Iconodule

Concerning the fact that in the Bahai faith Manifestations are not on ontological par or equality with God. I'm talking with someone who considers the bahai as teaching what I as a Christian would say about Christ. That is Christ is on par and ontological equality with God. Which I know you guys would roundly condemn.

armin

The Unity of God states that all of His Prophets, Messengers and Manifestations are one and the same with Him. Stated from this perspective, claiming that His Manifestations and Prophets ontologically are one and the same as the Almighty Himself is correct.

On the other hand, the Singularity of the Almighty God as revealed by Baha'u'llah states, "Nay, I find myself to be altogether nothing when face to face with the manifold revelations of Thy names, how much less when confronted with the effulgent splendors of the light of Thine own Self."

In case you opened this discussion to yet again speak of trinity, I will say the following. The Almighty God is Self-Subsisting. From this perspective, claiming that Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit are on par with the Almighty God ontologically is blasphemy as it posits that there needs to be three self-subsisting beings. This claims three separate gods which not even Christians who believe in trinity dare say. From time immemorial He has declared Himself as one. Not even Jesus Christ made any allusions to a trinitarian god. When will the Christian world open their eyes to the truth! By the Almighty, the truth shines brighter than the sun. You perceive the singularity of the sun, but blindly follow the evil doers! And if you deny that the Almighty God is Self-Subsisting then you believe in Him not but the gods you have created as a result of your own vain imaginings.

Iconodule

That first statement confuses me in line with teh second because they contradict each other.

But I would dissagree Jesus made allusions to thet trinatarian God, but thats beyond the point. Thanks for teh quote. Can I have the specific reference from Mirza Al hussain's writings?

armin

It is confusing because we are speaking of the station of His chosen Ones. It is clear that man can not truly understand the station of His Prophets and Manifestations. Your fast hold to trinity must be even more confusing. When one can not understand the station of His Messengers and Manifestations, who dwelled among us on this very earth, how can one even hint at knowing the true Essence of the Almighty God!

I'll give an example to make the matter clearer. A man operates a robot. The robot was made as such that the man can live inside the robot and operate it without being seen or noticed by others. Then this outwardly robot comes in contact with men and says I am a man! All the people confused will deny him and say no you are obviously a robot! From the eyes of the robot operator he is a man like any other, but from the eyes of the people of the world he is only a robot, a machine.

The quote is from a prayer. You can find it here.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Prayers and Meditations by Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 192-196

LordOfGoblins

I think it would be true to say Baha'u'llahs writings can be subtle.
We have to read them and try to understand how the whole picture works.
I remember someone coming here and asking does Baha'u'llah ever directly say that he is Jesus Christ returned and a Bahai said 'you wont find that statement in the writings'.
I am not sure if that is true that there is no direct declaration of it but there is many indirect claims to show that he claimed to be Christ returned in the Glory of the father...
Baha'u'llah means Glory of God. His unique attritribute of his revelation is Glory. And we can see evidences of glorious sciences being unvieled as well as other glorious things showing the glory of the age we live in. And all those things are still not unvieled. There is more hints of it in the writings of how we are living in an age of splendours...

sorry i went on bit of a tangent..

LordOfGoblins

As for you, O ye lovers of God, make firm your steps in His Cause, with such resolve that ye shall not be shaken though the direst of calamities assail the world. By nothing, under no conditions, be ye perturbed. Be ye anchored fast as the high mountains, be stars that dawn over the horizon of life, be bright lamps in the gatherings of unity, be souls humble and lowly in the presence of the friends, be innocent in heart. Be ye symbols of guidance and lights of godliness, severed from the world, clinging to the handhold that is sure and strong, spreading abroad the spirit of life, riding the Ark of salvation. Be ye daysprings of generosity, dawning-points of the mysteries of existence, sites where inspiration alighteth, rising-places of splendours, souls that are sustained by the Holy Spirit, enamoured of the Lord, detached from all save Him, holy above the characteristics of humankind, clothed in the attributes of the angels of heaven, that ye may win for yourselves the highest bestowal of all, in this new time, this wondrous age.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 241)

Iconodule

The trinity isn't confusing, as much as people who don't want to understand simply don't want to understnad it and refuse. But are you suggesting it is possible within the bahai faith to consider Mirza All hussain and all the manifestations on equal ground to that of God?

That is might think of the manifestations as different persons of the same God? Because this is what I'm getting from what I am seeing. Unless there is a clear distinction to be made between the manifestations being Creations or not there seems to me an odd teaching there.