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Old 09-04-2017, 11:59 AM   #1
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The Ever Changing Gods

It's been decades since watching, Heritage: Civilization and the Jews. Which is narrated by the great scholar/historian Abba Eban.

In the first chapter, we see multiple Deities and other characters. We also see each village had it's own God protector. Then we see an end to all the common Deities in one people. Eventually we see the nation destroyed and the cause of it was what they at one time thought was their 'peoples' God used other tribes outside their nation to bring them down. Due to the people failed to abide by the Covenant between them and what they assumed was the God of their people. When the destruction was completed it was assumed by them that God was a Universal God over all people and all creation. They were the only ones who thought that way at the time.

So we see humanity appears to continually see God as an evolving idea.

So, I ask, has anyone else considered that perhaps in 2,000 years, mankind will have a completely different concept of God, perhaps due to what will have been learned through the study of quantum physic, which in my mind is a sort of study of Creation.
 
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Old 09-04-2017, 03:27 PM   #2
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I was just reading Exodus, and it struck me how God was represented as Being in the clouds that could come down and show Himself to Moses, that manifested Himself with thunder and lightning on top of the mountain (kind of like Thor, i suppose), and was vengeful, and for some unexplained reason chose the Israelites to be the only faithful people even though they were not faithful much of the time. God at that time still accepted animal sacrifices with blood running down the sides of the altar.

Somehow, by the time of Christ, that view of God was dramatically transformed, although fundamentalist Christians don't see the transformation, but they see redemption in Christ for the faithful. Christ explained that the old view of God was that of a child, and that when we reach manhood we "put away childish things".

It's hard to characterize the understanding of God prior to Moses, because I think that the descriptions in Genesis are a collection of oral and written traditions that were edited during the dispensation of Moses (some think the final form appeared after the Babylonian exile). We believe that Abraham taught Monotheism, but we have no record of the specific teachings, rites or practices of Abraham, except through the filter of the authors of the Torah, and somewhat different accounts that appear in the Qur'an. Likewise the earlier prophets such as Noah.

The earliest written records from various cultures describe multiple Gods and often a greatest and most powerful God. Later interpretations such as that of modern Hinduism would say that they are all aspects of One God, but perhaps that was the ancient understanding also. Some cultures without a written history, such as the natives of North America believe in a single Great Spirit. We have no way of knowing how long ago those beliefs originated, their roots could go back thousands of years.

Last edited by Jcc; 09-04-2017 at 03:55 PM.
 
Old 09-04-2017, 03:50 PM   #3
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I was just reading Exodus, and it struck me how God was represented as Being in the clouds that could come down and show Himself to Moses, that manifested Himself with thunder and lightning on top of the mountain (kind of like Thor, i suppose), and was vengeful, and for some unexplained reason chose the Israelites to be the only faithful people even though they were not faithful much of the time. God at that time still accepted animal sacrifices with blood running down the sides of the altar.

Somehow, by the time of Christ, that view of God was dramatically transformed, although fundamentalist Christians don't see the transformation, but they see redemption in Christ for the faithful. Christ explained that the old view of God was that of a child, and that when we reach manhood we "put away childish things".

It's hard to characterize the understanding of God prior to Moses, because I think that the descriptions in Genesis are a collection of oral and written traditions that were edited during the dispensation of Moses (some think the final form appeared after the Babylonian exile). We believe that Abraham taught Monotheism, but we have no record of the specific teachings, rites or practices of Abraham, except through the filter of the authors of the Torah.
As a white child raised in Northern Indiana in the 1960's, I always felt that we white people (children) were given the idea that God was a white man with flowing long white head hair and beard in white robe. Who also lived surrounded by clouds! LOL But also God was Jesus and the Holy Spirit (whatever that means.) Most of Christianity, when questioned about what does that mean, was answered with double speak, or Jive, whatever works and then they looked at you like they clearly explained everything!

Currently, I use what I've learned from layman's understanding of Quantum Physic to explain what we are composed of, 'waves', that what we see as a solid realm trapped in time that mathematically time doesn't exist and neither does the universe as our senses see it and I use Anita Moore's book to shed light on conditions after death, I know, I know, but it won't hurt me. I suppose because we all emotionally need to feel we understand, even when its obvious we don't!
 
Old 09-04-2017, 04:25 PM   #4
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I do think evangelical Christianity is a modern abberation and won't last long. I also think mainline Protestantism will die a slow death.
The future for Reform Judaism also doesn't look good, even though I like them.
Things will shift and change. The puritans aren't around anymore. Over large enough times entire religions will rise and fall (like Zoroastrianism). The thing about being born into a religion is you don't see the bias and those beliefs are conditioned. I always thought it odd that where you born and into what family decided most people's opinions about core philosophical questions rather than reason.
 
Old 09-04-2017, 05:03 PM   #5
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I do think evangelical Christianity is a modern abberation and won't last long. I also think mainline Protestantism will die a slow death.
The future for Reform Judaism also doesn't look good, even though I like them.
Things will shift and change. The puritans aren't around anymore. Over large enough times entire religions will rise and fall (like Zoroastrianism). The thing about being born into a religion is you don't see the bias and those beliefs are conditioned. I always thought it odd that where you born and into what family decided most people's opinions about core philosophical questions rather than reason.
Well of course! Within the next two thousand years most will accept the Baha'i Faith and leave the older Teachings!
 
Old 09-04-2017, 05:59 PM   #6
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Well of course! Within the next two thousand years most will accept the Baha'i Faith and leave the older Teachings!
I was talking to a theology buddy of mine about this. Originally I told him I really liked Baha'i teachings but I wasn't sure about all the talk of teaching unity and peace. I was too pessimistic (and full of my own prideful knowledge).
Today I messaged him that I was becoming Baha'i. He asked what had changed and I said that Jesus never said "Blessed are cynical and jaded, for they will..." (sermon on the mount reference). I've been more aware of my own cynicism and prideful clinging. If God wants to unite us, then He will.
 
Old 09-04-2017, 06:03 PM   #7
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I do think evangelical Christianity is a modern abberation and won't last long. I also think mainline Protestantism will die a slow death.
The future for Reform Judaism also doesn't look good, even though I like them.
Things will shift and change. The puritans aren't around anymore. Over large enough times entire religions will rise and fall (like Zoroastrianism). The thing about being born into a religion is you don't see the bias and those beliefs are conditioned. I always thought it odd that where you born and into what family decided most people's opinions about core philosophical questions rather than reason.
Though man's understsndings, or rather, the limit there of does change; GOD does not change. The will of GOD towards creation doesn't change either. Zorothustrianism contains much truth, and as such is not dead any more than the true believer is ever dead.

All existence is of GOD. Life is of GOD. One doesn't need any particular division of faith in GOD to be holy. One declaring any faithful people as dead or soon to be so, or even hoping for such, is an obvious sign of their own misdirection.

The Torah too holds exponential amounts of truth for those with a spiritual mindset.
 
Old 09-04-2017, 06:10 PM   #8
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Though man's understsndings, or rather, the limit there of does change; GOD does not change. The will of GOD towards creation doesn't change either. Zorothustrianism contains much truth, and as such is not dead any more than the true believer is ever dead.

All existence is of GOD. Life is of GOD. One doesn't need any particular division of faith in GOD to be holy. One declaring any faithful people as dead or soon to be so, or even hoping for such, is an obvious sign of their own misdirection.

The Torah too holds exponential amounts of truth for those with a spiritual mindset.
Thank you for reminding me not to use "dead or dying" too flippantly when referring to someone's path to the divine. It's okay that some paths stop being used there will be others in its place. As much as I can't stand the doctrines of certain paths, like evangelical Christianity, there are many good people who belong to those churches. In fact the vast majority of people don't think in any depth about their churches theological views. Yet they still experience God and are hopefully more compassionate than they would be otherwise.

You're challenging me to let go of the sin of wanting to be "right"!
 
Old 09-04-2017, 06:21 PM   #9
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Thank you for reminding me not to use "dead or dying" too flippantly when referring to someone's path to the divine. It's okay that some paths stop being used there will be others in its place. As much as I can't stand the doctrines of certain paths, like evangelical Christianity, there are many good people who belong to those churches. In fact the vast majority of people don't think in any depth about their churches theological views. Yet they still experience God and are hopefully more compassionate than they would be otherwise.

You're challenging me to let go of the sin of wanting to be "right"!
Let me not call you wrong; every man made religion has supposed practitioners who are actually fraudulent.

It is for us to bring the faithful together in one accord; it is not for us to make needless divisions along lines drawn by men.

peace friend
 
Old 09-04-2017, 06:24 PM   #10
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Thank you for reminding me not to use "dead or dying" too flippantly when referring to someone's path to the divine. It's okay that some paths stop being used there will be others in its place. As much as I can't stand the doctrines of certain paths, like evangelical Christianity, there are many good people who belong to those churches. In fact the vast majority of people don't think in any depth about their churches theological views. Yet they still experience God and are hopefully more compassionate than they would be otherwise.

You're challenging me to let go of the sin of wanting to be "right"!
Would you explain "evangelical christians" for me in your words?
 
Old 09-04-2017, 06:56 PM   #11
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it's a admittedly a broad term. I suppose evangelicals say the emphasis of Christian faith is on being "saved" or accepting Jesus as ones savior. The focus on the Christan life is justification (being see as worthy by God by substitutionary sacrifice of Christ). They tend to see salvation as a one time occurrence. They also believe you are saved by faith alone and faith often comes down to intellectual belief.
Deidrich Bonhoffer calls this view "cheap grace". It doesn't involve any real self denial or following of Christ. It also allows for accommodation with culture, which is funny because evangelicals always talk about culture war (abortion, Christmas) but rarely do much about in the inherient injustices of capitalism or racial inequality or materialism or individualism.
I'm Baha'i now so I wonder if I just leave all these Christian theological squabbling alone. I don't know.

Last edited by MysticMonist; 09-04-2017 at 07:01 PM.
 
Old 09-04-2017, 07:38 PM   #12
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it's a admittedly a broad term. I suppose evangelicals say the emphasis of Christian faith is on being "saved" or accepting Jesus as ones savior. The focus on the Christan life is justification (being see as worthy by God by substitutionary sacrifice of Christ). They tend to see salvation as a one time occurrence. They also believe you are saved by faith alone and faith often comes down to intellectual belief.
Deidrich Bonhoffer calls this view "cheap grace". It doesn't involve any real self denial or following of Christ. It also allows for accommodation with culture, which is funny because evangelicals always talk about culture war (abortion, Christmas) but rarely do much about in the inherient injustices of capitalism or racial inequality or materialism or individualism.
I'm Baha'i now so I wonder if I just leave all these Christian theological squabbling alone. I don't know.
Faith is effectual and causal to works pleasing to GOD, to the glorying of GOD. Works do not bring about salvation, but are a sign of such.

I ask that you consider attempting to not wash yourself of any believer, giving up hope or care for their sake. I would hope that you find some manner to bring truth pertinent to their life to them, without degrading their faith.
 
Old 09-05-2017, 03:11 AM   #13
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I was talking to a theology buddy of mine about this. Originally I told him I really liked Baha'i teachings but I wasn't sure about all the talk of teaching unity and peace. I was too pessimistic (and full of my own prideful knowledge).
Today I messaged him that I was becoming Baha'i. He asked what had changed and I said that Jesus never said "Blessed are cynical and jaded, for they will..." (sermon on the mount reference). I've been more aware of my own cynicism and prideful clinging. If God wants to unite us, then He will.
Hi MysticMonist;
If I remember correctly Unity and Universal peace is a joint project, once humanity (by that time Baha'ullah will be a distant memory probably) advances enough to do the heavy lifting all on their own, I think called the minor peace than the source of Creation will bring on the Great peace. (and someone jump in here, isn't that vaguely similar to Judaism and their Covenent with the source of creation?)
 
Old 09-05-2017, 03:19 AM   #14
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Thank you for reminding me not to use "dead or dying" too flippantly when referring to someone's path to the divine. It's okay that some paths stop being used there will be others in its place. As much as I can't stand the doctrines of certain paths, like evangelical Christianity, there are many good people who belong to those churches. In fact the vast majority of people don't think in any depth about their churches theological views. Yet they still experience God and are hopefully more compassionate than they would be otherwise.

You're challenging me to let go of the sin of wanting to be "right"!
Hi MysticMonist;
Also remember that according to the Teachings given to Baha'ullah by the source of creation say, That all and this includes Baha'i, become diluted by mankind, (of which I some small ways has already happened.) So today followers of the ancient Teaching's aren't getting pure Teachings but some Teachings have been abrogated and some are additional junk tossed in by men after the Manifestation passed on. So they certainly need patience, not unlike most in USA who swell with pride in their Nation but are totally unaware of the USA War Economy and it's terrible evil. They were taught young and fear rocking the boat or bury their heads in the sand.
 
Old 09-05-2017, 03:35 AM   #15
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Hi MysticMonist;
If I remember correctly Unity and Universal peace is a joint project, once humanity (by that time Baha'ullah will be a distant memory probably) advances enough to do the heavy lifting all on their own, I think called the minor peace than the source of Creation will bring on the Great peace. (and someone jump in here, isn't that vaguely similar to Judaism and their Covenent with the source of creation?)
Yes. In Judaism there is a hoped for messianic age. Orthodox Jews believe that the messiah will come and bring it about. It won't be by human effort. In Hassidic Orthodox Judaism, by doing good deeds and following the commandments we hasten the coming of the messiah. But it's never mankind who brings this unity, only God alone. That's what I meant when I said I was pessimistic, I have trouble seeing mankind reaching peace or unity without a messiah and creatiion of a new heaven and new earth.
Liberal Jews (like some reform) do believe mankind can bring about a messianic age and believe that's the role of Judaism to advance social causes and foster peace and justice. To them the messiah is just figurative and Jews as a whole will be the messiah to the world.

I definitely see things closer to the Orthodox Jews. But studying Bahá'u'llá has chipped away at my previous understandings.

What popsthebuilder said had a strong impact on me. Especially this morning during the words of our prayers. I'll post of that later. So pops, thank you for challenging me on my comments on evangelicals.
 
Old 09-05-2017, 03:58 AM   #16
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Yes. In Judaism there is a hoped for messianic age. Orthodox Jews believe that the messiah will come and bring it about. It won't be by human effort. In Hassidic Orthodox Judaism, by doing good deeds and following the commandments we hasten the coming of the messiah. But it's never mankind who brings this unity, only God alone. That's what I meant when I said I was pessimistic, I have trouble seeing mankind reaching peace or unity without a messiah and creatiion of a new heaven and new earth.
Liberal Jews (like some reform) do believe mankind can bring about a messianic age and believe that's the role of Judaism to advance social causes and foster peace and justice. To them the messiah is just figurative and Jews as a whole will be the messiah to the world.

I definitely see things closer to the Orthodox Jews. But studying Bahá'u'llá has chipped away at my previous understandings.

What popsthebuilder said had a strong impact on me. Especially this morning during the words of our prayers. I'll post of that later. So pops, thank you for challenging me on my comments on evangelicals.
Witnessing someone who actually hears and too considers anothers words is more reward than I deserve. You are most welcome friend.

peace
 
Old 09-05-2017, 04:15 AM   #17
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Witnessing someone who actually hears and too considers anothers words is more reward than I deserve. You are most welcome friend.

peace
Check out this thread I wrote about my experience this morning:
Reflection on the medium obligatory prayer
Thanks!
 
Old 09-05-2017, 04:31 AM   #18
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Yes. In Judaism there is a hoped for messianic age. Orthodox Jews believe that the messiah will come and bring it about. It won't be by human effort. In Hassidic Orthodox Judaism, by doing good deeds and following the commandments we hasten the coming of the messiah. But it's never mankind who brings this unity, only God alone. That's what I meant when I said I was pessimistic, I have trouble seeing mankind reaching peace or unity without a messiah and creatiion of a new heaven and new earth.
Liberal Jews (like some reform) do believe mankind can bring about a messianic age and believe that's the role of Judaism to advance social causes and foster peace and justice. To them the messiah is just figurative and Jews as a whole will be the messiah to the world.

I definitely see things closer to the Orthodox Jews. But studying Bahá'u'llá has chipped away at my previous understandings.

What popsthebuilder said had a strong impact on me. Especially this morning during the words of our prayers. I'll post of that later. So pops, thank you for challenging me on my comments on evangelicals.
We allow for profit sensationalism media to bring us down, view this on youtube about the statistic prove, over all, humanity is better than ever!
 
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