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Old 04-29-2017, 07:59 AM   #1
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Translating or distorting ?

Well , hy everybody .
In the Kitab i aqdas , baha'u'llah say : "God hath prescribed matrimony unto you. Beware that ye take not unto yourselves more wives than two. Whoso contenteth himself with a single partner from among the maidservants of God, both he and she shall live in tranquillity. And he who would take into his service a maid may do so with propriety. "
About the last sentence : [And he who would take into his service a maid may do so woth propriety] .
The original sentence in arabic is : [ man ittakhadha bikran li khidmatih la ba'sa 'alayh]
"Bikra" means "virgin" in arabic and not "maid" and "la ba'sa 'alayh" means "it would be permissible for him" .
Those the true translation is : he who takes a virgin to serve him it would be permissible for him] .
Also , in one of his tablets , Baha'u'llah refers to the Bab's order of "beheading" all non Babis , This have been translated as "Shedding Blood" in the official Baha'i translation .
What kind of translation is this ? Don't you think it's some kind of distortion ?
 
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Old 04-29-2017, 09:18 AM   #2
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I cannot answer all of your statements but I do know that many years ago, the word "maid" meant "virgin" in English. It is considered archaic now, but since Shoghi Effendi translated the Writings into an old-fashioned English style, it is no surprise that he used the archaic definition of "maid."

I will let others respond to the rest since this is not my area of expertise...
 
Old 04-29-2017, 09:51 AM   #3
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First , this is the 1992 official tranlsation (a holy book translated after 120 years ...) so it's not too old ... "Maid" usually means a "female servant" . Instead , the one that means "virgin" is "maiden"
Secondly , does "shedding of blood" used to mean "Cutting heads" or what ?
 
Old 04-29-2017, 10:27 AM   #4
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Greetings

Quote:
Also , in one of his tablets , Baha'u'llah refers to the Bab's order of "beheading" all non Babis , This have been translated as "Shedding Blood" in the official Baha'i translation .
What kind of translation is this ? Don't you think it's some kind of distortion ?
There are several problems with your assertion.

1_You are demanding precision and acuracy when referring to the Scriptures, but you lack precision yourself. What tablet are you mentionning exactly ?
2_Besides the lack of reference to that tablet, please quote the Bab's Writing that contains the order of "beheading all non-Babis" (which is clearly forbidden in the Bayan).
3_Also, no mention of the translations.

Also, I do not see any distortion in the verse of Aqdas you are referring to. A man can take a young girl as a maid to work for him, and that is admitted. I do not see any problem.

What seems to bother you ?

Peace.
 
Old 04-29-2017, 10:43 AM   #5
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Firdt , The tablet is from the tablets that have been revealed after the Kitab i Aqdas , Lawh I Dunya , page 91 :
"The unbelievers and the faithless have set their minds on four things: first, the shedding of blood; second, the burning of books; third, the shunning of the followers of other religions; fourth, the extermination of other communities and groups . Now however, through the strengthening grace and potency of the Word of God these four barriers have been demolished, these clear injunctions have been obliterated from the Tablet and brutal dispositions have been transmuted into spiritual attributes. "

"Shedding of blood" was originally "Beheading" .
Secondly , how could I quote the Bab's wrtings if you didn't eben bothered to Translate the Holy Book of you Prophet ? ( only "gleanings" from his writings" )
Thirdly , if it is forbidden in the Bayan , then why Baha'u'llah mentionned it in his tablet than abrogated it ?
Fourthly , the translation is the official 1992 Bahai translation , 120 year ms after the Book was revealed ...
 
Old 04-29-2017, 10:55 AM   #6
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Looking forward to further exchanges on this topic. I am sure that Ldvital has more examples.

Best

from

gnat
 
Old 04-29-2017, 11:22 AM   #7
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Greetings again.

Quote:
Thirdly , if it is forbidden in the Bayan , then why Baha'u'llah mentionned it in his tablet than abrogated it ?
There are two things here.
1_I am not sure that this verse refers to the Babi faith.
2_Orders of self-defense (and maybe even jihad, but i am not quite sure) that could be interpreted as blood-shedding were given prior to the revelation of Bayan, that stipulates that any murder (even of unbelievers) is forbidden as the people of Bayan could threaten the life of Him Whom God Shall Manifest. Death penalty is prohibited in the book, as well as prisons. Penalties are replaced by fines and periods of abstinence.

The Bayan has been translated in French, but it is really secondary compared to Baha'u'llah's Writings. It is true that is heart-breaking that it's not available in English, and it's a growing concern that i hope will be addressed soon enough. As for other Writings that took time to be translated, know two things :
1_The Aqdas, though not having an "official" translation prior to 1992, was already available in English-speaking countries (unofficial translations circulating).
Baha'u'llah mentionned that these tablets are like a medicine : there is an right time before prescribing it. The prescription of medicine to a patient whose body is not ready to accept them can be lethal. It is the same for some religious writings.

I will give some examples. For the first example, let me quote a friend of mine :

Quote:
Baha'u'llah, in untranslated tablets (see here for an at-length discussion of this topic), ratifies alchemy as the 'hidden path' and describes it as a 'noble science', while also identifying Hermes as a real personage who learned his knowledge from the prophets and was the 'first philosopher'. However at the time of the believers present to him Baha'u'llah warned them not to traverse that way as it led to what reads as mental-emotional difficulties, perhaps kinds of insanity of the not-so-functional kind and instability (precisely what this means is unclear). He said then, according to the authors provisional translations of those tablets, to leave it alone for then and in time it would become clear as to what it involved. Arguably that time is now, we have models and mapped procedures contemporaneously that have efficacy. Through the efforts in particular of psychiatrist Carl Jung in the 20th Century, alchemy has become re-identified with being an allegory, a map if you like, of interior processes of change of a psychospiritual nature of a given individual as they evolve through what Jung called individuation.
Credit to Slabbb

Also, in the past, some other books issued from Messengers of God were not spread immediately. The Lotus Sutra for instance was released 150 years after the passing of the Buddha, whereas this book is considered to be "the mother of all Sutras, the king of Sutras" and the jewel of Buddha's teachings. According to the Tradition, people before this period of time were not ready to accept it.

Also, the Gospels were not released on the spot.

These are not novels. They are books of power. If we absorb them before being ready, it could be really bad, just as medical treatments.

Now, you seem to be very upset and frustrated by the community for these "inacuracies" in translation. Personnally, i do not have problems with these nuances, as translations need to convey the "idea" rather than the litteral meaning. The Persian culture of that time is filled with images (some of which are violent) that are not known or very much used in the modern Western world. (Like this maiden/virgin thing ; a Persian thinks "virgin girl" when a Western man thinks "young lady" working as a maid.) Do you understand what I mean ?
 
Old 04-29-2017, 01:02 PM   #8
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First , it was clearly refering the Laws of the Bab . Even if they aren't , they aren't Islamic ones . Abdul Baha himself said the same thing about the Laws of the Bab :
"The utterance of the [book or religion] of Bayān in the day of the appearance of his Highness A`lā (meaning the Bāb) was to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bāb’s religion] and verified it." Makatib , Egypt , vol 2 , p266
You say that this is self deffence . Is self deffence applies also extermination of entire communities ?
You said also that death penalty is prohibited in the Persian Bayan ( I know it is) , then why in the Kitab i aqdas , whoever one take a life is to be killed or whoever burn a house is to be burned ?
Yes there were other translations of the Aqdas circulating . Yet , Baha'is were told no to read from them . In 1973 a "Synopsis and Codification" of the book was published in English by the Universal House of Justice with 21 passages of the Aqdas that had already been translated into English by Shoghi Effendi with additional terse lists of laws and ordinances contained . Why don't you just follow the other translations ?
Quote:
Also, in the past, some other books issued from Messengers of God were not spread immediately. The Lotus Sutra for instance was released 150 years after the passing of the Buddha, whereas this book is considered to be "the mother of all Sutras, the king of Sutras" and the jewel of Buddha's teachings. According to the Tradition, people before this period of time were not ready to accept it.

Also, the Gospels were not released on the spot.
Doesn't make no sense , the Kitab i Aqdas was already circulating among Arabic speakig Bahais since 1890 . They translated it for western Bahais only in 1992 ! After 120 years !?
Quote:
Now , you seems to be very upset and frustrated by the community for these "inacuracies" in translation. Personnally, i do not have problems with these nuances, as translations need to convey the "idea" rather than the litteral meaning. The Persian culture of that time is filled with images (some of which are violent) that are not known or very much used in the modern Western world. (Like this maiden/virgin thing ; a Persian thinks "virgin girl" when a Western man thinks "young lady" working as a maid.) Do you understand what I mean ?
So , it is normal for you that the writings of your Prophet gets distorted for specific purposes ? Really ? It is clearly written in the Arabic one : bikran بكرا means Virgin . Yet they distort it by completely changing its meaning to "maid" ? Why ? Maybe because the "taking of a virgin" is against the Baha'i principle of "Equality of sexes" ?
 
Old 04-29-2017, 01:09 PM   #9
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Greetings (again) !

I don't have time to answer all, but :

Quote:
So , it is normal for you that the writings of your Prophet gets distorted for specific purposes ? Really ? It is clearly written in the Arabic one : bikran بكرا means Virgin . Yet they distort it by completely changing its meaning to "maid" ? Why ? Maybe because the "taking of a virgin" is against the Baha'i principle of "Equality of sexes" ?
Errr, no. Why ?

In both cases it is the same idea, which is that of employing a young lady as being permissible. Why does it bother you ? I really do not understand your concern.

Let us please focus on that idea, because you talked of it first. How does that verse disturb you ?

I see nothing here that is controversial.
 
Old 04-29-2017, 01:12 PM   #10
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Oh, Ldvital, you're so funny, and your intentions so obvious. Please go on presenting some more arguments. I'll enjoy reading them. But please come up with something new that we haven't seen before.

Best from

gnat

P. S. Make my day and surprise me - say something positive about our Faith.

Last edited by gnat; 04-29-2017 at 02:40 PM.
 
Old 04-29-2017, 06:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvital View Post
So , it is normal for you that the writings of your Prophet gets distorted for specific purposes ? Really ? It is clearly written in the Arabic one : bikran بكرا means Virgin . Yet they distort it by completely changing its meaning to "maid" ? Why ? Maybe because the "taking of a virgin" is against the Baha'i principle of "Equality of sexes" ?
I am 100% positive that "maid" is an archaic way to say "virgin." My dictionary says so. You may disagree with its use, but it is not a complete distortion.

Since you are so fluent in Arabic, perhaps you could elucidate whether, in Arabic, it is always assumed that the only use for a female virgin is for sex. That seems to be what you are implying, no? I plead genuine ignorance when I ask: Could there be no other connotation? Perhaps the English translation of the Aqdas relied on other connotations, and the use of the twofold meaning of "maid" would more accurately convey the true meaning than your preferred translation. After all, the term "virgin" implies sexual purity, and it is unquestionably possible to have a virgin present without a violation of that purity...
 
Old 04-29-2017, 08:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvital View Post
Well , hy everybody .
In the Kitab i aqdas , baha'u'llah say : "God hath prescribed matrimony unto you. Beware that ye take not unto yourselves more wives than two. Whoso contenteth himself with a single partner from among the maidservants of God, both he and she shall live in tranquillity. And he who would take into his service a maid may do so with propriety. "
About the last sentence : [And he who would take into his service a maid may do so woth propriety] .
The original sentence in arabic is : [ man ittakhadha bikran li khidmatih la ba'sa 'alayh]
"Bikra" means "virgin" in arabic and not "maid" and "la ba'sa 'alayh" means "it would be permissible for him" .
Those the true translation is : he who takes a virgin to serve him it would be permissible for him] .
Also , in one of his tablets , Baha'u'llah refers to the Bab's order of "beheading" all non Babis , This have been translated as "Shedding Blood" in the official Baha'i translation .
What kind of translation is this ? Don't you think it's some kind of distortion ?
As you know, Bahaullah appointed Abdulbaha as the infallible interpreter of His verses. So, the Bahais understand the Writings of Bahaullah through the explanations that Abdulbaha provided.
As regards to your question that, what is intended by the verse which talks about Maid or Virgin, my suggestion is to refer and see if Abdulbaha explained it. Usually at the end of Aqdas, the verses are explained in more details.
As regards to Translation of 'Behead' or bloodshed, I don't think it makes much difference. Bahaullah abrogated Holy War anyways. So, beheading or bloodshed are both abrogated.
But if your purpose is to show that, the Bab'i Laws permitted beheading others, or holy war, it is outwardly true as I remember, however, the Bab also put impossible conditions on His Laws, so, practically speaking, such Laws could not be practised by anyone.
To understand, why the Bab, revealed such harsh laws, but He did not allow to practically be used, we need to know that, based on false understandings of some of His followers regarding Qaim, they thought the Qaim would be a bloodthirsty Person. So, the Bab apparently revealed such harsh laws, so, as to satisfy the expectations of the people of His time, but on the other hand, He put certain impossible conditions on them, so that in practise they could not used really.

Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 04-29-2017 at 08:20 PM.
 
Old 04-29-2017, 08:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvital View Post
Well , hy everybody .

What kind of translation is this ? Don't you think it's some kind of distortion ?
Hi to you. I hope you are well and happy and your search for accuracy is well rewarded.

With the Baha'i Writings we were gifted by Gods Covernant with two of the best translators available.

It is they that set the standard to which must be matched. Provisional translations were allowed untill this high standard would be applied to those same texts.

What a bounty for the future that the intent of the Messengers will not suffer through incorrect translations.

Regards Tony
 
Old 04-30-2017, 05:41 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribe View Post
I am 100% positive that "maid" is an archaic way to say "virgin." My dictionary says so. You may disagree with its use, but it is not a complete distortion.

Since you are so fluent in Arabic, perhaps you could elucidate whether, in Arabic, it is always assumed that the only use for a female virgin is for sex. That seems to be what you are implying, no? I plead genuine ignorance when I ask: Could there be no other connotation? Perhaps the English translation of the Aqdas relied on other connotations, and the use of the twofold meaning of "maid" would more accurately convey the true meaning than your preferred translation. After all, the term "virgin" implies sexual purity, and it is unquestionably possible to have a virgin present without a violation of that purity...
My understanding of that verse from the Akitas-I-Aqdas is that it applies to hiring a female domestic servant or employee, and to do so "with propriety" means that there is no sexual relationship implied or permitted. In other words it makes clear that the previous custom in Islam when a man was permitted to have a sexual relationship with a female servant is explicitly prohibited.
 
Old 04-30-2017, 05:52 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
As you know, Bahaullah appointed Abdulbaha as the infallible interpreter of His verses. So, the Bahais understand the Writings of Bahaullah through the explanations that Abdulbaha provided.
As regards to your question that, what is intended by the verse which talks about Maid or Virgin, my suggestion is to refer and see if Abdulbaha explained it. Usually at the end of Aqdas, the verses are explained in more details.
As regards to Translation of 'Behead' or bloodshed, I don't think it makes much difference. Bahaullah abrogated Holy War anyways. So, beheading or bloodshed are both abrogated.
But if your purpose is to show that, the Bab'i Laws permitted beheading others, or holy war, it is outwardly true as I remember, however, the Bab also put impossible conditions on His Laws, so, practically speaking, such Laws could not be practised by anyone.
To understand, why the Bab, revealed such harsh laws, but He did not allow to practically be used, we need to know that, based on false understandings of some of His followers regarding Qaim, they thought the Qaim would be a bloodthirsty Person. So, the Bab apparently revealed such harsh laws, so, as to satisfy the expectations of the people of His time, but on the other hand, He put certain impossible conditions on them, so that in practise they could not used really.
I agree with your point here. Furthermore, we should understand that in all of the Bab's writings He says that "Him Who God shall make manifest" will take precedence over the Bab's own revelation. When that Manifestation occurred through Baha'u'llah all of the laws of the Bayan were abrogated except what God chose to make part of the new Revelation. The Bab is an independent Manifestation of God with a complete Revelation, but one which God chose to make last for only 19 years, until the Proclamation of The Baha'i Dispensation.
 
Old 04-30-2017, 06:05 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcc View Post
My understanding of that verse from the Akitas-I-Aqdas is that it applies to hiring a female domestic servant or employee, and to do so "with propriety" means that there is no sexual relationship implied or permitted. In other words it makes clear that the previous custom in Islam when a man was permitted to have a sexual relationship with a female servant is explicitly prohibited.
I understood it in the same way as you are suggesting. In the Islamic Sharia, a man was allowed to have sexual relationship with his concubine (specifically the widows of the enemy after war)

Last edited by arcane; 04-30-2017 at 12:03 PM.
 
Old 04-30-2017, 10:22 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvital View Post
First , this is the 1992 official tranlsation (a holy book translated after 120 years ...) so it's not too old ... "Maid" usually means a "female servant" . Instead , the one that means "virgin" is "maiden"
Secondly , does "shedding of blood" used to mean "Cutting heads" or what ?
First, on your English skills:

Maid or Maiden is often synonymous with virgin. Even in common parlance. It's not VERY common usage, but it is common enough that it is used in modern media without need to clarify the term, because it's generally common knowledge that every native-born English speaker knows that the words main the same thing. Ever read or watch Game of Thrones?? There is a character on that show, Sansa Stark, a noblewoman who repeatedly refers to herself as a maid. And not a single person who either reads the books or watches the show seems to think she's calling herself a servant.

Then, on your Arabic skills:

"Bikra" can also mean "young woman". At least, this is my knowledge on the subject. And my Arabic skills are not good, nor conversational, but you yourself don't speak the language, so I'm trusting what I know on the subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvital View Post
"The unbelievers and the faithless have set their minds on four things: first, the shedding of blood; second, the burning of books; third, the shunning of the followers of other religions; fourth, the extermination of other communities and groups . Now however, through the strengthening grace and potency of the Word of God these four barriers have been demolished, these clear injunctions have been obliterated from the Tablet and brutal dispositions have been transmuted into spiritual attributes. "
What I find most odd about your statements in this: What on earth leads you to believe that the phrase "The unbelievers and the faithless" leads you to believe that it is referring to the Babi, of all people?? Is there some greater context to this quote you are omitting??

But your specific translation critique here?? That instead of "beheading" a more general term for violence was used?? Question: Do you get this pedantic about the news if it, say, refers to ISIS's latest beheading as "violence"??

Translations are distortions if the meaning of the verse is changed. And it is definitely something to look out for, and the original words are important to examine, and sometimes there is no perfect translation for terminology between languages.

So has this verse's meaning been altered by this translation?? Firmly, no. The full context of the verse and all around it is a denunciation of ALL forms of violence against religious persons. If the verse was only saying that decapitation of non-believers was wrong, and other forms of killing them was right, then it would indeed be a distortion.

But this verse goes on to denounce the "extermination" of any group of people, therefore changing it from a specific term to a more general term for killing is not changing the meaning. The original meaning is that killing any group of people is bad. The meaning using the translated words is that killing any group of people is bad. Where's the distortion, here??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvital View Post
"Shedding of blood" was originally "Beheading" .
Secondly , how could I quote the Bab's wrtings if you didn't eben bothered to Translate the Holy Book of you Prophet ? ( only "gleanings" from his writings" )
Yes, that is quite an annoyance. But if you don't speak Arabic yourself, if your not able to read the Arabic Bayan, I'm not sure why you think you're qualified to critique a translation from Arabic into English by someone who spoke both languages??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvital View Post
Thirdly , if it is forbidden in the Bayan , then why Baha'u'llah mentionned it in his tablet than abrogated it ?
Every rule is mentioned that applies to a different age. Jesus re-stated that murder was wrong, and even elaborated on that subject, even though Moses had already done so.

If past messengers have said something is wrong, and people still do it, why wouldn't a current prophet re-state that thing?? Heck, that's pretty much the entire biblical cycle of Judges!! How many times have prophets in the cycle of Abrahamic Faiths needed to restate the tenet of monotheism??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvital View Post
Fourthly , the translation is the official 1992 Bahai translation , 120 year ms after the Book was revealed ...
Translated into a King James style. Because the translator liked the sound of the Early Modern English of that particular translation of the bible. I personally don't care too much for the style of translation myself, except when you need a reading of something to sound dramatic, but it's more a criticism of King James translators for their stylistic choices in selecting older (but far from archaic) words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvital View Post
Makatib , Egypt , vol 2 , p266
Do you have this book?? Can you link to it?? I cannot find this book through all my efforts to search, only the exact same citation to the book. Which is odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvital View Post
Doesn't make no sense , the Kitab i Aqdas was already circulating among Arabic speakig Bahais since 1890 . They translated it for western Bahais only in 1992 ! After 120 years !?
You yourself pointed out there were translations of the book before 1992. Just no official ones. Heck, just because there's no official translation released of the Bayan doesn't mean it's not out there. I have a translation of the first half of the book in English and the whole of the book in French (which I do not speak).

And sure, I would very much like them to get moving on getting an official English one out there. But things like translations take time to make... especially since, because of people like you, the people behind the official translations are probably overcautious less they translate "beheading" into "bloodshed" and cause a non-controversy over the verse despite the meaning of the verse not changing!! History has shown people to be hypersensitive to translations. Heck, in early Christianity, there was a riot over a copy of a scripture that translated a word as "ivy" instead of "gourd". So it's not surprising that an organization is slow to release translations, even if I would prefer them to be quicker about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvital View Post
Maybe because the "taking of a virgin" is against the Baha'i principle of "Equality of sexes" ?
What on earth makes you think that the act marrying a virgin is in any way sexist??

Last edited by Walrus; 04-30-2017 at 10:25 AM.
 
Old 04-30-2017, 02:06 PM   #18
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The French translation is interesting :

Quote:
Et celui qui prend une femme non mariée ŕ son service, peut le faire avec bienséance.
And him who employs an unmarried woman at his service can do it without infringing propriety.
 
Old 04-30-2017, 02:10 PM   #19
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Greetings
First , about the "maid" thing , the official Bahai translation changed "virgin" to "maid" . Let's take for exemple a normal english speaking person , by reading the word "maid" , it will come to his mind that it just means "servant" . Most modern english speakers know the word "maid" as "female servant" . The word that is more correct to use is "maiden" witch means "virgin" .
[quote]Then, on your Arabic skills:

"Bikra" can also mean "young woman". At least, this is my knowledge on the subject. And my Arabic skills are not good, nor conversational, but you yourself don't speak the language, so I'm trusting what I know on the subject.[\quote]
My mother tongue is Arabic and I even speak two Arabic dialects ( my country's dialect and another one) and memorised many Surahs of the Quran . In arabic dictionaries . Bikra (بكر ) means a "virgin" so the correct translation of the word is either "virgin" itself or "maiden" . "Maid is more used to denote a "female servant" .
Quote:
statements in this: What on earth leads you to believe that the phrase "The unbelievers and the faithless" leads you to believe that it is referring to the Babi, of all people?? Is there some greater context to this quote you are omitting??

But your specific translation critique here?? That instead of "beheading" a more general term for violence was used?? Question: Do you get this pedantic about the news if it, say, refers to ISIS's latest beheading as "violence"??
These are clearly Babis laws , here are some verses from the Persian Bayan ( got a french translation of it )
Persian bayan , unity 5 , chap 5 : it's about taking the propreties of non babis until they become babis
Persian Bayan , unity 6 , chap 6 : destroying non babi books
Persian Bayan , unity 7 , chap 16 : kill all non babis
Arabic Bayan , unity 6 , chap 6 : destroy all non babis books
Btw , the Arabic Bayan is written in a incomprehensible arabic style . Didn't understand much of it .
Quote:
you have this book?? Can you link to it?? I cannot find this book through all my efforts to search, only the exact same citation to the book. Which is odd.
The book exists , it's known by the name of "writings of Abdul Baha" , there are many volumes . see : English Translation of Letters of Abdul Baha - Baha'i Library Forum
Thanks !!!
 
Old 04-30-2017, 02:36 PM   #20
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Persian Bayan , unity 7 , chap 16 : kill all non babis
False. There is nothing in that part of the Bayan that allows or encourages murder. On the contrary, murder and death penalty are forbidden in the Bayan.

EDIT : Also, the French translation gets it : it's about a married man being allowed to employ unmarried women. What is the issue ? There is none AFAIK.
 
Old 04-30-2017, 05:03 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by GoaForce View Post
The French translation is interesting :



And him who employs an unmarried woman at his service can do it without infringing propriety.
Yes, that makes sense. Because in Persian culture, people often understand 'virgin' to mean 'unmarried'. Specially in older times.
 
Old 05-03-2017, 03:43 PM   #22
Jcc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth View Post
Yes, that makes sense. Because in Persian culture, people often understand 'virgin' to mean 'unmarried'. Specially in older times.
I think you are correct that there is an implication that the female servant in question is not married, but whether she is a virgin or not is nobody's concern. Any way, to me that misses the central point which is to declare that the employment relationship is treated with propriety, which means the employer must not have any sexual relationship with her. The same is true if she happens to be married to someone.

Of course it must be understood that it is an employment for pay because slavery is also forbidden!
 
Old 05-17-2017, 02:33 AM   #23
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Greetings Ldvital,

Shoghi Effendi undertook his degree at Balliol College in Oxford, England. It was here where he began to master the English language for use with his translations. His use of the English language was considered so adept that at one point he was independently regarded as being one of the top three writers of the English language in the world. You can read more about Balliol College and some of its former students here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balliol_College,_Oxford

According to the Oxford Dictionary the origin of the word maid and maiden stems from the German word Mädchen. In Old English this was mćgden and latter it was Anglicised to maid and maiden. Maid and maiden are polite terms for a female still in her maidenhood. This is why unmarried females would be referred to as a maid or maiden rather than a virgin. Common folk songs have often used sexual metaphor within their lyrics and while modern terms are different from what they were in the past, you can witness this by carefully listening to the lyrics of some Old English folk songs. To help demonstrate this for you here is a trio rendition of Early One Morning (a song that was adapted from earlier renditions known by the titles of The Lamenting Maid and The Forsaken Lover) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g4WrYZfdgnU

Shoghi Effendi modelled English Bahá'í translations in the style used within the King James Bible. This is why Bahá'í Writings that have been translated into the English language share a very similar syntax with Anglican Christianity. One of the reasons why the Guardian did this was to help protect the Bahá'í Writings from those that might attempt to employ linguistic distortion. So to really answer your question you need to pose it to Anglicans, because the King James Bible was the first religious work to employ the word maid and maiden for virgin in the English language. Here is a recognised source that will help to demonstrate this point Maid; Maiden Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

Do appreciate that the English language uses around a quarter of a million words. As research has shown that the average person only has a vocabulary of around eight thousand words, hopefully you might appreciate why Shoghi Effendi has advised readers to always employ a dictionary when reading the Bahá'í Writings, even when reading translations.

Hopefully you might now come to appreciate that the translations of the Bahá'í Writings are not only modelled on Arabic and Persian, but also within the unique cultural and religious context of languages themselves. While this can make some issues appear confusing, this approach is necessary in order to unify peoples inline with their linguistic perceptions because we think relative to our language. So in a manner of speaking the promotion of unity is more important than linguistic accuracy because in reality some words in some languages cannot be translated into others because the linguistic concept simply does not exist. One example of this in the English language is the word love. Despite having over a quarter of a million words, the English language only has but one word for love, love itself. This can make its use rather meaningless and insincere because one can love an inanimate object just like a human being. To help remedy this spiritually linguistic vacuum, Shoghi Effendi employed adjectives before the word love in his English translations to help grade the term love into different intensities. The most powerful form that he employed was unconditional love. When you express the word love with specific adjectives it completely revolutionises the context and meaning, along with being much more sincere. Unfortunately the English language can be very cold and grey when expressing human affection without the application of adjectives.

Over time Bahá'ís naturally learn to acquire a new linguistic perspective of the world, even if they are not multilingual. Such is the power of the Bahá'í Writings in their Arabic and Persian context being incorporated into native linguistic values around the world. So the Bahá'í Faith is as much a linguistic transformation as it is a religious one too.

Earth
 
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