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Old 09-20-2017, 11:32 PM   #1
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Is this the wrath of God?

Has anybody noticed all the natural disasters that have been taking place, hurricanes and earthquakes?

This is unprecedented.... I can hardly stand to watch the news, it hurts so bad to see these people suffering.

I spend almost all my free time posting on forums to nonbelievers and so the subject of suffering comes up a lot... Many nonbelievers cannot understand how an omnipotent God would allow so much suffering in the world... I have to admit I am wondering too, but I decided to post that here instead of there because I do not want to undercut any progress I have been making on those forums by ranking on God.

WHY does an omnipotent and benevolent God allow so much suffering? Of course I know the usual Baha’i answers but I am looking for something besides what is in the Writings... Somehow, that just does not seem to cut it anymore.
 
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Old 09-21-2017, 03:48 AM   #2
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We have been told that these times will be difficult to live in.

"O Son of Man! My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy. Hasten thereunto that thou mayest become an eternal light and an immortal spirit. This is My command unto thee, do thou observe it. (The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, #51 from the Arabic)

424. The People of Bahá Are Assured of Divine Guidance
"…the Pen of the Centre of the Covenant has repeatedly prophesied the intolerable calamities which must beset this wayward humanity ere it heeds the life-giving Teachings of Bahá’u’lláh.

'Chaos and confusion are daily increasing in the world. They will attain such intensity as to render the frame of mankind unable to bear them. Then will men be awakened and become aware that religion is the impregnable stronghold and the manifest light of the world, and its laws, exhortations and teachings the source of life on earth.'

"Every discerning eye clearly sees that the early stages of this chaos have daily manifestations affecting the structure of human society; its destructive forces are uprooting time-honoured institutions which were a haven and refuge for the inhabitants of the earth in bygone days and centuries, and around which revolved all human affairs. The same destructive forces are also deranging the political, economic, scientific, literary, and moral equilibrium of the world and are destroying the fairest fruits of the present civilization. Political machinations of those in authority have placed the seal of obsolescence upon the root-principles of the world's order. Greed and passion, deceit, hypocrisy, tyranny, and pride are dominating features afflicting human relations. Discoveries and inventions, which are the fruit of scientific and technological advancements, have become the means and tools of mass extermination and destruction and are in the hands of the ungodly. Even music, art, and literature, which are to represent and inspire the noblest sentiments and highest aspirations and should be a source of comfort and tranquility for troubled souls, have strayed from the straight path and are now the mirrors of the soiled hearts of this confused, unprincipled and disordered age. Perversions such as these shall result in the ordeals which have been prophesied by the Blessed Beauty in the following words: 'Every day a new calamity will seize the earth and a fresh tormenting trial will appear'. 'The day is approaching when its (civilization's) flame will devour the cities.'

"In such an afflicted time, when mankind is bewildered and the wisest of men are perplexed as to the remedy, the people of Bahá, who have confidence in His unfailing grace and divine guidance, are assured that each of these tormenting trials has a cause, a purpose, and a definite result, and all are essential instruments for the establishment of the immutable Will of God on earth. In other words, on the one hand humanity is struck by the scourge of His chastisement which will inevitably bring together the scattered and vanquished tribes of the earth; and on the other, the weak few whom He has nurtured under the protection of His loving guidance are, in this formative age and period of transition, continuing to build amidst these tumultuous waves an impregnable stronghold which will be the sole remaining refuge for those lost multitudes. Therefore, the dear friends of God who have such a broad and clear vision before them are not perturbed by such events, nor are they panic-stricken by such thundering sounds, nor will they face such convulsions with fear and trepidation, nor will they be deterred, even for a moment, from fulfilling their sacred responsibilities.

"One of their sacred responsibilities is to exemplify in their lives those attributes which are acceptable at His Sacred Threshold."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the Iranian believers resident in various countries throughout the world, February 10, 1980)

We have also been informed we as Baha'is are partly responsible for this as we did not see the urgency of yhe required change.

Thus I ask why do we still not see the urgency? God has told us what is going to unfold and that there is a chance of lessening the retribution to come.

425. If Bahá’ís Fail They Are Partly Responsible for Agony of Mankind
"There is so much suffering, such a great and desperate need for a true remedy and the Bahá’ís should realize their sacred obligation is to deliver the Message to their fellowmen at once, and on as large a scale as possible. If they fail to do so, they are really partly responsible for prolonging the agony of humanity."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 18, 1943)

More thoughts - https://bahai.works/Lights_of_Guidan...ies_and_Crisis

Regards Tony
 
Old 09-21-2017, 04:43 AM   #3
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Calamities comes from Satan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
Has anybody noticed all the natural disasters that have been taking place, hurricanes and earthquakes?

This is unprecedented.... I can hardly stand to watch the news, it hurts so bad to see these people suffering.

I spend almost all my free time posting on forums to nonbelievers and so the subject of suffering comes up a lot... Many nonbelievers cannot understand how an omnipotent God would allow so much suffering in the world... I have to admit I am wondering too, but I decided to post that here instead of there because I do not want to undercut any progress I have been making on those forums by ranking on God.

WHY does an omnipotent and benevolent God allow so much suffering? Of course I know the usual Baha’i answers but I am looking for something besides what is in the Writings... Somehow, that just does not seem to cut it anymore.
I'm nazarethan Baha'i faith
"all calamities as earthquakes and storms, draughts and floods as cause by evil spirits not by God, God allows to that because people reject Him and his commandments "
 
Old 09-21-2017, 05:04 AM   #4
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One thing I would say is, how do the current disasters/suffering compare to history?

So, compared to the Black Death, to all the violence and war that ravaged humanity since the dawn of civilization (any detailed account of the Mongol invasions are enough to send a chill through the spine), to just earthly life before medical and technological advances and the crippling social customs that existed in historical societies, is the current suffering worse? In terms of just natural disasters, how do these compare to the largest meteors that hit the earth and the proto-humans and animals that had to live through that, or really even the Ice Ages - and humans had to live through all that. The death toll might be higher today because humanity's population is naturally higher, but the disasters aren't necessarily the worst the Earth has experienced, though they might be getting worse compared to the last few decades due to climate change.

Perhaps we are facing worse crises today, but I'd first like to ascertain whether that really is the case or not. And of course its true that natural disaster wise we will probably face much worse if climate change isn't arrested.
 
Old 09-21-2017, 07:25 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
Has anybody noticed all the natural disasters that have been taking place, hurricanes and earthquakes?

This is unprecedented.... I can hardly stand to watch the news, it hurts so bad to see these people suffering.

I spend almost all my free time posting on forums to nonbelievers and so the subject of suffering comes up a lot... Many nonbelievers cannot understand how an omnipotent God would allow so much suffering in the world... I have to admit I am wondering too, but I decided to post that here instead of there because I do not want to undercut any progress I have been making on those forums by ranking on God.

WHY does an omnipotent and benevolent God allow so much suffering? Of course I know the usual Baha’i answers but I am looking for something besides what is in the Writings... Somehow, that just does not seem to cut it anymore.
It is for us to learn.

All suffering is for the sake of creation.

We are not to cling to the things of the material realm and physical life.

The vast majority of suffering is at the hands of man.

The natural disasters are indeed a sign of the times; yet that too, for the sake of all; that those in unbelief will come to the knowledge of GOD and how it pertains to each one's life and creation as a whole.

GOD is not slack in HIS word; all will be reconciled unto HIM. The end is not yet. All thanks is to the long suffering merciful One Creator GOD. May all turn towards GOD and hope on HIS mercy for the sake of all.
 
Old 09-21-2017, 09:09 AM   #6
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The Wrath of God? Let's see.... The Black Death killed about one-third of the population of Europe. The Mongol invaders levelled one city after the other, building pyramids from the skulls of hundreds of thousands of victims, devastating large areas in Central Asia to such an extent that they haven't recovered until today. The arrival of Europeans in America led to a death toll of about ninety per cent due to diseases, for which the natives had no immunity.

So, what we witness today cannot even be described as a divine frown.

Best

from

gnat
 
Old 09-21-2017, 09:12 AM   #7
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Natural disasters are one of the ways God give us opportunities to learn.

For example, were it not for hurricanes and droughts and massive ice melting events, we would not give enough attention to climate change.

Were it not for earthquakes we would not give enough attention to public education, better building techniques and materials, and more interest in studying geology.

Furthermore, natural disasters allow us to behave as ONE BODY, helping each other despite our nationalities, races or creeds.

The generosity I have been witnessing in Mexico City confirms that we are ONE, that true religion of love is ONE, and that the purpose of our Noble Cause is to make every human being to discover that.
 
Old 09-21-2017, 09:14 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
This is unprecedented.... I can hardly stand to watch the news, it hurts so bad to see these people suffering.
I agree with Divan here. The disaster itself not unprecedented so much as the news is unprecedented. The gift of the internet enables us to learn the events happening all around the world as they happen. This is actually one of the safest time periods in which to live, but it seems like things are growing worse and worse, since our awareness of the world's events is merely growing greater and greater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
WHY does an omnipotent and benevolent God allow so much suffering? Of course I know the usual Baha’i answers but I am looking for something besides what is in the Writings... Somehow, that just does not seem to cut it anymore.
I'll try to tread carefully here... it seems, at least elsewhere online, that when I express my opinions on the topic of suffering that people tend to react negatively and hostilely to my viewpoints.

First, important to establishing a baseline, there is a difference between pain and suffering. This should be obvious as one can suffer without being in pain or experience mild pains or aches without suffering, but I've found that conversations on the topic of suffering often get confused over these two terms, so I feel it is important to establish this upfront.

Suffering is essentially an emotional reaction to pain or sorrow. There are insects that experiences and react to pain, but lack the cognitive function to develop emotions about that pain. A beetle may receive a signal that indicates the body is taking damage, and will instinctively respond to that information, but it lacks the metacognition necessary to process that information into thoughts or opinions on what it experiencing. An insect can feel pain, but can't suffer.

From an evolutionary perspective, suffering is important. For an animal, suffering is important. It lets the species recognize that something is wrong and allows it to begin to address and correct it. This encompasses both pain based suffering, like recognizing that an arm is broken, and also more purely emotional suffering, like empathizing with the pain of another being and working to help that other individual. Overall, it helps the species survive and reproduce which is why we and many other species have evolved with the capacity to suffer.

But this also means that suffering is more of an emotional thing than a aspect of the world. It exists within ourselves and not without. To use many examples here, a hurricane can hit and destroy your house, an earthquake can cause you to break an arm, and a Mongol horde can slaughter a village, but it is your own emotions that translates these events into suffering.

Suffering being an emotion within us, however, gives us a method to end our own suffering by obtaining freedom from the control our emotions have over us. Suffering is like many emotions that we have that, in the past, have helped our species to survive, like wrath and jealousy, tendencies towards gossip and tribalism. These things are all great from the perspective of a band of early humans trying to survive as animals.

In the modern age, these things are not so valuable, and we as a species are working to abandon those emotional, ancient survival instincts like wrath and tribalism. And revelations and prophets have given us guides on how to do so.

And like the other emotions, we have persons like (possibly most notably) Gautama Buddha who provided steps to overcoming our suffering. In the Taoist traditions that are in my background overcoming suffering is referred to as "freeing the bond", which involves rolling back a dichotomous view of the world to free yourself from the emotional dichotomy of joy and sorrow, to stop viewing things in terms of "good" and "bad", but to see that the whole is unified.

Last edited by Walrus; 09-21-2017 at 09:18 AM.
 
Old 09-21-2017, 01:27 PM   #9
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Susan,

Yes, this may be the wrath of God. In retrospect the eclipse was a sign in this case. Trump is part of it, I believe. I believe that he will unleash a tragedy on this nation.

The trouble you are having with suffering, I'm convinced, is because your faith isn't strong enough. You need to strengthen your faith.
 
Old 09-21-2017, 01:45 PM   #10
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Susan,

Yes, this may be the wrath of God. In retrospect the eclipse was a sign in this case. Trump is part of it, I believe. I believe that he will unleash a tragedy on this nation.

The trouble you are having with suffering, I'm convinced, is because your faith isn't strong enough. You need to strengthen your faith.
How could strong faith diminish our compassion? It didn't work for Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi. They just learned to put their compassion into action. Abdu'l-Bahá was knighted for His humanitarian work. Whoghi Effendi himself struggled with the question of the suffering that mankind would have to go through.

gnat
 
Old 09-21-2017, 02:11 PM   #11
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Yes, this may be the wrath of God. In retrospect the eclipse was a sign in this case.
Ummm. Based on the placement of the Earth's satellites and its rotation around the sun, wouldn't the eclipse have happened regardless of who got elected president??

Just... I'm having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around how that would even work.

So does God go back in time and readjust his initial placement of the moon to cause eclipses that are perfectly timed with human actions in order to give us omens in the present??

There's an organization that has figured out when the next eclipses will be up until the year 3,000. Are they all perfectly timed to various instances of human mistakes??

If so we could start predicting human actions via the celestial bodies. The next time North Americans displease God will be around April 8th, 2024 I suppose!!

Wait, if we use our eclipse prediction powers and then make an effort to not displease God around those times, will the eclipses not happen??

I think maybe we need to not put so much stock in using World Events to divine the Will of God.

The Nahua, or Aztec, people of Central Mexico once had a period of peace... and after the peace they suddenly had a massive famine. This convinced their priests that the gods were not getting enough blood, and so they began the tradition of "Flower Wars", of going to war with nations they were peaceful with, merely to ensure the gods got the required amount of human violence they needed.

And that bloody tradition of needless wars was all due to the timing of a famine and people trying to interpret that event as the will of the divine.

Last edited by Walrus; 09-21-2017 at 02:19 PM.
 
Old 09-21-2017, 04:21 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
The Nahua, or Aztec, people of Central Mexico once had a period of peace... and after the peace they suddenly had a massive famine. This convinced their priests that the gods were not getting enough blood, and so they began the tradition of "Flower Wars", of going to war with nations they were peaceful with, merely to ensure the gods got the required amount of human violence they needed.

And that bloody tradition of needless wars was all due to the timing of a famine and people trying to interpret that event as the will of the divine.
Indeed. It's all a matter of interpretation. If they had had better guidance, they could have concluded that famine was a great reason for developing cooperation with others in order to achieve common remedies.

Quite honestly, I see many positive things in those natural disasters. The record-earthquake in Chile, for example, revealed that the building standards of that country saved thousands of lives.

gnat

Last edited by gnat; 09-21-2017 at 04:23 PM.
 
Old 09-21-2017, 04:21 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
How could strong faith diminish our compassion? It didn't work for Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi. They just learned to put their compassion into action. Abdu'l-Bahá was knighted for His humanitarian work. Whoghi Effendi himself struggled with the question of the suffering that mankind would have to go through.

gnat
Can you quote directly where shogi was struggling with the question of suffering thanks im intrested in learning more
 
Old 09-21-2017, 04:26 PM   #14
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Can you quote directly where shogi was struggling with the question of suffering thanks im intrested in learning more
Don't remember exactly where I read it - could be The Precious Pearl, but the guardian was considering the enormous suffering that people were going to go through, and he calmed himself by thinking that this was an inevitable price to be paid for future happiness.

gnat
 
Old 09-21-2017, 08:35 PM   #15
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Thanks so much everyone for your responses! I plan to respond to them individually as soon as I have time, hopefully over the weekend... Meanwhile, I just wanted to say a few things...I am going to ad lib because I have barely had any sleep for days so I am kind of loopy.

First, I am not complaining about my own suffering even though I have suffered most of my life and still do... I can handle it, at least now that I have returned to the Faith after a long absence... Moreover, it is not as bad as it used to be because I am too busy to think about myself...

It might sound as if I am emotional but it is quite the contrary... It is because I use my logical mind that suffering is so disconcerting... I just cannot understand how a loving God would allow so much suffering... Sure, as Baha’is we have some explanations, but what about everyone else? Well, granted, other religious people can also understand it to a degree even though they do not have the whole picture, but does understanding ameliorate the suffering? Not always.

Duane is right, my faith in God is weak, but my belief in Baha’u’llah is strong so that counterbalances it. But even if my faith was not weak I would still have compassion for those who suffer,and it wakens my faith to think of people suffering and being unable to understand it.... I mean most people who suffer did not do anything wrong, so why does God have to punish everyone just to get back at those who turned away from Baha’u’llah? This does not seem just... The same can be said for the Jews in the Holocaust; why all those people simply to make a point?

Sure, we know that there is a life to come that is the main act of the play, and this is just a dust heap by comparison, but I for one do not look forward to the afterlife, so that does not help me and often makes me feel worse... I surmise that when this life has been suffering one cannot envision a world that will be better than this.... And we don’t really know anything about the spiritual world so that alone is disconcerting to me...

Someone here mentioned that the reason things have only gotten worse is because the Baha’is have not done enough to spread the Faith... I might address that specifically later, but I agree it is true... As I see it, the problem is twofold; it is a failure on the part of the Baha’is to proclaim the Faith and it is the failure of those who are not receptive to it...These are interrelated because most people don’t want to spend their time proclaiming the Faith to people who are not only not at all receptive and also rude and insulting, often hurling calumnies at the Faith...

It seems like a waste of time, but my husband told me a story of a Baha’i who had been at one location for 10 years and not one person came into the Faith in all that time! As I recall the story, and someone can correct me if I am wrong, Abdu’l-Baha told him to stay at his post.

I spend all my time when not working or sleeping on forums posting to nonbelievers and the occasional Christian or Jew... I used to get many people attacking the Faith but after over three years I have noticed that has abated and it is only an occasional derogatory comment, like today from a Christian who posted me verses to correct what I said and then he said: “This should be clear enough that your guru is not qualified. In fact you guru is leading you straight to Hell.”

But besides that, it seems to fall on deaf ears so it often itoften seems like a waste of time... However, I just do what Baha’u’llah enjoined me to do anyway... I am not sociable in person so the best I can do is online, and I do have a passion for writing... Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Warn, O Salmán, the beloved of the one true God, not to view with too critical an eye the sayings and writings of men. Let them rather approach such sayings and writings in a spirit of open-mindedness and loving sympathy. Those men, however, who, in this Day, have been led to assail, in their inflammatory writings, the tenets of the Cause of God, are to be treated differently. It is incumbent upon all men, each according to his ability, to refute the arguments of those that have attacked the Faith of God. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Powerful, the Almighty. He that wisheth to promote the Cause of the one true God, let him promote it through his pen and tongue, rather than have recourse to sword or violence. We have, on a previous occasion, revealed this injunction, and We now confirm it, if ye be of them that comprehend. By the righteousness of Him Who, in this Day, crieth within the inmost heart of all created things: “God, there is none other God besides Me!” If any man were to arise to defend, in his writings, the Cause of God against its assailants, such a man, however inconsiderable his share, shall be so honored in the world to come that the Concourse on high would envy his glory. No pen can depict the loftiness of his station, neither can any tongue describe its splendor. For whosoever standeth firm and steadfast in this holy, this glorious, and exalted Revelation, such power shall be given him as to enable him to face and withstand all that is in heaven and on earth. Of this God is Himself a witness.

O ye beloved of God! Repose not yourselves on your couches, nay bestir yourselves as soon as ye recognize your Lord, the Creator, and hear of the things which have befallen Him, and hasten to His assistance. Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.”
Gleanings, pp. 329-330

It seems like Baha’u’llah was right because I feel like I have experienced this: “such power shall be given him as to enable him to face and withstand all that is in heaven and on earth.” I do not know how I keep going on such little sleep, but somehow I am able to keep going.
 
Old 09-22-2017, 12:25 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by camachoe View Post
Natural disasters are one of the ways God give us opportunities to learn.

For example, were it not for hurricanes and droughts and massive ice melting events, we would not give enough attention to climate change.

Were it not for earthquakes we would not give enough attention to public education, better building techniques and materials, and more interest in studying geology.

Furthermore, natural disasters allow us to behave as ONE BODY, helping each other despite our nationalities, races or creeds.

The generosity I have been witnessing in Mexico City confirms that we are ONE, that true religion of love is ONE, and that the purpose of our Noble Cause is to make every human being to discover that.
Good post friend

peace
 
Old 09-22-2017, 01:56 AM   #17
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natural disasters must be the result of our wrong use (or misuse) of nature. If we do not care about (let's say) what kind of harmful gasses the factories and cars release to the air, if we do not care about throwing plastic into nature, if we do not care about killing too many animals and cutting too many trees, then why should we not expect those disasters?for every breaking of the law, there is an outcome. breaking the laws of living a healthy, friendly life in nature causes damage to it, and it, in return, damages us. it's God's law. we disturb the law; it works against us.
 
Old 09-22-2017, 01:41 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by gnat View Post
How could strong faith diminish our compassion? It didn't work for Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi. They just learned to put their compassion into action. Abdu'l-Bahá was knighted for His humanitarian work. Whoghi Effendi himself struggled with the question of the suffering that mankind would have to go through.

gnat
One can have compassion without judging God. Susan has a tendency to judge God for the suffering. Also she does not look forward to the afterlife because she does not trust God.
 
Old 09-22-2017, 01:54 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Ummm. Based on the placement of the Earth's satellites and its rotation around the sun, wouldn't the eclipse have happened regardless of who got elected president??

Just... I'm having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around how that would even work.

So does God go back in time and readjust his initial placement of the moon to cause eclipses that are perfectly timed with human actions in order to give us omens in the present??

There's an organization that has figured out when the next eclipses will be up until the year 3,000. Are they all perfectly timed to various instances of human mistakes??

If so we could start predicting human actions via the celestial bodies. The next time North Americans displease God will be around April 8th, 2024 I suppose!!

Wait, if we use our eclipse prediction powers and then make an effort to not displease God around those times, will the eclipses not happen??

I think maybe we need to not put so much stock in using World Events to divine the Will of God.

The Nahua, or Aztec, people of Central Mexico once had a period of peace... and after the peace they suddenly had a massive famine. This convinced their priests that the gods were not getting enough blood, and so they began the tradition of "Flower Wars", of going to war with nations they were peaceful with, merely to ensure the gods got the required amount of human violence they needed.

And that bloody tradition of needless wars was all due to the timing of a famine and people trying to interpret that event as the will of the divine.
You're forgetting something. Doesn't Baha'u'llah say for each Manifestation of God there is a sign in the heavens? God knew we were going to elect Trump. We will have to pay for it. I know that many voted for HIIlary so they don't deserve to be punished for electing Trump. But they will be compensated by God for the tragedy that might happen. I don't know that it will happen, but it might. Many voted in Germany for Hitler and look what happened.
 
Old 09-22-2017, 01:59 PM   #20
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You're forgetting something. Doesn't Baha'u'llah say for each Manifestation of God there is a sign in the heavens?
Do you have a quote on that??

I have a quote from 'Abdu'l-Baha that claims that warns against astrology: "My meaning is not, however, that the decrees which the astrologers of former times inferred from the movements of the stars corresponded to occurrences; for the decrees of those former astrologers were forms of imagination which were originated by Egyptian, Assyrian and Chaldean priests; nay, rather, they were due to the fancies of Hindus, to the myths of the Greeks, Romans and other star worshipers. "

So with that I must wonder if trying to use heavenly movements to divine God's will isn't a big error and overstepping of bounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
Many voted in Germany for Hitler and look what happened.
I may simply be unaware, but what natural disaster or astronomical occurrence was sent to punish the German people for that action??

I fear you are erring in trying to divine God's will from the predicted movements of heavenly bodies. Not erring as badly as, say, the ancient Nahua, but an error none-the-less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane View Post
I know that many voted for HIIlary so they don't deserve to be punished for electing Trump.
Didn't the original post include the recent earthquakes?? Did you mean to imply God is punishing Mexico for Americans electing a certain president??

Sorry I just can't understand this worldview. Why would God punish America for Trump but then not send any eclipses or natural disasters to Myanmar, who are currently and openly practicing ethnic cleansing?? Certainly there are worse leaders or governments that God could unleash his wrath upon.

So Trump's actions provoke hurricanes and maybe earthquakes, but Kyaw doesn't get a single natural disaster for literal genocide??

Unfortunately the God I believe in makes a bit more sense when he does things. If God sent no Hurricane against Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia than it would follow logically that He would also send no Hurricane against Trump's America.

Last edited by Walrus; 09-22-2017 at 02:07 PM.
 
Old 09-22-2017, 02:19 PM   #21
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Do you have a quote on that??

I have a quote from 'Abdu'l-Baha that claims that warns against astrology: "My meaning is not, however, that the decrees which the astrologers of former times inferred from the movements of the stars corresponded to occurrences; for the decrees of those former astrologers were forms of imagination which were originated by Egyptian, Assyrian and Chaldean priests; nay, rather, they were due to the fancies of Hindus, to the myths of the Greeks, Romans and other star worshipers. "

So with that I must wonder if trying to use heavenly movements to divine God's will isn't a big error and overstepping of bounds.



I may simply be unaware, but what natural disaster or astronomical occurrence was sent to punish the German people for that action??

I fear you are erring in trying to divine God's will from the predicted movements of heavenly bodies. Not erring as badly as, say, the ancient Nahua, but an error none-the-less.



Didn't the original post include the recent earthquakes?? Did you mean to imply God is punishing Mexico for Americans electing a certain president??

Sorry I just can't understand this worldview. Why would God punish America for Trump but then not send any eclipses or natural disasters to Myanmar, who are currently and openly practicing ethnic cleansing?? Certainly there are worse leaders or governments that God could unleash his wrath upon.

So Trump's actions provoke hurricanes and maybe earthquakes, but Kyaw doesn't get a single natural disaster for literal genocide??

Unfortunately the God I believe in makes a bit more sense when he does things. If God sent no Hurricane against Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia than it would follow logically that He would also send no Hurricane against Trump's America.
Forget the hurricane. I am talking about what Trump might do.

And now, concerning His words: "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven." By these words it is meant that when the sun of the heavenly teachings hath been eclipsed, the stars of the divinely-established laws have fallen, and the moon of true knowledge -- the educator of mankind -- hath been obscured; when the standards of guidance and felicity have been reversed, and the morn of truth and righteousness hath sunk in night, then shall the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven. By "heaven" is meant the visible heaven, inasmuch as when the hour draweth nigh on which the Day-star of the heaven of justice shall be made manifest, and the Ark of divine guidance shall sail upon the sea of glory, a star will appear in the heaven, heralding unto its people the advent of that most great light. In like manner, in the invisible heaven a star shall be made manifest who, unto the peoples of the earth, shall act as a harbinger of the break of that true and exalted Morn. These twofold signs, in the visible and the invisible heaven, have announced the Revelation of each of the Prophets of God, as is commonly believed.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 61)

I'm surprised that you're ignorant of this. Have you not read the book of certitude?
 
Old 09-22-2017, 03:02 PM   #22
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Oh, dear Duane, you know so well what goes on in the minds of others, and you are so good at distinguishing between the right path and the wrong path.

gnat
 
Old 09-23-2017, 08:52 AM   #23
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Oh, dear Duane, you know so well what goes on in the minds of others, and you are so good at distinguishing between the right path and the wrong path.

gnat
I know Susan very well. We are best friends. I know her strengths and weaknesses. Did you not see Susan agreeing with me?
 
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