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Old 06-16-2014, 11:22 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by aidan View Post
Our Faith does not permit temples,synagogues,mosques or churches. Rightly so. The true temple is a pure heart loving God and man
Aqdas paragraph 31:
O people of the world! Build ye houses of worship
throughout the lands in the name of Him Who is the
Lord of all religions. Make them as perfect as is possible
in the world of being, and adorn them with that which
befitteth them, not with images and effigies. Then,
with radiance and joy, celebrate therein the praise of
your Lord, the Most Compassionate. Verily, by His remembrance the eye is cheered and the heart is filled with light.
 
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:53 AM   #82
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Sen, Iranians don't use the word madreseh in the same sense that Arabs and Sunni Muslims do.

Madreseh in the Persian we use, and AbdulBaha uses, means secular school in general.
 
Old 06-16-2014, 11:56 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn View Post
Abdu'l-Baha certainly knew the stories about the Bab as a child attending a maktab (a literacy school). These stories were transmitted to us via the Babi community (who largely became Bahais), and Abdu'l-Baha was part of that community.

It's a simple translation problem. In SAQ Abdu'l-Baha says that the Bab did not attend any madrasa, and that this fact was generally known. He knew of course that the Bab had attended a maktab, since this was also generally known.

For an introduction to the madrasa (and the difference from a maktab) see the wikipedia article. "the term madrasah was originally used to refer more specifically to a medieval Islamic centre of learning, mainly teaching Islamic law and theology, usually affiliated with a mosque, and funded by an early charitable trust known as waqf." ... "Much of the study in the madrasah college centered on examining whether certain opinions of law were orthodox. This scholarly process of "determining orthodoxy began with a question which the Muslim layman, called in that capacity mustaftī, presented to a jurisconsult, called mufti, soliciting from him a response, called fatwa, a legal opinion (the religious law of Islam covers civil as well as religious matters). The mufti (professor of legal opinions) took this question, studied it, researched it intensively in the sacred scriptures, in order to find a solution to it. This process of scholarly research was called ijtihād, literally, the exertion of one's efforts to the utmost limit."

What Abdu'l-Baha says in SAQ is literally true, the Bab did not study at a madrasa. That is a course taking many years, and between his work as a merchant and his time in the Atabat (where he did attend some lectures), there are not enough years in his life to allow for a madrasa education as well.
Thank you. I certainly will not dispute that.

That being said, the suggesting from our friend h123 that Abdu'l-Baha is supposed to be, or believed amongst Baha'is to some how be omniscient is, IMHO, still just silly. I have never (as a Baha'i) expected Abdu'l-Baha to be omniscient. Infallible in matters to do with the Faith, sure, but infallible with regard to everything he ever said or did as a human - not something I expect, or that makes any difference to me regarding how amazing, and wonderful, and inspiring he and his writings are.

The Faith is about love, and growth, and unity, and peace, not about if Adbu'l-Baha knew all the details of the Bab's elementary education or not. But, then, if someone is looking for any reason to reject the teachings about love, and growth, and unity, and peace, I suppose any little thing will do - no matter how irrelevant.
 
Old 06-16-2014, 11:57 AM   #84
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Let us all derail the topic and speak about love and heart and at the same time accuse h123 of being a literalist with a dogmatic mindset who does not understand the Baha'i teachings.
As most that I see have not made the accusations against you that you mention, I can only feel that you, have this thought in your own mind. Maybe your mind is speaking to you?

For myself your arguments against the Baha'i faith, are nothing new. You see with your mind I prefer to see with my heart.
This may be crazy to you? I do not know, but it is the correct path for myself.

As you have said in earlier posts that no Baha'i argument or books will convince you, I see no reason in engaging in conversation, as to argue is not correct. And as you only wish to dismiss all that is explained to you, I feel you only wish to argue, this is my understanding.

So best wishes to you, I am sorry if you feel that I or others have derailed your topic, I did not wish to step on your toes so to speak, I was just responding to others posts.
 
Old 06-16-2014, 12:05 PM   #85
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A Buddhist parable:

It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison.

His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.'

He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.'

He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.'

The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him.

—Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta: The Shorter Instructions to Malunkya" (MN 63),
 
Old 06-16-2014, 12:34 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn View Post
Abdu'l-Baha certainly knew the stories about the Bab as a child attending a maktab (a literacy school). These stories were transmitted to us via the Babi community (who largely became Bahais), and Abdu'l-Baha was part of that community.

It's a simple translation problem. In SAQ Abdu'l-Baha says that the Bab did not attend any madrasa, and that this fact was generally known. He knew of course that the Bab had attended a maktab, since this was also generally known.

For an introduction to the madrasa (and the difference from a maktab) see the wikipedia article. "the term madrasah was originally used to refer more specifically to a medieval Islamic centre of learning, mainly teaching Islamic law and theology, usually affiliated with a mosque, and funded by an early charitable trust known as waqf." ... "Much of the study in the madrasah college centered on examining whether certain opinions of law were orthodox. This scholarly process of "determining orthodoxy began with a question which the Muslim layman, called in that capacity mustaftī, presented to a jurisconsult, called mufti, soliciting from him a response, called fatwa, a legal opinion (the religious law of Islam covers civil as well as religious matters). The mufti (professor of legal opinions) took this question, studied it, researched it intensively in the sacred scriptures, in order to find a solution to it. This process of scholarly research was called ijtihād, literally, the exertion of one's efforts to the utmost limit."

What Abdu'l-Baha says in SAQ is literally true, the Bab did not study at a madrasa. That is a course taking many years, and between his work as a merchant and his time in the Atabat (where he did attend some lectures), there are not enough years in his life to allow for a madrasa education as well.
What source more trustworthy than Wikipedia! I have highlighted the keyword "Medieval" in what you quoted. Now let us see some more quotes from Wikipedia to see how wrong you are.
"In the medieval Islamic world, an elementary school was known as a maktab, which dates back to at least the 10th century."

" In the Arabic language, the word مدرسة madrasah simply means the same as school does in the English language, whether that is private, public or parochial school, as well as for any primary or secondary school whether Muslim, non-Muslim, or secular.[4] Unlike the use of the word school in British English, the word madrasah more closely resembles the term school in American English, in that it can refer to a university-level or post-graduate school as well as to a primary or secondary school."

"However, in English, the term madrasah usually refers to the specifically Islamic institutions."
Enough of the Wikipedia quotes. Let us see how Maktab and Madrasa are defined in Persian. According to the authoritative Loghatname Dehkhoda: The definition of Madrasa is:
"آنجا که درس دهند و درس خوانند. آموزشگاه . مکتب . دبستان . دبیرستان . جای تدریس . جای آموختن علوم و فنون ."
"Primary school, High School, place of studying, Maktab, Where tuition and studying is performed, a place of teaching science and knowledge"!
In the Farsi language Madrasa (school) is used to refer to primary schools, high schools, and also maktabs.

If that is not enough let us see in Abdu'l-Bahas words what he uses the word Madrasa (school) to refer to. Abdu'l-Baha frequently uses the word Madrasaye Tarbiyat (Tarbiyat School) in his writings:

Abdu'l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 8, p. 112:
"حال خدمات شما دمادم در مدرسه تربيت در قلب اينعبد مذکور..."
"In this servants heart your servitude in the Tarbiyat Madrasa (school) is always remembered"

Abdu'l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 7, p. 124:
"ای معلّمه های مدرسه تربيت بنات"
"Oh you teachers of the Girls Tarbiyat School (Madrasa)


Abdu'l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 7, p. 124:
"معلّم مدرسه تربيت را دعا مينمايم"
"I pray for the teachers of the Tarbiyat school (Madrasa)"


So what was this Tarbiyat School (Madrasa), a religious college or institution where people were sent to become Ayatollah's? No! It was a Baha'i school for children. You can find an image with the children here:
File:Tarbiyat School, Tehran, ca 1911.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is nothing wrong with translation of SAQ and the quotes I provided clearly show what Abdu'l-Baha meant by school (Madrasa).

Now let us read Abdu'l-Baha's words again:
"He had NEVER studied in ANY school (Madrasah)"

I hope it is clear enough!

Last edited by h123; 06-16-2014 at 12:38 PM.
 
Old 06-16-2014, 01:43 PM   #87
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It is impossible, I feel, that AbdulBaha didn't know the life history of the Bab. He was bullied and harassed as a child for being a BABI. So AbdulBaha's statement that the Bab didn't go to school is intentional.

I am not AbdulBaha, but I would say the same thing for being bullied.

The Bab didn't go to any school, God taught Him everything He knew.

I too was bullied in 1st grade in Iran.

I am victorious over all Muslims and religionists.

Last edited by LogicalReason; 06-16-2014 at 01:46 PM.
 
Old 06-16-2014, 02:55 PM   #88
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My closest friend H123,

I hope I have shown you abundant kindness throughout our discussion.
 
Old 06-16-2014, 06:20 PM   #89
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A fine piece of flawed deductive reasoning: Put forward a sentence that can have two meanings, claim that the first meaning was intended and then use this parable to reach the conclusion without any proof that Abdu'l-Baha had also intended another meaning by his clear statements and then call me a "Mulla Loghati." As we say in Persian, labod goosh-haye man ham deraz hastand, (i.e. Do you think I'm a fool?).

Double standards (siyasate yek bam wa do hawa) is what you play well. Where ever it suits you the words are looked at literally, where ever it doesn't you switch to poetic mode.

Fortunately, there are certain adverbs in both English and Persian that make it perfectly clear what meaning was intended.
For the sake of the argument I will assume that:
"I did not eat anything since yesterday" can have one of two meanings:
a-I ate absolutely nothing since yesterday.
b-I ate very little since yesterday.

How do we know which statement was intended? If "I did not eat anything since yesterday" is used, we need further proof and more facts to be sure. But if statement 'a' or 'b' is directly used it is very clear what was intended.

likewise, If Abdu'l-Baha had uttered: "He studied in no school" he could have meant-according to your non-literal argument-that:
a-"He had NEVER studied in ANY school"
b-"He very briefly studied at some school"

Abdu'l-Baha directly uses statement 'a' with the strong adverbs NEVER and ANY to make it perfectly clear what he had meant.
The context will show the intended meaning. To me, you are only concentrating on your own 'purpose', therefore you cannot see the other side.

Let me ask you this: Did not the Bab write many verses in Arabic in the style of Quran? Did not some of the Shia learned men, believed Him by seeing those verses? Such as a person by the name Vaheed, who was sent by the King to investigate. Then He believed the Bab, by seeing the verses. So, according to your investigation, where did the Bab learn how to write verses like Quran in Arabic? How much training does it take for a man to be able to write verses like the Bab did in Arabic, and have knowledge about other religions as the Bab did? Remember, He was only 25 years old, Persian, and according to History, He was a merchant, and not a religious learned.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 04:32 AM   #90
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Harry I am so happy for you that you are studying our scripture and writings. You will receive untold blessings from the Holy Spirit as a result
 
Old 06-17-2014, 04:54 AM   #91
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That being said, the suggesting from our friend h123 that Abdu'l-Baha is supposed to be, or believed amongst Baha'is to some how be omniscient is, IMHO, still just silly. I have never (as a Baha'i) expected Abdu'l-Baha to be omniscient.
Agreed, he did not know everything, past or future. He once said that the United States would not enter World War I. That was a good guess at the time, but as the war in Europe continued, sentiment in the US changed.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 04:55 AM   #92
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What source more trustworthy than Wikipedia! I have highlighted the keyword "Medieval" in what you quoted. Now let us see some more quotes from Wikipedia to see how wrong you are.
"In the medieval Islamic world, an elementary school was known as a maktab, which dates back to at least the 10th century."

" In the Arabic language, the word مدرسة madrasah simply means the same as school does in the English language, whether that is private, public or parochial school, as well as for any primary or secondary school whether Muslim, non-Muslim, or secular.[4] Unlike the use of the word school in British English, the word madrasah more closely resembles the term school in American English, in that it can refer to a university-level or post-graduate school as well as to a primary or secondary school."

"However, in English, the term madrasah usually refers to the specifically Islamic institutions."
Enough of the Wikipedia quotes. Let us see how Maktab and Madrasa are defined in Persian. According to the authoritative Loghatname Dehkhoda: The definition of Madrasa is:
"آنجا که درس دهند و درس خوانند. آموزشگاه . مکتب . دبستان . دبیرستان . جای تدریس . جای آموختن علوم و فنون ."
"Primary school, High School, place of studying, Maktab, Where tuition and studying is performed, a place of teaching science and knowledge"!
In the Farsi language Madrasa (school) is used to refer to primary schools, high schools, and also maktabs.

If that is not enough let us see in Abdu'l-Bahas words what he uses the word Madrasa (school) to refer to. Abdu'l-Baha frequently uses the word Madrasaye Tarbiyat (Tarbiyat School) in his writings:

Abdu'l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 8, p. 112:
"حال خدمات شما دمادم در مدرسه تربيت در قلب اينعبد مذکور..."
"In this servants heart your servitude in the Tarbiyat Madrasa (school) is always remembered"

Abdu'l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 7, p. 124:
"ای معلّمه های مدرسه تربيت بنات"
"Oh you teachers of the Girls Tarbiyat School (Madrasa)


Abdu'l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 7, p. 124:
"معلّم مدرسه تربيت را دعا مينمايم"
"I pray for the teachers of the Tarbiyat school (Madrasa)"


So what was this Tarbiyat School (Madrasa), a religious college or institution where people were sent to become Ayatollah's? No! It was a Baha'i school for children. You can find an image with the children here:
File:Tarbiyat School, Tehran, ca 1911.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is nothing wrong with translation of SAQ and the quotes I provided clearly show what Abdu'l-Baha meant by school (Madrasa).

Now let us read Abdu'l-Baha's words again:
"He had NEVER studied in ANY school (Madrasah)"

I hope it is clear enough!

Your expose of an introductory remark in Some Answered Questions simply doesn’t hold any water.


ALL of the following MUST be true without a doubt for there to be any problem at all.


1. The term used for “school” in Some Answered Questions is general and not specific to a “religious school.”

This is open to interpretation, as witnessed by a number of posts above.

2. Abdu’l-Baha is supposed to be omniscient - he is not

I have offered quotes from the writings (which you have chosen to not read or to ignore outright) and my own testimony as a Baha’i of over 30 years that this is not the case.

3. Abdu’l-Baha is supposed to be infallible in all things (again omniscience) - he is not.

I have offered quotes from the writings (which you have chosen to not read or to ignore outright) and my own testimony as a Baha’i of over 30 years that this is not the case.

4. Abdu’l-Baha is not relying on information reported to him by others - he is.

"He was noted amongst the people for lack of instruction and education…”
(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 5)

"It was universally admitted by the Shi'ites that He had never studied in any school and had not acquired knowledge from any teacher; all the people of Shiraz bear witness to this."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 25)

The two statements above both suggest that Abdu’l-Baha is providing a source for his information, the people, rumor, reports, scuttlebutt - not trying to be duplicitous. If duplicity was the goal of the Baha’is - why then would future Baha’i research and histories contain more accurate information, with specific sources? Clearly Abdu’l-Baha was reporting his source as the general belief of the people of Shiraz with whom he had spoken. He is saying, "this is not my contention, but what I have been told by others."

5. Abdu’l-Baha had access to the more definitive (and later) histories that you have base your criticism upon - he did not.

He did not have access to more comprehensive histories or the research that produced them. These were published later.

----

We aren’t even talking about reasonable doubt here, we are talking about total doubt - every foundation upon which you have built your expose is either completely unfounded or very easily questioned as to its accuracy. If even one of the 5 items above is not as you suggest, then the expose exposes nothing. Please, give this one up and move on to something constructive.


...the object of life to a Baha'i is to promote the oneness of mankind. The whole object of our lives is bound up with the lives of all human beings: not a personal salvation we are seeking, but a universal one. We are not to cast eyes within ourselves and say "Now get busy saving your soul and reserving a comfortable berth in the Next World!" No, we are to get busy on bringing Heaven to the Planet…. (a letter to Baha’i Youth from Ruhiyyih Khanum, 1948).

This is the message the Bab heralded, Baha’u’llah taught, Abdu’l-Baha championed, and Shoghi Effendi protected.

You can’t see the forest of beauty and light because you are worried about the twig of “did Abdu’l-Baha know how much schooling the Bab did or did not have.”

Last edited by kernk; 06-17-2014 at 05:09 AM.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 04:59 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by h123 View Post
... let us see in Abdu'l-Bahas words what he uses the word Madrasa (school) to refer to. Abdu'l-Baha frequently uses the word Madrasaye Tarbiyat (Tarbiyat School) in his writings:

Abdu'l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 8, p. 112:
"حال خدمات شما دمادم در مدرسه تربيت در قلب اينعبد مذکور..."
"In this servants heart your servitude in the Tarbiyat Madrasa (school) is always remembered"

Abdu'l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 7, p. 124:
"ای معلّمه های مدرسه تربيت بنات"
"Oh you teachers of the Girls Tarbiyat School (Madrasa)


Abdu'l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 7, p. 124:
"معلّم مدرسه تربيت را دعا مينمايم"
"I pray for the teachers of the Tarbiyat school (Madrasa)"


...
I hope it is clear enough!
Yes, I stand corrected. Abdu'l-Baha used Madrasa to refer to schools in general - something I have not seen in the various Qajar era texts I have translated.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 11:04 AM   #94
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I agree with what InvestigateTruth wrote, arguing, essentially, that some refuse to see the forest for the trees.

The Bab refers to his own lack of education when he says he is "devoid of those sciences wherein all are learned":
For if one from whose life only twenty-four years have passed, and who is devoid of those sciences wherein all are learned, now reciteth verses after such fashion without thought or hesitation, writes a thousand verses of prayer in the course of five hours without pause of the pen, and produceth commentaries and learned treatises on such lofty themes as the true understanding of God and of the oneness of His Being, in a manner which doctors and philosophers confess surpasseth their power of understanding, then there is no doubt that all that hath been manifested is divinely inspired. Notwithstanding their life-long diligent study, what pains do these divines take when writing a single line in Arabic! Yet after such efforts the result is but words which are unworthy of mention. All these things are for a proof unto the people; otherwise the religion of God is too mighty and glorious for anyone to comprehend through aught but itself; rather by it all else is understood.
Abdu'l-Baha reports the Bab's lack of an education, according to the Babi chiefs, in A Traveler's Narrative, as Kerk mentions from another section of this work in an earlier post, and the passage confirms what the Bab asserts:
But the Bábí chiefs composed treatises against them, and set in order replies according to their own thought. Were these to be discussed in detail it would conduce to prolixity, and our object is the statement of history, not of arguments for believing or rejecting; but of some of the replies the gist is this: that they held the Proof as supreme, and the evidence as outweighing traditions, considering the former as the root and the latter as the branch, and saying, “If the branch agree not with the root it serves not as an argument and is unworthy of reliance; for the reported consequence has no right to oppose itself to the established principle, and cannot argue against it.” Indeed in such cases they regarded interpretation as the truth of revelation and the essence of true exegesis: thus, for instance, they interpreted the sovereignty of the Qá’im as a mystical sovereignty, and His conquests as conquests of the cities of hearts, adducing in support of this the meekness and defeat of the Chief of Martyrs (may the life of all being be a sacrifice for him). For he was the true manifestation of the blessed verse “And verily our host shall overcome for them,” yet, notwithstanding this, he quaffed the cup of martyrdom with perfect meekness, and, at the very moment of uttermost defeat, triumphed over his enemies and became the most mighty of the troops of the Supreme Host. Similarly they regarded the numerous writings which, in spite of His lack of education, the Báb had composed, as due to the promptings of the Holy Spirit; extracted from books contrary sayings handed down by men of mark; adduced traditions apparently agreeing with their objects; and clung to the announcements of certain notables of yore. They also considered the conversion of austere and recluse doctors and eminent votaries of the Perspicuous Religion [of Islám] as a valid proof, deemed the steadfastness and constancy of the Báb a most mighty sign, and related miracles and the like; which things, being altogether foreign to our purpose, we have passed by with brevity, and will now proceed with our original topic.
The report is simple: the Bab's knowledge is divinely inspired, not attained through study in a school.

Last edited by ahanu; 06-17-2014 at 11:06 AM.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 02:34 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
The context will show the intended meaning. To me, you are only concentrating on your own 'purpose', therefore you cannot see the other side.

Let me ask you this: (1) Did not the Bab write many verses in Arabic in the style of Quran? (2) Did not some of the Shia learned men, believed Him by seeing those verses? Such as a person by the name Vaheed, who was sent by the King to investigate. Then He believed the Bab, by seeing the verses. (3) So, according to your investigation, where did the Bab learn how to write verses like Quran in Arabic? (4) How much training does it take for a man to be able to write verses like the Bab did in Arabic, and have knowledge about other religions as the Bab did? (5) Remember, He was only 25 years old, Persian, and according to History, He was a merchant, and not a religious learned.
Unfortunately people here keep forgetting that the Bab had acquired religious education. Other than the historical evidence I already provided, here is another document that shows the extent that the Bab had been tutored on religious matters:
(1) In his youth without the consent of the Khals (his uncles) he went to Karbala and heard abundantly (besiyar) the subjects of mysticism, interpreting and paraphrasing the hadith (Shia narrations) and verses (of the Quran) in accordance with the Ithna Ashariyya belief (meaning the Shia system), and the mystics of Shaikh Ahsa’i in the presence of Sayyid Kazem Rashti. He entered (studied) the Imamiyya (meaning Shia) Jurisprudence (fiqh) using their methods. (2) What can be deduced from his writings is that he adhered more than the other topics to the subjects and requirements of Shaykh Ahmad and Sayyid Kazim and he was closer to them. It is because of this that the Mullas of those times regarded him as illiterate meaning that he was poorly educated.
Fāḍil Māzandarānī, Asrār al-āthār khuṣūṣī, vol. 1, pp. 192-193


The first section shows that he was tutored abundantly on the Quran, hadith and Shia narrations, their interpretation and paraphrasing them, Shia Jurisprudence, mysticism, and Shaykhi beliefs.

The second section shows why he was regarded as illiterate or poorly educated: the Mulla’s said he was poorly educated because he believed in the Shaykhi beliefs and was inclined towards them, not because he had not been lectured on religious matters. This is the Baha’i version. The non-Baha’i version states that he was helpless in answering simple questions (I won’t discuss these here because it will automatically be rejected by Baha’is as a lie).

Abdu’l-Baha says none of these. He claims that “It was universally admitted by the Shī’is that”

a- “He had NEVER studied in ANY school” which as I showed is not the case in both the literal and the non-literal meaning.

b- “had not acquired knowledge from any teacher.” As I showed, according to Baha’i sources the Shias believed he had acquired knowledge from Shaykhi teachers. Thus Abdul’-Baha’s statement is false. Furthermore the Bab frequently referred to Sayyid Kazim as his teacher.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 02:35 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn View Post
Agreed, he did not know everything, past or future. He once said that the United States would not enter World War I. That was a good guess at the time, but as the war in Europe continued, sentiment in the US changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kernk View Post
Your expose of an introductory remark in Some Answered Questions simply doesn’t hold any water.


ALL of the following MUST be true without a doubt for there to be any problem at all.


1. The term used for “school” in Some Answered Questions is general and not specific to a “religious school.”

This is open to interpretation, as witnessed by a number of posts above.

2. Abdu’l-Baha is supposed to be omniscient - he is not

I have offered quotes from the writings (which you have chosen to not read or to ignore outright) and my own testimony as a Baha’i of over 30 years that this is not the case.

3. Abdu’l-Baha is supposed to be infallible in all things (again omniscience) - he is not.

I have offered quotes from the writings (which you have chosen to not read or to ignore outright) and my own testimony as a Baha’i of over 30 years that this is not the case.

4. Abdu’l-Baha is not relying on information reported to him by others - he is.

"He was noted amongst the people for lack of instruction and education…”
(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 5)

"It was universally admitted by the Shi'ites that He had never studied in any school and had not acquired knowledge from any teacher; all the people of Shiraz bear witness to this."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 25)

The two statements above both suggest that Abdu’l-Baha is providing a source for his information, the people, rumor, reports, scuttlebutt - not trying to be duplicitous. If duplicity was the goal of the Baha’is - why then would future Baha’i research and histories contain more accurate information, with specific sources? Clearly Abdu’l-Baha was reporting his source as the general belief of the people of Shiraz with whom he had spoken. He is saying, "this is not my contention, but what I have been told by others."

5. Abdu’l-Baha had access to the more definitive (and later) histories that you have base your criticism upon - he did not.

He did not have access to more comprehensive histories or the research that produced them. These were published later.

----

We aren’t even talking about reasonable doubt here, we are talking about total doubt - every foundation upon which you have built your expose is either completely unfounded or very easily questioned as to its accuracy. If even one of the 5 items above is not as you suggest, then the expose exposes nothing. Please, give this one up and move on to something constructive.
The answer to your doubts:

1-See my previous post.

2 and 3- Your understanding after 30 years is only your understanding. I went back and read your quotes. You have mentioned no quote whatsoever that says Abdu’l-Baha is fallible or what he utters is incorrect. I posted the official UHJ letter on this matter which shows contrary to your claims that:
“whatever He ('Abdu'l-Bahá) saith is the very truth,”
“"...whatsoever His (Abdu'l-Bahá's) pen records, that is correct....”
“in the person of 'Abdu'l-Bahá the incompatible characteristics of a human nature and superhuman knowledge and perfection have been blended and are completely harmonized."

4- Abdu’l-Baha certainly knew that the Bab had attended both kinds of school and the Shia belief about this. The education of the Bab and the Shia belief (as I showed in the previous post) has been recorded in multiple Baha’i and non-Baha’i documents. Read what Sen said: “Abdu'l-Baha certainly knew the stories about the Bab as a child attending a maktab (a literacy school). These stories were transmitted to us via the Babi community (who largely became Bahais), and Abdu'l-Baha was part of that community.” (post #80)

5- Prove it! Your word against mine: Yes he did!

It’s funny that when Baha’ism is preached Abdu’l-Baha is portrayed as someone who is just short of being a Prophet but when his words are discussed his station is suddenly reduced to an ordinary fallible person who was ignorant on many matters.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 04:07 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by h123 View Post
Unfortunately people here keep forgetting that the Bab had acquired religious education. Other than the historical evidence I already provided, here is another document that shows the extent that the Bab had been tutored on religious matters:
(1) In his youth without the consent of the Khals (his uncles) he went to Karbala and heard abundantly (besiyar) the subjects of mysticism, interpreting and paraphrasing the hadith (Shia narrations) and verses (of the Quran) in accordance with the Ithna Ashariyya belief (meaning the Shia system), and the mystics of Shaikh Ahsa’i in the presence of Sayyid Kazem Rashti. He entered (studied) the Imamiyya (meaning Shia) Jurisprudence (fiqh) using their methods. (2) What can be deduced from his writings is that he adhered more than the other topics to the subjects and requirements of Shaykh Ahmad and Sayyid Kazim and he was closer to them. It is because of this that the Mullas of those times regarded him as illiterate meaning that he was poorly educated.
Fāḍil Māzandarānī, Asrār al-āthār khuṣūṣī, vol. 1, pp. 192-193
The first section shows that he was tutored abundantly on the Quran, hadith and Shia narrations, their interpretation and paraphrasing them, Shia Jurisprudence, mysticism, and Shaykhi beliefs.

The second section shows why he was regarded as illiterate or poorly educated: the Mulla’s said he was poorly educated because he believed in the Shaykhi beliefs and was inclined towards them, not because he had not been lectured on religious matters. This is the Baha’i version. The non-Baha’i version states that he was helpless in answering simple questions (I won’t discuss these here because it will automatically be rejected by Baha’is as a lie).
Your source--Fāḍil Māzandarānī--must be really bad, because after a quick search online, I find you're the only person using him. If it's such a valuable source for Babi history, then other scholars should be using his work too, or somebody should at least be able to find out who this writer is. Of course, I'm assuming this is the writer's real name.

Quote:
The first section shows that he was tutored abundantly on the Quran, hadith and Shia narrations, their interpretation and paraphrasing them, Shia Jurisprudence, mysticism, and Shaykhi beliefs.
Well, it does show us something: only your own bias reflected through bad and shady sources.

Last edited by ahanu; 06-17-2014 at 04:13 PM.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 04:14 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by h123 View Post
“whatever He ('Abdu'l-Bahá) saith is the very truth,”
“"...whatsoever His (Abdu'l-Bahá's) pen records, that is correct....”
“in the person of 'Abdu'l-Bahá the incompatible characteristics of a human nature and superhuman knowledge and perfection have been blended and are completely harmonized."



It’s funny that when Baha’ism is preached Abdu’l-Baha is portrayed as someone who is just short of being a Prophet but when his words are discussed his station is suddenly reduced to an ordinary fallible person who was ignorant on many matters.
You are taking the quotes about Abdu'l-Baha out of context . . .

"He quotes the passages mentioned above and interprets them to mean that "whatever He ('Abdu'l-Bahá) saith is the very truth". 'Abdu'l-Bahá further says, referring to those who do not accept Him as the Interpreter of the Word of God, "Whoso deviates from my interpretation is a victim of his own fancy" ("The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh" page 138). Moreover, in the "Star of the West" Volume XII, page 227, 'Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the verses from the "Tablet of the Branch" to mean "...whatsoever His (Abdu'l-Bahá's) pen records, that is correct....""

you will notice that in the longer quotes that you supplied above, they are about Abdu'l-Baha's station as interpreter of the Writings of Baha'u'llah. In this roll the Baha'is were instructed by Baha'u'llah that Abdu'l-Baha was infallible.

That there were those who believed him to be a prophet, or the return of Christ, or just short of being a prophet is quite true, but Abdu'l-Baha took great pains to dissuade them of that belief. That there are those who may still believe such things is between them and God - but again, Abdu'l-Baha himself took great pains to point out that he did not have any such rank.

Don't get me wrong, Abdu'l-Baha is our example of how a Baha'i should live, how we should dedicate our lives to humanity, how we should serve the Faith and mankind. He was amazing - perhaps the perfect human being - but a human being, and as such NOT omniscient, not infallible in all things.

Abdu'l-Baha, himself, points out that the source of his understanding of the amount of schooling that the Bab received was the people - he gives his source, and his source may well have been mistaken.

Abdu'l-Baha says that, according to the people of persia, the Bab had a limited amount of education and that THEY believed this to be proof of the divine source of His revelation.

However, if you bother to read the rest of the few paragraphs in Some Answered Questions about the Bab, you find that this is NOT the point Abdu’l-Baha is trying to make, or the proof of the Bab’s mission, it is :

"All alone, in a way which is beyond imagination, He upheld the Cause among the Persians...This illustrious Soul arose with such power that He shook the supports of the religion, of the morals, the conditions, the habits and the customs of Persia, and instituted new rules, new laws and a new religion. Though the great personages of the State, nearly all the clergy, and the public men arose to destroy and annihilate Him, He alone withstood them and moved the whole of Persia.

"The government, the nation, the doctors of divinity and the great personages desired to extinguish His light, but they could not do so….His foundations became firmly established, and His dawning-place became brilliant. He imparted divine education to an unenlightened multitude and produced marvelous results on the thoughts, morals, customs and conditions of the Persians. He announced the glad tidings of the manifestation of the Sun of Baha to His followers and prepared them to believe.

"The appearance of such wonderful signs and great results; the effects produced upon the minds of the people, and upon the prevailing ideas; the establishment of the foundations of progress; and the organization of the principles of success and prosperity by a young merchant, constitute the greatest proof that He was a perfect Educator. A just person will never hesitate to believe this."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 25)


At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much education the Bab had. And whether your one source or my three or four sources are correct as to the amount of religious education He did or did not have.

He, the Bab, changed the world, and continues to do so. No person with twice, or twenty times the education that He did or did not have - excepting Baha’u’llah Himself - has achieved, in recent times, what He achieved, has revealed the equal of what He revealed, has prepared the world for the Manifestation of God, and fulfilled the dozens of prophecies that He fulfilled.

True, we are supposed to be friendly to those of other faiths, but not to those who misrepresent, attack our Faith, and twist words and meanings until the crooked seems straight.

There is so much more to this amazing story than the twisting of words and the bickering over who knew what and when that you continue to focus on. It is petty and useless. Read the Writings of the Bab, of Baha’u’llah - if what they portray is not a message from God, then I don’t know anything worthy of such a claim.

And if you can’t see that, then, at least don’t come here and tell us Baha’is what we believe, and what our religion means and what it teaches, and misrepresent it to others.

Last edited by kernk; 06-17-2014 at 04:17 PM.
 
Old 06-17-2014, 04:30 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by ahanu View Post
Your source--Fāḍil Māzandarānī--must be really bad, because after a quick search online, I find you're the only person using him. If it's such a valuable source for Babi history, then other scholars should be using his work too, or somebody should at least be able to find out who this writer is. Of course, I'm assuming this is the writer's real name.



Well, it does show us something: only your own bias reflected through bad sources.
It's not my fault if you don't know the name of one of the most prominent Baha'i authors ever. He is better known as "fazil mazandarani" or "Fadil Mazandarani".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%AD...r%C3%A1n%C3%AD
 
Old 06-17-2014, 04:52 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by kernk View Post
You are taking the quotes about Abdu'l-Baha out of context . . .

"He quotes the passages mentioned above and interprets them to mean that "whatever He ('Abdu'l-Bahá) saith is the very truth". 'Abdu'l-Bahá further says, referring to those who do not accept Him as the Interpreter of the Word of God, "Whoso deviates from my interpretation is a victim of his own fancy" ("The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh" page 138). Moreover, in the "Star of the West" Volume XII, page 227, 'Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the verses from the "Tablet of the Branch" to mean "...whatsoever His (Abdu'l-Bahá's) pen records, that is correct....""

you will notice that in the longer quotes that you supplied above, they are about Abdu'l-Baha's station as interpreter of the Writings of Baha'u'llah. In this roll the Baha'is were instructed by Baha'u'llah that Abdu'l-Baha was infallible.

That there were those who believed him to be a prophet, or the return of Christ, or just short of being a prophet is quite true, but Abdu'l-Baha took great pains to dissuade them of that belief. That there are those who may still believe such things is between them and God - but again, Abdu'l-Baha himself took great pains to point out that he did not have any such rank.

Don't get me wrong, Abdu'l-Baha is our example of how a Baha'i should live, how we should dedicate our lives to humanity, how we should serve the Faith and mankind. He was amazing - perhaps the perfect human being - but a human being, and as such NOT omniscient, not infallible in all things.

Abdu'l-Baha, himself, points out that the source of his understanding of the amount of schooling that the Bab received was the people - he gives his source, and his source may well have been mistaken.

Abdu'l-Baha says that, according to the people of persia, the Bab had a limited amount of education and that THEY believed this to be proof of the divine source of His revelation.

However, if you bother to read the rest of the few paragraphs in Some Answered Questions about the Bab, you find that this is NOT the point Abdu’l-Baha is trying to make, or the proof of the Bab’s mission, it is :

"All alone, in a way which is beyond imagination, He upheld the Cause among the Persians...This illustrious Soul arose with such power that He shook the supports of the religion, of the morals, the conditions, the habits and the customs of Persia, and instituted new rules, new laws and a new religion. Though the great personages of the State, nearly all the clergy, and the public men arose to destroy and annihilate Him, He alone withstood them and moved the whole of Persia.

"The government, the nation, the doctors of divinity and the great personages desired to extinguish His light, but they could not do so….His foundations became firmly established, and His dawning-place became brilliant. He imparted divine education to an unenlightened multitude and produced marvelous results on the thoughts, morals, customs and conditions of the Persians. He announced the glad tidings of the manifestation of the Sun of Baha to His followers and prepared them to believe.

"The appearance of such wonderful signs and great results; the effects produced upon the minds of the people, and upon the prevailing ideas; the establishment of the foundations of progress; and the organization of the principles of success and prosperity by a young merchant, constitute the greatest proof that He was a perfect Educator. A just person will never hesitate to believe this."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 25)


At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much education the Bab had. And whether your one source or my three or four sources are correct as to the amount of religious education He did or did not have.

He, the Bab, changed the world, and continues to do so. No person with twice, or twenty times the education that He did or did not have - excepting Baha’u’llah Himself - has achieved, in recent times, what He achieved, has revealed the equal of what He revealed, has prepared the world for the Manifestation of God, and fulfilled the dozens of prophecies that He fulfilled.

True, we are supposed to be friendly to those of other faiths, but not to those who misrepresent, attack our Faith, and twist words and meanings until the crooked seems straight.

There is so much more to this amazing story than the twisting of words and the bickering over who knew what and when that you continue to focus on. It is petty and useless. Read the Writings of the Bab, of Baha’u’llah - if what they portray is not a message from God, then I don’t know anything worthy of such a claim.

And if you can’t see that, then, at least don’t come here and tell us Baha’is what we believe, and what our religion means and what it teaches, and misrepresent it to others.
I took nothing out of context. Those sections were provided just like that by the UHJ. In the longer quote he mentions interpretation but in the others he doesn't. He says "Whatsoever His (Abdu'l-Bahá's) pen records, that is correct....". Here is the source:
Infallibility and Knowledge of Abdu'l-Baha
The article is titled : "Infallibility and Knowledge of Abdu'l-Baha"

The person was asking about his knowledge and infallibility and the UHJ responded by providing these quotes. Accept it or reject it. Its up to you. The fact remains that there are no quotes whatsoever that Imply Abdu'l-Baha makes errors or says wrong things. If there is show me.

As for the rest of your statements, you have repeated them many times and enough has been said about them. Claiming that the Bab had many wonderful and numerous revelations and fulfilled many prophecies does not prove anything. I'll start a new thread in the future to address these exact claims. Maybe you'll be better off by reading his revelations. I suggest you start with the first one, the Qayyum al-Asma!

Last edited by h123; 06-17-2014 at 05:04 PM.
 
Old 06-18-2014, 03:11 AM   #101
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Posts: 471
H123

So, you ignore the highlighted parts where it is clear that they point out that they refer to infallibility in interpretation of the writings… apparently you can be selective is what parts of the Baha’i history and writings that apply, just as you can be selective as to what Abdu’l-Baha was referring to when he points out that it was the belief of the people of Shiraz and the Persians, and the prevalent understanding of history that the Bab had no education (or little education) and then goes on to point out that that had little to do with the Bab’s real importance.

“OH!! OH!! LOOK! Abdu’l-Baha "lied" because he quoted the prevailing understand of history amongst the people of his time and wasn’t omniscient (though he isn’t supposed to be) enough to not do so.” Really?


Just what is it about the Baha’i Faith that you deplore so much that you must find obscure places you can twist our beliefs, and attack our founders in order to try to discredit our faith. Just what is it you want to discredit?

The Baha’i Faith teaches:

There is One God - are you against this teaching?

Thou art the God of power, of glory and bounty. No God is there beside Thee, the Supreme Ruler, the All-Glorious, the Omniscient.

(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 6)

Humankind should love each other as family and be kind and thoughtful - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

We should act with justice and be fair - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

That God loves all humanity - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Humanity is one and should embrace its unity - are you against this?

The Divine Messengers have been sent down, and their Books were revealed, for the purpose of promoting the knowledge of God, and of furthering unity and fellowship amongst men.

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 12)


The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)

---

Perhaps it is the equality of men and women, the elimination of prejudice, the oneness of religion, or economic justice that you disagree with - Just what is it about a faith that brings people together in the worship of God and with the goal of improving the world for all mankind that you object to?
 
Old 06-18-2014, 03:14 AM   #102
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Most Baha'is in Iran [edit: who became martyrs] believe in the total infallibility of Abdulbaha, not just on matters of "interpretation". "Interpretation" is a false concept anyway.

By total infallibility I do not mean Essential Infallibility, but only as a mirror who reflects the Essence of a Sun.

Last edited by LogicalReason; 06-18-2014 at 03:25 AM.
 
Old 06-18-2014, 03:16 AM   #103
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Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi stuck to the historical narrative of Dawn-Breakers. Other variant histories are different from the narrative of the Dawn-Breakers. That's why H123 encounters these differences.

Abdu'l-Baha is still infallible in all matters, not just interpretation.
 
Old 06-18-2014, 03:25 AM   #104
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Take up the path of martyrdom, O ye false ones.
 
Old 06-18-2014, 04:21 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahanu View Post
Your source--Fāḍil Māzandarānī--must be really bad, because after a quick search online, I find you're the only person using him.
Then you clearly didn't do much of a search!

He's EXTREMELY well-known to Baha'is, but is commonly known by us as Mirza Abu'l-Fadl.

He's not only a famous Baha'i scholar, but travelled extensively and was a lecturer for an entire season at Green Acre Baha'i School at Maine in the USA!

You might try looking him up in Wikipedia using the name I just provided you above: You'll find a multi-page biography of him there as well as a list of ten books he published about the Faith.

Indeed, I myself own several books by him!


Bruce

Last edited by BruceDLimber; 06-19-2014 at 04:33 AM.
 
Old 06-18-2014, 04:26 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by LogicalReason View Post
Take up the path of martyrdom, O ye false ones.
Which given the put-down you included is obviously just a thinly-veiled way of issuing the curse "Die!" :-( :-( :-(
 
Old 06-18-2014, 04:35 AM   #107
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Not at all. The highest of all paths is the path of martyrdom. I was simply stating that everyone including me, is false until we tread the path of martyrdom.

And Fadil Mazandarani and Mirza Abul Fadl are two different people.

Fadil Mazandarani wrote histories that contradicted the Dawn breakers.
 
Old 06-18-2014, 04:44 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by kernk View Post
H123

So, you ignore the highlighted parts where it is clear that they point out that they refer to infallibility in interpretation of the writings… apparently you can be selective is what parts of the Baha’i history and writings that apply, just as you can be selective as to what Abdu’l-Baha was referring to when he points out that it was the belief of the people of Shiraz and the Persians, and the prevalent understanding of history that the Bab had no education (or little education) and then goes on to point out that that had little to do with the Bab’s real importance.

“OH!! OH!! LOOK! Abdu’l-Baha "lied" because he quoted the prevailing understand of history amongst the people of his time and wasn’t omniscient (though he isn’t supposed to be) enough to not do so.” Really?


Just what is it about the Baha’i Faith that you deplore so much that you must find obscure places you can twist our beliefs, and attack our founders in order to try to discredit our faith. Just what is it you want to discredit?

The Baha’i Faith teaches:

There is One God - are you against this teaching?

Thou art the God of power, of glory and bounty. No God is there beside Thee, the Supreme Ruler, the All-Glorious, the Omniscient.

(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 6)

Humankind should love each other as family and be kind and thoughtful - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

We should act with justice and be fair - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

That God loves all humanity - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Humanity is one and should embrace its unity - are you against this?

The Divine Messengers have been sent down, and their Books were revealed, for the purpose of promoting the knowledge of God, and of furthering unity and fellowship amongst men.

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 12)


The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)

---

Perhaps it is the equality of men and women, the elimination of prejudice, the oneness of religion, or economic justice that you disagree with - Just what is it about a faith that brings people together in the worship of God and with the goal of improving the world for all mankind that you object to?
Some guy asks the UHJ about the infallibility of Abdu'l-Baha and his knowledge. The UHJ provides him with quotes that show three points:
1-Abdu'l-Baha is infallible in interpretation.
2-Abdu'l-Baha makes no errors whatsoever in anything that he writes.
3-Unlike Shoghi, Baha'u'llah had superhuman knowledge and perfection and what is said about Shoghi that he does not have infallibility regarding history and etc is not applicable to Abdu'l-Baha. This answer was given to this clear question: "What is the authority of the writings and authenticated utterances of Abdu'l-Bahá concerning subjects not directly related to the Bahá'í Faith, or to religion in General?")

And you come about claiming that since point 1 has been mentioned then he is only infallible regarding interpretation. It is you who is clearly ignoring points number 2 and 3 and distorting Baha'i scripture.

There is not a single quote in Baha'i scripture that mentions Abdu'l-Baha is fallible or is ignorant. Nothing whatsoever. All quotes show the contrary.

It was the belief of no one, not the Shias, not the Babis, not Baha'i historians that the Bab had "NEVER attended ANY school". For Abdu'l-Baha to make such a false claim it would require an enormous amount of ignorance on his side that would be incompatible with the "Mystery of God" the "Unerring Pen"!

And no his intention was not to show the prevailing history amongst the people:
"It was universally admitted by the Shí’is that He had never studied in any school and had not acquired knowledge from any teacher; all the people of Shíráz bear witness to this. Nevertheless, He suddenly appeared before the people, endowed with the most complete erudition. Although He was but a merchant, He confounded all the ‘ulamá of Persia."
His intent was to claim the Bab, a merchant, miraculously turned from complete illiteracy and ignorance to a prophet overnight. Which is simply not the case and as I showed with clear quotes the Bab was literate and had been informed abundantly on religious matters.

Regarding the teachings you mentioned I suggest you read the book in my signature.
 
Old 06-18-2014, 04:58 AM   #109
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Precisely H123. This is exactly the narrative conveyed by the Dawn-Breakers.

Children first need milk before they can come to eat Steak.
 
Old 06-18-2014, 07:30 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceDLimber View Post


Then you clearly didn't do much of a search!

He's EXTREMELY well-known to Baha'is, but is commonly known by us as Mirza Abu'l-Fadl.
Hi Bruce,

I know Mirza Abu'l-Fadl, but the source mentioned by h123 is another author named Fadil-i-Mazandarani, and most of his works aren't available in English.
 
Old 06-18-2014, 09:25 AM   #111
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While searching for this new author, I was drawn to an article by Juan Cole called "Autobiography and Silence: The Early Career of Shaykhu'r-Ra'is Qajar" online.

And, while reading the article, I noted the educational history of an Iranian prince who was a Baha'i:
  • At the age of six he was sent to Qur'an school, to study with Mulla `Abdu'l-`Ali, who taught all the princes. Shaykhu'r-Ra'is finished the Qur'an in a relatively short period of time, then proceeded to calligraphy and Persian books, making what he says was almost miraculous progress, so that he quickly surpassed the other students and his own older brothers. He found even difficult grammatical problems easy.
  • Khurshid Begum . . . contacted Muhammad Khan Qajar, the Iranian army chief of staff, who obligingly arranged for the young man's acceptance into the military academy in the capital. For nearly two years, Shaykhu'r-Ra'is studied engineering, accounting, and military drills. Every day he spent time marching in formation in the main square with a heavy rifle on his shoulder. He could not, however, muster any of the youthful martial enthusiasm felt by his fellow cadets, and instead found himself bored to tears
  • Qavamu'l-Mulk then arranged for Shaykhu'r-Ra'is to be taught literature and Islamic disciplines by Mulla Muhammad Taqi Mazinani. With Mirza Nasru'llah Shirazi Mudarris he studied mathematics and the elements of theology (kalam). Qavam also took an interest in the young man's poetry, encouraging him in his literary pursuits; Shaykhu'r-Ra'is took the pen-name Hayrat (Bewildered), and began writing in the various Persian verse forms.
  • Having immersed himself in philosophy and literature, as well as Islamic law and other seminary disciplines, Shaykhu'r-Ra'is had by the end of the 1870s (when he was in his early 30s) probably exhausted the educational potential of Mashhad, having mastered the most difficult and abstruse disciplines at the hands of the city's acknowledged authorities.
- See more at: Iran Chamber Society: History of Iran: The Early Career of Shaykhu'r-Ra'is Qajar[17]
This isn't even the complete list of his educational accomplishments. For instance, he also studied with many eminent divines for years at a time, so it's always remarkable to discover how the Bab's religion, coming from someone with so little education in comparison, can influence such intellectual elites. Of course, as a prince, I'm sure his educational qualifications are longer than your average learned Iranian during the mid to late 19th century.

What I'm wondering is: to what extent does his educational accomplishments differ in comparison to the rest of the learned personages in Iran's various social classes during this era?
 
Old 06-18-2014, 04:36 PM   #112
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Infallibility: An Essay

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 171-175

`Abdu'l-Baha denies Infallibility

" In considering the whole field of divinely conferred "infallibility" one must be careful to avoid the literal understanding and petty-mindedness that has so often characterised discussions of this matter..." (UHJ - Infallibility and Knowledge of Abdu'l-Baha)


I think there is room for various understandings of infallibility and how it applies to different historical figures within the Baha'i Faith and other Faiths.
 
Old 06-18-2014, 04:37 PM   #113
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h123,

You totally ignored my question:

Just what is it about the Baha’i Faith that you deplore so much that you must find obscure places you can twist our beliefs, and attack our founders in order to try to discredit our faith. Just what is it you want to discredit?

The Baha’i Faith teaches:

There is One God - are you against this teaching?

Thou art the God of power, of glory and bounty. No God is there beside Thee, the Supreme Ruler, the All-Glorious, the Omniscient.

(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 6)

Humankind should love each other as family and be kind and thoughtful - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

We should act with justice and be fair - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

That God loves all humanity - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Humanity is one and should embrace its unity - are you against this?

The Divine Messengers have been sent down, and their Books were revealed, for the purpose of promoting the knowledge of God, and of furthering unity and fellowship amongst men.

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 12)


The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)

---

Perhaps it is the equality of men and women, the elimination of prejudice, the oneness of religion, or economic justice that you disagree with - Just what is it about a faith that brings people together in the worship of God and with the goal of improving the world for all mankind that you object to?
 
Old 06-18-2014, 06:45 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h123 View Post
Unfortunately people here keep forgetting that the Bab had acquired religious education. Other than the historical evidence I already provided, here is another document that shows the extent that the Bab had been tutored on religious matters:
(1) In his youth without the consent of the Khals (his uncles) he went to Karbala and heard abundantly (besiyar) the subjects of mysticism, interpreting and paraphrasing the hadith (Shia narrations) and verses (of the Quran) in accordance with the Ithna Ashariyya belief (meaning the Shia system), and the mystics of Shaikh Ahsa’i in the presence of Sayyid Kazem Rashti. He entered (studied) the Imamiyya (meaning Shia) Jurisprudence (fiqh) using their methods. (2) What can be deduced from his writings is that he adhered more than the other topics to the subjects and requirements of Shaykh Ahmad and Sayyid Kazim and he was closer to them. It is because of this that the Mullas of those times regarded him as illiterate meaning that he was poorly educated.
Fāḍil Māzandarānī, Asrār al-āthār khuṣūṣī, vol. 1, pp. 192-193


The first section shows that he was tutored abundantly on the Quran, hadith and Shia narrations, their interpretation and paraphrasing them, Shia Jurisprudence, mysticism, and Shaykhi beliefs.

The second section shows why he was regarded as illiterate or poorly educated: the Mulla’s said he was poorly educated because he believed in the Shaykhi beliefs and was inclined towards them, not because he had not been lectured on religious matters. This is the Baha’i version. The non-Baha’i version states that he was helpless in answering simple questions (I won’t discuss these here because it will automatically be rejected by Baha’is as a lie).

Abdu’l-Baha says none of these. He claims that “It was universally admitted by the Shī’is that”

a- “He had NEVER studied in ANY school” which as I showed is not the case in both the literal and the non-literal meaning.

b- “had not acquired knowledge from any teacher.” As I showed, according to Baha’i sources the Shias believed he had acquired knowledge from Shaykhi teachers. Thus Abdul’-Baha’s statement is false. Furthermore the Bab frequently referred to Sayyid Kazim as his teacher.

Here accuracy is important.
For example, "he went to Karbala and heard abundantly", you have interpreted as He had 'tutors'. How did you conclude 'hearing' means having 'tutors'? I can hear many things here and there from people, that doesn't mean I had tutors.
Secondly, 'abundantly', means exactly 'how much and for how long'? I can hear abundantly during one day, or during 10 years. How long the Bab went to Karbala, and for how long He was hearing? Provide the sources if you have. Then show, where He was learning to write Arabic Quranic verses. Is it possible to learn to come up with Surrahs like Quran? Again, accuracy is important, not just stipulation.
 
Old 06-19-2014, 04:34 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahanu View Post
I know Mirza Abu'l-Fadl, but the source mentioned by h123 is another author named Fadil-i-Mazandarani, and most of his works aren't available in English.
Ah, OK.

Thanks for the clarification! :-)


Bruce
 
Old 06-19-2014, 05:02 AM   #116
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Joined: Aug 2013
From: Michigan
Posts: 471
h123,

You totally ignored my question - again:

Just what is it about the Baha’i Faith that you deplore so much that you must find obscure places you can twist our beliefs, and attack our founders in order to try to discredit our faith. Just what is it you want to discredit?

The Baha’i Faith teaches:

There is One God - are you against this teaching?

Thou art the God of power, of glory and bounty. No God is there beside Thee, the Supreme Ruler, the All-Glorious, the Omniscient.

(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 6)

Humankind should love each other as family and be kind and thoughtful - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

We should act with justice and be fair - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

That God loves all humanity - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Humanity is one and should embrace its unity - are you against this?

The Divine Messengers have been sent down, and their Books were revealed, for the purpose of promoting the knowledge of God, and of furthering unity and fellowship amongst men.

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 12)


The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)

---

Perhaps it is the equality of men and women, the elimination of prejudice, the oneness of religion, or economic justice that you disagree with - Just what is it about a faith that brings people together in the worship of God and with the goal of improving the world for all mankind that you object to?
 
Old 06-19-2014, 05:17 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Here accuracy is important.
For example, "he went to Karbala and heard abundantly", you have interpreted as He had 'tutors'. How did you conclude 'hearing' means having 'tutors'? I can hear many things here and there from people, that doesn't mean I had tutors.
Secondly, 'abundantly', means exactly 'how much and for how long'? I can hear abundantly during one day, or during 10 years. How long the Bab went to Karbala, and for how long He was hearing? Provide the sources if you have. Then show, where He was learning to write Arabic Quranic verses. Is it possible to learn to come up with Surrahs like Quran? Again, accuracy is important, not just stipulation.
And they say I am a literalist!

1- a- One of the usages of "heard (shenid)" in Farsi is to refer to "being lectured" by someone on something. You can find a sample sentence from the authoritative Loghatname Dehkhoda here:
هارون | لغت نامه دهخدا
"در مصر به قونوی مشهور شد و در آنجا از دبوسی درس شنید و سُبکی را نیز ملاقات کرد."
Apparently it seems, I'm here to lecture people on the Farsi language.

b- The Bab refers to Sayyid Kazim Rashti in at least two places in his own writings as "my teacher". The scans of these two references are in my first post. You don't go around calling a potato your teacher, you refer to your teacher as your teacher! If you can't comprehend this I have no argument with you.

2-"Abundantly" is the opposite of scarcely/little/small amount. The word is clear enough and its exact amount is unimportant, for Abdu'l-Baha was trying to portray the Bab as an illiterate merchant who had miraculously been endowed with knowledge overnight. This simply is not the case.

Soon, there will be a topic about the Bab's revelations that Baha'is claim are similar to the Quran. We will speak about that topic in a new thread in detail.
 
Old 06-19-2014, 05:40 AM   #118
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Joined: Aug 2013
From: Michigan
Posts: 471
We have gone over and over why it doesn't matter above. What matters is the teachings of the Bab (and Baha'u'llah) - not how much education they may have had or not. The beauty and light in their teachings is beyond any education - if you bother to read it!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kernk View Post
h123,

You totally ignored my question - again:

Just what is it about the Baha’i Faith that you deplore so much that you must find obscure places you can twist our beliefs, and attack our founders in order to try to discredit our faith. Just what is it you want to discredit?

The Baha’i Faith teaches:

There is One God - are you against this teaching?

Thou art the God of power, of glory and bounty. No God is there beside Thee, the Supreme Ruler, the All-Glorious, the Omniscient.

(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 6)

Humankind should love each other as family and be kind and thoughtful - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

We should act with justice and be fair - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

That God loves all humanity - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Humanity is one and should embrace its unity - are you against this?

The Divine Messengers have been sent down, and their Books were revealed, for the purpose of promoting the knowledge of God, and of furthering unity and fellowship amongst men.

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 12)


The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)

---

Perhaps it is the equality of men and women, the elimination of prejudice, the oneness of religion, or economic justice that you disagree with - Just what is it about a faith that brings people together in the worship of God and with the goal of improving the world for all mankind that you object to?
 
Old 06-19-2014, 05:44 AM   #119
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Well said. The Bab could have completed all studies to be a Mullah and Bahaullah could have studied with Albert Einstein and it still doesn't matter or change what they say.
 
Old 06-19-2014, 05:50 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kernk View Post
Infallibility: An Essay

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 171-175

`Abdu'l-Baha denies Infallibility

" In considering the whole field of divinely conferred "infallibility" one must be careful to avoid the literal understanding and petty-mindedness that has so often characterised discussions of this matter..." (UHJ - Infallibility and Knowledge of Abdu'l-Baha)


I think there is room for various understandings of infallibility and how it applies to different historical figures within the Baha'i Faith and other Faiths.
Again I found no evidence in your links whatsoever that Abdu'l-Baha makes mistakes. Even in the one titles "Abdu'l-Baha denies infallibility". This is what he says:

"Many times He said, `I do not make a claim of infallibility
(ma`sumiyyat). I am the first of sinners (avval-i gunahkar). But the
Blessed Beauty favored me with a gift (mawhibati). Whatever I say, it is
that (har chih beguyam, haman ast).'"


This sums up to this: Abdu'l-Baha was not inherently infallible, but he was gifted by Baha'u'llah and whatever he says is correct. Thus whatever he says is right and there is nothing incorrect in his words/writings.

A similar stance can be seen in his other statements too: When `Abdu’l-Bahā was asked if he knew everything, he had answered:
"No, I do not know everything. But when I need to know something, it is pictured before me."
Stanwood Cobb, Memories of `Abdu’l-Bahā in In his Presence: Visits to `Abdu’l-Bahā (Kalimāt Press, 1989), p. 60.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kernk View Post
h123,

You totally ignored my question:

Just what is it about the Baha’i Faith that you deplore so much that you must find obscure places you can twist our beliefs, and attack our founders in order to try to discredit our faith. Just what is it you want to discredit?

The Baha’i Faith teaches:

There is One God - are you against this teaching?

Thou art the God of power, of glory and bounty. No God is there beside Thee, the Supreme Ruler, the All-Glorious, the Omniscient.

(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 6)

Humankind should love each other as family and be kind and thoughtful - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

We should act with justice and be fair - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

That God loves all humanity - are you against this teaching?

O SON OF MAN!
Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Humanity is one and should embrace its unity - are you against this?

The Divine Messengers have been sent down, and their Books were revealed, for the purpose of promoting the knowledge of God, and of furthering unity and fellowship amongst men.

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 12)


The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)

---

Perhaps it is the equality of men and women, the elimination of prejudice, the oneness of religion, or economic justice that you disagree with - Just what is it about a faith that brings people together in the worship of God and with the goal of improving the world for all mankind that you object to?
No I did not ignore your questions. I told you to read the book in my signature for that book addresses all your questions. A discussion on each of your questions needs a separate thread altogether.

But, I will give you a short answer. Baha'i literature is replete with inconsistencies and contradictions regarding the subjects you mentioned.

If someone claims the unity of God, HE doesn't go about claiming that he created multiple God's:
“All Gods became Gods from the flow of my affairs and all Lords became Lords by the overflowing of my decree,” `Abdu’l-Bahā, Makātīb, vol. 2, p. 255 (citing Baha'u'llah)

You can't go about preaching love while at the same time screwing someone to the greatest extent imaginable by excommunicating them. You cannot preach love but at the same time tell people that you intended to refute them and incite hatred in their hearts:
"We did not want to meet you except to complete God’s proof upon you and those who are around you so that the fire of hatred would dwell in your chest and the chest of those who do not believe in the Lord of the Lords."
Bahā’u’llāh, Āthār-i Qalam-i A`lā, vol. 1, no. 97, p. 339.
.
.
.

This thread was not created for these discussions. Soon enough we will discuss all of these subjects in different threads.
 
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