GenuineSeeker

Hello everyone!

This is my first post. I was curious to know if the Baha'i Faith condones the Mormon religion or believes Joseph Smith was a prophet. I have just done some reading about him and his wife and have discovered he started his plural wives practice secretly for many years after he had a huge following in Illinois. His wife, however, did not support him in this.

Do Baha'is believe EVERY religion is inspired by God, or just some. What do you believe about the LDS?

Thank you!

Zhang

J. Smith is not a recognized prophet.

Copied from another poster here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/bahai-faith-dir/72224-bahai-view-lds-founder-jospeh-smith.html

Blessings,

-张

GenuineSeeker

Thank you, Zhang. I have read George Townshend's Christ and Bahá'u'lláh but may have borrowed it as I cannot locate it. Do you remember the essence of what struck you the most regarding JS's station?

arthra

The end of chapter ten of George Townshend's book "Christ and Baha'u'llah" reads as follows:

Not poets alone but the generality of the people in town and in country, high and low, learned and unlearned, felt this new transcendent power stirring creation. The time was one of religious revival, of church building, of missionary expansion, the central motive being always the belief in the imminent coming of Christ. For a full generation and more men and women everywhere dreamed, thought, talked and discussed this Advent.

They met in church and chapel, in street and roadside, held assemblies and camp meetings that lasted far into the night. In many parts of England, in Southern Wales, in many parts of the United States from the East to the Middle West the fervor of the expectation spread.

Adventist sects were started, a few of which remain to the present day, such as the Latter Day Saints and the Seventh Day Adventists. So strong was the feeling in one shape or another that the Messianic expectation lasted through the whole of the nineteenth century and, reappearing in the apocalyptic sense of mission which has characterized communism and fascism, has tempted more dictators than one to regard themselves as Messianic beings.

For two centuries, it may perhaps be said, this new wave of power aected all the Western world except one section only, the institutions which claimed to be custodians of religious truth, which claimed to have a monopoly of keeping watch for Christ according to His command.

The old established, historic churches of Christendom showed themselves
irresponsive and uninterested. The false prophets had done their deadly work with full success. So misleading had been their interpretations of religious history that Christ had indeed come and no men had been so utterly ignorant of His presence as those who had appointed themselves to be His special guardians.

Iconodule

I'm going to borrow a bahai argument.

The Jews rejected Christ. Likewise the Christians rejected Muhammad. Likewise the Muslims rejected Mirza Ali Nuri. Likewise the Bahai rejected Joseph smith.

As for your question about bahais thinking every religion is inspired by God, they think this is the case. But it is extremely misleading especially when they tell you that Christianity is essentially manmade in all of its theological doctrines thus it really can't be inspired or of the Same God.

Emilia

Uh, technically speaking there were no Baha'is during the time of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith died in 1844, after the day when the Bab declared, but only by a couple of months.

When you take into account Baha'u'llah's statement:
It cannot possibly apply to Joseph Smith, because he was dead years before Baha'u'llah even "got the call" as it were.

So that argument is something of a chronology fail, sorry...

Correction: Nearly all.

That the Writings themselves don't bother enumerating which are not genuine and clearly do not only include those few mentioned among the valid shows a certain wisdom. Not to mention it may indicate what our own attitudes should be: If the Writings aren't stressing out about it, dunno why we as individuals should.

If you want to know what Baha'is think of Mormons it might be interesting to read a story recounted by Marzieh Gail about early Baha'is who came from Persia to the American West to study agriculture. They seem to have got along pretty well and had many values in common. They don't appear to have been rude to their hosts because of some theological differences.

I have no idea who the "they" is who told you that, but it appears to have been their personal opinion.

If you can find something in the Writings that says that, I'd be interested to read it.

Christianity is manmade in "all" its theological doctrines?

Since when?

LordOfGoblins

Bahais didnt reject him. He never claimed to be the return of Jesus or anything of that sort.
We accept him as a man sensitive to the spiritual currents of the age.
Which is actually more accepting than other CHristian groups are of him..

GenuineSeeker

What do you mean by "sensitive to the spiritual currents of the age." He sounds more like a con man. "Marrying" sixty something "wives?" Hum.

Iconodule

He claimed to a prophet nontheless and like the muslims who rejected Mirza Ali Nuri, the bahai also rejected Joseph smith. I'm just playing this game I am, of which this bahai argument is used, so as to merely demonstrate that it is flawed. That it doesn't prove a thing.

Of course Im glad you rejected his pagan teachings, Polytheism, Polygymy, poly this poly that, the mormons are literally crazy in terms of their doctrines which ammount to no coherrent sense. One doctrine I find particullarly fascinating is the idea that hte father has an eternal body, that is a body of flesh and bone (apparently he doesn't have a circulatory system, but has a skeleton). Or an infinite regress of past events or Gods happening from all eternity. Odd beliefs to say the less, at least within the context of traditional Christianity. I imagine they find quite a good deal in common with muslims and Muhammad on polygamy, but thats about it, that is before they abandoned that doctrine.

Iconodule

Joseph smith was no good spiritualist. Having even a basic knowledge of his life shows the events which surrounded him as odd and suspicious. One certaintly can't ignore the positive claims he made and say it doesn't matter whether he said he had golden tablets from the lost israelite tribe of North america. HIs honesty is something anyone must comment on before talking positive about the man.

Of course I think for the soul reason that he thought God as having a bdoy, and having lived in a world like ours before we existed on another planet and then becoming divinised would have entailed that bahais rejected him.

Iconodule

I doubt you could find anything in the creeds of the seven eccumenical councils which you would agree with. The canons and the rules, and the moral teachigns I am sure you would agree with as a bahai. But in terms of theological content we to the bahai must neccessarily be devoid of any theological truth. First we don't accept a unitarian God, we are trinitarians. We believe in the real ressurection as opposed to the unreal ressurection. We Believe salvation comes from the actions and incarnation of JEsus christ, that in God becoming man, we might also become like God. The list could theoretically go on forever. BUt we are the worst of all creatures when it comes to your God, we are blasphemers to your God.

GenuineSeeker

I am certainly not the belief police, but ALL Christians don't believe that Jesus BECAME God or was God. You seem to be speaking for all Christians. I think that is wrong. What you are stating is your opinion.

Many Christians believe he was and is the exalted Son of God and Son of Man. I would imagine there are many different sects believing many different things in Islam, as well. That is one of the areas I am studying, in any case, to learn what Mohammed really taught. Sometimes that gets muddied and distorted with time and with interpretations by various sects in all religions.

Iconodule

Yes all Christians do believe Christ is God. No Christian believes he became God. That is a strawman. The Jehovahs witnesses are not Christian. The arrians are not Christian. And yes I do think I can represent Christians on this most important matter because all the ancinet communions, all the new churches agree with this. At least hte ones that are Christian.

ButI look at Christianity Seeker, as a historic entity and trinity and the deity of Christ proceed out of that historic entity everytime it is examined.

GenuineSeeker

Thank you, arthra I remember reading about this in many other sources, as well. So interesting. People were obviously looking for something that they weren't getting in the churches.

Emilia

OK, let's start with the Virgin Birth then, which is a shared belief of Christian theology and Baha'is as well.

You'll have to quote me direct from the Writings before I accept that you are correct in telling me that I "must" believe anyone is "devoid" of theological truth.

Devoid does mean "completely lacking in" -- is there really anyone that has no shred of theological truth at all? Maybe a mad person? *scratches head*

Even so I don't know what's in their head and I sure cannot comment on the state of their soul. That's sort of above my pay grade, if you see what I mean.

Yes, and therein lies your logical problem. If the list goes on forever, eventually you may find one thing on which we agree, in which case the statement that Baha'is must consider you "devoid of theological truth" is disproved.

I already mentioned Virgin Birth, so you might want to restate your argument somewhat.

Again, cite the Baha'i Writings to support your case. Otherwise it's really no more than your (unwarranted) assumption and personal opinion.

None of which I recognize as any opinion I have of Christians, nor for that matter the opinion of any other Baha'i I know.

This, dear Friend, is what Baha'u'llah says on the matter:

Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship.

I am at a loss to understand how I can consort in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship while my mind is pondering the idea that everyone of a religion other than my own is "devoid of theological truth" and "blasphemous."

The cognitive dissonance, quite frankly, would likely be enough to make my head explode.

There are a few occasions when the term "blasphemy" turns up in the Writings. In exactly zero (0) is there any instruction or example of how a Baha'i should go around finger-pointing at how blasphemous anyone else supposedly is.

I find that telling.

Emilia

In any case, even if a Baha'i disagreed with trinitarian doctrine, I should hope they would recognize that within Christianity it's a case of "it is better to be unified than to be right."

If the Institution of Christianity in those first centuries had to tackle a thorny problem like the station of Christ, and they decided what they decided. Who exactly would we be to tell Christians they should become essentially Covenant Breakers in their own religion and exactly why would we do that? *puzzled*

Reading what the Universal House of Justice had to say about Bishop Arius could be really instructive on this point.

UHJ letter: arius.html

(Fun but unimportant fact: Bruce and I both know the Mr. ___ who posed the question and got to read the letter in the original. Fascinating stuff - both the question and response.)

Finally, on the subject of the nature of God and station of Christ, as I remarked to the Catholic priest when my husband and I were arranging for a wedding 27 some years ago, when I have "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" perfected, maybe I'll have time to worry my finite human mind about the minutiae of the nature of the Godhead.

Iconodule

, I appreciate your response but heres how I’m approaching it. By exclusion we see that Christian doctrine and bahai faith utterly reject one another, they cannot co mingle or co exist. Consider the statements of the Christian church(es), found mostly in the fathers and the creeds. All of these in someway fundamentally contradict the bahai faith. Lets start with some of the important ones.
The Incarnation – Bahai reject the incarnation and what it means, that is God became man so that man might become like God, taking on the divinity of God, not in a Ontological manner but participating within it. This is of course the eastern notion of salvation, theossis, but even the western notions of salvation which rely on God’s wrath being poured out on to Christ are contradictory to bahai.
The Church – Ecclesiology in the most ancient Chrisitan communions is important, the place of the Bishop is central within the organisation and power of the church. The bahai reject clergy, sacraments and many other things we receive from them.
Christ and the trinity – Need I say more? Our fundamental ideas on who God is utterly contradict. You say Christ is nto God, I say Christ is God. I say God is trinity, you say God is a Unitarian entity. This is probably the most decisive factor in what I said. That we cannot even agree on who God is, shows just how divided and untrue we must be to the bahai. That even the quran says we are blasphemers who make partners with allah (of course within the context of Christian theology this is ridiculous).
We see within these contradictions of the most important aspects of the faith, that I must submit to the bahai, if I were a bahai I could only view the Christians as having falled far astray, they no longer possess any real theological truths. Perhaps the morals of the fathers and the bible and the like are good, but their theological content is naught and cannot be trsuted.

And I cite the quran when I make reference that Christians are the worst of all believers. That is the quran is an authority for you right? And if the quran is not authority anymore, then that means at one time our theology (which hasn’t changed since Muhammad) was evil we were considered less than dogs.

Zhang

It also means that (for you, anyway) according to the old testament God was very fashion conscious and wanted nothing more than pure cotton to touch his believer. Leviticus 19:19

He also sent bears to kill innocent children. 2 Kings 2:23-24

He was also cool with slavery, and approved beating as a use of punishment. Exodus 21:20-21

The best way to get the job done was stoning. Leviticus 20:27

Pull out during sex? Nu-uh, that earns you one eternity of righteous fire. Genesis 38:9-10

So please stop using that same line, that the god of the Qur'an is evil so the Baha'i god is evil. Have you read the first half of your book? Your God loved doing elaborately violent things, and at one time children were the worst of all believers (He had forty-two of them torn to shreds because a few made a comment about someone being bald). Each time you use that line I (and many others) laugh because your are so blatantly ignoring your own Holy Book.

Your argument:

God of Qur'an is evil because he said Christians are the worst.

My argument:

Read the Bible, Part I.

NOTE: If you even think about using the term "straw man" either: 1) You are one also or 2) You are admitting that I am right.

Iconodule

Zhang in going to evil bible I think you show yourself as someone fundamentally ignorant.

Please watch this video actually explaining the account of the bears.



And quite frankly I have no problem with the specific laws of the Old testament, as I understand why they were there. They were there to show holiness, Gods impressively high standards and the punishments men deserve for breaking the law of God within the covenant. This was but a prefigure to Christ who would not give us law, but would give us grace, the grace of the moral law as we see in Saint Paul. But if you consider these evil of God, then why proceed to essentially believe in these books? Perhaps the bahai do not accept scripture afterall.

ANd my argument against the quran is quite clear, that it dehumizes Christians. Not even the pagans were dehumised in the bible, it was made clear in the bible that they would come to the truth eventually that they would see God and worship him and all would bend the knee to Christ and God.

Zhang

Can I show you a documentary detailing the civilizing force that came as a result of Islam? As well as the Muslims response to Christians and Jews, by sharing their mosques with them so they could pray on Sunday?

Or will you just write them off as savages?

The point I was trying to make was NOT that God was a savage, but that it's very easy to take a quote out of context and twist it to make it say that which it doesn't. Which I did above. I have actually seen that video a while back.

Iconodule

Then those muslims are violating the quran. How can they let a group pray in their mosque that worships a wholly foreign God. The worst of all creatures? And I will not doubt some of the achievements of islam but I will not sugar coat it and make it this rainbow fancy land that the west has made it become. Non muslims were second rate citizens in their own countries, and while they were semi protected it was not paradise for them. The Christians regaurded the islamic occupations of their lands as punishment for thier sins, so clearly it was not all happiness and sunshine. But I did not take the quran out of context.

In fact the context goes on to help me. God contrasts the worst of all creatures with the best of all creatures. There is a dichotomy between the two, an ontological value being stated which cannot be overlooked. One is better than the other.

Zhang

It was the prophet who received the Christians with open arms, and when he conquered Mekka he spared them there as well, a practice unheard of not only in the Middle East but throughout the world as well.

You have to understand why that is there. It was God's revelation to his people, but his most devout believers rejected Muhammad, just as try did Jesus and Moses of old. You can see why they would be the worst in his sight ( here meaning deaf and dumb) because they are the ones who should have recognized Allah but continued to reject his prophet just as their ancestors did repeatedly centuries before.

A punishment not foreign to the laws of the Old Testament, who prescribed nearly identical ones to those who rejected Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (among countless others).

Iconodule

He did? I swear he called us blasphemers and the worst of all creautres in the quran. But we rejected Muhammad for a very good reason. He didn't even understand Christian practice nor did he ever attempt to go to the patraichs or the bishops or the Christian people and voncert them.actually precisely the opposite he got into brief warfare with the Byzantines and lost.

Zhang

Why do I respond to you anymore? Just leave these forums now, you make Fred Phelps look benign. So full of hatred and pent up anger, best of luck to you may Allah give you hidayah!

Emilia

Or perhaps we can just prevent every thread from being hauled way off topic by reporting the first attempt as "off topic" and just not responding to it.

I don't know how the mods work here because I'm on so rarely, but whether they split off a new thread or just delete off topic posts, the effect will be to minimize the distractions.

Magi728

Yes Clearly off Topic....How do you All See The Planet Kolob ....

That the Mormons Declare in their Holy Book....?

Does Anyone See A Connection with this so called Planet....As Being Connected to the Ancient Sumerian tales of the Planet Nibiru...?

What do you See...Myth...Metaphor....or Fact...?



Magi

Emilia

I don't know a thing about the Planet Kolob (wasn't Kolob the name of a character in original Trek? Were they making a funny or just an accident?)

However, Sumerian references to Nibiru make it pretty clear they meant what we call Jupiter. The Sumerians knew of 5 of the planets we know.

Was Kolob supposed to be a standin for Jupiter in some way?

Magi728

The Planet Kolob ....


Kolob - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Magi728

Sumerian and the plant Nibiru.....







Magi.......

Magi728

Emmilia..

The Planet Kolob is found in the Book of Abraham, a work published by Joseph Smith...

The Planet Nibiru...is Found in the Enuma Elish....The Ancient Sumarian Cuniform Tablets..

ENUMA ELISH - The Epic Of Creation


Neither Are Refering to Jupiter...But I See That Both may Be Connected....In * metaphor *

With Love,



Magi.......

Magi728

Could there Be A Connection of ....The Angel Moroni ....with The Ancient Mesopotamian sky god ....Anu..?


"The learned men, that have fixed at several thousand years the life of this earth, have failed, throughout the long period of their observation, to consider either the number or the age of the other planets. Consider, moreover, the manifold divergencies that have resulted from the theories propounded by these men. Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute."
(Bahá'u'lláh--- Gleanings, p. 163)


Magi.......

sorar4

Well, in the bible, Jesus says "and you shall know the prophets by their fruits, for a bad tree cannot make good fruit, nor a good tree make bad fruit." since we weren't alive in his time we cant no for sure if his intentions were noble or not, however Mormons believe that God has incest orgies and had sex with Mary to produce Jesus, as well as believing that black people are half demons half angels. really. I hope this answers your question.

Noexalt

Baha'i Writings aside, I want to know how Mormons justify to themselves that the Native Americans are descendants of one of the twelve tribes of Israel, coming over on a boat shaped "like unto a dish".

The genetic evidence is overwhelming that Native Americans migrated from Asia via the Bering Strait ice bridge. While there have been instances of non-Asians showing up in North and South America - not enough to claim that they are all descended from Semitic people. Besides that, where are the archaeological remains of synagogues and Judean culture?

And the Joseph Smith Papyrii, hasn't this already been proven to be a forgery? Where are the Gold Tablets? The Ummim and Thummim? Gone to heaven, seriously? I hold my Faith to be accountable to science as well, probably to a fault somewhere, but if the evidence isn't there, it isn't there, sorry.

Magi728

Yes all Christians do believe Christ is God

Christians ...Yes...


Jesus..Well No...

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father:
* for My Father is Greater than I *.




Magi.......

Magi728

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My Ihrone, even as
* I also overcame *, and am set down with My Father in His Throne.


Jesus is Clearly Not God....




Magi.......

Magi728

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:


Matthew 4:1
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted




Magi.......

GenuineSeeker

Just curious, are you saying you DO believe Jesus is God or you do Not? I don't believe ALL Christians believe he is God. I consider myself Christian, yet I believe these verse at face value and many others like them. I have never believed Jesus was God. Truthfully, I believe he was voted into that position in the fourth century. There are many Christian groups who do not believe he is God. Used to study this area at one time.

Magi728

Seeker

I Believe Jesus Clearly says... He is Not God.
Therefore I Believe His Words. And His Declaration. As the Truth.


With Love,


Magi.......

Magi728

Ponder the Passage.



1 Corinthians
15-24... Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even * the Father * ; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.




Magi.......

Magi728

Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which
ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!


Baha'u'llah's .... Tablet to the Christians