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Old 11-05-2016, 07:32 PM   #1
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Did the Bab say Baha'u'llah would come in nine years?

Hi all,

I saw a claim somewhere that the Bab said that the next prophet would come nine years after the Bab, and that Baha'u'llah fulfilled this prediction. Is this true? If so, can this be verified? Is it something the Bab wrote down?

Thank you.
 
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Old 11-05-2016, 11:28 PM   #2
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quoted in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf written by Bahá’u’lláh and Translated by Shoghi Effendi, it is said;

"In another connection hath the Voice of the Bayán called aloud from the loftiest branches. He saith—blessed and glorified be He: “In the year nine ye will attain unto all good.” On another occasion He saith: “In the year nine ye will attain unto the Presence of God.” These melodies, uttered by the Birds of the cities of Knowledge, conform with that which hath been sent down by the All-Merciful in the Qur’án. Blessed are the men of insight; blessed they that attain thereunto".

It is in the Bayan, there is no English Translation, just French and Arabic

Le Beyan Persan

Le Beyan Arabe

It is worth looking at the quotes from Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi on this subject.

Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 11-05-2016 at 11:31 PM.
 
Old 11-06-2016, 12:12 AM   #3
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Year Nine Other Quotes

"O Shaykh! I swear by God! The River of Mercy floweth, and the Ocean of Utterance surgeth, and the Sun of Revelation shineth forth resplendent. With a detached heart, and a dilated breast, and an utterly truthful tongue, recite thou these sublime words that have been revealed by My Forerunner -- the Primal Point. He saith -- glorified be His utterance -- addressing his honor, Azim: "This, verily, is the thing We promised thee, ere the moment We answered thy call. Wait thou until nine will have elapsed from the time of the Bayan. Then exclaim: 'Blessed, therefore, be God, the most excellent of Makers!' Say: This, verily, is an Announcement which none except God hath comprehended. Ye, however, will be unaware on that day." In the year nine this Most Great Revelation arose and shone forth brightly above the horizon of the Will of God. None can deny it save he who is heedless and doubteth. We pray God to aid His servants to return unto Him, and beg forgiveness for the things they committed in this vain life. He, verily, is the Forgiving, the Pardoner, the All-Merciful. In another connection He saith: "I am the first servant to believe in Him, and in His signs." In like manner, in the Persian Bayan, He saith: "He, verily, is the One Who, under all conditions, proclaimeth: 'I, in very truth, am


God!'" and so on -- blessed and glorified be He. That which is meant by Divinity and Godhead hath previously been stated. We have in truth rent the veils asunder and disclosed that which will draw men nigh unto God, Who layeth low the necks of men. Happy the man that hath attained unto justice and equity in this Grace that hath encompassed all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth, as bidden by God, the Lord of the worlds".

Baha'u'llah : Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

"This was early in the year 1853, or nine years after the Báb's Declaration, thus fulfilling certain prophecies of the Báb concerning "the year nine."

Dr. J.E. Esslemont : Baha'u'llah and the New Era

Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 11-06-2016 at 12:18 AM.
 
Old 11-06-2016, 12:13 AM   #4
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Year 9 Quote

"The word of God which the Supreme Pen hath recorded on the fifth leaf of the Most Exalted Paradise is this: Above all else, the greatest gift and the most wondrous blessing hath ever been and will continue to be Wisdom. It is man's unfailing Protector. It aideth him and strengtheneth him. Wisdom is God's Emissary and the Revealer of His Name the Omniscient. Through it the loftiness of man's station is made manifest and evident. It is all-knowing and the foremost Teacher in the school of existence. It is the Guide and is invested with high distinction. Thanks to its educating influence earthly beings have become imbued with a gem-like spirit which outshineth the heavens. In the city of justice it is the unrivalled Speaker Who, in the year nine, illumined the world with the joyful tidings of this Revelation. And it was this peerless Source of wisdom that at the beginning of the foundation of the world ascended the stair of inner meaning and when enthroned upon the pulpit of utterance, through the operation of the divine Will, proclaimed two words. The first heralded the promise of reward, while the second voiced the ominous warning of punishment. The promise gave rise to hope and the warning begat fear. Thus the basis of world order hath been firmly established upon these twin principles. Exalted is the Lord of Wisdom, the Possessor of Great Bounty".

Baha'u'llah : Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas

Regards Tony
 
Old 11-06-2016, 12:14 AM   #5
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Year 9 Quote

"Whoso hath quaffed of the wine of divine knowledge will indeed be able to answer such questions with clear and perspicuous proofs from the world without and with manifest and luminous evidences from the world within. A different Cause, however, hath appeared in this day and a different discourse is required. Indeed, with the inception of the year nine the time for questions and answers came to an end. Thus He, hallowed and magnified be His name, saith: “This is not the day for any man to question his Lord. When thou hearest the call of God voiced by Him Who is the Dayspring of grandeur, cry out: ’Here am I, O Lord of all names! Here am I, O Maker of the heavens! I testify that Thou hast revealed Thyself and hast revealed whatsoever Thou didst desire at Thine Own behest. Thou, in truth, art the Lord of strength and might.’”

Baha'u'llah : The Tabernacle of Unity

Regards Tony
 
Old 11-06-2016, 12:16 AM   #6
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Year 9 100th Aniversery

"This unique event, the centenary of which is to be befittingly celebrated, not only in the American continent but throughout the Bahá'í world, and is destined to be regarded as the culmination of the Second Seven Year Plan, is none other than the Year Nine," anticipated 2,000 years ago as the "third woe" by St. John the Divine, alluded to by both Shaykh Ahmad and Siyyid Kazim -- the twin luminaries that heralded the advent of the Faith of the Báb -- specifically mentioned and extolled by the Herald of the Bahá'í Dispensation in His Writings, and eulogized by both the Founder of our Faith and the Center of His Covenant. In that year, the year "after Hin" (68), mentioned by Shaykh Ahmad, the year that witnessed the birth of the Mission of the promised " Qayyum," specifically referred to by Siyyid Kazim, the "requisite number" in the words of Bahá'u'lláh "of pure, of wholly consecrated and sanctified souls" had been "most secretly consummated." In that year, as testified by the pen of the Báb, the "realities of the created things" were "made manifest," "a new creation was born" and the seed of His Faith revealed its "ultimate perfection." In that year, as borne witness by Abdu'l-Bahá, a hitherto "embryonic Faith" was born. In that year, while the Blessed Beauty lay in chains and fetters, in that dark and pestilential pit, "the breezes of the All-Glorious," as He Himself described it, "were wafted" over Him. There, whilst His neck was weighted down by the Qara-Guhar, His feet in stocks, breathing the fetid air of the Siyah-Chal, He dreamed His dream and heard, "on every side," "exalted words," and His "tongue recited" words that "no man could bear to hear."

There, as He Himself has recorded, under the impact of this dream, He experienced the onrushing force of His newly revealed Mission, that "flowed" even as "a mighty torrent" from His "head" to His "breast," whereupon "every limb" of His body "would be set afire." There, in a vision, the "Most Great Spirit," as He Himself has again testified, appeared to Him, in the guise of a "Maiden" "calling" with "a most wondrous, a most sweet voice" above His Head, whilst "suspended in the air" before Him and, "pointing with her finger" unto His head, imparted "tidings which rejoiced" His "soul." There appeared above the horizon of that dungeon in the city of Tihran, the rim of the Orb of His Faith, whose dawning light had, nine years previously, broken upon the city of Shiraz -- an Orb which, after suffering an eclipse of ten years, was destined to burst forth, with its resplendent rays, upon the city of Baghdad, to mount its zenith in Adrianople, and to set eventually in the prison-fortress of Akka.

Shoghi Effendi : Citadel of Faith

Regards Tony
 
Old 11-07-2016, 08:23 AM   #7
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Thank you for the abundant references. I appreciate you taking the time to reply with these. While searching for more about this, I came across the suggestion that in the Bayan, the Bab expected the next Manifestation to come between 1511 and 2001 years after the Bab. I'm not sure what to make of this because I haven't been able to find a Baha'i response.
 
Old 11-07-2016, 11:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
I came across the suggestion that in the Bayan, the Bab expected the next Manifestation to come between 1511 and 2001 years after the Bab.
These are two different persons. One who comes in the year 1511 and one who comes in the year 2001.
And it seems that Baha'u'llah acknowledged these upcoming manifestations.

Now, read the quote again :
Quote:
“In the year nine ye will attain unto all good.”
This comes from the summary of the 15th Bab of the 6th Wahid, Arabic Bayan.
 
Old 11-07-2016, 11:24 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
These are two different persons. One who comes in the year 1511 and one who comes in the year 2001.
And it seems that Baha'u'llah acknowledged these upcoming manifestations.

Now, read the quote again :


This comes from the summary of the 15th Bab of the 6th Wahid, Arabic Bayan.
Allah'u'abha GoaForce, good to see you.

Thank you, I can not read the Bayan, I would have assumed the Bab waa talking about the Manifestation that Baha'u'llah said would come after at least the expiration if a1000 full years and not before.

God bless and regards Tony
 
Old 11-07-2016, 12:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neophyte View Post
Thank you for the abundant references. I appreciate you taking the time to reply with these. While searching for more about this, I came across the suggestion that in the Bayan, the Bab expected the next Manifestation to come between 1511 and 2001 years after the Bab. I'm not sure what to make of this because I haven't been able to find a Baha'i response.
Greetings Neophyte,

Judging by the dates you have offered it appears to suggest that you have come across some of the works of William Miller. Do appreciate that there are a number of works in existence from Christian Ministers that do not present either the Writings of the Báb or Bahá'u'lláh in a fair historical context. Indeed some have proceeded to attack the integrity of both religions through a range of misrepresentative claims by seeking to give the appearance of being sympathetic advocates.

As you read more and more material from Christian sources you will begin to learn how to identify misinformation of this type. It is to be expected because this was the way some Christians sought to attack the Bábí and Bahá'í Faith. Namely they applied misrepresentative intellectual arguments in the hope of distracting fellow Christians from examining them in serious manner. However, since the advent of the Interfaith Movement, such intellectual approaches towards religious works are now increasingly being viewed for what they were - discriminatory.

I will leave you with the following link and allow you to draw your own conclusions on this matter.

Bahá'í Faith: Its History and Teachings, The by William Miller

I hope this might help you to understand that while it a perfectly fine to read a number of difference sources on the Bábí and Bahá'í Faith - indeed I would positively encourage you to do so. It is also prudent to take great care when there are conflict of interests. If you are mindful of such issues you will soon learn how to identify fact from fiction when reading how authors choose to write about such matters.

The dates 1511 to 2001 are used by Miller in his book entitled: Bahá'í Faith: Its History and Teachings.

Earth

Last edited by Earth; 11-07-2016 at 01:04 PM.
 
Old 11-07-2016, 12:31 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
These are two different persons. One who comes in the year 1511 and one who comes in the year 2001.
And it seems that Baha'u'llah acknowledged these upcoming manifestations.

Now, read the quote again :


This comes from the summary of the 15th Bab of the 6th Wahid, Arabic Bayan.
excellent answer
 
Old 11-07-2016, 12:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
These are two different persons. One who comes in the year 1511 and one who comes in the year 2001.
So that's cool. Does that mean 3355 will see a prophet?? With another in 3845??

Or would this necessarily be the case?? I think the Baha'i implementation of the calendar has changed a number of times since the Bab implemented it ("locking" and "unlocking" from the Gregorian), could that potentially throw the count off??

Subsequently, if the count is thrown off then the next Prophet like all others will arrive unexpectedly, "a Thief in the Night", so to speak.

Also that's an interestingly close manifestation date. 490 years between two prophets. Relatively short given the lengths of some of the waits.
 
Old 11-07-2016, 01:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus
So that's cool. Does that mean 3355 will see a prophet?? With another in 3845??
There is a nuance actually. The Bayan says that these Manifestations need at least 1511 and 2001 years respectivelly to come, but that no one, not even himself or the Manifestations, can know the moment of their coming.

So the more that God can be tricky, and that (I go back to the original question) the Bayan, for instance, doesn't mention explicitely the appearance of Baha'u'llah in the years just after the Bab (quite the contrary, it seems to conceal his coming), even though it becomes evident that it prepares his coming when you read between the lines, at a deeper level.

So, we shall not rely on those dates according to our current comprehension IMO. Because if we do, it's a bit dangerous.

The Jews, for instance, rejected Jesus because he did not fulfill some major prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. Yet it is evident that he is indeed the Messiah.

Moreover, I am not a specialist of the Bayan. I just happened to read a French translation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus
Also that's an interestingly close manifestation date. 490 years between two prophets. Relatively short given the lengths of some of the waits.
There is less than a few years between the Bab and Baha'u'llah. And about 5 centuries between Jesus and Muhammad sws.
 
Old 11-07-2016, 01:48 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
There is a nuance actually. The Bayan says that these Manifestations need at least 1511 and 2001 years respectivelly to come, but that no one, not even himself or the Manifestations, can know the moment of their coming.
It makes sense. If God ever put forth a dispensation with an exact date for the next coming... one can imagine the deluge of prophet-claimants that would emerge at that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
There is less than a few years between the Bab and Baha'u'llah. And about 5 centuries between Jesus and Muhammad sws.
Well apart from the really obviously short one, of course. And it's still on the "short end" of the gaps. A bit shorter than Jesus->Muhammad. But other gaps like Muhammad->Bab, Moses->Jesus, and Krishna->Buddha(in other parts of the world) are quite longer. On the whole, the predicted minimum gap specified is on the short side of dispensation periods.

Abraham->Moses may have been shorter, but honestly I can't put much faith in the estimations on when Abraham lived.
 
Old 11-07-2016, 01:59 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth View Post
Greetings Neophyte,

Judging by the dates you have offered it appears to suggest that you have come across some of the works of William Miller. Do appreciate that there are a number of works in existence from Christian Ministers that do not present either the Writings of the Báb or Bahá'u'lláh in a fair historical context. Indeed some have proceeded to attack the integrity of both religions through a range of misrepresentative claims by seeking to give the appearance of being sympathetic advocates.

As you read more and more material from Christian sources you will begin to learn how to identify misinformation of this type. It is to be expected because this was the way some Christians sought to attack the Bábí and Bahá'í Faith. Namely they applied misrepresentative intellectual arguments in the hope of distracting fellow Christians from examining them in serious manner. However, since the advent of the Interfaith Movement, such intellectual approaches towards religious works are now increasingly being viewed for what they were - discriminatory.

I will leave you with the following link and allow you to draw your own conclusions on this matter.

Bahá'í Faith: Its History and Teachings, The by William Miller

I hope this might help you to understand that while it a perfectly fine to read a number of difference sources on the Bábí and Bahá'í Faith - indeed I would positively encourage you to do so. It is also prudent to take great care when there are conflict of interests. If you are mindful of such issues you will soon learn how to identify fact from fiction when reading how authors choose to write about such matters.

The dates 1511 to 2001 are used by Miller in his book entitled: Bahá'í Faith: Its History and Teachings.

Earth
Is this the William Miller who predicted that Christ would return in 1844?
 
Old 11-07-2016, 02:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AidanK
Is this the William Miller who predicted that Christ would return in 1844?
No. He was a Christian missionary in Persia who translated some Baha'i writings and tried to refute the Baha'i Faith and Islam to convert people to his Church. He wrote The Bahá'í Faith : Its History and Teachings, which is a partisan book that tried to refute the religion based on historical elements. I wanted to read it at some point, but meh, I now see this kind of reading as a waste of time.
 
Old 11-07-2016, 03:03 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by AidanK View Post
Is this the William Miller who predicted that Christ would return in 1844?
No, one's a 19th century Seventh-Day Adventist with no knowledge of the Faith (it'd be infinitely interesting if one could take a time machine, contact the man, and tell him that there WAS a second coming at the time he predicted... he was just on the wrong side of the planet), the other's a 20th century Presbyterian missionary who had quite a bit of "knowledge" of the Faith which he pulled from intentionally biased sources because he was not fond of us.
 
Old 11-07-2016, 03:25 PM   #18
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Greetings Aiden,

No, this is a later William Miller. He was a Presbyterian Minister that lived in Persia for a good number of years who had an interest in history. Due to his works on the Bábí and Bahá'í Faith as a prominent Christian, many modern English references to the dates given in the Bayán today actually originate from his source, not A.L.M. Nicolas' French translation or the Persian Bayán itself. Because of this English readers, especially those from Christian backgrounds, are much more prone to become confused in such matters once this matter has been brought to their attention. French readers in contrast tend to be much more capable of appreciating this matter in an allegorical context because they at least have access to reading a copy of the Bayán in their native language. It might be dated, but it has elevated the French language to become Bábí friendly.

We do of course need to bear in mind that Bahá'u'lláh has Written an emotional plea to request that the Bahá'ís do not persecute the next Manifestation of God like He was persecuted. The inference here is that the Bahá'ís will persecute the next Manifestation of God. This is why the Bayán, which Bahá'u'lláh has referred to as the "Mother Book," requires very delicate handling.

The problem with raw dates in a prophetic context is they can encourage a fundamentalist certainty within some people. One only needs to look at the way some Bahá'ís have approached the Lesser Peace to understand the reality of such dangers. That of course is another story.

Earth

Last edited by Earth; 11-07-2016 at 03:28 PM.
 
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