Truthseeker96

Allah-u-abha friends,
I watched this video about if God created the universe, and the scientist where able to prove that God did not have to be there for the universe to be created. As Baha'is I know we are suppose to embrace the science, and in this video it leaves only room for God to have created the Quantum Laws and the Laws of nature. causing a domino effect as far as I understand, how does this video come across to you? what do you think about all this info being presented in here. it was all new to me and really made me think. ( sorry i dont know how to embed the video in)

Curiosity - Did God Create the Universe - YouTube

Fadl

Hi!

I love shows like this and am keen to watch and read everything about these matters that I can get my hands on.

I saw this very show a few months back, and I have to admit, I was a bit disappointed with it. The conclusion it reached was not at all obvious to me, and, as science shows go, this one felt a bit sloppy and presumptuous, not the to mention being based on extremely week theology as most shows are that want to disprove God through logic or science are.

I don't want to watch this one again in order to find concrete examples, but there are much better documentaries out there on the same issues of quantum mechanics that don't make any conclusions at all. After all, how can good science make such conclusions in the first place?

Naturally if God created all existence then that entails the laws of quantum mechanics. Otherwise we would have to suppose that God, if He exists at all (I actually don't think God does 'exist' but that is too far off topic), is a composite of subatomic particles and therefore a part of the material universe(s) which is illogical on its face.

What did you think? Did you find the documentary compelling in its conclusion? I think it deserves a raspberry nomination for junk science documentary of the year.

armin

I didn't watch the video but have heard and seen similar arguments. Regardless, I see no contradiction here with religion and more specifically the Baha'i faith. It is my firm belief that God has laid the foundation of a self subsisting world that does not require any direct or indirect involvement from God. To me the idea that God needs to be actively involved in the affairs of this universe misguided. Of course, this universe exists because of God's will and if that changed for a moment the whole existence would cease to exist, but God doesn't make decisions or change His decisions like us. At the same time I believe that God does interfere with the affairs of our universe directly or indirectly as He sees fit.

Also, science is inherently incapable to understand and speak about anything out of it's sphere of control. No one should be looking for science to point to God at any point to explain what it has found or as a way to explain the laws of nature. God has created the quantum laws just as He has created all the other laws. I think with a slight change of perspective everyone will be able to see the real harmony in creation, science and religion.

Truthseeker96

Fadl, i like this sort of science shows as well!! when i saw this i did think it was trying to pull on random strings and somtimes didnt really see an connection between the ideals. Do u know any better science shows names, if you do can u tell me the title inwould love to see them. And although its off topic can you explain what you mean how you dont think God exists. Lol if you dont mind but thats sounds really interesting.

Robertus

I watched it and it's an ok show. It's just the typical New Atheist Naturalistic Fallacy. Reminds a lot of "A Universe from Nothing" by the famous Atheist Physicist Lawrence Krauss.

The Naturalistic Fallacy means that if you can describe an event you completely understand how it occurs. Clearly we may understand "Love" works through certain chemicals in the brain but is that really love? If someone says that Love or spiritual experience is "nothing but" such and such without giving proof then they've committed this Logical Fallacy.

That's kinda what that show was based on. Just my opinion though.

tonyfish58

I did not see all the show - But I have been reading Abdul'baha's Tablet of the Universe - Wow you can get a lot out of this.

Link - Tablet of the Universe

I like this statement

"Know then that, as hath been clearly handed down in the accounts of old, these great orbits and circuits fall within subtle, fluid, clear, liquid, undulating and vibrating bodies, and that the heavens are a restrained wave because a void is impossible and inconceivable. All that may be said is that the celestial bodies and the material bodies of the ethereal regions differ in respect of some of the substances and elements from which they are constituted, the quantities and proportions of these that go into their composition, the peculiar characteristics causing the difference in the outward effects of these bodies, and the properties that emanate from them in rich abundance. The celestial bodies that surround the material bodies also differ one from another in respect of subtlety, fluidity, and weight. It cannot be otherwise for a void is impossible".

Cheers Tony

Fadl

Sure!

A few modern ones which I like are actually series. For example, "Through the worm hole" is a very well done show hosted by Morgan Freeman, and is in its second season now. I highly recommend it.

Another new and great one is Nova's four part series "Fabric of the Cosmos," by Brian Green which accessible, informative, and enjoyable.


Why I say God doesn't 'exist' (although I most definitely believe in God) is something I've discussed before here, and if I knew how to work the forum better, I'd just reference the link! Since I'm not that clever, here is why I say this in a nutshell:

All existence is the creation of God. That includes the sub atomic particles, the laws that govern them, right up to the universe (or universes, as it may be). God said 'be' and all things were. Then how could God be in any way associated with any of these things when He created them? If all creation, all things, are the handiwork of God, then God is logically not a thing (nothing) or else we would be confronted with the absurdity that the Creator is himself somehow composed of the things He created.

basically saying "there is no God," or "there is God" are equally flawed and equally valid. Human thought and expression are simply not up to the task of making any statement about God's essence or 'reality'.

When an atheist says "God doesn't exist" I agree for the simple fact that we exist and are the Creation of God. Can we the creation (existence) be the same 'substance' (lacking a better word) as the Creator? So basically, if we exist, God can't. If God exists, then we can't.

Baha'u'llah tells us God is the 'unknowable essence' and that is probably the best definition available to us. When we say "God is...." it is as if we actually know something about him, when in reality we just can't.

Yeshua

I love through the wormhole. Its not broadcast in the UK but I watch it online. In Britain we also have incredible science programs by stephen hawking and Brian Cox (both professors). And brother Fadl I am in awe of your intellect. btw I have to write a little more succinctly because im writing on my phone on a train to university.

InvestigateTruth

I wouldn't think that God created any science at all. The laws of science has been always with God's knowledge. So, it's not like God at some point decided to create them.

Also, I don't think it is scientific/logical to say that God is not needed for the universe to exist, unless, the science can fully explain everything, which the current science cannot.

tonyfish58

From what I am currently reading I have this understanding (it may change )

To me all things come from God as it was God who "hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence."

God allowed the "effects of these names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds".

"He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence".

These Names and Attributes to me are the Manifestations & it is further explained about mans knowledge...

"Consider this marvelous cycle, this great matchless dispensation and say: Glorified be God, Lord of the Exalted Throne, for He hath manifested the Sun of Oneness and the Eternal Reality from this lofty and majestic, this mighty and ancient Horizon in such wise that when its ardent penetrating rays shone upon the empty worlds and desolate realms the realities of all things and the universal meanings sprang forth and were renewed through its regenerative power the hidden mysteries of the sciences, which discover the divine realities, were made known, and the guarded, preserved Secret and the Hidden Sign became manifest. For this sublime cycle, this most great Dawntide is the dispensation of truths and mysteries, of the gathering-up of the affairs of the Merciful in the centre of lights, and of the appearance of the hidden treasures in the midmost heart of the worlds of Thy Lord, the Almighty, the Unconstrained. In the reality of drops seas of divine verses surge and in the essence of atoms suns of names and attributes are manifest. In our times scientists are discovering in the strata of rocks secrets that their predecessors could not discover in perspicuous tablets of light. That is because in this most great manifestation, without investigation or deduction the gates of revelation and discovery have been thrown wide open".

As science comes from God - Without God science will go nowhere - IMHO

"Know thou that the expressions of the creative hand of God throughout His limitless worlds are themselves limitless. Limitations are a characteristic of the finite, and restriction is a quality of existent things, not of the reality of existence.

This being the case, how can one, without proof or testimony, conceive of creation being bound by limits? Gaze with penetrating vision into this new cycle. Hast thou seen any matter in which God is bounded by limits which He cannot overstep? Nay, by the excellence of His glory! On the contrary, His tokens have encompassed all things and are sanctified and exalted beyond computation in the world of creation".

Regards Tony