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Old 09-25-2016, 03:13 PM   #1
Lives in hope
 
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Satan exists

After much prayer and reading,I now believe this to be true. The faith teaches that evil is caused by man's baser instincts, this is also true because of original sin. There's so much evidence historically and presently for the existence of Satan that I feel we deny his existence at our peril. For example, yesterday a rally took place in Dublin consisting of 20,000 young people demanding the right to abortion on demand. This is an example of satans work in Ireland, a country where once Catholicism was so beloved of the people
 
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Old 09-25-2016, 04:07 PM   #2
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Oh, come on! You know better than that!

Loving greetings

from

gnat
 
Old 09-25-2016, 10:35 PM   #3
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AidanK View Post
After much prayer and reading,I now believe this to be true. The faith teaches that evil is caused by man's baser instincts, this is also true because of original sin. There's so much evidence historically and presently for the existence of Satan that I feel we deny his existence at our peril. For example, yesterday a rally took place in Dublin consisting of 20,000 young people demanding the right to abortion on demand. This is an example of satans work in Ireland, a country where once Catholicism was so beloved of the people
Dear AidanK - Hope you are well and happy dear friend.

As more people stay indoors and turn off the light there is more darkness. We are fortunate that we can walk outside and watch the Rising Sun and do not have to partake of the darkness.

We must invite as many as we can out of that dark.

We will show them that Satan is on the losing team and is already bewailing His plight 😆😉

Regards Tony
 
Old 09-26-2016, 10:06 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AidanK View Post
After much prayer and reading,I now believe this to be true. The faith teaches that evil is caused by man's baser instincts, this is also true because of original sin. There's so much evidence historically and presently for the existence of Satan that I feel we deny his existence at our peril.
I'm not sure if you mean "Satan, the Baha'i metaphor for human's animal instincts, exists", or "Satan, the fallen angel with real power over this world, exists."

On one hand, your talk about "man's baser instincts" leads me to believe you are talking about the former...

But on the other hand, you seem to be rather anthropomorphizing the satan and refer to it as a "him", and talk about the importance of not "[denying] his existence", which points to the latter...

Care to clarify to which you refer?? The latter is easily enough debunked, whereas I think the former's anthropomorphic focus is starting to cause confusion around the subject, and that anthropomorphism is probably best discarded in this current age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AidanK View Post
For example, yesterday a rally took place in Dublin consisting of 20,000 young people demanding the right to abortion on demand. This is an example of satans work in Ireland, a country where once Catholicism was so beloved of the people
I personally feel that we deny the humanity of people who disagree with us at our peril. Remember, "a kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men"!! Speak about the people disagreeing with you as "an example of satans (sic) work" and they will close their hearts to you. Adopt a kindly tongue, acknowledge their humanity and motives, and seek to convince them in a welcoming way, and you'll convince a lot more people.

To play devil's advocate for a moment (pun VERY MUCH intended ), these people aren't satanic or necessarily even motivated by evil or even basal, animalistic intentions.

These 20,000 people simply have disagreements on when human life begins. They think that up to a certain point, a fetus isn't living. Thus, as compassionate (but misguided) individuals, they think the most virtuous thing to do is to allow for abortions.

And their logic is technically sound (just built on poor axioms). Logically, it follows that sacrificing something that is not a human life for the benefit of a human life is a moral thing to do. The logic by which they get their conclusions is both benevolent and logically sound. Merely, the axiom they start their logic with (a sufficiently young fetus is lifeless) is what has the flaw.

A good portion of them are also swayed by relatively common neo-Malthusian fear-mongering that lingers in societal consciousness. Despite plenty of evidence to the contrary (like the mathematics and predictions of Malthus, the man who predicted the world would soon have too many people being incorrect in his predictions up to this point in time) lots of people believe that we are running out of space, and that the global population is too high. Thus, they view it as a virtuous act, to save the world and all humanity, by not bringing into the world any new persons. Again, it is sound and moral logic built on faulty axioms. The world is not running out of space and Malthus has been thoroughly debunked, but were the earth running out of space and resources it would be virtuous to try to limit our population growth, and were there no life within a fetus, it would be virtuous to destroy one to curb the population growth.

Some also think they have the child's best interests in mind, thinking that the life of the child would have hardships, therefore it is best to end the child before it has life. If it was truly better to not-exist than to exist and endure hardship, then this too would be a virtuous thing.

Finally there's a good bit of pro-choice people who are pro-choice out of sympathy for victims of rape. They often talk about how a woman should not be forced to bring "her rapist's child" into the world.

Now I disagree with all their conclusions above.

I think debate about when the life begins misses the point, and think that something that will develop, if unhindered, into future life should be just as sacred as life itself.

I think, as I've stated, the mathematics behind the economist Malthus and the fears he has inspired are quite wrong, as history has shown (our current population is ridiculously less then Malthus calculated it would be in this day and age), and that "overpopulation" is thus not a valid reason to support population growth reduction.

I think a terrible existence is better than none at all. Ultimately, until a life is lived to its completion (and infinite lives mean this completion can never be attained) it would be impossible for persons unable to see the future to tell if a life would be better off never existing than existing.

And on the final motive I outline above, I do not believe people should suffer consequences for the sins of their forefathers, and don't believe a parent inherently has possession of a child. I would not think it virtuous to punish another individual because their parent is a rapist, much less have them endure the punishment of never existing.

But my disagreements aside, I can acknowledge the humanity and good intentions of the opposition on this issue. And I firmly believe, even without the countless Baha'i Scriptures affirming this is the case, that only by acknowledging the good intentions and virtue and humanity of the people you disagree with do you stand even a minute chance of being able to show them the flaws in their logic.

The biggest problem right now between the whole pro-choice/pro-life debate is how contentious it is. Neither side seems to acknowledge the other side's humanity. Each side brands the other as either heartless murderers or patriarchal sexists without any willingness to discuss things rationally or peacefully. For the reason of just how vitriolic the debates have gotten, this is my first post on the subject at all, on any part of the internet, and I have never sought to discuss the topic in real life .

This disagreement will fester until more Baha'i-style dialog is brought into it. Less dubbing the enemy Satan and more acknowledging the other side as not even an enemy, just another human who disagrees and has good intentions. That is the only way that constructive dialog will begin on the subject. It is the only way that the massive politicized struggle will come to the end. And it is the only way to convince the other side they are making significant errors in judgement.

"Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding"

Last edited by Walrus; 09-26-2016 at 10:12 AM.
 
Old 09-26-2016, 10:14 AM   #5
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I used to live next door to the park where the Pride Parade gathered. That was the day to shut the windows and stay home reading a book.

gnat
 
Old 09-26-2016, 02:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat View Post
Oh, come on! You know better than that!

Loving greetings

from

gnat
Please don't be so dismissive of a deeply held belief. And for clarification, Im referring to lucifer the archangel who dared challenge Gods authority and was therefore cast into hell along with his cohorts!
 
Old 09-26-2016, 02:35 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
I'm not sure if you mean "Satan, the Baha'i metaphor for human's animal instincts, exists", or "Satan, the fallen angel with real power over this world, exists."

On one hand, your talk about "man's baser instincts" leads me to believe you are talking about the former...

But on the other hand, you seem to be rather anthropomorphizing the satan and refer to it as a "him", and talk about the importance of not "[denying] his existence", which points to the latter...

Care to clarify to which you refer?? The latter is easily enough debunked, whereas I think the former's anthropomorphic focus is starting to cause confusion around the subject, and that anthropomorphism is probably best discarded in this current age.



I personally feel that we deny the humanity of people who disagree with us at our peril. Remember, "a kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men"!! Speak about the people disagreeing with you as "an example of satans (sic) work" and they will close their hearts to you. Adopt a kindly tongue, acknowledge their humanity and motives, and seek to convince them in a welcoming way, and you'll convince a lot more people.

To play devil's advocate for a moment (pun VERY MUCH intended ), these people aren't satanic or necessarily even motivated by evil or even basal, animalistic intentions.

These 20,000 people simply have disagreements on when human life begins. They think that up to a certain point, a fetus isn't living. Thus, as compassionate (but misguided) individuals, they think the most virtuous thing to do is to allow for abortions.

And their logic is technically sound (just built on poor axioms). Logically, it follows that sacrificing something that is not a human life for the benefit of a human life is a moral thing to do. The logic by which they get their conclusions is both benevolent and logically sound. Merely, the axiom they start their logic with (a sufficiently young fetus is lifeless) is what has the flaw.

A good portion of them are also swayed by relatively common neo-Malthusian fear-mongering that lingers in societal consciousness. Despite plenty of evidence to the contrary (like the mathematics and predictions of Malthus, the man who predicted the world would soon have too many people being incorrect in his predictions up to this point in time) lots of people believe that we are running out of space, and that the global population is too high. Thus, they view it as a virtuous act, to save the world and all humanity, by not bringing into the world any new persons. Again, it is sound and moral logic built on faulty axioms. The world is not running out of space and Malthus has been thoroughly debunked, but were the earth running out of space and resources it would be virtuous to try to limit our population growth, and were there no life within a fetus, it would be virtuous to destroy one to curb the population growth.

Some also think they have the child's best interests in mind, thinking that the life of the child would have hardships, therefore it is best to end the child before it has life. If it was truly better to not-exist than to exist and endure hardship, then this too would be a virtuous thing.

Finally there's a good bit of pro-choice people who are pro-choice out of sympathy for victims of rape. They often talk about how a woman should not be forced to bring "her rapist's child" into the world.

Now I disagree with all their conclusions above.

I think debate about when the life begins misses the point, and think that something that will develop, if unhindered, into future life should be just as sacred as life itself.

I think, as I've stated, the mathematics behind the economist Malthus and the fears he has inspired are quite wrong, as history has shown (our current population is ridiculously less then Malthus calculated it would be in this day and age), and that "overpopulation" is thus not a valid reason to support population growth reduction.

I think a terrible existence is better than none at all. Ultimately, until a life is lived to its completion (and infinite lives mean this completion can never be attained) it would be impossible for persons unable to see the future to tell if a life would be better off never existing than existing.

And on the final motive I outline above, I do not believe people should suffer consequences for the sins of their forefathers, and don't believe a parent inherently has possession of a child. I would not think it virtuous to punish another individual because their parent is a rapist, much less have them endure the punishment of never existing.

But my disagreements aside, I can acknowledge the humanity and good intentions of the opposition on this issue. And I firmly believe, even without the countless Baha'i Scriptures affirming this is the case, that only by acknowledging the good intentions and virtue and humanity of the people you disagree with do you stand even a minute chance of being able to show them the flaws in their logic.

The biggest problem right now between the whole pro-choice/pro-life debate is how contentious it is. Neither side seems to acknowledge the other side's humanity. Each side brands the other as either heartless murderers or patriarchal sexists without any willingness to discuss things rationally or peacefully. For the reason of just how vitriolic the debates have gotten, this is my first post on the subject at all, on any part of the internet, and I have never sought to discuss the topic in real life .

This disagreement will fester until more Baha'i-style dialog is brought into it. Less dubbing the enemy Satan and more acknowledging the other side as not even an enemy, just another human who disagrees and has good intentions. That is the only way that constructive dialog will begin on the subject. It is the only way that the massive politicized struggle will come to the end. And it is the only way to convince the other side they are making significant errors in judgement.

"Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding"
Sometimes you've just got to call out people who are supporting evil, enough of the platitudes!
 
Old 09-26-2016, 03:41 PM   #8
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Please don't be so dismissive of a deeply held belief. And for clarification, Im referring to lucifer the archangel who dared challenge Gods authority and was therefore cast into hell along with his cohorts!
Oh, I'm not dismissive but you're a Bahá'í and have acess to a higher level of knowledge. The subject of evil has been thoroughly explained by Bahá'u'lláh in such a manner as to simply discard the idea of a personal devil as an explanation to the problem. Occam's razor, you know: just throw out unnecessary factors.

Best

from

gnat

P. S. But as a divorced gnat, I must admit that there have been moments when I have been considering the existence of devils and demons.
 
Old 09-26-2016, 04:32 PM   #9
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Sometimes you've just got to call out people who are supporting evil, enough of the platitudes!
Just as you say, call out the people who support evil. I think that blaming it on an external entity is making excuses.
 
Old 09-26-2016, 05:09 PM   #10
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Just as you say, call out the people who support evil. I think that blaming it on an external entity is making excuses.
People must chose whether or not to follow satans path
 
Old 09-27-2016, 12:56 AM   #11
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People must chose whether or not to follow satans path
AidanK - You just suported it as a choice of self :-)

Read Abdul'baha on the subject and Meditate, Abdul'baha always explained the subject well.

God bless and be happy, regards Tony
 
Old 09-27-2016, 12:57 AM   #12
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the Blessed Beauty and the Master both had quite a bit to say about "tolerance"...
 
Old 09-27-2016, 01:06 AM   #13
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the Blessed Beauty and the Master both had quite a bit to say about "tolerance"...
We know so little :-)

Lucky this subject has been explained in detail. I think because of how Satan was elevated to a power unto Himself and not ourselves.

Regards Tony
 
Old 09-27-2016, 05:00 AM   #14
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the Blessed Beauty and the Master both had quite a bit to say about "tolerance"...
And then again, they and the Guardian didn't beat about the bush when things had reached an unacceptable level.

gnat
 
Old 09-27-2016, 07:25 AM   #15
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Sometimes you've just got to call out people who are supporting evil, enough of the platitudes!
Baha'i Scripture seems more than platitudes to me.

"Sometimes you've just got to call out people who are supporting evil"

Tell me how does this help?? If calling people out for supporting evil advances the cause, then I would agree. But if it does nothing, there is no purpose to it.

Because from what I've seen, callout culture does not work. It never works. Calling someone satanic will not convince them they are wrong, it will do the opposite and convince them they are right. No one, in the long history of mankind has said "I held a belief, until a man told me my deeply held beliefs were satanic and evil, so I changed them." Your style of "calling people out" only causes people who "support evil" to support it with more certitude. How is this a good thing??

Scripture clearly outlines the obviously observable truth that only kindly speech can win people's hearts. If you reject Baha'u'llah's advice on the subject, that's fine, and I understand the desire to try to fight against evil. But it is impossible the way you are attempting to do so, you'll only cause more of the evil you despise by going about it this way.

Last edited by Walrus; 09-27-2016 at 08:00 AM.
 
Old 09-27-2016, 07:33 AM   #16
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And for clarification, Im referring to lucifer the archangel who dared challenge Gods authority and was therefore cast into hell along with his cohorts!
Unfortunately I think your beliefs raise some questions and contradictions:

Why would the devil be allowed power over the world??

Why would someone cast into hell be afforded power over this world??

Does God seriously allow those cast into "hell" power over the living??

Is this privilege something God grants to just the Shaitan, or does God let other evil deceased persons like Stalin and Hitler also impose their will on this world??

In what world where there is a just all-powerful God and a Satan who is the incarnation of pure evil would that God ever allow that Satan to have even a crumb of power??

Why should the Devil, who is the antithesis of everything God finds good, be granted more power than the humans who serve and obey God??

How does this make any sense??

"Deeply held belief" or not, your current thoughts seem to contradict and make no sense when thought through. I'm afraid if you want to continue to assert the devil is real and has power, you'll have to explain how that somehow makes sense with what we know about God. The claims you have made beg for conclusive proof and explanation, because as of now, they contradict themselves.

Last edited by Walrus; 09-27-2016 at 07:59 AM.
 
Old 09-27-2016, 12:29 PM   #17
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All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth. … Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings From the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 149-150.




If you wish to believe other than the words of Baha'u'llah I am no one to tell you not to do so, but any spiritual matter that is contrary to Baha'u'llah's teachings is incorrect. Don't do this to yourself. Baha'u'llah wrote the answers, and gave us the Servant of Glory and the Guardian to help us see them. Find them. Don't grope about in superstition.
 
Old 09-27-2016, 01:28 PM   #18
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Above all, believing in a personal, evil power causes a relapse inta a dualistic, black-and-white world view, that quite simply isn't the remedy to the present world's problems. That's our responsibility as Bahá'ís - to allow our thinking to be influenced by its basic tenets

gnat
 
Old 09-27-2016, 01:48 PM   #19
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My God, you can be an aggressive lot ! Having lived in N Ireland all my life with people dying because of which church they attend , I know something about evil

Last edited by AidanK; 09-27-2016 at 01:51 PM.
 
Old 09-27-2016, 02:24 PM   #20
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My God, you can be an aggressive lot ! Having lived in N Ireland all my life with people dying because of which church they attend , I know something about evil
Dear Aidan,

When did I turn aggressive? This isn't my aggressive. It isn't even near my aggressive. I reserve my aggressiveness for corrupt judges and lawyers. To others, and especially to you, whom I much appreciate, I just express my heart-felt beliefs.

Abortion is a horribe subject - food for mightmares to those who reflect upon it. But I could enumerate any amount of actions, activities worthy of our zealous resistance, if zealous resistance were the kind of action endorsed by our Faith - but it isn't. Thus, we have to find personal positions on various matters that are wise and informed by our Faith. Tough job indeed.

Best

from

gnat
 
Old 09-27-2016, 07:45 PM   #21
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Satan Exists

After much prayer and reading,I now believe this to be true.
Can you elaborate?
 
Old 09-28-2016, 07:13 AM   #22
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My God, you can be an aggressive lot ! Having lived in N Ireland all my life with people dying because of which church they attend , I know something about evil
Sorry, I'll try to do better at moderating tone.

But consider:

If my words above were too aggressive for you to even consider or acknowledge my points raised, what makes you think any of the people you wish to turn away from evil will consider your aggressive words, equating them with Satan??

After all, no one here has gone so far as to equate your actions with the manipulation of a devil. Consider why the tone of others causes you to find their points not worth consideration, and think if you can apply that thinking to your own strategy of persuasion.
 
Old 09-28-2016, 11:45 AM   #23
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My God, you can be an aggressive lot ! Having lived in N Ireland all my life with people dying because of which church they attend , I know something about evil
Dear AidanK - Satan or Evil exists if we allow it to be so. No aggression meant, just clarification as to your "Frame of Reference".

You would aware this subject has been well explaines in the Baha'i Wrtings, thus to say other than what those wrtings say is interesting at least. 😊

It is to me as simple as stated. Darkness is the Absence of Light, Evil the Absence of Good. The animating force is the High end of the Positive scale, as we move further away from this source the negitive aspect becomes manifest, it has no power but what we give it.

Now when the majority of the world turns more towards Darkness, to me it is like the middle of the night, you need a light to find your way. This is the Message of Baha'u'llah and all it contains.

Switch the light off and we are back in darkness.

Regards Tony
 
Old 09-28-2016, 02:00 PM   #24
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So, are all episodes of demonic Posession mental illness, exaggerations, lies or something else?
 
Old 09-28-2016, 02:01 PM   #25
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Love and best wishes to you dear Aidank

As Tony has said this subject has been explained By Baha'u'llah, there is nothing else to say.
bill
 
Old 09-28-2016, 04:22 PM   #26
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So, are all episodes of demonic Posession mental illness, exaggerations, lies or something else?
AidanK - Now this is getting into the right Frame of Reference so we can consider this matter, to me this is a great question.

I have reflected on this subject a fair bit over the years and my current conclusion is that Darkness feeds the want for more Darkness.

Like walking from a totally dark room to a midday sun. It blinds one and they find it uncomfortable for quite some time before vision is again ok.

This is why a lot choose not to walk outside, only those who are prepared and willing will then see the beauty of it all.

I have had the thought for some time that mankind feeds this darkness by our actions, words and what we choose to be involved in or partake of or watch.

Notice how violence increases the more that violence has become entertainment, how morality declines when inmorallity is practiced and used for entertainment.

Abdul'baha says many times that if a bad thought comes replace it with a good thought.

At work, no time but worth discussing, will come back later.

Regards Tony
 
Old 09-28-2016, 04:44 PM   #27
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Quote:
So, are all episodes of demonic Posession mental illness, exaggerations, lies or something else?
I think there are thought-patterns that can be considered as demonic, such as rage, hatred, unthinking lust, unbridled greed and the like. Human beings can allow themselves to be filled with these thought-patterns and taken over by them. But in my belief this is ultimately something that is part of our animal nature, not some kind of powerful external spiritual entity that is attacking us.
 
Old 09-29-2016, 07:11 AM   #28
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From my POV, malevolent demonic entities and evil thoughts/uncounscious traumas/negative emotions share the same nature. Though some are creatures from God, while the others are pshychological phenomenons, they work the same and are profoundly intermingled.

AFAIK, attacks from malevolent entities are at the same time an outer and an inner process.
 
Old 09-29-2016, 01:58 PM   #29
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From my POV, malevolent demonic entities and evil thoughts/uncounscious traumas/negative emotions share the same nature. Though some are creatures from God, while the others are pshychological phenomenons, they work the same and are profoundly intermingled.

AFAIK, attacks from malevolent entities are at the same time an outer and an inner process.
I agree that there is a outer and an inner dimension to these phenomena. Now we are teasing out some useful ideology brethren
 
Old 09-29-2016, 02:07 PM   #30
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Yes, quite the topic. One principle I learned from Boethus (5th century Catholic philosopher) which amazed me at the time and gives me a greater sense of awe now comes from his book 'The Consolation of Philosophy' where in conversations with Lady Wisdom he discovers this truth,
"Hence it is that this supreme providence brings to pass this notable marvel that the bad make the bad good. For some, when they see the injustice which they themselves surfer at the hands of evil-doers, are inflamed with detestation of the offenders, and, in the endeavour to be unlike those whom they hate, return to the ways of virtue. It is the Divine power alone to which things evil are also good, in that, by putting them to suitable use, it bringeth them in the end to some good issue."
 
Old 09-29-2016, 03:07 PM   #31
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Yes, quite the topic. One principle I learned from Boethus (5th century Catholic philosopher) which amazed me at the time and gives me a greater sense of awe now comes from his book 'The Consolation of Philosophy' where in conversations with Lady Wisdom he discovers this truth,
"Hence it is that this supreme providence brings to pass this notable marvel that the bad make the bad good. For some, when they see the injustice which they themselves surfer at the hands of evil-doers, are inflamed with detestation of the offenders, and, in the endeavour to be unlike those whom they hate, return to the ways of virtue. It is the Divine power alone to which things evil are also good, in that, by putting them to suitable use, it bringeth them in the end to some good issue."
But nowadays we have another problem: that of people who suffer injustice, and who, in the process of resistance to that injustice, become as injust as the evil-doers they try to fight.

That is why a dualistic approach, where one (of course?) defines oneself as one of the good, and then automatically define "the others" as the champions of Satan and the representatives of Evil and Corruption on Earth, is very likely to lead to a result, where one has become as full of hatred and aggression as the evil-doers. And then there remains a good question: who is good and who is evil?

No, identifying the opponent as evil is NOT the correct approach today. Looking for Satan on Earth has nothing to do with our Faith.

Sorry, but I express my sincere conviction. And it happens to be in line with our Faith - maybe because I've been a Bahá'í for some 30-odd years.

And I have experence from fighting evil. I do it every day, but I take great care in not condemning the opponents as evil. I just demonstrate behaviours that are wrong and look for remedies.

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Old 09-30-2016, 07:11 AM   #32
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No, identifying the opponent as evil is NOT the correct approach today. Looking for Satan on Earth has nothing to do with our Faith.
And Gnat wins the thread.

Though I'd add that "identifying the opponent as evil" was not the correct approach for a long while now!!

Imagine if Jesus had gone around screaming at the sinners and tax collectors, denouncing them as evil agents of Satan, instead of breaking bread in fellowship and communion with them.
 
Old 09-30-2016, 01:41 PM   #33
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But no one does evil simply because it's evil, there's always a perceived good. A man who sadistically kills another does so for the pleasure that he enjoys in inflicting pain. The pleasure is the perceived good. It's satanic influences that makes one human enjoy inflicting pain on another and which makes such abhorrent actions attractive even fulfilling for the doer
 
Old 09-30-2016, 02:21 PM   #34
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But no one does evil simply because it's evil, there's always a perceived good. A man who sadistically kills another does so for the pleasure that he enjoys in inflicting pain. The pleasure is the perceived good. It's satanic influences that makes one human enjoy inflicting pain on another and which makes such abhorrent actions attractive even fulfilling for the doer
This really only says the person has not yet gained his spiritual limbs. Really still a bat in the cave.

Regards Tony
 
Old 10-01-2016, 09:53 AM   #35
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Great fight between God and devil

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Originally Posted by AidanK View Post
So, are all episodes of demonic Posession mental illness, exaggerations, lies or something else?
Satan exist like God exist, both are not visible. We can said about some dreadful and tyranny people - they are rather "satans in human skin
"
 
Old 10-01-2016, 10:50 AM   #36
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Honestly, this is getting too weird for my taste. I don't wish to have the Faith associated with crackpots and sheer lunacy. I think I'll leave for a while.

gnat
 
Old 10-01-2016, 11:34 AM   #37
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Honestly, this is getting too weird for my taste. I don't wish to have the Faith associated with crackpots and sheer lunacy. I think I'll leave for a while.

gnat
Dear Gnat - The wrintings are very clear that the Faith has to go through many Tests and Trials, just as each of us all do.

Materialisim is deep, very very deep.

We help by being in True Unity with all, understanding that we all have vain imaginings and flawed concepts of God. We are united in our Ignorance and United in our effort to change that Ignorance.

You would be aware of the writings that tell us what to do if we think we posess a Gem . Most importantly we have to see that God has created us all in His Image.

If we are lovers of God could we not then say every Atom of creation is a mirror of God. A man is made of many atoms, if 99% of them are still clouded but one is still polished, it is the One that attracts those searching for God.

Be strong Gnat, as the old World Order rolls up much dust is created, keep polishing dear friend, we all need to be flat out polishing our mirrors by helping others with theirs. It can not be done alone in this age IMHO.

Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 10-01-2016 at 11:37 AM.
 
Old 10-01-2016, 12:29 PM   #38
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Honestly, this is getting too weird for my taste. I don't wish to have the Faith associated with crackpots and sheer lunacy. I think I'll leave for a while.

gnat
I have never before been called a lunatic crackpot. I think it's time for me to go quiet and reflect on this
 
Old 10-01-2016, 12:31 PM   #39
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I have never before been called a lunatic crackpot. I think it's time for me to go quiet and reflect on this
You're not included, dear Aidan. Then, who remains....?

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Old 10-01-2016, 12:37 PM   #40
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You're not included, dear Aidan. Then, who remains....?

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