still Baha'is in Iran who lives and livlihoods remain under dire threat. They don't leave, because they have a purpose being there and making sacrifices. It will ultimately change Iran. There is a great depth in this Revelation that I hope will not be missed. It is incredibly special.

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12-27-2011, 05:49 PM	#4
Pollwr Senior Member Joined: Jun 2009 From: earth Posts: 308	Hi Tessmi7, My view of natural magic is this. I think these beliefs hail from a very early religion with very little documentation. I suspect that this comes from a time when mankind was not ready to comprehend One God and so were taught about attributes of God. I believe each force of nature represented an attribute of God and calling on these forces was a primitive form of prayer. Whilst I respect the people who practise this sincerely I would not call on a force of nature because I have learned to pray using Bahá'í prayers. I do not see calling on a force of nature as an alternative or supplement to prayer but a different more ancient way of praying.

12-27-2011, 05:55 PM	#5
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,055	Tessmi.. Welcome to the forum! Tessmi wrote: "Do my beliefs in pantheism and natural magick clash with my beliefs in the Baha'i faith?" Simple question for you: What are your beliefs in the Baha'i Faith?

12-30-2011, 08:50 AM	#6
4ourbestoutcome Junior Member Joined: Dec 2011 From: US Posts: 14	Tessmi7--minus the magic/witchcraft, I can identify. Recently I have contemplated UU as basically covering my bases, but not joining a physical UU congregation. But I am very interested in Baha'i, and of course UU allows the individual to believe so one can be a UU Baha'i/Chrisitian/Buddhist and so forth. My thing is that I want to really focus on one faith that unifies all and believes in God, has inspirational teachings but is not a reprimanding type, and which also does not condemn a person for reading other religious texts like the Bhagavad Gita/Upahishads, I Ching, etc and deriving spiritual meaning from them as well. UU it would be cool with, but IMHO, UU is also almost TOO vast. It's a real push-pull thing for me. I have strived for all my life to have a genuine spiritual home, and to be able to actually pray for real to God-I just have real difficulties with that and have gone years without even thinking about God in any real way-just never seem to feel moved the way I want to. And I have had several facets of Christianity explored, and come up totally empty and wonder if it's just me being empty. As an American, the whole Chrisitian influence is inescapable, though I don't consider the US a Christian nation per se. But when one is from origins of Roman Catholicism like me and rejected it, the next thing would be to look at Protestantism-just the canned way it is, and of course found it equally empty. So here I sit. I do have interest in some of the chakra energy centers too, and but don't believe crystals can outright heal sort of thing other than perhaps an actual chemical property but just like I also think there is something to the Chinese acupuncture meridians. I think there are many mystical things out there that God creates and people can look at. But I believe people's beliefs and faith in God to then for the person to conduct oneself kindly and lovingly is the true "magic". Well, it's part of my not yet developed faith system. I've been on a long journey...