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11-04-2006, 12:19 PM
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| The Evil Visir  Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 131 From: Chapel Hill |  Free-Will/Determinism
So in philosophy there is the debate about which theory is correct. Free-will or determinism--since they both cannot be true. Are all our actions determined by a causal chain, or do we choose our actions? You'd be amazed how complex this issue is in philosophy, and to me i have to keep asking myself how much of a waste of time it is. But without getting into that stuff, what do you guys think about the "problem"? 'Abdu'l-Baha has a section in SAQ on it: FREE WILL Question. -- Is man a free agent in all his actions, or is he compelled and constrained? Answer. -- This question is one of the most important and abstruse of divine problems. If God wills, another day, at the beginning of dinner, we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail; now we will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows. Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will. For example, if he wishes, he can pass his time in praising God, or he can be occupied with other thoughts. He can be an enkindled light through the fire of the love of God, and a philanthropist loving the world, or he can be a hater of mankind, and engrossed with material things. He can be just or cruel. These actions and these deeds are subject to the control of the will of man himself; consequently, he is responsible for them. Now another question arises. Man is absolutely helpless and dependent, since might and power belong especially 249 to God. Both exaltation and humiliation depend upon the good pleasure and the will of the Most High. It is said in the New Testament that God is like a potter who makes "one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour."[1] Now the dishonored vessel has no right to find fault with the potter saying, "Why did you not make me a precious cup, which is passed from hand to hand?" The meaning of this verse is that the states of beings are different. That which is in the lowest state of existence, like the mineral, has no right to complain, saying, "O God, why have You not given me the vegetable perfections?" In the same way, the plant has no right to complain that it has been deprived of the perfections of the animal world. Also it is not befitting for the animal to complain of the want of the human perfections. No, all these things are perfect in their own degree, and they must strive after the perfections of their own degree. The inferior beings, as we have said, have neither the right to, nor the fitness for, the states of the superior perfections. No, their progress must be in their own state. [1 Rom. 9:21.] Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam. 250 In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself. So if a king should appoint someone to be the governor of a city, and should grant him the power of authority, and should show him the paths of justice and injustice according to the laws -- if then this governor should commit injustice, although he should act by the authority and power of the king, the latter would be absolved from injustice. But if he should act with justice, he would do it also through the authority of the king, who would be pleased and satisfied. That is to say, though the choice of good and evil belongs to man, under all circumstances he is dependent upon the sustaining help of life, which comes from the Omnipotent. The Kingdom of God is very great, and all are captives in the grasp of His Power. The servant cannot do anything by his own will; God is powerful, omnipotent, and the Helper of all beings. This question has become clearly explained. Salutations (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 249) |
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11-04-2006, 07:31 PM
| #2 |
| Senior Member  Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 733 From: California |
I don't think the line between freewil and determinism can easily be drawn... there's a pilgrim note to this effect that the Guardian made that observation... Usually the more determined aspects of nature are around us but the area of free will is possible within the social context...that is we experience freedom to choose and take responsibility: "In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself." As Baha'is we do not accept total predestination but rather accept freewill by human beings. - Art |
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11-06-2006, 02:39 PM
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| The Evil Visir Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 131 From: Chapel Hill | Quote:
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11-06-2006, 07:00 PM
| #4 |
| Senior Member  Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 133 From: Oregon, USA |
Even in the deliberations of theoretical science and physics, there have puzzled the greatest scientific minds. The unanswered questions allude to a scientific awareness that there must be a God! Einstein was a proponent of a deterministic universe – If the location, mass, energy, and momentum of each object was known at a given instant in time, then the future of the universe can be determined.. Heisenberg was a proponent of uncertainty – related to the physics of subatomic particles, atoms, and molecules – states that the act of measuring such items alters their behavior. We cannot know the location and energy attributes of all entities, but only the statistical probabilities of their activities and behaviors – such as the throw of dice; which perplexed Einstein. Neil's Bohr attempted some reconciliation by using both theories in his view of science. Einstein's dilemma was to codify the mind of god. The macro world seems well ordered, but the micro world is described in theories of chaos and confusion. How is it then that such an unordered and chaotic universe can be well ordered at the macro scale? Sincerely, Steven J. Hathaway |
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11-07-2006, 10:30 PM
| #5 |
| Senior Member Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 133 From: Oregon, USA |
Back to the question! - related to physics The theory of a deterministic universe, the macro universe, is the order supplied by God. The chaos of the micro universe is likened to free will. Both universes are sanctioned by the All Mighty! Indeed, God is the Lord of All Worlds. Sincerely, Steven J. Hathaway |
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11-09-2006, 11:18 AM
| #6 |
| The Evil Visir Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 131 From: Chapel Hill |
Good stuff Shath! this is some good food for my mind! here is what i'm working on now: i'm trying to find some theory which would explain both the macro view of determinism and the micro view of indeterminism/free-will. of course, i'm a philosophy major, so i don't have access to physics, at least right now. but i think that there are viable explanations that haven't been explored in philosophy, one of which i think may be alluded to in SAQ when 'Abdu'l-Baha talks about the problem of Evil. here is one simple analogy that i'm working with by P.F. Strawson: When you look at a drop of blood in your hand, it appears red. but when you look at the same blood through a microscope, it is no longer red. hence, there is a logical contradiction in the qualities we percieve from the blood: its redness and non-redness. though this is a logical contradiction, we do not consider it a practical contradiction. so, in the universe we find logical contradictions but somehow the universe is still unified and working. to make the story short, the universe only works if we assume these logical contraditions to be sorted out in some way we don't understand--and possibly we may never understand. Last edited by Jafar; 11-09-2006 at 11:25 AM. |
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01-15-2007, 07:01 PM
| #7 |
| Senior Member Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 133 From: Oregon, USA |
I now have more time to ponder various issues. I had to spend some quality time with my extended family. Question? What is the nature of life? The answer appears to be chaos. But if you look at religion and social moralities, there is a set of guiding principles that can give order to this chaos. Whenever chaos is misdirected, the consequences can be drastic. But when the chaos of life is operating in harmony with divine guidance, the outcome is the substance wherein miracles reside. In His Service, Steven J. Hathaway |
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01-20-2007, 07:58 PM
| #8 |
| Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 733 From: California | Hacking into the universe...
Maybe you guys have already heard about this but to me an interesting concept was developed by Seth Lloyd of seeing the universe as a computer: "We couldn't build quantum computers unless the universe were quantum and computing. We can build such machines because the universe is storing and processing information in the quantum realm. When we build quantum computers, we're hijacking that underlying computation in order to make it do things we want: little and/or/not calculations. We're hacking into the universe." http://www.technologyreview.com/prin....aspx?id=17091 Allah'u'Abha! - A rt |
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05-19-2009, 10:50 AM
| #9 |
| Junior Member Joined: May 2009 Posts: 7 From: Marseille |
All theese questions should be answered by experience. Try it, and the world shall tell of God shall explains you. Well, is there a so big difference ? First believe you are totally free. Do exactly what you want, express your free will in all cases. Just don't forget to pray everyday, not as an obligation, but believe that prayer is only a compass that guide your life. Day after day, experiment more and more to the extreeme. I can tell you that is the way you shall learn what is really determinism ! |
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05-19-2009, 10:53 AM
| #10 |
| Junior Member Joined: May 2009 Posts: 7 From: Marseille |
Athra, just remember that yes the spirit of the universe is just like a gigantic calculator. But you are not kacking into it. Remember that each time you try to use your knowledge and ways, you just are playing chess with God. Take care to never loose the game. Otherwise, you shall loose more than you ever think !
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08-10-2009, 08:59 AM
| #11 |
| Junior Member Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 6 From: Warrenton, Virginia |
I wrote the following essay a few years ago FREE WILL AND PREDESTINATION – BOTH ARE TRUE We are taught that God is the Creator of all things and is possessed of the attribute of Omniscience. (FN1) We are further taught that we have “Free Will”. (FN2). How can both be true? (FN3) As a means to answer this question, I propose the following thought experiment. (FN4) Can we agree that choice is a necessary property of free will? (FN5) If so, can we further agree that choice requires alternatives in opportunity and contingency in outcome? If so, the Divine attribute of “Omniscience” requires that all such alternatives and contingencies be eternally known to God and the Divine name “Creator” requires that what is within the knowledge of God must also be the creation of God. (FN6) In other words, all potential alternatives and contingencies from the beginning that precedes time to the end that is beyond time must be eternally and ontologically present in the Mind of God. (FN7) You may ask: how can God’s Omniscience be eternal when the First Cause must precede its result? (FN8) As a first response, please consider that God is independent of time. (FN9) As a second response, please consider the proposition that knowledge of the first cause in a finite causal regression is also knowledge of each outcome even in contingency where the first cause renders all possible outcomes ontologically inevitable in their contingency. (FN9A) You may ask how can God create that which is contingent and not be the cause of its actualization. As response, please consider that you and I have certain knowledge of many things for which we are not the cause. From this can we at least agree that the knowledge of a thing is not necessarily its cause? (FN10) If so, remembering that this is merely a thought experiment, we are now ready to posit as a fundamental law of nature that all possible quantum states and quantum histories are present within the initial state. You may ask: Are there presently scientific theories which support this structure? With the preface that any quantum interpretation remains speculative, I believe that there are. (FN11) You may ask: Doesn’t creation begin with the “Big Bang”? In the same way as all possible quantum states and quantum histories are present, all possible universes, each with its own commencing "Big Bang" will exist reflecting every stable solution to quantum mechanics’ equations. (FN12) You may ask: Would not the existence of all possible quantum states and quantum histories within the initial state exceed the information capacity of the Universe? Possibly, but only if the preexist contingency involved extension, such that the plank length limitation was applicable, and each arising universe constituted a closed system. (FN13) How then would predestination operate within this structure? The Physicist, Murray Gell-Mann, has written as follows: “If we look at the way the universe behaves, quantum mechanics gives us fundamental, unavoidable indeterminacy, so that alternative histories of the universe can be assigned probability. Sometimes the probabilities are very close to certainties, but they're never really certainties. And often the probabilities are quite distributed. As a result the alternative possible histories of the universe form a kind of branching tree. … Now, what that means is that there is fundamental indeterminacy from quantum mechanics, but besides that there are other sources of effective indeterminacy. A famous one is the phenomenon of chaos, one that's recently become famous. Of course the word chaos is used in rather a vague sense by a lot of writers, but in physics it means a particular phenomenon, namely that in a nonlinear system the outcome is often indefinitely, arbitrarily sensitive to tiny changes in the initial condition.” (Murray Gell-Mann, Ph.D; “The Simple and The Complex Part I: The Quantum and The Quasi-Classical; transcript from the series Thinking Allowed, Conversations On the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery, with Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove. THE SIMPLE AND THE COMPLEX Part I: THE QUANTUM AND THE QUASI-CLASSICAL with MURRAY GELL-MANN, Ph.D.) The position I have advanced is entirely consistent with this probabilistic universe model. Please consider the following thought experiment. We will first posit that at the moment of my birth, all potential activities of my life were pre-existent and a probability was attached to each outcome that might occur. We will further posit that based upon the collective probabilities of the Nature and Nurture that I might experience during my life, the activities most probable for tomorrow were evil act X and good act Y and that at the time of my birth I had a X% and Y% probability of doing each of these acts on that date. However, at the time of my birth, there were also a range of potential acts for tomorrow with a probability attached to each. Now, let us assume that through the collective choices that those in my nurture group and I make, by the time I graduate college, the probability for both acts X and Y to occur were reduced to zero and evil act A and good act B were now the most likely. Further, the percentages had changed such that there was a much greater chance that I would perform the good act B than the evil act A. As of today, my choices for tomorrow are fairly limited. Possibly even acts A and B are no longer options. Instead, acts that had an exceedingly small probability of occurrence when I was born or graduated from college will now be most likely occur. If over the years, I, through the choices I have consistently made have formed habits of doing good, I will have a high probability of doing good tomorrow. The converse would also be true. This is the nature of "free will" that this model is describing. Clearly, the range of choices available to us at any point in our lives is, and must be, constrained and limited. However, within each range of choices, we have “free will” even though, as the cumulative result of our “Nature” and “Nurture”, differing probabilities may apply to each available alternative. (FN12 and FN 14) Question. -- Is the predestination which is mentioned in the Holy Books a decreed thing? If so, is not the effort to avoid it useless? “Answer. -- Fate is of two kinds: one is decreed, and the other is conditional or impending. The decreed fate is that which cannot change or be altered, and conditional fate is that which may occur. So, for this lamp, the decreed fate is that the oil burns and will be consumed; therefore, its eventual extinction is a decree which it is impossible to alter or to change because it is a decreed fate. In the same way, in the body of man a power of life has been created, and as soon as it is destroyed and ended, the body will certainly be decomposed, so when the oil in this lamp is burnt and finished, the lamp will undoubtedly become extinguished. But conditional fate may be likened to this: while there is still oil, a violent wind blows on the lamp, which extinguishes it. This is a conditional fate. It is wise to avoid it, to protect oneself from it, to be cautious and circumspect. But the decreed fate, which is like the finishing of the oil in the lamp, cannot be altered, changed nor delayed. It must happen; it is inevitable that the lamp will become extinguished.” (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 244) “Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same. The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.” (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 132) “Thou hadst asked about fate, predestination and will. Fate and predestination consist in the necessary and indispensable relationships which exist in the realities of things. These relationships have been placed in the realities of existent beings through the power of creation and every incident is a consequence of the necessary relationship. … These relationships constitute predestination, and the manifestation thereof in the plane of existence is fate. Will is that active force which controlleth these relationships and these incidents. Such is the epitome of the explanation of fate and predestination.” (Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 198) FOOTNOTES: (FN1) “[T]he reality of Divinity is characterized by certain names and attributes. Among these names are Creator, Resuscitator, Provider, the All-Present, Almighty, Omniscient and Giver. These names and attributes of Divinity are eternal and not accidental. This is a very subtle point which demands close attention. Their existence is proved and necessitated by the appearance of phenomena. For example, Creator presupposes creation, Resuscitator implies resuscitation, Provider necessitates provision; otherwise, these would be empty and impossible names. Merciful evidences an object upon which mercy is bestowed. If mercy were not manifest, this attribute of God would not be realized. The name Lord proves the existence of subjects over whom sovereignty is exercised. (Abdu'l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 271-2) (FN2) "Man's physical existence on this earth is a period during which the moral exercise of his free will is tried and tested in order to prepare his soul for the other worlds of God, …” (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 367) (FN3) “How wonderful that we have met with a paradox. Now we have some hope of making progress.” Niels Bohr, physicist (FN4) “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere … There is no logical way to the discovery of these elemental laws. There is only the way of intuition, which is helped by a feeling for the order lying behind the appearance. Albert Einstein (FN5) “Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; … in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” (Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 248) (FN6) The name Omniscient demands the objects of all-knowing. Unless these objects existed, omniscience would be meaningless and without function. The name the Wise necessitates objects for the exercise of wisdom; and unless wisdom comprehended them, this name would be inconceivable. Therefore, the divine names and attributes presuppose the existence of phenomena implied by those names and attributes. And vice versa -- the sovereignty of God is proved and established through their verity and being.” (Abdu'l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 272) (FN7) “Ponder over the contingent realities, their mysteries, wisdom, connection and relations.” (Abdu'l-Bahá, Tablets of Abdu'l-Bahá v1, p. 55) “The pre-existence of God is the pre-existence of essence, and also pre-existence of time, and the phenomenality of contingency is essential and not temporal....” (Abdu'l-Bahá, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Bahá Section, p. 315) (FN8) Existence is of two kinds: one is the existence of God which is beyond the comprehension of man. He, the invisible, the lofty and the incomprehensible, is preceded by no cause but rather is the Originator of the cause of causes. (Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Bahá, p. 61) (FN9) There is an eternity of essence, that which is without first cause, and an eternity of time, that which has no beginning. (Abdu'l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 106) (FN9A) “…[T]he knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence. (Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 138) (FN10) “The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God. … [T]he knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence. (Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 137-138) (FN11) Many interpretations of quantum mechanics have been advanced. Interpretation of quantum mechanics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia As noted by Stephen Hawking in “A Brief History of Time” (Chapter 8) “We don’t yet have a complete and consistent theory that combines quantum mechanics and gravity. However, we are fairly certain of some features that such a unified theory should have. One is that it should incorporate Feynman’s proposal to formulate quantum theory in terms of a sum over histories. In this approach, a particle does not have just a single history, as it would in a classical theory. Instead, it is supposed to follow every possible path in space-time, … http://www.physics.metu.edu.tr/~fizi...hawking/g.html (see also ]Error That which I have posited (See Ontology as Poem) would be considered a “Multiverse” hypothesis []Error but must be distinguished from Everett’s many worlds interpretation in that the posited multiverse precedes, and does not arise from, the quantum or measuring event. Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The posited hypothesis is similar to the “Consistent Histories” interpretation of James Hartle, Murray Gell-Mann Roland Omnčs, Robert B. Griffiths, Wojciech Zurek and others Consistent histories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (see also Gell-Mann’s The Quark and the Jaguar; and Quantum Philosophy (book) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which requires that we consider “the quantum state of the universe” and all possible quantum histories of the universe from its initial state. Because within my posited hypothesis all possible quantum states and quantum histories are deemed ontologically present within the initial state, it also resembles the “Ultimate Ensemble” speculation []Error, which stipulates that all structures that exist mathematically exist also physically, but must be immediately distinguished from this speculation in that the contingent forms of my postulate exist only within the wavefunction until actualized. Although actualization appears to collapse the wave function []Error into a new Born probability []Error for any consequent event, I believe the posited hypothesis is also fully compatible with quantum decoherence []Error. The appearance of wave function collapse in the posited hypothesis requires it to be distinguished from the “Bohm Interpretation” although, as can be seen from “Ontology as Poem” (and may be made express in a later posts) it has as its hidden anthropic variable the waveform of the “Word”. (FN12) In Brane Cosmology all of the possible geometries arising from String Theory’s multiple dimensions result in an innumerable array of possible or contingent universes. As one variant to this theory, any given solution to string theory’s equations represents a unique configuration of space and time, which means that no universe could have any knowledge of any other universe. As each solution determines a unique vacuum energy state, quantum processes dictate that a few rare and random points within each universe will spontaneously configure from an existing higher vacuum energy state to some lower state. If this new configuration constitutes a stable solution to the string theory equations, a new universe will result. Intriguingly, each such universe, from the frame of reference of any sentient beings within that universe, would appear as a “Big Bang”. Because the quantum tunneling is a random process, widely separated locations in the universe will decay through different sequences of vacua. In this way, the entire landscape is explored; every stable vacuum occurs in many different places in the universe. Pursuant to this theory, the whole universe is therefore a foam of expanding bubbles, each with its own laws of physics. Extremely few of the bubbles are suitable for the formation of complex structures such as galaxies and life. Our entire visible universe [more than 20 billion light years in diameter] is a relatively small region within one of these bubbles. (For more information please see: “The String Theory Landscape”, Scientific American, September 2004, p 86) http://users.msu.dubna.ru/~johncorne...se/2004sep.pdf (see also: Brane cosmology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Quantum Field Theory and Brane Cosmology, if true, promise a scientific framework wherein each universal may be seen as a particular of the next higher universal. The resulting regression, however, may not be dismissed as infinite but has at its terminus a single unified field that manifests the greatest possible energy/information state of which such fields may be capable. As our specific Big Bang is merely the commencement event for our bubble, within the foam of other universes, it loses all unique significance. (FN13) The information capacity of the universe “…is defined by the maximum amount of information that the universe can possibly have processed since its origin in a Big Bang. Seth Lloyd of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has computed this to be about [10 to the 120th power] bits (2000 Nature 406 1047 and 2002 Phys. Rev. Lett. 99 237901). A system that requires more than this quantity of information to describe it in detail is so complex that the normal mathematical laws of physics cannot be applied to arbitrary precision without exceeding the information capacity of the universe. Cosmology thus imposes a small but irreducible uncertainty, or fuzziness, in the operation of physical laws.” (Reprinted in Physics Web http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/18/12/2) This limitation is not applicable if each universe constitutes an open system. This issue, however, is best addressed in the context of the anthropic principle. Anthropic principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (FN14) Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God's mighty and guarded Tablets. All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth. … Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand. Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 149-150) |
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08-10-2009, 09:00 AM
| #12 |
| Junior Member Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 6 From: Warrenton, Virginia |
The speculative physics that that relates to this question is discussed in the following paper http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?2h2nkhmddty Last edited by Trevathan; 08-10-2009 at 09:04 AM. |
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08-10-2009, 11:02 AM
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Wow! an interesting subject and one I have thought much about without delving into quantum physics. When I read what you have written, as someone with some mathematical background and not much knowledge of quantum physics, I am struck by how much more accessible Abdul-Bahá's explanation is and wonder if the question "Why?" rather than "how?" is not the one that is the ultimate question for me. Personally in exploring why we have been given free will, I feel closer to understanding the purpose of life. However, I see much in mathematics (at not such a high level either) which helps me futher my understanding of the concept of the infinite and I found what understood of what you had written very interesting. This is one thing I love about the internet - the chance to be exposed to radically different perspectives. |
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11-08-2009, 02:07 PM
| #14 | |
| Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 39 From: California | Quote:
It is similar to our ability to move under our own steam(spirit) and the direction we choose. Now, the direction can be influenced say by the winds, the storms the urgency of the trip, the cargo and whatever motive there might be other than the actual ability to steam under it. Free will, then is limited as you said to the undetermined conditions, but not limited to the determined conditions as we so judge. What God has given us is the ability to steam via the machinery to produce steam which, in similarity, is our spirit that exists for the livelihood of the body. Without it, the body dies. Because we are constrained by certain determined conditions, we are nudged here, there as a form of spiritual guidance towards a goal of God's choosing. Consider the part of a parent who brought into the world a child. The child was given life, body and spirit, by the parents as a self propelled vehicle, making of the child an independent individual with properties to in time make its own decisions. Mean time, the child is constrained to the guidance and limitations imposed by the parents until such time that the child becomes independent from the parents, that the child now a grown up, mature individual, charts its own course. So, in summation, the free will part gifted us is in actuality free will, and are given the experience of this world to mold and fashion it to the tune of consequences. Blessings or cursing in the experience. The salvation of the ship in full steam is the new machinery that lasts longer than the previous machinery and even forever. A retrofit is the only way, path to the everlasting steam, and that steam no longer propels the ship, but atomic energy. Those who have made the retrofit active in their lives will not run out of fuel. Blessings, AJ | |
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11-09-2009, 05:48 AM
| #15 |
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I like this analogy and it is not one that I have heard before. All that I would comment is that I would not presume that all nudges that the ship gets are guiding it towards the right path!
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11-09-2009, 10:10 AM
| #16 | |
| Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 39 From: California | Quote:
Now evil done by humanity is also steered by God's hand in that He allows or detours evil to take effect. Noted in the bible stories of how God uses the evil intents of mankind to corrective actions to His own people. Not that God is evil, but that He uses the things of the world to correct us. ie. Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. The nudging here is corrective action by God to effect the way that His people should go, even though they may have strayed. In that respect, our free will is acted upon much as a parent acts in correcting a child when the child wants to do something that would hurt him. Earthly parents stop correcting (to a certain degree) when the child reaches independence, but God continues throughout the individuals life. That is why as parents we can only place them into Gods hands when they become independent, for we no longer have control over our restraints on them. Because we have the machinery to steam on, as a God given right, does not give us a right to neglect responsibility to steam in the right path. Blessings, AJ | |
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11-09-2009, 04:42 PM
| #17 |
| Member |
I was referring more to the tests that sometimes beset us that seem to test that we will use our free will to strive to overcome them rather than just drifting the way we seem to be pushed. Many great achievments where good virtues are aparent in those participating happen as a result of obstactes overcome.
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11-09-2009, 05:06 PM
| #18 | |
| Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 39 From: California | Quote:
Our free will exercised in any predicament in a good/positive manor results in achievement of strength of character and faith in God. That is the achieved end result of why we are here in the first place, to learn to manage good and evil correctly. Blessings, AJ | |
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07-19-2010, 02:41 PM
| #19 |
| Junior Member  Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 19 From: Athol MA USA |
As a former atheist and philosophical materialist I used to think that I had the concept of free will perfectly figured out. Except to the extent that it implies a lack of external coercion it didn't make much sense. Free will means the ability to do what one wants. But your wants are not voluntary. You don't choose to want to eat a particular flavor of ice cream. So what you choose at any particular time is based on a number of unconscious factors which are not accessible to your "free will". It's possible to change those factors governing your wants, but only if you have personal insight and a good reliable method. And, of course, you must *want* to change them. I'm still a bit stymied about this. How does a person end up being a serial killer? To what extent can you blame him and to what extent is it the result of his environment and genetics. |
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07-19-2010, 04:28 PM
| #20 | |
| Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 39 From: California | Quote:
Such as: Time period in human history date of birth, race, world location, belief system and predetermined set of circumstances. I have but one example to justify what I said and that is found in scripture, Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Not only did God subject us to vanity, but also alienated us by reason of knowledge gained, making us as gods. But also the same, subjecting us to hope. What do I understand from all of that? Basically, God has made some vessels for honor, dishonor, vessels fitted for destruction and the vessels of mercy, all in all showing the power and the glory of God. All vessels of clay, designed for whatever purpose are placed into the fiery furnace to be baked by making as an end result, completed vessels. All vessels, baked the same, same end result, are then used for the purpose designed. Free will, then is contained to within that designed purpose. For example, Jesus, Judas, the High priests and the Roman empire, vessels fitted for dishonor, were instrumental in the bringing about the salvation of mankind. Jesus could have botched His mission as well as for Judas, the High priests and the Roman empire as well. Though their lives lived according to their wants and dislikes (Free will within those limits) in the world, the final end was designed. Serial killers, I believe are folks who are vessels fitted for destruction, designed to effect the vessels of mercy by making them exercise the Godly attitude within them to the glory of God. What doe that mean exactly? Vessels of mercy are the good folk, tested, tried and found good to the glory of God via the trials of this world, the suffering of injustices and of all those vessels fitted for destruction. Seems like all a Godly injustice to mankind, but really a blessing when one understands, that prior to life in the flesh there was no you, but after the flesh, now is you, a soul, destined to glory via the Son of God making appropriations for you, me and all vessels made to life ever more. If you could understand all that, you'd see an appreciation for all that God does. My views only. Blessings, AJ | |
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07-19-2010, 09:35 PM
| #21 |
| Junior Member Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 19 From: Athol MA USA |
That's too much injustice for me to swallow. If the evil men were created to do evil then they aren't guilty of their sins any more than the gun that kills someone is guilty of the murder. Another way to see the inequity is that violent people tend to be the victims of violence as children. It seems like injustice on a cosmic scale for these people to be predestined by a benevolent God to suffering and hate. Or perhaps I'm just not wise enough to see the justice.
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07-19-2010, 11:24 PM
| #22 | |
| Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 39 From: California | Quote:
The first has to do with the spiritual state of mankind as created, and the spiritual state of mankind after the coming of Jesus. The other, has to do with personal behavior. In both cases, personal behavior warrants rewards and or curses regardless of religious or none religious beliefs. But the first, spiritual state of mankind, mankind had absolutely nothing to do with it, for God had caused mankind to obtain knowledge of good and evil, alienating mankind from God. This alienation was due to mankind becoming a separate entity (gods) and must needs, if mankind was to survive eternal alienation (death) needed saving. God in Jesus did just that, saves mankind by offering instead, Jesus, in exchange for all of mankind's penalty, death. In effect, what God did was give Jesus as a ransom for mankind, leaving the spiritual state of the human soul to Jesus as a life giver. God did all the work there. Now, what is left for mankind is human behavior, whose accountability has not changed regardless of the designed mission in life. We are accountable only to ourselves for our bad behavior and punishable in the flesh. You see, the one verse in Romans 8:20 states that we were/are subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by Him who also subjected us in hope. Though we can exercise a certain amount of free will, our end is predetermined, predestined to life after this one spiritually because of God's saving grace. There are human injustices subject to our own human laws and punishable by humans, such as serial killers and others law breakers. Some forfeit their earthly lives, while other pay the consequences imposed by humans. All in all, the end of us all is justified by the saving grace of God, which is a free gift, not merited, by good or bad works. There lies the crux in human thinking, is in injustice, but in God's view, it is saving His own creation. So, if you happen to acknowledge Gods love for you as having gifted you with life after this one, commencing with the day you do, eternity has begun for you. In appreciation, for His love, your efforts to live just and right, are acceptable to God, warranting blessing in the midst of sufferings. Let me site a few scriptures and you decide: Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Blessings, AJ | |
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07-20-2010, 03:36 AM
| #23 |
| Junior Member Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 19 From: Athol MA USA |
If you end up in hell for eternity then eternal life is hardly a gift. It's more of a curse. The first part has me completely baffled because God creates a condition knowing that his creation will fail. Now God created the criteria for failure. Then he creates the criteria for salvation, arbitrarily it seems to me. Why does killing his own son save everybody from a fate that God himself created them to fall into? It seems like a perverse game.
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07-20-2010, 08:43 PM
| #24 | |
| Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 39 From: California | Quote:
This is how i see it. God makes an earthen vessel of clay dirt. (earthen vessel = Eve) God breaths life into the clay vessel. (God's breath+ Adam) The marriage of the two = a living soul. A living soul becomes a separate entity, (gods, lower case g)and given the ability to reason, to make judgments between two extremes, good and evil. Ref: Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Thus the day knowledge is digested and understood, the living soul finds itself naked. (naked meaning, lack of Godly covering). The soul needs Gods covering but can not receive for the living soul is now a separate entity, a god with the ability to act on its own will. Because there is only one God, there can not be another, thus death to all others, meaning, all living souls. Now you have a picture of what I believe, based on all my studies, searches and gained understanding, of the works of God in the creation of humanity and the reasons why mankind became an outcast. (Metaphor -Cast out of the garden) The alternative: Ref: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, God knew that in the creation of individuality, a sacrifice had to be made. At first, the sacrifice was the living soul, both body and spirit, but as the creation story goes, there was another tree, which was with held from Adam & Eve to be introduced at a later date, thus completing the second half of the verse above. ( in red.) We can then say life in the flesh began with Adam and Eve as our first fleshly parents, but without the possibility of spiritual life after the death of the flesh. Hence the curse of spiritual death must be removed from mankind if, mankind was to gain access to Gods abode, called heaven. How did God do it? That is the question debated since God first made His appearance as a living soul in Jesus. Now, let me explain what, who Jesus is. Jesus is, like as Adam, a second type of Adam, but a new creation, born of the first (Flesh) yet, not of the spirit of man, but of God. Hence the references to Jesus being both as the son of man and as the Son of God. Jesus came: Ref: Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. This Son, Jesus is the real beginning of life, for the first beginning brought the flesh and death, while the second beginning brought life after death. In order for God to cover the whole of humanity in His saving plan, He must do it once and for all time, meaning, excluding no one soul, but all souls. In the fallowing verse we see three things: Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 1. wilderness is the world of the flesh, as a world set in motion. 2. destroyed the cities, is a metaphor of destroying the ego (cities) of mankind, what originally set mankind apart from God. 3. Set the prisoners free, is a play on words depicting Jesus breaking open the gates of hell (Hell, meaning a place where souls were held because as of yet, there was no saving grace) and setting them all free. OK, the picture I painted in summary is this: God created and God saves His creation. Some akin to us creating a poem on the computer, and if we did not make the point of saving it, may be erased upon shutting down the computer and loosing it. Basically, that is it in a nut shell, sort of speak. The rest of what we experience in life, trials and tribulations, are for our benefit, that is, if we are given the responsibility to exercise good in the midst of an evil environment. Being made free from the penalty of eternal separation, by God, our only responsibility remains that of "what ye sow that shall ye reap". The wages for our sins committed is death, meaning that at death, all dept is paid in full, and life in Christ begins for ever more. For those of us, given the responsibility of understanding God by faith, are responsible to be His witness of the love He has for us. Two commandments are binding to all humanity, love God and Neighbor. One can not love God and hate his neighbor, likewise, one can not love his neighbor and hate God, for the love of God is in both, the same. The first represents the first five Commandments (Spiritual =God), and the second, represents the world. (Neighbor = earthly) So, live your life according to the choosing of your beliefs. Do any one of the two Commandments, and you shall prosper, for in loving your neighbor, is to love God. Blessings, AJ | |
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07-20-2010, 09:20 PM
| #25 |
| Junior Member Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 19 From: Athol MA USA |
>OK, the picture I painted in summary is this: God created and God saves His creation. >Some akin to us creating a poem on the computer, and if we did not make the point of saving it, may >be erased upon shutting down the computer and loosing it. The difference being that the poem isn't sentient and doesn't suffer. The fact that God made us to suffer seems to put an added responsibility on Him. >Basically, that is it in a nut shell, sort of speak. >The rest of what we experience in life, trials and tribulations, are for our benefit, that is, if we are >given the responsibility to exercise good in the midst of an evil environment. Not all suffering is beneficial. Some suffering can be so intense that it crushes people's souls. The rest I didn't really understand. I'm not sure whether you believe sinners will go to hell, be destroyed or go to heaven. I know part of theology is coming up with justifications for the seeming injustices in life, but I think I'd rather not understand it than attributing to God something that I know isn't just. |
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07-20-2010, 11:44 PM
| #26 | |||
| Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 39 From: California | Quote:
Quote:
What profit is there for non suffering? Quote:
Hell was a place where un-regenerated souls were kept, until God in Jesus broke open the gates. The only one destroyed was Jesus, for the sins of the world were upon Him. Because God said of Him: Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Also : Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Blessings, AJ | |||
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07-21-2010, 04:08 AM
| #27 | |
| Member Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 53 From: Rockville, MD, USA | Quote:
But fortunately, that's not the case! I quote the Baha'i scriptures: "When they [men] are delivered through the light of faith from the darkness of these vices, and become illuminated with the radiance of the sun of reality, and ennobled with all the virtues, they esteem this the greatest reward, and they know it to be the true paradise. In the same way they consider that the spiritual punishment ... is to be subjected to the world of nature, to be veiled from God, to be brutal and ignorant, to fall into carnal lusts, to be absorbed in animal frailties, to be characterized with dark qualities ... these are the greatest punishments and tortures.... "...The rewards of the other world are the perfections and the peace obtained in the spiritual worlds after leaving this world ... the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world ... consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favours, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth. "The wealth of the other world is nearness to God. Consequently it is certain that those who are near the Divine Court are allowed to intercede, and this intercession is approved by God.... "It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice; for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have the power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God.... Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications. "Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state.... There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned. "Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world." ―Some Answered Questions, pp. 260-274 passim. Thus God, in His infinite Love and Mercy, assists even those who begin in the worst sort of hell (defined as spiritual separation from God) eventually to achieve Heaven (spiritual nearness to God)! Best! :-) Bruce | |
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07-21-2010, 12:22 PM
| #28 |
| Junior Member Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 19 From: Athol MA USA |
That makes more sense, thank you. The "Question of Evil" is a big stumbling block for me and it keeps leading me back to a non-theistic point of view which is where I came from originally. But atheism/naturalism ends up being a spiritual wasteland that I struggle to get out of.
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07-21-2010, 10:11 PM
| #29 |
| Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 39 From: California |
Personal merit is subject only to this world, assisted by the divine, not of this world, yet were it not for the divine intervention in behalf of mankind, the after world would be non existent. Relying on ourselves for the perfection required to enter the realm of the creator, can not be achieved, save the creator perfect us Himself. The creator having perfected us by His own righteousness, frees us from our own, which is the gift of life. Evil is but a stumbling block so that we may know to seek God for help and our salvation. There are many different views about who or what God is, of even if He does exist, but one thing the bible does state, is that the Creator loved His creation so much that He gave His only Begotten son for it. Having done that, releases all beliefs or non beliefs, under the banner of Gods love, from the penalty of eternal separation, by which the only requirement desired by God, is to love God and neighbor. One can get close to God in a personal manner, here and in the now without waiting for death. Blessings, AJ |
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07-21-2010, 10:35 PM
| #30 |
| Junior Member Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 19 From: Athol MA USA |
I feel like I get close to God by reading the works of Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha. I think the holy spirit shines through their writings. Jesus was certainly a manifestation of God, and the sayings that have survived are truly inspiring.
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07-21-2010, 10:51 PM
| #31 | |
| Member Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 39 From: California | Quote:
Obviously, you love God and your neighbor. Then there's nothing else to add, live right and just and may your relationship with God grow daily as you spirit prospers. Blessings, AJ | |
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