Zhang

Hello!

I'm brand new here to the Baha'i forums, and to the faith itself. I'm very glad to be here though!

I was hoping to jump right in and pose a question...most have been answered through simple searches, but I couldn't find any relevant info for one that has been on my mind for some time.

What is the Baha'i position on pre-Abrahamic religions? Not so much hinduism, but more so the religions of various tribal peoples (e.g. Native Americans, Australians, Samoans, etc.) There is such a diversity of religions in the world and the number of gods must certainly number in the hundreds.

Thanks so much.

---

I feel kind of silly, after some advanced searching I seem to have found a relevant thread.

Unity of Religion - Religions not mentioned by Baha'ullah?

Sorry for the useless post.

mat

Greetings.

I found a couple of notes which might be relevant to your research.

"It is possible the Indians of the Americas were influenced in the remote past by Prophets in Asia. But again, as there is nothing in our teachings about it, we cannot do more than speculate."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 25, 1950)

For more information check out : 'Prophets and Prophecies of Various Religions" #1683 onwards in Lights of Guidance

welcome again.

mat

KATHRIN

I like this forum, amazing and very informative,

arthra

Kathrin,

Welcome to the Forum!

Owings

If we recognize that the Faith preaches both a harmony of Science (Reason) and Religion, then would we not also recognize what academics have to say about religion?

I only raise this question because it's how I approach the religions you mention. I major in the "sociology of religion" -- how religion functions on a social level, and how individuals adjust (or refuse to adjust) their personal narratives of belief to broader community narratives. Durkheim and Eliade, in studying religion, saw this "idea" they labeled the "Sacred" as the basis of religion. While both had a very different understanding, they both agreed to its central role.

The "sacred" is socially defined, and evolves as society evolves. It represents not only the values of the society, but also the values of the individual. And its in worshiping and recognizing this sacred - as an individual and in a group - that we produce the emotional effect we call "spirituality."

I think that Pagans, Aborigine religion, Native American religions, and others -- all having a "Sacred" - are drawing from the same 'Sacred" (God the Most Glorious) we Bahá'ís are. As a Bahá'í I simply believe we have "greater access" to the Truth through Bahá'u'lláh. I don't doubt that wisdom is found in the traditions of these pre-Abrahamic faiths, but do not view the wisdom gained from these traditions is something essential to formulating Bahá'í doctrine. The fact that they understand the "Sacred" as a collective of many deities is simply a cultural difference.

andrewm

Apparently all mankind received guidance periodically some how - I guess we may never be sure which historical or mythical figures were Prophets, which were philosophers, wise men etc. Fascinating reading though.
Recently I was watching a program on CCTV which mentioned Fuxi who was a figure in Chinese history from 5000 years ago who " laid down the laws of humanity" and taught writing among other things. See Wikipedia for details.

BlinkeyBill

Dear Zang as a Baha'i I believe that Adam of the bible was in fact the first manifestation/messenger of God for the cycle that has ended with Mohammad, we are now in the new Cycle of Baha.

Sen McGlinn

See for example. Native Messengers of God in Canada?: A Test Case for Bahá'í Universalism, by Christopher Buck, Bahá'í Studies Review, 6, pages 97-133, online at Jonah Winter's Bahai library site.

mytmouse57

Indeed, I think that's true.

The discussion might deal with what took place in the cycle before the Adamic cycle. Perhaps the cycle in which humans began as stone-age bands of hunter/gatherers, and ended with great civilizations, such as the Maya or ancient Egyptians.

EternalStudent

Would you say that Göbekli Tepe would be part of the Adamic Cycle, or pre-Adamic? It is dated to be from about 9,000 BCE. That would make it around 12,000 years old, right? (Side note: This would possibly make it contemporaneous with Homo floresienisis (the "Hobbits" of Flores, Indonesia)) How long ago would you say the Adamic Cycle began?

mytmouse57

I would have no idea with the Adamic Cycle began. A couple thousand years before Moses, perhaps?

Jcc

There is no independent proof of when Adam actually lived. If you follow the literal timelines of the Bible ( maybe not reliable either) it places Him at about 6000 years ago. If you look at archaeological evidence, that is about the beginning of the Bronze Age and the beginning of written language, and the earliest cultures for which there are written histories. My feeling is that is a likely time for a new cycle to begin. God raised up a new creation, and a new state for mankind that led to unprecedented progress. Prior to that, all religious teaching was oral, not written, and as a result it would be difficult to preserve exact teachings for centuries as written scriptures do.

Jcc

This is a great reference, thanks for pointing it out. It implies, among other things, that the progressivity of progressive revelation depends on communication and the passing of information from older to newer Revelations, which is not possible where the cultures are isolated. This is further hampered where the cultures are pre-literate, so written artifacts can't be passed down. We know that Revelation occurred as long as humans have existed, possibly for millions of years, but it would be wrong to fabricate a connection between the Abrahamic religious traditions and that of native Americans, for instance, where there is no historic basis to do so.

smaneck

That's a pretty new find, so it wouldn't be mentioned in our scriptures. But personally I tend to associate Adam with the beginning of the Agricultural Revolution. Hence, the reference to Adam living by the sweat of his brow and having two sons, one a farmer and the other a herder. Gobekli Tepe appears to be built prior to the Agricultural Revolution, which is what makes it so amazing.

I think that species would have gone extinct just before this.

Zhang

Thanks again for bringing one of my old threads back to life.

Are you then saying that it's not mentioned in scripture because it was found after Baha'u'llah? Makes sense, a Prophet would have known of it...

arthra

Just a general reference I think to the cycles you may find reference to:

TABLE: BAHA'I SACRED HISTORY

I. PREVIOUS UNIVERSAL CYCLES - of which no trace remains

II. PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

A. ADAMIC CYCLE, CYCLE OF PROPHECY - lasted approximately 6,000 year

1. Adam 1. Indian religious figures
2. Noah - Krishna
3. Abraham
4. Moses 2. Zoroaster
5. Jesus 3. Buddha
6. Muhammad
+ Other unknown or unspecified prophets

B. BAHA'I CYCLE, CYCLE OF FULFILLMENT - to last 500,000 years

1. The Bab
2. Bahá'u'lláh - Universal Manifestation for this Universal Cycle
a. Heroic, Primitive, or Apostolic Age - 1844-1921 (or 1932 - the death of Bahiyyih Khanum)
i. Ministry of the Bab (1844-53)
ii. Ministry of Bahá'u'lláh (1853-92)
iii. Ministry of `Abdu'l-Bahá (1892-1921)

b. Formative, Transitional, or Iron Age - 1921 -

i. First Epoch (1921-44/46) - Erection of the Administrative Order

ii. Second Epoch (1946-63) - spread of the Faith beyond the confines of the Western Hemisphere

iii. Third Epoch (1963-86) - emergence of the Faith from obscurity and initiation of social and economic development plans

iv. Fourth Epoch (1986- ) - national communities taking on the responsibility for their own development

v. Successive further Epochs

c. Golden Age

Successive Epochs leading to the Most Great Peace

3. Further Manifestations - under the shadow of Bahá'u'lláh

END OF PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

III. FURTHER UNIVERSAL CYCLES

Find this in an essay here entitled Ages and Cycles by Moojan Momen:

Ages and Cycles

Jcc

Prophets know a lot of things they don't mention [john 16:12]. Baha'u'llah alluded to Manifestations prior to Adam, including that they did not have written language, so used other methods to transmit their teachings [Gleanings LXXXVII].

It may possible to decipher more about these ancient religions as more discoveries are made, but the purpose of every religion is to create a transformation in the people of the age in which they were revealed. Discussions of past and future Manifestations are secondary to that.

Zhang

Quoting that passage in John doesn't make much sense as John wasn't a prophet but only a person who wrote down the words of Jesus. This is different in that Baha'u'llah wrote down all of his material that he considered inspired and holy...

Jcc

That was the Gospel of John, Jesus said in that quote "I have many things to say to you but you cannot bear them now".

To me it seems pretty clear that He is saying that there are thing He knows that He is not saying yet because the people He was speaking to we're not prepared to hear them. Do you understand something different from that?

Khodrat

I was reading somewhere on this forum that unfortunately I can't find anywhere that it was possible that a spiritual leader may have existed in North America between the time of Prophet Muhammad and Baha'u'llah.

He was called the Great Peacemaker and he ended a lot of the fighting against warring tribes and also ended cannibalism among his own people; he existed between the 12th and 13th century, in other words, 600 years after Muhammad and 600 years before Baha'u'llah.

I'm not convinced he was a Manifestation but more of a spiritual teacher like Gandhi among his own people.

BruceDLimber

Art, to name two, you're omitting the known Messengers Hud and Sal'ih.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Zhang

I think you're referring to:

Deganawidah

EternalStudent

It is amazing, isn't it?

And possibly. If so it would have gone extinct literally just before this, since still today in Flores there are what I would call "cultural memories" of the Homo Floresiencis.